Barry Dancer edit
Mon, Aug 21, 2023 6:26PM • 35:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, people, coaching, athletes, role, group, player, head coach, competition, great, team, program, developing, perth, hockey, individual, purpose, learnings, put, sport
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Barry Dancer
Paul Barnett 00:00
Barry danza Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Barry Dancer 00:05
Good morning, Colin, good to be with you.
Paul Barnett 00:08
Thank you so much for making the time today, Barry. And can I start by asking you where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far.
Barry Dancer 00:17
I'm at home. My wife and I live on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland. And it's a beautiful morning. So I've just been up and had some breakfast, and then a few chores and the beautiful day outside to enjoy when we're finished here. Well,
Paul Barnett 00:32
thank you for taking a little bit of time to us to talk about all things, hockey, Gold Medal, the Olympics and mental health and all the other issues we'll get into as we go along. But Barry, I want to start by just asking you You've coached in India, you've coached in Great Britain, and Australia, you've coached local hockey from all the way up from grassroots all the way up across youth teams to national teams. So I'm sure you've seen some good, or perhaps some not so good coaches along the way. But when you reflect back, what do you think the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Barry Dancer 01:12
Probably more some things about what they have in common. Obviously, they have athletes that are winners, have had a role in assisting those athletes become winners, primarily, I think because they develop very strong relationships with their athletes. They've been students of this sport over a long period of time. So they've got quite a strong and clear vision of what it takes to win, and the conviction to keep on that path and keep true to that path. They all have a strong sense of purpose and duty. And that results in such a strong work ethic. They're prepared to embrace challenges and some of the pressures that go with performing in a public arena. Certainly, I think a lot of them (great coaches) are prepared to make and have to be prepared to make difficult decisions, have the candid conversations that sometimes are very unpopular with individuals or groups. But always would be doing that in the best interests of the program or their athletes. And they're continuing searching for new ideas and new knowledge as a means of innovation and keeping ahead of the competition. So for me, that's sort of, that's some of if I look at the things that when I look at the great coaches I've had experience of working with that serving reading about their thoughts come to mind.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 02:39
Very, you were brought up in regional Queensland, I'm not sure if I can call Ipswich regional Queensland, but it's definitely a big town that's not a city. How did growing up there go on to influence your approach to leadership?
Barry Dancer 02:55
Well, I always consider myself very fortunate to have grown up and efficient, particularly the sporting community there and I and it has had a significant influence on my shorts on Life Community. Now I might act as a coach. So during my childhood, I probably started playing sports in as most people did in the primary school years. So through those years and into my high school had a significant influence because I was observing people behave, observing a lot of people giving a lot of their time as volunteers for the local associations and different coaching groups and whatever that was going on. I sort of people that stood on their principal, and we're here to make difficult decisions. And again, sometimes unpopular decisions for the best interest of the association or the club or the team that are responsible for a lot of senior players in the clubs that are associated with some of the organization's I was associated with developing great camaraderie within the group, but also very welcoming of new players, young players. And to me a lot of those behaviors, exemplify that identified some of the things that I saw are important in the community that make it thrive and the people that make it thrive. So I just think that was a model for me about not just how I needed to behave in the future, but if I became a leader in a group, how I needed to put those ingredients into that community.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 04:30
Then this idea of community starts to form a little bit I guess, in the latest stages of your, your international career. When you started coaching, you were still a player and um, what was the impetus back then to move you in that direction?
Barry Dancer 04:46
Well, again, my school years, I was always interested in learning and reading about significant events and how they occurred and what people did and particularly leaders as to how they influenced Some lead different things. And those things could be sporting groups, but they could be other endeavors. Then I just followed my nose into teaching how I think teaching was a bit about influencing others. But it's also a enjoyed the school environment as a shooting. So it was just what am I going to do when I leave school and there it was.
At the time I was becoming a teacher, I was also an international player. So my teaching accompany my international playing career. Towards the end of my international flying through, I decided to relocate to Perth. And the reason for that was about joining a larger pool of players as a training environment. And I thought, in those days without full time training, I just need to train with better players more regularly, just my development as a player stablish myself more on the national team and that was beneficial.
