200915 Tim Walsh (master)
Sat, 10/10 9:51AM • 57:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
team, coach, rugby, players, skill, people, talking, game, coaching, sevens, play, big, tim, bit, australia, interview, women, contact, tournament, execute
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Tim Walsh
Paul Barnett 00:07
Tim Walsh Good afternoon and welcome to the Great coach's podcast. Good afternoon. Tim, how are you? Where in the world are you? And what have you been doing today?
Tim Walsh 00:18
In in Sydney, and we're on a, we're on a Tuesday and the players at the moment, we're in a we're in a lucky country, the moment the players are training sort of Monday, Wednesday and Friday, so the training free or play a free day. So had some opportunities to do so to do some admin, and then actually quite fortunate with the with the time and not well, unfortunate fortunate that I'm not overseas and traveling the world with the sevens team, but I get to spend a week with each club club team in Sydney and, and sort of look at the pliers, build relationships and do some personal development for myself say, after this, I'll be off to off to Sydney Uni to, to see how their systems and and how they operate, which is which has been a really insightful and a great experience for me.
Well, we appreciate you making a little bit of time available to us to talk about your coaching experience. And actually, before I jump into the first question, I would like to rewind a little bit because just five minutes ago, you were showing me an amazing chair in the players lounge where you could you just describe that chair for everyone who's listening and how it's used.
Yet there's it's a chatter we had designed and I contacted all of the past players past captains and and ask them to donate a jersey of theirs that had particular relevance in the inner sevens career which ultimately is within the fabric of of rugby Rugby Sevens in Australia, so they age kindly and generously donated their jersey and we got it made into this beautiful little lounge chair. And it's, it's used in the in the team meeting for whoever sort of leaves the values of the team like trainer of the day, or really does something that accentuates how we operate, gets to basically sit in that chair for the team meeting. So it's just a bit of a bit of fun, but also very reflective of, of the team's culture and in not, you know, hit the past, you know, is as a huge influence on on us and the service program, how it evolves, but how we want to keep developing and laying our own our own jersey, alright, benchmark event that's gonna sit somewhere probably on that on that chair.
Paul Barnett 02:49
So wonderful idea, I can tell you, I will be stealing that with great pride immediately and putting something similar into into my office. So great. Thank you for sharing that. Team. You've had some first hand experience of some great coaches, Ben Ryan, and he cased and of course, you and Mackenzie to name just a few. But what do you think the great coaches do differently?
Tim Walsh 03:15
Yeah, I have been very fortunate actually, whenever I ended up, I always ended up with, with a coach that ended up going coaching the country or, or another country or winning a gold medal. And I think all those interactions had a huge influence on how and how I, how I coached? And in answering that question, I think they all had they all have a vision and a most people have a vision, but the ability to execute it is what is the difference between I think a successful coach and, and a good coach. So I think everybody has the technical knowledge, like we all played the game and we study the game and, and and we love it to the technical side of things. So it's how do you move from having this this vision or this idea to actually then executing it, like in business, you have all these business ideas, but no one could not know what he but the real people can actually execute it. So they're very passionate and true and authentic to themselves. And then I have the I have the ability to manage the situation. And, and and, and adapt. So it's probably the the two key ones. Is that true to themselves. And they can situationally manage and and lead through whatever environment it it has. And that's usually derived from planning and experience.[PB1] Yeah.
Paul Barnett 04:48
Tim, when I was preparing for this interview, I read a lot about you and what the thing that kept coming through time and time again was how much you love to learn. And it's interesting in your opening you were talking about the fact that you're off to Sydney University tonight to learn how they do things. But I also read that, you know, when you're traveling, you put together a little summaries of what you've learned as you've gone to different tournaments or different countries. And I'd like to ask you, I know we've been in this period of not being able to travel it, but if we looked at the last one that you wrote, what would we see?
Tim Walsh 05:24
Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was LA LA and Vancouver was our last one just before the COVID lockdown started. And we had we had to two games one in LA one in Vancouver, both against New Zealand. And we we lost pretty much on the on the buzzer. And it was about well scenario practice, but when I call them we've coined them teabag moments. And you know, I think Eleanor Roosevelt said it said it once. The ad you know, how I use this with the girls is you don't know how strong a woman is, until, until you drop in hot water. And she's referring it to being a tea bag. So we call it like a tea bag moment. And it was trying to in those scenarios, but who's in control, like we had the ball on both time. So it's understanding who who is in control, understanding this scenario, and then how we can deliver a result. So it was by base weather was the key was the was the key learning from an onfield point of view, is it understand the the scenarios and then we know what to do, but also understand who's it who's in control. And generally, when you're when you've got the ball, you're in control. And disappointingly, on both occasions, almost in the same position on the field. We, we had the game in our in our hands and didn't execute. So that was the that was the two from the last couple of notes from that tournament, say thanks for bringing that up. But it's all in. It's all it's all in our learning. And, yeah, if we can not make the same mistake twice, and then we can take that forward into whenever our next tournament is.
