Andy Shay Edit
Thu, Aug 17, 2023 6:43PM • 23:10
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, yale, mental toughness, cannella, bit, win, lacrosse, young men, physical toughness, play, feel, season, players, coaching, kids, game, sport, compound effect, program, goal
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Andy Shay
Paul Barnett 00:00
So Andy Shea Good afternoon, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Andy Shay 00:05
Good afternoon to you. It's morning here. So
Paul Barnett 00:08
well, why don't you tell us where you are in the world actually, and what you've been up to so far today
Andy Shay 00:14
in New Haven, Connecticut, and the lacrosse coach at Yale University, and most of the morning, then work and work with our, our engineering school to develop some new technology for our sport, which is one of the great things about working at Yale. And then there's a little bit of work with admissions trying to get kids into this great institution.
Paul Barnett 00:31
Well, we're going to talk about Yale as we go along, when we might talk a little bit about innovation as well. But I wouldn't mind to starting Andy with some of the great coaches you've had experience with, because I've been learning all about lacrosse in preparation for today's interview, and I know that you've worked with some of the best, there's Bob Shillinglaw. There's Jack Emma. And there's Greg Cannella, as well. And I'm wondering, from this perspective, working up close with these, these great coaches in the cross, what do you think great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Andy Shay 01:05
Well, I mean, I think I think those two of those guys were mentors for mine and jackhammer, distant over this. I didn't work under him. But Bob Schilling law and Greg Cannella, I just feel unbelievably fortunate to have worked with those guys who were so important in my formative coaching years, you know, when you're in your 20s, you get into this because you love the sport. And then I think if you're if you're smart enough, you realize very quickly that you don't really know anything about the game, or at least enough. And I think the more I do it, the more I think I probably know less than I did the day before. But you know, Bob Schilling lot is is a walking Wikipedia of lacrosse, he's just an incredible guy to learn under, once again, realizing that you don't necessarily know as much as you thought you knew. And then you know, Greg Cannella, is the mark of consistency that I really haven't seen since then I don't think I'll see again, he's just a incredibly focused and consistent leader that the both of them are very far apart from each other in terms of their approach to the game. But I think that, like I said, I'd love to think that I've taken equal amounts from both and landed right in the middle of my kind of my model.[PB1]
How the great coaches helped him learn the game in a way that then allowed his to become a coach at thhee highest level.
Paul Barnett 02:18
If I could follow up, Andy, because you come from a family of seven with five boys. Now I'm wondering, I know that must have been quite a competitive back garden, when it came to sports activities. But I'm wondering how that experience has gone on and shaped you now as a coach.
Andy Shay 02:35
Well, honestly, of the of the five boys, I'm the weakest athlete of all them, I guess, of all seven of them. One of my sisters didn't really played many sports. But, you know, by most measures, I was the weakest athlete of all of them. And it allowed me, I should say, it forced me when I found the game of lacrosse to kind of sink my teeth into into that and kind of make my own path that wasn't, you know, in the shadow of my brother. So I think that without that, you know, they didn't play lacrosse, they played football, basketball, and baseball, I played football and a little bit of basketball. And just when I found the sport, I was in my sophomore year in high school and decided that, you know, it was what I wanted to do. There's something that I could do better than them because they didn't do it. So, you know, I developed in college as a player and then realize that I wasn't done with the sport and started coaching.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 03:24
Well, actually, I wanted to talk to you about your decision to coach because your father was the basketball coach in your hometown, but he was also the DA. Now. He's a very important role model to you. But how did he react when you told him you wanted to be a career coach,
Andy Shay 03:39
it's something I look back on the really amazing the level of trust that he had and needed to do this. And, you know, when you first start college coaching, you're not making any money in making any money for a number of years. So he realized that, maybe, you know, I thought maybe I wanted to be a lawyer like him. And I wanted to, you know, when I started coaching, but I don't, I don't want to be a lawyer, I want to be a coach. And, you know, I was making almost no money in the, you know, the school that I was at and wasn't projected to make a ton of money, you know, anytime soon. But right away, he and my mother were just like, that's this is your path, that's what you should do. And he supported it. 100% One of the things he did say was that if he could go back in time, he would just coach rather than go to law school. And you know, I think that for him, his passion was law, but I think he thoroughly got more out of coaching than I should say, be in the DEA. I think that it was a chance to work people and impact lives and and he was really good at it. I try and like and the only the paint the picture I can paint of him is that he? You know if you've seen the movie To Kill a Mockingbird, The Gregory pecks character, Atticus Finch, that's what he was like as a lawyer that starkly similar, and as a coach, he's, you know, he's a former Marine and If you could, you could hear it his voice when he coached. So you know, in my coaching path I've just kind of when I first started, I thought I'd try and emulate him in terms of how to carry myself and how to direct the team. And it's been an impersonation the entire way.