But what happened during that time in Perth is I got exposed to some coaching things. The local wa department sport rec was a leader nationally, at some coach development programs are operating life by coincidence with a person I live with the person who was also a car salesman introduced me to a video, Vince Lombardi and the second effort which a lot of people will know of. A few other things happen. So when I came back to Queensland agenda that year, basically to marry my now wife and that was a main reason for coming back. I started to take on more coaching roles. Instead of just coaching a club owner, school team, I ended up coaching rep team and then it went on and on and on. So all of a sudden, it was taking up more time probably than my day job. And I think it was that bit of a turning point in that time in Perth and then coming back. The purpose I went to Perth was developed more as a player when I came back, taking on more coaching roles actually was detrimental to my playing career. And more time on the hockey pitch directing and organizing and coaching and developing myself and and then serendipity took her hand because at the end of the 80s I was approached to take on a role as a full time coach at the IES so that was a big turning point an opportunity to turn what was a passion and a part time role into a full time role. So I was fortunate that the system here in Australia had matured, there were coaching positions and poppy where there hadn't been previously. So all of a sudden I'm there full time coaching.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 07:50
It's a great apprenticeship. It starts obviously back in Ipswich. And as you've just said, There you didn't mention the Olympic silver medal, of course, but you pick up the Olympic medal and your coach, you move all along and get Australian Institute of Sport. But what I wanted to ask this is a great apprenticeship but what I wanted to ask you actually very was what did this apprenticeship not prepare you for when you became a head coach for the first time?
Barry Dancer 08:18
And things that stand out. I could have taken more time in terms of recruitment, rather important roles in our support staff. I felt pressured to make a couple particularly quickly because of impending competition and so forth. I certainly could have had a significantly better role in developing the culture within the group is an interesting time for hockey in England because they just got lottery funding. They were moving out a very amateurish rivalry internal rivalry between coaches was rampant. because they've been coaching against each other in club competitions, and now they are vying for national positions in whether they're in a network or whether they're in the same coaching national coaching roles. There was still rivalry within the playing group, there were different divisions built around club competitions that have been well ingrained, and therefore there wasn't a national sort of focus in their minds and togetherness yet. So I could have dealt with some of that more in the early days. [PB4]
And then also, I suppose, key thing for me was about, I learned a lot more about what it takes to win at Olympic level, because it was still in its growing pains and formative years that system. So from nobody, all of a sudden, after two or three years that I was there, with the performance director, there's about 70 staff. But the maturity of that system was limited. So you know, there was a an attitude of, well, we've got some excuses here. Now, we haven't quite got the support system in place, how can we be expected to win an Olympic medal. And so the expectation wasn't as high as it needed to be, because it wasn't built on a genuine belief that had been developed over some time and developing a no excuses mentality on the part of the players and support staff in a team based on providing them with the, I suppose the level of support they require, which has to be at least the equal of the opposition was a key learning curve. So having all those pieces in place, there's something that I took away and drove me to make sure we had all the pieces in place when I took on the next role, whether that be England after 2000, or whether she VR to 2000.
Or, as it turned out, Australia, after 2001 of the key things for me was learning also about the need to manage up. Because I felt I was, again relatively inexperienced, and didn't take that as a necessary step and learned from that experience, the need to really manage up and develop expectation on the part of the people that oversee the program and on the program as well.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 12:11
As donating story. Before we get the gold medal, though, and the breaking of the Kabara curse, I want to just pause for a minute because you talk about, you know, all these learnings you've had you referenced in his management skills. And yet, I was listening to an interview you did just recently. And you describe the role the head coach now as being a facilitator. And I'm I'm just wondering, it's a big leap from, you know, describing these management skills, you have to now being able to describe the roles being a facilitator, and I'm wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about that.
Barry Dancer 12:48
Well, I suppose those comments were driven by ultimately what I saw the role of okay chairs. And that primarily was a developer of people, whether it be the athletes, the support staff, anybody else involved in the program. When it comes down to nuts and bolts, it's about developing the people. So it's how you see your role as a developer and assisting the development of people. When we came back to Australia, our daughter who has some disability instances supported by cerebral palsy Association, and why. And one of my great learnings we're taking her to those sessions, with a morning was seeing the case management meetings around her development, and how they approached with a group of service providers. An individual plan confiding input from the parents, Amy at that stage was probably only about three years of age at the year about three. And they were very consultative, there was no clear leader, they shared the leadership around the table. And those discussions happen. So that case management scenarios sort of morphed into my role as a head coach, facilitating those meetings around an athlete's development. So Colin batch and I would meet with an athlete regularly to review their development. But really the service team around that athlete would play the role of collaborating, identifying priorities as well. And so, to me, it wasn't one person with the athletes on an individual basis or one person with a staff member or an individual basis. It was a collaborative approach. And I saw my roles are head coaches, make sure we've got the right people, good people around an individual that can provide the guidance and support they need. And then having facilitated that group of people, the process that goes on with that stuff I think about the ultimate thing, for me, they often think is to get the athlete or the person whoever it is to the stage where they can self direct their own development. Let's get the athlete to that point and when They can not only self direct their own development, but they can have a, say and a fair bit of input into self directing the program and how it can move forward and, and make the group better. So I suppose if I think about the facilitating roles, yeah, I think there's leadership, there's guidance, there's whatever. But ultimately, if we focus on the individual, and what our purpose, our daily purposes, then I become a facilitator. Amongst other roles. That's not the sole role, obviously.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 15:35
You mentioned daily purpose there. And you also referenced the word purpose in the opening when talking about great coaches. Did you get to a point in your time as the head coach of the kookaburras, where you could define that purpose? Did you put it into words?