Paul Barnett 07:17
Well, I'll move on. I'll move away from that, then I won't I won't get into any other further learning around that. And let's I'd like to ask you about something else. I love this quote from you. Actually, when you said sometimes it's the people least like you, that can challenge you the most and lead you to different ways of thinking. Can you give an example of how this has helped you in your coaching? Last? Can you hear me okay, for last year now I've got your back. Did you Did you hear the question, Tim? Or shall I repeat it? Ah,
07:54
I've lost you.
Paul Barnett 07:58
Yeah, I'm going to quickly just change to another internet if you can give me a second. And then I'll come back. Give me a second team. Okay. Yeah, the kids the kids are waking up my actually not 752 so they're awake. And they're probably playing on their devices and they shouldn't be
Tim Walsh 08:22
on the door clear. So clear now.
Paul Barnett 08:25
Yeah, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna switch to my hotspot if you can just give me a tick. Because this all happened. My fortunately my lovely daughters are getting ready for school.
08:36
Well, they should be.
Paul Barnett 08:38
I haven't heard any yelling yet. So
08:42
why is that not?
Paul Barnett 08:47
Sorry, team. Oh, it's not popping up? Oh, no, Tim, we'll just have to keep going. I think and see how we go. Is that okay? Yeah. All right. I'm gonna ask that question again, if it's alright with you. Yep. So, Tim, I love this quote from you when you said, sometimes it's the people least like you, that can challenge you the most and lead you to different ways of thinking. Can you give, can you give an example of how that helped you in your coaching?
Tim Walsh 09:27
Yeah, I think generally, someone's thinking different to you, then it's a, it creates a bit of certainly some deeper thought but some friction and then you you can, you know, debate and look at things in a different way. And that happens in a multitude of different ways[PB2] . And there's diversity within that And particularly, within the women's, my time the women's team, that's where a lot of that sort of came through. But this is a the example actually last week. I was on a On an education course, around the company directors and very smart, intelligent academic, sort of people that were talking about risk and strategy, and then everything they said, I was trying to, like, turn it back into, into my coaching role. And then you looked at like, you know, Fiji, they play this, you know, this offload, high tempo kind of kind of game and then you have teams that kick the ball and you know, whenever sip someone sees someone kick the ball, I think it's it's high risk. So as like, how do you do it do a, an audit on your risk in terms of on field? And, you know, if you imagine if you put in a price, so have certain triggers that make that not a risk? So you see the fee, James, do it? Are there certain triggers or processes that go into an offload that allow that root that risk to be mitigated to something very minimal? So basically, putting a system in place that reduces risk? And I know it sounds pretty, pretty basic, but obviously practicing it, but then having a having a process, if you're doing an offline is a two or three or one defender in front of you? Is the person behind you calling for it? Have you thought of them? And, you know, did you execute the past where you're finishing up a target kind of thing. So then if you sort of tick those boxes, and is it a risk, not at all, or if you're kicking, kicking a ball that you've looked at us division, there's no sweeper, players called it, that player is quick enough, or whatever it is in a better position, and then you've practiced the skill of kicking, then it's not a risk. So it was just an hour just to reinforce but it was listening to a strategist or someone an academic, that was thinking in a in a business way, and then you can apply it to a to a rugby field.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 12:05
actually talking about applying things to a rugby field from from left field, when you were setting up the women's 17, you took a very different approach, not trying to to take 15 players and create sevens players, but you actually look for athletes from different codes, different sports, and brought them into Rugby Sevens, when you got this diverse group of people together, what did you do first with them?
Tim Walsh 12:31
or creating that, that vision around what we thought was gonna win a gold medal? And then, so we had the vision, and then it was like, Okay, what how are we going to get all those players to together. So basically had to do a skill matrix. So what what was the competitive advantage going to be, and then what style of play that look like, and then what we needed for that, for that, or what attributes are needed for the for the players, both mentally and physically. So basically, a skill matrix in a squat balance of all the different factors that would give us the outcome of that desired vision for that for that team. So skill matrix. And then so whether it be you know, speed from from the athletic track, like aelia, grain area skills from from a basketball, or climbing down the vision and passing and awareness from from touch players, the contact skills and power running over, over regulate or rugby union player. So all that is a skill matrix, and then guy, right, we need a certain number, the certain number of these, the way that we're going to play is going to be this way. So that we're going to need a lot of girls that have had the skill attributes already that were that they gathered from, from patch football around awareness and ability to pass left and right at a high level and make decisions.[PB4] So yeah, developing a skill matrix and then and then picking the best possible options and it's a huge effort from rugby, Australia to actually have that, but then being able to execute it in, in having play something that's going to actually attract these athletes and then give them the the time and the and the resources to be able to to be produced the results. Yeah, I mean, I was I was a cog in that wheel, which I was very thankful for. But ultimately, it was having, having a vision and then the process of how to get there. And in that vision basically encompassed a skill matrix of plays that were needed to create that.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 14:50
When you talk then about very physical skills, jumping, running, moving, but you were also very successful at bringing in mental skills. To the team that did win that gold medal, and I'd read about how before the big game in Rio, how can the team what's you know, dancing and singing apparently, I'm wondering how you managed to create such a calm and focused group on that big stage on that big day.