The role his fathr has played, who is a DA and ex marine, in shapring his approach to coaching.
Paul Barnett 05:15
Well, he started out being an assistant coach, he worked your way up, and I've read how you were doing a lot of part time jobs to make ends meet isn't moving along. But you get to Yale in 2003, when you take the team back to the number one rank in the country now, what's interesting is that the last time they were number one was in 1883, which is really crazy. What were the early decisions you took that helped fuel that result?
Andy Shay 05:41
When I looked at the job I was, I was the assistant coach at UMass under Greg Cannella. And when you're coming up, you want to be a head coach and looking at all the head coaching opportunities. For some reason, the ones that fascinated me more than others would be the ones that looked like a bigger challenge. And you know, when I looked at the Yale job, it opened up, not a lot of people wanted it. And to be honest, I'm not sure my soon to be boss wanted me, I think I was, I joke that I was the sixth choice out of five guys. But I think one of the reasons people didn't want the job, when I applied for it is that it just hadn't had a ton of success in it over 130 years of history. So I think in 130 years, they had something like, I think, nine double digit win seasons, which to me was couldn't be more fascinating. Like if this this could, you know, could you get it to that level meant as a single guy and not having to provide for a family at the time, I was completely all in. And I married my wife had a couple of kids had some losing seasons and started to freak out that I probably should have thought this through a little bit more. But in 2010, it started to work out a little bit a little bit. And then we made some strides working towards that goal, multiple double digit win seasons and where we are.
The story he shares about joining Yale despite their success over the last 130 years; and the challenge of turning this around was what drove him.
Paul Barnett 06:55
Now here we are indeed because of course in 2018, you you win the NCAA championship, but I was actually reading an interview with one of your ex players Ryan McQuaid. I think I pronounced that correct. And he said that the team had a slogan, and it was one only need everybody, you know, that sort of caught my eye a little bit. And I was wondering if you could tell us about it.
Andy Shay 07:15
The number one is representative of a million things in our program, we talked about one play at a time and acting is one and one ground ball one goal one play that, you know, may or may turn the game for you in a positive manner. And we also I have a I have kind of a pet peeve that we try and coach as best we can we try and coach the last three guys harder than for as hard as the guys who you know, get to play these guys that are on the end of your roster they go through, they eat their vegetables, just like everybody else. They don't get to enjoy dessert like the starters, do you know what I mean? And we feel like those guys become more important as your season goes on. Because if they give up and decide not to eat their vegetables in practice, then your team starts to suffer. So, you know, we try and coach those guys. And we try and impress upon them and feel very strongly that they are as important if not more important than the top into your roster. And for years, we would say that we need everybody and and one day, I don't know where I was or what when it happened. But it just the acronym kind of popped in my head. And they go with me, we're making a t shirt or poster who knows, when I thought we all need everybody. That's the that's the acronym right there. And we've, since every huddle, we break down, it's, you know, one on three, and it's on a almost every piece of clothing that we have, and my former players sign off their emails with that it's kind of cool. So it's just been an overarching theme. And it just kind of fits that acronym kind of fits to what we do,[PB3]
The team trademark ONE, which stands for only need everyone that the team use to guide their collective efforts, and how this trademark has stayed with his athleetees as they have goneee out into the world and taken on leeadershop positions.
The way he talks about eating your vegetable in training.
Paul Barnett 08:43
and have those players as they've left you and gone out into the world. And they have they taken it and applied it to their own lives.