Barry Dancer 15:51
My personal purpose? Yeah, yes. Yeah. And I don't think it's interesting how you reflect and how you think, as a person, and at different stages, you're moving and your own growth. So it's easy to look back and reflect and think about things that caused you to change. And it's important to do that. And so if I think about my daily purpose, it's very clear to me and I have written notes about today. And it probably comes back to one of the things that will crop up later, it's my daily purpose was about assisting people grow, assisting the collective growth as much as the individual and not forgetting the individual. So a key thing for me was firstly, coaching, so identifying that they are serving people, as well as organizations achieve goals. And if you get to the nuts and bolts of it, it's really about the individual growth that you're focusing on most. And then the collective growth. When people in, let's say, more professional sports, by athletes in and identify the pieces that can win together in a puzzle, they're talking a lot more about the collective growth. But I'm sure like, they don't neglect the individual growth of the people either. So I always come back to that individual growth aspect. And as a result of that collective growth or growth will happen anyway.[PB7]
Paul Barnett 17:27
Barry, you were the you were the coach, you broke what was called the cooker. Baracus when you won the Olympic gold in Athens in 2004. When you were the coach, this is a team that is is Dre is draped in history. It's a story team. There are famous coaches that came before you and and there are many stories about those teams. But I'm really what I wanted to ask you about is how did you find this balance between looking back to create that sense of belonging. But also orientating the team forward so they could go on and break this curse that had been around the team for?
Barry Dancer 18:03
Well, I think business about sense of belonging is sort of looking back, there's no doubt about that, considering the past. And the sense of belonging is something that is particularly a strong motivator motivates us all we want to belong, we want to feel valued all of those things. So for our group, it was important for people to understand and valued the privilege of being part of the program and the responsibility that went with that, but not let the responsibility overtake you, which was part of this. Kookaburra curse maybe, but it's also about people feeling valued and to understand that the feel valued and respected, they had to earn that through their own effort and commitment. So the need for belonging and not beating people down became an extremely motivating factor in our group. And for me, they go hand in glove, I mean, to look forward. It's interesting. I used to drive to the ice hockey unit in Perth, and one of the entrance into the Curtin University precinct. You drive in and on the side on a limestone wall. There's a comment from John Curtin, I don't know, I've never found where it's written. But it says look forever forward. And it's a great couple of words that I've learned the treasure, as I've probably come up later in conversations that look forever forwards always about maybe people have different connotations of that. I think you can only look forward if you understand the past and build on the past. So for me linking that past getting the balance right to use it as a motivator. It's an important part of what we wear as a cooker Paris. And I think one of the values that really the cooker parents still to this day is important to them. understand the history, the responsibility that goes without leave the legacy in a better place than when they arrived. All of those things are important. And I think that feeling of being involved in something greater than just now and me, being involved in something that's longer, large theme that has a straighter and LIDAR impact is a significantly important thing, but everybody in life, so for the book of ours, and the organization around it, the hockey in Australia. Now, I think people want to build on that tradition, and it's a very proud tradition.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 20:37
Very off got a, I've got a quote from you, I'd like to read before I ask the question. And you say, because there's many times in my career, where I've got in the way, and as a result caused players to maybe question their own ability, and to have a lack of confidence. And so really, I need to be careful that I'm not intruding in a way that demotivates and was a great quote, and I was very much intrigued about it. I'm wondering what advice you have now, on making sure that you don't get in the way as the leader.
Barry Dancer 21:12
I'm not sure what those particular quotes related to but I've got a suspicion. And maybe I can make some comments about when I think and how not to get in the way and why not to get in the way. But I'd also like to comment about and coaches need to make a deliberate decision and a well considered decision about the need to get in the way and how rapists do that.