Tim Walsh 15:20
Yeah, it obviously happens every time. We looked at our ad debilitate, as of the Olympics. And one of them, the biggest one was probably the pressure or the ability to stay in your performance bubble. So we had all these different techniques around dealing with it, but we first we had to identify what they were. So we got this grid, this big bubble on the wall, and then put us in the middle. And then with, okay, this is a bubble, what's going to come in there and try and try and pop, pop it, you know, whether it be you know, family and friends, social media, pets, you know, dying, you know, tragedies, partners, you know, all that, all that kind of stuff. Pressure was, you know, obviously a big one, and then develop techniques and how we were going to develop it. So preparation breeds confidence[PB6] . So we had our, this is what could possibly happen, these are our tools in which we can, we can do it, and then a lot of it organically over the four years, like I think there's certain amount of key things that successful teams always have, and it's combinations and cohesion, you know, it's winning experience, it's a culture that is reflective of your environment[PB7] . So all these different factors that sort of go into it, but we had a really good group of people have players by staff and men and employers that grew, grew together, and managed to tick all those boxes on the way in terms of, you know, winning experience defining moments within within seasons, giving attention to what the debilitates again, a B, and then building a culture that was, you know, that was very team, team orientated and team first. So there was this, this aura of, of confidence, knowing that if we performed that we will probably going to win. And then this sort of breaking it down into ultimately, it's a game of rugby, you know, could be anywhere, but it just happens to be a billion people watching, but it's something we do day in, day out. And we didn't want to, we wanted to leave that stadium without without any regrets. You know, it wasn't the it wasn't the outcome that we were driving towards, it was a performance. And that's what was going to make us as proud is that we we went into that tournament, not having any regret, we walked away from that tournament without regret.[PB8] And, and that's exactly how, how they how they prepared. And I truly believe that's what gave him the confidence and the, the, the enjoyment is that, you know, I think living with regret is probably the hardest thing you can do. But they did they didn't leave a stone unturned, they're in a good, good position. You know, for all those reasons, I said, as well, you know, we're here to, to enjoy an experience that we'll never forget, and I don't know, just sort of all it's a tough one to answer. But when you break it down, you can sort of see why but it was a it's a formula that every coach is striving to do. And you know, I think there's a lot of factors that go into it. But there was certainly a an air of confidence in that room. And you can just feel it and you can say it as coaches and as staff just from the outside looking in that they weren't going to lose. And it's a nice feeling to to have
Paul Barnett 19:07
of that team actually the use that you helped set up to win that gold medal you said they were a team we thought could influence generations of young female athletes to take out rugby. Do you think you've achieved this?
Tim Walsh 19:20
Definitely. Yeah, I think it's probably it's not just fame. I mean, I've inspired miles to play the rugby you know, it's it everything sort of ended up in a really positive way in our favor like it ended up being a Tuesday morning in Australia and am Australia New Zealand. So almost like peak time in rugby and I went out and won. But the way that they did it, I think was was the most complimentary to them and and in the sport in Australia is that they reshaped What I think women's contact sport look like. And I do remember this. There's one there's one moment is Australia vs USA. And one of the USA girls powerful fast, like tremendous athletes. And then the Charlotte Catholic was at the back sweeper. And she's like here and across the field, you know, she's got the plats and the ribbons in her hair. You know, she's she's laying She's fast. And she absolutely drills this girl in a beautiful tackle, like textbook tackle of power, and elegance. And then she like, dropped to the floor, she did jump back up to a feet before the other girl had even taken a breath, flicked a ponytail Oh, pigtail over shoulder and started off to the, To what? To what was next, you know, just like that moment to me was like, wow, that just changed a perception on women rugby players or contact sports in Australia. So I truly believe they had a massive influence on on shaping the future of contact sport. in, in, in Australia. So in answer yes, I did inspire both both females and, and males to, to play rugby. And I think that's pretty, pretty evident in some of the statistical data that's been coming through. Since since the since the inception of rugby. It's not just it wasn't just the Australian girls, it was the whole the whole all the countries it was a whole Olympics. And that's the beauty, I guess of the Olympics. And it gives you a platform to display your your sport and various other political other usages that it has. But yeah,
Paul Barnett 22:02
just turn up. When you were appointed, as the men's seven coach, rugby, Australia, General Manager, Ben Whittaker said that you are a quote, transformational leader, and operates within a style that is process driven and performance based. So I'd like to ask you what, what is a good process when it comes to rugby, your sport
Tim Walsh 22:25
depends on what you're what you're looking at. But if you love talking on field I, I work off like a four step sort of process that, first of all, you got to deliver the knowledge, like give the plays and knowledge, whether it be your attack framework or defensive framework, or you know how to make decisions or, you know, different just the knowledge on on what to do, where on how to play. And then I demand players looking at using their vision. So always scanning the environment, scanning your team, their team, where the spaces are. And then that information gives you the ability to make a decision. So you've got the knowledge, then you've looked up and you've got the environment or the the the outlook on how to make the decision. And then with them, we go to the skill to execute it. So that's the process I use is given the knowledge and that could be knowledge or and you know how to draw apply it but the knowledge around how this team operates in in frameworks and defense system or policy in a tax system. So that's a different kind of process, demand vision. And then then I can make a decision, and then given the skills to execute it. So that's the, that's the process I use.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 23:46
When you actually took over the men's sevens team in 2019, you talked about doing an audit, and then creating a plan, you know, to take the team towards the Olympics. And I'm wondering, from that experience, what advice you would have for other coaches who are you know, starting in their role with a new team?