Andy Shay 08:49
Yeah, I get I get a lot of that, you know, I get some text messages and some, you know, emails, sometimes in the middle of the night saying I can't believe how much this is applied to what, you know, what I do now, you know, guys in, you know, Wall Street or, you know, guys that have become doctors and those those types of things. It's just kind of, it's pretty humbling to hear that from from someone who's chosen a profession that I can't even wrap my head around and they they you know, they're applying the things that we did in practice.
Paul Barnett 09:18
I've heard you talk actually a lot about the importance of self direction and self motivation. But like you just referenced then I imagined that people that go to Yale are all high achievers, they're all very, very focused on on succeeding in their chosen fields. But is there a risk that their drive to succeed and be the best could be misdirected when they're at college?
Andy Shay 09:42
Yeah, you know, it's funny. That was I felt like that was a stumbling block for us. When we were trying to get this moving a little bit more is that there's these are kids that end up here that have been the top 1% of everything they've ever done. And it's I think it's probably a shock to the system when they aren't Maybe doing as well in schools they'd normally done or winning every game that they've always done or scoring all the goals or whatever. So, I think that this place, and in particular, it's a difficult transition, if kids hit failure, you know, they struggle a little bit. And to your point, you want to assign your kind of your self worth to things that you're successful, you don't want to be beating your head against the wall and not being successful. So, you know, early on, if we were going through a season where we weren't necessarily going to be in line to go to the NCAA tournament, some kids could get distracted, and attach their, their identity to something that wasn't part of lacrosse or part of academics or whatever. So what you get at a place like this is kids that are extremely high achievers, like you said, but yes, they, if you hit a skin, you got to be able to gotta be able to bring them back, which is sometimes tricky here,[PB4]
How he works with is student athleetes, many of whom are high achieveers in life and sport, when the first xperience the shock to theyr system of his joining his program.
Paul Barnett 10:52
at the compound effect is a core part of your coaching philosophy. And I understand also your parenting approach to, can you tell us about it,
Andy Shay 11:00
it's a book that we got introduced, introduced to our program a number of years ago, we try not to focus too far ahead, we try and focus on the one practice that's ahead of you, and just try and get a little bit better every single day. And that book is as we can point to lessons to the course of our season that validate their in Hardys book, we can tell when we're going to maybe under achieve in a game on the basis of the condition of the locker room, you know, if if our guys have decided to get a little bit sloppy in how they put things away in the locker room, then, you know, we can tell that we've got maybe a loss coming or a game or we're going under achieve. Similarly, if we're if our details are buttoned up over the course of you know, in our locker room, and then, for a given week of practice, we know that we've got a chance to overachieve relative to our talent on game day. And we talk about getting better every day. It's such a cliche in coaching, but the more you're in it, and the more you're you go through this, you realize it's just so unbelievably valuable. [PB5]
The compound effect which shapes noth his coaching and parenting philosophy. And the importance of hiabits within this philosophy/
And when I first started here at, you know, we spent so much time focused on our opponent, and we would take practice time to scout the opponent and, and do all these things. And it just over time, you would get worse, you know, your team would get worse, and you start to realize that really shouldn't be the focus. And it's, it's, it's simple, and it's cliche, but it's cliche for a reason. So, you know, we constantly present examples to these guys. Like, are you getting better today? Is it tangible? Is it measurable? Is it something that that you've worked on all week, and will continue to work on as the season goes on? And, you know, I think for us, we've we've been known to lose games early in the earnings season, and, you know, thrive late in the season. And the evidence is in our path. Over the course of that year, we're a much better team in April and May than we're ever in February, it's not even close.
Paul Barnett 12:54
And if someone was listening, and they wanted to apply this compound effect, just to their own life to just get a little better, would you advise them to start?