So for coaches, it's particularly important to don't get in the way in competition, get in the way of the athletes thinking, particularly in some way undermining their confidence. So I think certainly the the aspect of competence and providing confidence for the player and assisting them remain confident, not cluttering their minds in competition, not distracting them, not creating static is so important. So for me, some of the things about keeping out the way I think they'd come back might are related to when I publicly criticized a player or two in the middle of an Olympic competition and almost derailed our Olympic success in 2004. an inadvertent comment in a press conference after the game that I thought there's nothing because a player is probably or two had acted against some of the team ethic. But it was evident two days later, when a player came to me on the front of the next smash to say something like, Do you think I'm a prima donna. And what I hadn't realized was in those days, even at the birth of things like Facebook, that didn't even exist, I think until 2004, things can spread, they can become viable. And he was significantly affected and distracted in the middle of the Olympic competition and demotivated and, again, a lot of static in his mind. And that rings true with other things I do or would have done or could do to get in the way. And some of those are about, I believe, trying to make adjustments to technique and provide too much information during competition as well. And just sometimes that's necessary, sometimes adjustments in technique, something that needs to be given by way of advice, it's important in the middle of competition, that it's a very dangerous area to go into, because it could cause doubt and therefore undermine confidence. So that's something I would suggest, be wary of some helpful behaviors, to keep out other ways yourself, behave in a calm and composed way, which provides confidence to the athlete, certainly about ensuring the environments remove unnecessary distractions for them, or minimizing the distractions around the competition. [PB9]
And again, in your role, just really remaining very focused and present. Not yourself getting distracted by things and therefore causing a distraction to the athletes. If I think about the comment I made earlier about deliberately distracting or deliberately not so much distracting for causing down swings, coaches, challenge athletes, and we talk about the push and pull of coaching and how it needs to be really well managed. So for me, it's a necessary skill and a necessary ingredient, good coaches that they understand how best to do that. But I sense that a lot of that's done away from the competition environment. A lot of that's done when there's time for the athlete to absorb the self doubt, the question themselves, to be able to think about what the coach has said and then discussion, co design, the way of getting better in competition haven't quite got the times. You're in the heat of the battle. So one of those things are done away from the competition environment, but it's necessary for those athletes to become uncomfortable. As people often talk about, to feel that they can get better, there's a humility to accept that they need to get better. But then also, the older the self doubt that comes with that. So, I think there are times when we need to get in the way. But I think, for mine, it's a, it's, it's probably one of those skills that some makes coaches better than others, it's ability to sometimes understand best, when and how to challenge. And it's really only comes about from experience, but it also comes about from a trait knowledge of the individual. And, again, a lot of that has to do with the relationship built relationship you've built with your athlete over a long period of time.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 25:47
Very you've spoken about the mental health issues you face as a coach is, there's actually a great video you did, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But I wanted to ask you what you've learned about the impact of stress, and how it can be better managed when you are a leader.
Barry Dancer 26:07
personally talk about that. And I probably learn a lot more about stress effects on coaching, burnout, having gone through the experience. And I'm so thankful that I hear people talking about this now and I'm very keen to help people go down the path that I went down. And so a lot of my learnings are not so much from going through it, but from actually learning about it afterwards.
\So the things I learned about it, since they're about it is cumulative. It can be very insidious about the build up in your body. I've learned about cortisol and the accumulation of cortisol in my body, I believe over a long period of real NPS as a head coach. I'm certainly as I said, keen to help people from my experience, the things that I would have done better. And there were a lot of them. But the key advice I give us about yourself breaks, give yourself time, give yourself the opportunity to do things for yourself that break that relentlessness of coaching. And of course, they can be varied. For me, it's now things about giving myself time in retirement, it's a lot easier. Obviously I'm not working the six and a half days a week or self absorbed is something that family activities, golf, the garden physical exercise are particularly something that I would recommend that I didn't do well back then. And clearly be prepared to delegate and trust in the delegation to other people. So you're not always feeling your code or drive the program that other people become drivers of the program and certain portfolios they might have. [PB11]
And the final comment I'd make one of the learnings key learnings is that coaching like a lot of other professions is a caring profession. And people who take it on can be very dutiful, they feel the responsibility of looking after people's and what goes with that sometimes is some personalities that are some of those people might be protectionist. Some of them also might be very analytical. So when you put that mixture together, it's quite a dangerous mixture. And so I think the coaching profession, like other caring professions, and particularly the types of personalities that take on coaching, there's a potent mix there. That's quite dangerous. And so that's why I think people in organizations need to be always asking the question about the development of their coaches, but also their life balance. And coaches, including myself, ironically, talk to their athletes all the time about life balance and ensuring that they got it right. And ironically, people like myself, didn't adhere to that. So I really would encourage coaches and people within organizations who are responsible for the development of those people who are coaches, really heed the messages that are out there now.[PB12]
Paul Barnett 29:25
Or your son Brent actually went on to play for Australia as well. And I'm not sure if he's coaching actually but if we did come to you, and ask for advice about coaching, and wondering what the top one or two things are that you'd tell him
Barry Dancer 29:43
well, he hasn't taken on coaching per se. His day job at the moment is the general manager of a meat processing company in Busselton. Wh that meat processing plants got about 600 employees He's actually leading and managing a much bigger organization than I lead as a national head coach. And we have occasional chats, particularly Wednesday on our I have our daughter visit. And we've got some time to chat occasionally about his role and the daily challenges of what that means and various aspects associated with his role at that company. And so, I've never sort of we talk about the daily challenges and what's ahead. But if I think about a young coach, or a young leader, as our son is, two things come to mind deserve victory, which is about paying the price, which is a Vince Lombardi thing, paying the price.