Tim Walsh 24:07
Yeah, say I think definitely, definitely take a look at your all the different factors, you know, the SWOT analysis, the environment in which you're operating in, but don't take someone else's sort of plan or style and just plug it into into yours because you might have different players, different ages, different experiences, different maturity, say, you did have to do you know, and you can use a lot of statistical data and all that kind of stuff. Say, ordered it in all different aspects from you know, from politics to playing styles to what you what you can have, so it's analyze what you have or can have, and then develop a point of difference around that, and then then you develop it so you get a competitive advantage. And then you build your behaviors around, around around that vision.[PB10] So there's, you know, I went into, you know, historical data around how we play comparatively to successful teams. And then you look at overall has what is a successful team looking combinations and cohesion, and then looked at our political environment around what we could have in this from that developing what, what I think is going to be the competitive advantage, and then, and then build it into your day to day.
Paul Barnett 25:35
And you actually found some unique data when you went through that price. If I'm, if I remember reading correctly.
Tim Walsh 25:44
Yeah, which one are you referring to?
Paul Barnett 25:46
It was in relation to the amount of time that the men's team have with the ball. And they're not getting into space as much? Well, they haven't had they're having more contact than than their
Tim Walsh 25:57
competition. Yeah, I just that was one of them is that we were the probably the highest contact team, we've we've Canada. And in the top, the top teams, the top four teams, whether somewhere between one and seven in terms of least number of contacts, and then look at how our skill set or our body shape around your ability to contact and then you look at the environment, or the rules of the game where a penalty is coming from where they were balls getting turned over from and a lot of appointed to contact. So we had to get very good at contact. They're not discarding that. But this thing, again, that from the lead better suited to, to the style of players that we have. And then, of course, if they're not, then we got to build the build the team around that that's going to have that point of difference. So that was a glaring or a big one. For me, and something that could be adjusted slightly. Yeah, so that was, and I think if you look at our results recently, it's actually shifted in a big way, I think we're now sort of third or fourth in terms of contact, and consistency in our results as as shifted a lot. So where you feel like we're in there, we're in a good position for to take care 21.
Paul Barnett 27:24
Well, you know, speaking of consistency, you were recently saying that the difference between being on the podium regularly is learning to be consistent in the way that you make decisions, and having composure when you make those decisions. And I'm wondering how it is that you help coach someone to make better decisions?
Tim Walsh 27:44
Yeah, no, that probably doesn't doesn't ring true. If you take my best First, the first question, you asked me around what was written on my last report, and Li in Vancouver, we'd sort of didn't hold on, they haven't denied our composure, but you look at a game, a tournament in in sevens over the over the weekend, a good team will probably have two or three games out of the seats that come down to pretty much the last play of the game, a great team might have one, but a good team. And we're a good team. So that is, those moments will happen quite quite regularly. So they're really important to be able to perform under pressure. And that's where that sort of processes come in is, you know, process driven, performance based and then giving the players tools to be able to do it and that they got to be that's going to become part of your your culture and your training. So, Addie comfort zone chaos. And I just find a lot of a lot of games that aren't related to rugby, it's more mental application that really put you in nice position. So I think there's a double Yeah, dartboard in the background here. So there's like, you know, we'll have tournaments in here that, you know, you get one shot, you know, close to the ball, or whatever it is that and how do you many review is like, how did you feel? What did you do about it? How did you handle that? That moment? Did you visualize Did you brave? Did you think about the outcome, did you not focus on the process, so, you know, whether it be vs or goal for anything, but you're constantly putting the players under, under pressure, at the end of training, instead of now might get a kick is just to come over and get the whole team just to circle them. And just absolutely, you know, berate them in the best way they can to see how they, if they can kick it under pressure. You know, I think I've even got an indoor training area here I recorded the crowd just on a, on a on the iPhone and then hooked it up to the to the speaker system and just played that while they was training in the field but just how you can block it out. So just continually try to create scenarios that that put you in that position, but the there's nothing better than alive and it has to be created. But it's just trying to understand it and then giving giving them the tools to be able to do it.[PB11]
Paul Barnett 30:03
It's a great idea. Again, I might steal that one. You were the, you were the captain of the Australian school boys team, and a professional player before you became a coach. So I'd like to ask you, what advice would you give to coaches, when it comes to choosing a captain?