Andy Shay 13:02
I think that your habits, you know, when you get up in the morning, you know, what I try and do every day. And I'm I'm embarrassed to say this, because I feel like your life is just a series of falling short a little bit every day, you know what I mean? But I think that, that I try and keep habits every day that that are, I try and do five things. As soon as I get to the office every day that I don't want to do, you know, and I try and make sure that I create a little bit of momentum every day to do the things. The analogy, like I said, eat my vegetables in a work setting that that that's going to benefit me down the road. Because it's it's, you know, there's the the adage that you get that you're going to suffer one way or another. It's either the suffer of discipline, or the suffering of regret. So I try and do those things. But once again, I feel like I look back on it. I'm like, I'm just not doing a good enough job of of that over every day. It's a difficult balance. But I try.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 13:59
And you when you talk about your expectations of the players, you say, this is a quote, toughness and commitment, and being honest with yourself, that I'm really not telling those stories. I love the idea of not telling yourself ghost stories that caught my eye when I was looking at it. And I was wondering, is there an example you can share? Where you worked with someone to help them improve by getting past the ghost stories they were telling themselves?
Andy Shay 14:23
Well, I think it would reference to that that's a well, it's like anything, it's got a multitude of examples, but we are ghost stories are what it's going to take to to thrive here. Like we're not joking about the amount of lifting that we're going to need out of these guys. We're not joking about the amount of academic work that this place is going to take that this is going to be one of the hardest things you're going to go through. But on the other end is going to be an incredible experience. So the ghost stories, so to speak, are what we say about the process. Once they're recruited because we recruit here, you know, it's Yale University and it's it's now it's a The program, it's pretty high achieving programs. So those things are very, they're highly sought after. And kids could lie to themselves and say, I'm okay with the hard part. I just want that I want a great job when they get out of college. And I want to, I want to win a lot of lacrosse games, but we want to make sure that they understand that the things you have to do to contribute to that those successes are pretty, pretty difficult. And it's going to challenge you. And it's not going to be easy. Everybody, we have a saying in our office, anytime you anybody that walks out of the Rocky movies thinks they want to be a boxer for for a few hours, until they get punched in the face. And they feel like this is what I want to do. So it's easy to be fired up about that once you're once you're just finished watching the training montage. But if you really want to be a part of this program, are you going to lift as much as you need to lift and do the things academically that you're going to need to do to thrive here? And are you going to be able to run through a tough ground ball? And are you going to be able to, you know, keep all this up? If you're not actually playing? Are you going to be one of these last three guys in the rosters roster that contributes to the overall culture of our place? So that's, that's more in reference to that[PB7]
Paul Barnett 16:12
I'm interested and what kind of relationship do you need to have with these young men so that you're able to push and challenge them, as you just described, and then ultimately, win a national championship?
Andy Shay 16:22
Yeah, you know, I think that we try and once again, a model of what my father did, he was he's really hard on us and really hard on his players, but there's just a, there's an intrinsic desire to, to, for them to succeed. And I think if those young men see that, then they can appreciate where you're coming from when you're hard on them. And we want every guy to make it through the program and succeed and, you know, have it as a big part of their development and a big part of their identity here at Yale. They're not mercenaries and not showing up to win lacrosse games for the institution, they're here to to make it part of their kind of their learning process. And that's how I genuinely feel. [PB8]
And I think that I don't always verbalize it to the guys but you know, anytime a young man, you know, hit met with friction here. That's kind of how we, we bring them around like, Listen, this is this is about developing your whole self like it's not, you might not be the odds are, you're not going to be the guy that scores all the goals for us, no matter who you are. Even if you're our best player, you might not be that guy. And it's really not about that it's about getting better every day and helping move this program along to the point where we can win again, when the when the whole thing again.
How he wants his athleetes to develop their identity at Yale though a focus on their learning journey.
Paul Barnett 17:34
And what are you doing at the minute Andy to try and get a little bit better every day? What's on the top of your development plan?
Andy Shay 17:39
Well, we're trying to think of new ways to play in the offseason that are a little bit creative. We play I don't know if you know much about box lacrosse, but it's a it's a smaller field of play in a gym. It's a restrained learning theory, which is compound effect and talent go to, if I if I could have two books, that would be and only two books, that would be one of them. So we're messing with right now we're messing with the the shape of the goal that we shoot on. So what we'll do is we we want guys to finish a certain way. And we're going to change the shape of the goal and make it a little bit different so that we get them to shoot and try and finish it a different way, which is a little different than just the square six by six goal.