But for me, it deserved victory was a poster of chamber force in the war museum under white and white or whatever, way back when I visited London long time ago. And it was supposed to with Winston Churchill, pointing his finger at the rest of Britain, we're now in the depths of mostly the Battle of Britain. And so it's about Yeah, you're gonna have to put in the hard yards, you're gonna have to make personal sacrifices for the sake of other people in your organization, on a day to day basis. But then the other thing that comes to mind and in life, you'll always look for the adages or the little four liners or whatever you want to go, I do and I developed a little quote that I put on the fame on my desk at the IRS, when I was still head coach there, basically said, what I have done, what have I done today to improve the way that I or my people do things? What have I done today that sort of are changing the way we do things sort improvement? So to me that was about, again, bringing me back to what's my purpose? What's my core role here? As a coach, it's about improving people. It's about improving house as a group. It's about every day focusing on that. And I think that is a victory one's about how you how much you prepared to pay, how much to say no to do certain things in your life to allow you to focus on that role really well. So for me, that's sort of probably core things that I would say to branch as to the younger people, and how things happen. I took a photograph of the Desert Victory poster. And I asked, I actually put in the frame and I sent it to Brent once. Because to me, that was probably as a parent a key message I[PB13]
Paul Barnett 32:36
love that idea of a desert Victoria, I'm gonna look up that picture of Churchill and see exactly what it looks like. But very if I could ask just one last question, after a lifetime spent, as you've said, teaching, learning helping, you've referenced words like thrive and influence all through this interview. But after a lifetime spent in the sport, at its pinnacle end of the grassroots level, what do you hope is the legacy that you are leaving behind?
Barry Dancer 33:09
So my comment would be when I came to the sport as a player, and that was in Ipswich as a youngster, or when I came to the sport as a full time coach, sort of in 1990, which was a few decades later, as a coach, there were a lot of people that had laid a foundation before me, so to allow me to succeed and improve as a player, but also to then go on to the leaders program, and hopefully bringing future success. So if I think about coming to that, it's first recognizing that 55, we said earlier about recognizing the past, understanding of responsibility, what your purpose in life is, and therefore, what you're going to do for others as a means of creating opportunity in the future.
So I think firstly, fundamentally, my hope was in the environment that I created with others, is that people could grow, people could thrive, people could, at the end, be better people for the experience of living in that environment, working with those people. And I suppose the hope I had also was that some of the things we did in my time with other people in creating that culture was about setting some cultural norms. That better positioned the program for other people to take it on to another level. And if I, if I can be a bit of a pain here, I take great pride in looking at the current group of athletes. The program that Colin batch has been leading since 2000, and whatever 17 And the way they approach the Tokyo Olympics, and the cultural norms in that group are outstanding, and it's so disappointing for their crib to miss out, just by a whisker in Tokyo, but to me, I take great pride in that and I lightly I think some of the legacy we left, the group that I was around back when I finished has been a stepping stone for that group to take it to another level.[PB14]
Paul Barnett 35:10
Very, it's been wonderful talking to you today. It's been really great. Listen on, focusing on purpose and connecting, I think with why you are doing something and where you are in that moment. I think it's a really strong lesson for everyone listening regardless of whether we're in the corporate world or the sporting world or helping out in community based groups. So thank you very much for your time today. I very much enjoyed it. And I wish you all the best for taming that garden which I can see behind you there and getting it into some kind of shape. Ready for this bring
Barry Dancer 35:44
me up now. Well, thank you for the opportunity and good luck with your settling and the family and relocating back.
Paul Barnett 35:50
Thank you, Barry