Tim Walsh 30:23
I think they have to be the heart and soul of the team, the team's values. Like there's all it's what the team needs,[PB12] like, if there's a, there's a real good balance of like lieutenants or, or players that, you know, want to be led in, or they're in a development stage, like, so what the team needs at that time. And that's, again, I think, the difference between someone who has the vision and an ability to execute it, and that will realize that, you know, whether it be through intuition, or some sort of audit, or analysis around this team's lacking, lacking this kind of leadership, or lacking a leader, and then this play here, if you give him the responsibility, he's gonna have a real positive effect because of this, isn't it? So it's very, it's very situational. But ultimately, if the player has to live and breathe, as they all do, but ultimately live and breathe and create that, that identity that that the team is, is his delivering all or living, it helps if they're, if they're one of the best players, and they're always picked, but it's not always there. It's not always the case. I think it's what the team needs, and that they're living, what the team is about.
Paul Barnett 31:47
He talked about values, their team, are there any values that are central to your coaching philosophy?
Tim Walsh 31:54
Yeah, I mean, I mean, that, yeah, there's several and I mean, you can't, you can't change them. And I think rugby is a great place to actually develop some over, over over time. I think those those, you know, espouse value in the middle, where you can you can adapt to and bring on, but ultimately, on the foundation of who you are, isn't really isn't really going to go change. And it is, you know, it's ultimately, it's 10. First, he's like, what can you do, that's gonna make this team better. And that's probably the biggest the biggest one. And then within the boundaries of that are obviously, you know, the, you know, respect and ethics and all that kind of stuff, but team first. But without any of all that stuff, you got to have the trust, to be able to deliver that. So that's what you have to, you have to aspire to before anything, is to have the trust of the people that you're working with. And I think once you've once you've got that, there, it's exponential growth.[PB13]
Paul Barnett 33:06
So during the last few months, we've all had chance to sort of read or engage with new resources and watch different things on Netflix and listen to different types of music, I'm interested, is Have there been any resources that you've engaged with in the last six to 12 months that have really helped you and you found useful in your development as a coach?
Tim Walsh 33:27
Yeah, I mean, having time, which is what you sort of alluded to, is that you sort of like scrambling from tournament to tournament and recovering and patching back up and gank a match you have actually had time to reflect. And then what I think is, was sort of, we thought of why I fell into the into it was right, I got all this time, which I didn't really around personal development, you know, in really trying to better myself and make something use of this, but this whole pandemic is a personal development, we're dealing with a lot here, you know, mentally and, you know, or every organization is different, but there's a lot of stuff going on. And then you try and pile on to that, you know, something else, which I did. And now I'm continuing to do. But ultimately, this is a probably the biggest personal development I'm ever going to have is trying to navigate an Olympic program through a pandemic, you know, and you sort of like, you get so many different issues, you know, like, finances and mental health and performance and relationships and everything, like so. Yeah, initially just went hard at it, you know, talking to different people and, and, and how they're doing what they're doing and, and stories and watching and reading and then this sort of really, yeah, just take a moment and Realize, yeah, handling this is going to be the probably the biggest challenge you will you, I will come up to up against as a coach. So focus on that. And you know, mental health and the stability of the of the team and the players is the imperative. and stuff as opposed to my personal development, because that is personal development is how you're going to look after this group of players.[PB14] And, and then you sort of, you know, once I realized that it was like everything, put that put myself in their shoes, everything they had, was sort of taken away. No, I was always like, I've got a young kids and family and a wife and I can get home and be in this being this wonderful kind of environment and players like the young men, they got into rugby, because, you know, I get to travel the world play for their country, you know, there's the financial aid is all these all these wonderful things that just got all of them got taken away, you know, the finance has got massively cut, they're not traveling the world anymore, that they live for the team. And initially, you're in lockdown, you couldn't even see your team match the contact that you've seen rugby players, like they tackle and whatever. But they're, they're always hugging and high fiving. And just there's a lot of contact, you just take everything away, you know, and then I was like, I was going home to my family thinking, this is sort of great, I get to spend time with my kids and reconnect with my wife in a way that I haven't bound for a while, and that the PI's don't get that. So I was like, wow, okay. Yeah, so they're in a very, I think, a very sensitive position that we needed to really address and had to fill, fill those holes in changing, you know, challenging them in different way, changing their diversifying their job role, you know, and different ways to visualize or what can we work on? You know, how can we get together. And luckily, as things went on, you know, the end, we're in a wonderful country, and a wonderful city, actually, that we were able to, to get back to training relatively quickly. And things certainly aren't great. But they're, they getting there. And we can. And when we do get there we can, as a group, we can say we did this, you know, we got through this together. And we're going to be better for
Paul Barnett 37:33
just one last question, if I can, team builds on a little bit about what you're talking about there, I want to ask you about legacy. And there's this great video, you know, when you left the women's team, they they put together this video to say farewell to you. And I don't know who the player is, but right at the end. She says I want to thank you. But I can't wait to take over your coaching job. And I wanted to ask you, is this the type of legacy that you want to leave as a coach?