Paul Barnett 18:20
And yeah, I've got another question for you, actually. And I'd like to read it to you before I ask you the question you say, I really don't think of it in terms of leadership, to be honest with you. And I don't know why. But when I hear those phrases, and when I hear people talk about it, I feel kind of uncomfortable. And I was really intrigued because you've got such a leadership position. You're influencing your program, you're influencing a lot of these these young men who were in the team, but why does this concept of leadership make you feel uncomfortable?
Andy Shay 18:48
I don't know. Maybe Maybe it comes from my respect for that term. And and you work in a place like this, you coach these young men, and then over the course of their four years, you start to realize that they're going to do things that you don't have the capacity for. And it just gets it turns into this very humbling kind of position relative to them, that these these guys are going to be leaders of the world titans of industry, and they're going to cure diseases, and they're going to do things that are just mind blowing. And I think that I do recognize that I'm in a position of leadership. I get that. But I think I have a lot of respect for these young men that come through here. What they've done. I mean, I couldn't have gone to Yale, you know what I mean? I just, it's just not, it's just not me. I think that they, if I'm a small part and their development, then that'd be great. But I look at it as a small part, I guess maybe maybe it maybe that's misplaced and unfair to me. But that's that's kind of how I look at it.[PB9]
How respect is at the very ceentre of his approach to leadership.
Paul Barnett 19:46
When these young men email you in the middle of the night, when they message you. When they talk about the impact of their time with you. How do they describe the legacy you've left on them?
Andy Shay 19:56
Well, you got a young, like a young man who's you know what? One of our best players of all time, just sent me a text the other night, just saying that he's in his neurosurgery portion of his medical school. He said, I can't believe how the details are more important to you than they were to people in this field, which is mind blowing to him, and mind blowing to me. And maybe that's just his perspective. But I think that he, you know, we've talked about details a lot here. And I thought that was really humbling and amazing for him to write that. I think that he, I'm sure there's some some over romanticizing is, his lacrosse experience may have I don't think that the details on a lacrosse game are are as important as they are in neurosurgery but might have been a little bit of a trying to give me a little bit of a boost. I don't know. But it's certainly nice to hear that, that that's something that we talked about in his playing days. And he's looking back upon what he learned fondly and saying, Is it helping him and in medical school?
Paul Barnett 20:54
I wonder if it's got something to do with the physical and the mental toughness that you coach. I mean, I know physical toughness is very important in your program you talk about and I've seen videos where you talk about it. And it must be very easy to measure physical toughness. I mean, how much you benchpress how much you squat. But mental toughness must be different. It must be harder to measure, and harder to understand. How do you go about really getting to the heart of where someone is mentally?
Andy Shay 21:20
Well, I think we, we try and coach that we try and teach that I think it's something that is a learned skill. I think physical toughness to a certain extent is a learned skill as well. But I think mental toughness without question, we try and put them in positions where, you know, you're down to goals, and we have to collectively respond with mental toughness, that's, that's going to earn us to win eventually, three goals to win the game. So we are putting them in those positions constantly. But we don't we start with a pretty developed piece of clay when we recruit because we talked so much about how difficult it's going to be the strain on them. And we haven't watched practice, and we're not, we're not better than anybody else. With how we do this. I hate to I hate to talk like this, like we're the toughest team. We're not we're just trying not to be, you know, a soft team and a weak team. But we talked about as much as we do, because it's important in recruiting, we want to make sure our guys understand that it's going to be difficult. And the kids that sign up for that, I think, have it in them a little bit more. And they're they're able to be coached to be that type of mentally tough player that you need. [PB10]
And, you know, like I said in the recruiting process, we talked about it so much because we want them to be honest with themselves and say, Yeah, this is exactly what I want. Or no, it's not. Nobody's signing up for an ice cream social to come across here. It's it's, it's going to be difficult. And we want to make sure that they go in with both eyes open. And invariably one or two guys was fooling themselves along the way. But hopefully they make it through.
Paul Barnett 22:53
And it's been great to spend an hour with you tonight chatting I appreciate your time. I've loved hearing about lacrosse and I'll be watching on fondly from afar to see how Yeah, we go this season so all the best for the games ahead.
Andy Shay 23:06
Thank you, Paul. It's been great. Appreciate it.