Tim Walsh 38:03
Not not particularly. Now, I think that that girl, she could coach the team and she wanted to, but I'm pretty sure she'll end up being a CEO of some top 50 company or even rugby, Australia, I don't know, but I am the legacy is just to have an impact on a positive impact on people's lives. And that, to me is the foundation to building the game. Like it's if you have this wonderful positive impact, because they're playing this game of rugby, then that that's just going to filter out into into everywhere else, you know, whether it be word of mouth or those girls representing or the guys they are representing the game, and then that ultimately just has has an effect and this is what you know rugby's power has been for is that, you know, that's the type of person that has having a Yeah, my legacy again, it's nothing, nothing really outcome based in terms of having a positive impact on on people's lives that that will enhance the game, I guess is the foundation that will enhance the game of rugby.[PB15]
Paul Barnett 39:17
Tim Walsh, on that note, I'd like to thank you very much for your time today. It's been a great discussion, and I wish you all the best on the road to 2021 in Tokyo.
Tim Walsh 39:24
Thank you very much very enjoyable.
Paul Barnett 39:29
Cheers, Tim. What a great interview. Thanks, right.
Tim Walsh 39:32
Where is it? Oh, oh, hi. Oh, that wasn't I've got some media training. Another personal development thing is applied. I uh, I dribble too much. I've got to make it more more concise.
Paul Barnett 39:45
I didn't find you dribbled match to a bag. Either you were fired. You were being uncomfortable. I could see you rubbing your head and sort of moving around me but now I think you do
Tim Walsh 39:58
what you said. I wasn't on I wasn't sure he was his voice. I felt like I could,
Paul Barnett 40:04
I can move around a bit. That video was amazing if I, you know, when you finish in a role, or you finish in a country that often give you a gift and stuff, but that video must have been an amazing in the meantime.
40:18
Yeah, you know, like
Tim Walsh 40:20
that whole experience I got behind you might have caught the style of I didn't even want to coach let alone coach women, you know what I mean? Like, I was I was a, I don't want to cage you know, these unskilled, slow, you know, I laughed at it. And then the whole thing just, you know, what, what they gave me, you know, like in terms of development and, and love and fun. And you know, and then you have to do it at the Olympics. Like, shit, you get to tell a story now as well. But then, yeah, I think someone asked me like, oh, Ben Ryan got, it was on a $7 night and he got a piece of land. And he got he got knighted. And all this kind of stuff. And there's like, is like, Oh, you know, like, diva thing. I was like, like, well, not, you know, like, what's your position, or whatever it is. And it's like, That video is like, incredible. And there's actually another one they did that was a private one is when we were in early on, did this lip sync song. And it was bit themed to what our sort of next phase was. And it was just really funny. And they at the time, they thought it was a bit silly, but when I saw it all together, I thought was a great thing. So I did this lip, this lip sing song about a back about a coach, which which they gave to me. And we've taken a lot of time to put it all together. And yeah, it's like things like that. And then you hear girls say certain things like, you know, the impact of it on their life in a real positive way. Like, that's priceless kind of stuff, you know, like, and that's ultimately, I think, why I love the job so much is that the people you work with? Like, I figured that out about myself that if if I'm not passionate about the people that I work with, I might not do it. Like, I'm a people pleaser, or aka, you know, more more emotive. We should Yeah, this is really, really important, though is this, the tight the timing of it, the situation of it, the fact that we grew together, we learnt together and then we got to resolve and you know, all those things were just go shit. Some of it was destiny. And some of it was luck. And some of it was hard work. And
Paul Barnett 42:42
yeah, I think a lot of it was was people management. Um, this is about the 14th interview I've done. And I've done a few just, honestly, I thought I'd get four or five or six. But everyone I've written has been really good. And they've said yes. And then I've, as I've researched, I've come up with new names. And I've interviewed a few men that have coached women's teams, most notably Ric Charlesworth. Yeah. And I've got this sort of hypothesis I'm working on it could be terribly wrong. But I say it a little bit. In my experience with younger women coming into the workplace. Yep. If you can be a positive role model isn't male. You're actually in a it's not actually a big cohort. Yeah. Which is a bit sad. Yeah, I think if you can, it's all about being automatic and reaching for the word, father. But that's not that's not the area. If you can just be a positive male influence. You it will go a long way. And it surprises me and it also sends me a little bit.
Tim Walsh 43:46
Yeah, no, I agree. And then on reflection, I'm like, why did this job? Why did that job save me? And then I was like, okay, so I grew up with three sisters. So did that have a did that have an impact on on how I behaved and then I came from rugby's are these like male dominated air but had respect and values and was very good and then I grew up with women. Maybe that's a reason why what happened and then and then you looked at Yeah, coaching women and what what they Why was it successful? You know, it is it's basically it's a communication thing listening respect. And then once you get a say trust, I think trust with with guys is different to trust with girls like when you get trust with them. With blacks, it's it's it's quite easy to get because we're simple. I think and then with but if you get the trust of a woman because we have bigger and stronger and you know, we can you know dif miles are just dominating you can get a trust of a trust of a woman that trust a team. That's that goes a long way. And and then the other one was, you know, if Men need to feel good to win. Women need to feel good. That's all men need to win to feel good. And women need to feel good to win. That was sort of something I learned pretty early is that you had that trust. But then if we had everyone was feeling good, then we would perform it was it was more emotive than with the guys.
Paul Barnett 45:19
With a great insight team. It's awesome chatting with you up. You've given me an error every time I appreciate it. I'll thank you very much. I'll send you a link when we finally put it up. But I have one small request, it was not too much. Yeah, I I watched this great video with you and a guy called Ben Ryan, who I didn't even know existed. And I was just listening to your part of the interview, to be honest. And he says, but if it was appropriate to get an introduction to him, I would be extremely thankful cuz I think he's got an interesting story to tell as well.
Tim Walsh 45:52
He's very, he's a very creative. And as he as you said, Yeah, Ben Ron, he coached me and yeah, I've got a lot of my sort of skills or ideas. You just
Paul Barnett 46:07
one article, actually. All right, some way,
Tim Walsh 46:08
will you? Because it was limited. Limited carbons. Yeah. Yeah. So he got the job. And he hadn't really had much to seven. So it took me out to lunch. And, you know, what do you know about sevens because I've, I just loved his, we're very different personalities. So he's an extrovert, and I'll definitely definitely link you in but he was just very creative in, in not following trends and creating his own and being strategic is another Strategic Coach, you know, okay, you have these you have coaches, who are technically, you know, they're unfilled, and it's about all about, you know, passing, and then there's on field all about rugby. You know, you know, are they the guru or the rake down all that kind of stuff, but then there's coaches that are, that are more like managers, you know, and the strategy and the communication and the dynamics and the leadership and all that kind of thing. So I think I'm definitely in that category. And that that's what that's what Ben, Ben sits as well. In you and McKenzie, he would like I think you might have heard, he was one of the reasons I sort of like switch to, actually this coaching thing is going to be pretty cool. I get to run a business in a game that I like, and have all those, all those, you know, skills that you use in business, you can actually use them in this game. Yeah, so I went a bit off
Paul Barnett 47:38
night. Absolutely. I'll
Tim Walsh 47:40
definitely, definitely link you in and I think there's a there's a positive exchange. Yeah,
Paul Barnett 47:46
thank you. Very good. I was gonna say it's, it's, there's definitely a link between comments while I set up the podcast between coaching and leading at work. And undoubtedly, undoubtedly, but what happens is that the way they because, you know, in corporate environment, you you perform every day and your training is minimal. We do, it's the opposite, right, you're training all the time, and you performance is actually a smaller percentage. And what I find is that the leadership training we get, tends to be quite static, it'll be it'll be online, or it will be in a classroom. And it's not always with the type of leader you want to model yourself on. And to be honest, you know, talking to great CEOs, I have not no interest in that at all. They're great people, and they're wonderful, don't get me wrong, and I'm nice and good ones, but there are thousands of books and stuff out there about them. But ultimately, it's not as selfless as coaching. And there's a degree of stoicism in coaching that is absent in the corporate world. So those two things are something I find they're actually in short supply with millennials, particularly stoicism. So you know, being resilient, keep going get up, get on time wear your uniform, you know, it's it's a skill, it's disappearing, and it's disappearing very quickly. And, and, you know, a lot of people you know, talk about mental skills development stuff, we didn't get into it today, because there's other things I want to talk to you about, but that's the area that we will be in is growing in importance. You know, when I was talking to Eddie Jones, we spent a lot of the interview talking about his psychologist Corinne rate. And I actually followed up and listen to some some podcast with her. Oh, my god, she's, she's elite, elite, elite, elite. mining for conflict observation skills, watching body language. I mean, you talked a little bit about body language early on, but these are the these are the skills for the next 20 years. Abs undoubtedly in my mind. Yeah. They're in this my contribution to the conversation.
Tim Walsh 49:53
Now that could be a that's a that's hours of conversation. Yeah, but I think Yeah, my next My next area of study is definitely going to be psychology like and I just find it so interesting. And the the relation to performance, you know that same thing I can be a psychologist, but you got to do it. You got to be good one, you got to get it right. Well understand the environment in which you're in, but I just want so interesting. And yeah, how many implies you've got talent and, and not not gone on? Or you know how to get the best out of people?
Paul Barnett 50:29
Yeah, no, I agree. It's, um, we've got a full time psychologist on staff actually, which is, yeah, it's. So when when people join, so a graduate, a good, a good graduate, and in Europe, they don't graduate to 2526. It's five, six years. It's crazy. But they, they join us, and we put them through psych testing, but it's not. It's three elements. So we do do intelligence, but not that I get a score, we just do average above average, superior. And then we do interpersonal skills. But the most important area do is we do this thing called complexity testing, which gives you a reading on how strategic you're going to be through your career. It's a forward looking indicee. You never get a written summary. But what happens is every time you become a manager, so you get promoted, and right now you got your little group of five, psychologists will debrief you on each of the people in your team, assuming they've had testing and most people haven't hit office level. So they'll say all right, Tim, Tim, you've got Tim, Tim, he has superior, numeric superior, verbal, and he has average abstract thinking great interpersonal skills. He's not extroverted, he's not introverted. He's friendly, he manages he's straight stress. Well, his watch out is that he will work too hard and sacrifice blah, blah, blah. But then they'll say, emotional stability, he's lower than average. So what you need to do with Tim is spend a lot of time at the start of the week talking to him about how he's going to prepare for the week. And as soon as you spot conflict, you need to unpack it with him immediately. Yeah, so I just employed this lady actually, she's in bed, a French lady, she's in Barcelona, Sykes through the roof. And you're really smart lady, multiple languages, blah, blah, blah, worked all over the world. But every two years she moves. And we will learn what's going on here. So we set up a site, and it came back. She's um, as we guessed, actually, in the interview, she's got lower than average. She's not low, but she's below average on emotional stability. So what happens is, whenever she has conflict, she invariably runs. Yeah. So in the interview, she was very open about it. And then after the soccer results, we said, we're going to set you up with a career coach, I know a great lady. She's an ex Heineken, MD, based here in Czech, and she's wonderful. I've used it before. So she's going to work with you on emotional stability. In my role would be, I'll help you, I'm actually good at conflict, like I seek it, which is unusual to not necessarily good. So I said, I will help you with all the conflict. And I'm also I've been here for a long time. So I'm reasonably well connected. And we'll make sure it all gets resolved quickly. And she listened. And she said, Yeah, that's great. But what I'm really looking forward to is solving all the conflict in the pub. And it's true, because we check drink a lot. 40% more beer than the next nearest country in the world beers, they invented beer, it's part of the social fabric. So at work, maybe one night a week, in normal times during the pub. But when you're in the pub, you don't talk about work, right? It's just social phobia, you talk about life, you talk about what you're doing to get kids and things get resolved quickly. And interestingly, that's what attracted her to the job.
53:50
Wow.
Paul Barnett 53:53
So I just just I can resonate with you, and you talk about psychology and it makes me realize how well we are applying it at you know, in our in our environment.
Tim Walsh 54:05
Yeah, I mean, you can see the human body can do amazing things like you can see see this freaky stuff on Facebook and you know, different things in YouTube, but the brain is just insane. Like, we haven't even talked to you neurologist, we haven't even touched the surface of it really, in a very brief way. We did the same thing, we had a psychologist come in and do all the personality testing and and underlying values and then they sort of gave me a summary on how to how I can best communicate to this person where this person sort of sits in a in a team you know, are they supportive or are they you know, dominating. So then you know, you can build you build around it and actually yeah, exactly is this mental objects affecting the team we had a, we had one sort of red, like, you know, alpha dominating the restaurant or sort of yellow or blue was just like holy shit. Like, it's not it's not a good balance, like, say, you know, now your roles and and how to communicate it. And yeah became a really helpful tool
Paul Barnett 55:14
you might find if you study psychology, you'd know you'd have a good enough grasp of it.
Tim Walsh 55:20
Maybe we know too much. That's the other danger.
Paul Barnett 55:23
Yeah, well that she know the problem 90 matches, you're right, because it gets quite ruthless. So there's examples of people that work in a highly competent, you know, they're very competent, but because of their psychological makeup, they don't have potential. So we put people into high potential good potential. And then there's no potential no potential plateau no potential negative, yeah, 80% of your company, not 85 90% of the company, you're at no potential, right? It's just the reality. And what you're gonna try to do is make sure they've plateaued, you've got, you'd have one or 2% in high potential, and then you got maybe 5% income potential. What you got to do is you get, you know, you promote, you're interviewing some of promotion, you know, they're very competent, but they've got no potential, that's what the science tells us, that's what we see. can't promote them anymore. You know, and that, that, that's tough. You know, because they're really good at what they do. But you, you're only you're trying to build the business for the next 10 or 20 years. And you know, you got to find people with potential, that some, that's difficult, because then you're talking to someone about their psychological makeup and saying, look, you just don't have the potential to take on more stress. And I could give you this role, but you'll end up having a nervous breakdown, you know, you just don't have the tools to deal with it. Anyway, I'm talking too much. I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go. I'm gonna leave you with an open invitation to come into the boardroom. You probably it'll probably never happen. But if you are in Europe, you're more than welcome to come in. I think you'd love it. We're a team of experts. So we're from all over the place. And I think you'd love just watching the interaction and chatting with the CEO and the CMO. So they're invitations there. If you do end up in Europe in the next year or so.
Tim Walsh 57:07
I'd love to death. There'll be a plane taken off there. But thank you for the invite. I would and I will take if I do ever do get there. And it's been enjoyable. And
Paul Barnett 57:16
yeah, keep in touch. I will get on your team. Good luck, man. It's been wonderful chatting with you.
Tim Walsh 57:21
Thanks, Paul.