Ben Davison edit
Tue, Jul 11, 2023 6:38PM • 30:56
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
boxing, fight, fighters, coach, elite athlete, watch, put, talk, risks, professional, gym, amateur, life, high performer, pressure, happened, approach, key, day, level
SPEAKERS
Ben Davison, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Ben Davison Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast. Good mortgage yourself.
Ben Davison 00:06
So
Paul Barnett 00:07
great to chat with you. I have been a big fan of yours I've been trying to get you for over a year. So I'm pretty excited about today's conversation, then something really simple to get his going. Where are you in the world? And what have you been doing so far?
Ben Davison 00:19
I'm in my gym, which is in Essex. And just day in, day out, same thing, working away with with the boxers and the fighters I'll work with who will be in soon, and just helping them achieve their goals?
Paul Barnett 00:39
Well, we're going to talk all about those goals, because there's, they've achieved some pretty lofty ones already as we go along. But I wanted to just wind the clock back a bit, actually. And just start at the start, which is talking about your dad in the gym, but also, maybe firstly, just some of the other great coaches, you've seen up close. I know you've worked with Freddie Roach, one of the greatest going around at the minute, but you've also seen some other ones up close and personal. And I just wondered, Ben, from your experience, what do you think the Great Ones do differently? That sets them apart?
Ben Davison 01:12
I think everybody's got a unique approach, ideology, philosophy, and these kinds of things. But I wouldn't say I think you have to really spend time with somebody to really get to understand their they're approached at Outlook. And now that would differentiate from yours, a lot of conversations would need to take place. And I think that big a big part of it, is the application dedication,
I think that there's a lot of people out there have a lot of potential in every walk of life, but a lot of it is application and how they're applying yourself and consistency and things like this. I think that that is probably the difference between your good coaches or your average coaches and your great coaches is that the great people and this is in any walk of life, in my opinion, really, the greats are able to hit a standard and maintain it and be a lot more consistent than than the others are. For example, a world champion might spa one day, or a great golfer might have a round of golf somebody one day, or a football team might have a match against another football team one day. And on this one day, the opponent may be able to keep up with them for one day, but can they sustain that same level, day in day out week after week, month after month, year after year? That is different between in any walk of life that is different between average good and great in my opinion.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 03:11
Then your dad boxers an amateur. And I've read where you grew up in the gym with him. And he's in your words. He's old boxes of byte tapes. But I'm wondering how this early experience being in the ring from such a young age being in the gym rather from such a young age, and it's gone on to shape your philosophy as a coach.
Ben Davison 03:32
I wouldn't say that. They really I would say that it grew my love for boxing. You know, putting on tapes of he loved Nigel band, he loved Mike Tyson tape to Sugar Ray Leonard, I remember that. I would say that the biggest impact on my style of coaching actually come from when I played football and a coach that I come across. When I was playing football, I would say that was the most influential thing. On my approach to coaching and my style of coaching.
Paul Barnett 04:11
Who was this person? What did they do that influenced you so much.
Ben Davison 04:14
So he's there, his name is Colin Reese. He works in football. What he just he simplified things so much that so what I remember one of those stands out in my mind, one of the first things he said was you know, there's only one but you hear all the stories. I could have done this. I could have done that. And he said, You know, there's only one thing that stopped me from playing for England and everybody was I didn't realize it, you know, he was at that level or he said I wasn't good enough, said the only reason that you guys aren't good enough to replan that level right now is the coach's fault and he took full responsibility. Is it because things are that simple. If that if you truly understand it, and the coaches have done their job properly, you'll be able to play at the top level and compete at the top level. And it was true, because when he would coach us, he would break it down. And it would be so simple. I knew exactly what he meant. And I could see that, and I just took that approach, and also took, you know, myself, as well as always desperate to be the best that I could be in anything that I did. So, when I did play football, I was probably middle of the road. You know, there was better players out there than me, but I was so desperate to be the best that I could be. I would watch a full football match and watch one player, go back, rewind it, watch the same match again and watch another player. Where is he? When the balls in this area? Well, you know, what positioning wise what decisions does he make here? What decisions did you make there? So I started to analyze things like that. In football before I took that approach to boxing.
Paul Barnett 06:03
I guess this theme of watching people and breaking down the game is very key to your philosophy. I'm gonna ask you about that later on. But I want to ask you first about this quote I've got from you. And you say a big part of it is maximizing my potential to be able to maximize their potential. That's my goal. And it really caught my brain because you know, I've never met you before today but your desire to improve yourself comes through all the time in these these interviews when people talk to you. My question though, is what are you doing right now? What's on your personal development list right now to help you improve and realize your potential
Ben Davison 06:46
everyday really doesn't stop you know, watch we've got a big fight coming up a rematch to one of my guys he lost his world title. And we've actually got the opponent gave him he's he's sombrero the war to the ring. We've got up there in the in the gym now hanging out just as motivation every now and then I look up at that just to remind myself know that we've got a job to do and, and that puts a bit of fire in my belly. And, you know, I'll be back what rewatching the first fight no matter how many times I've watched it, I'll be watching it again. Because I might spot something that I didn't spot the first time. And Butch is asked to put yourself through so much. Such a tough spot. Mentally, physically, emotionally preparation in the actual fire. That I almost feel a sense of responsibility to do the extra hours to stay out fight one more time to go through these details to have conversations with other members of the team to make sure that we're covering every bases because that extra percentage may be the extra percentage and make a difference in the fire.[PB2] [PB3]
Paul Barnett 08:01
It sounds very intense, though. I mean, I I realized that your athletes can die. Right? You've you've said it, you've said they're putting their life on the line when they go in there and you try to match that energy. But we were just talking before you know, you're you're a young father, you're trying to bring balance into your life. How do you mean as a guy who's running his own gym, he's leading a program? How do you renew yourself and bring energy back into your own life?
Ben Davison 08:29
Yeah, it's not the easiest. I mean, I think that there's a misconception of the lifestyle that is to be an elite athlete, you know, is this healthy, being an elite athlete is not healthy, or by any stretch of the imagination, but you have to put your body through again, mentally, physically, emotionally, all these things you have to put yourself through distress. Anxiety for a lot of people these things you have to put your body through to reach the top level and to push human performance to its maximum that's not healthy or by any stretch of the imagination. So yeah, the life that I live probably is unhealthy in a sense that there is a lack of balance so I do my best to try and balance it. But again, it's difficult because we're talking about how I'm trying to do that I was just talking to you there about rematch for one guy, that's one fight. There might be 10 other guys in the gym, they've got fights I've got to do that for 10 out of the guys and you know it's not all that full round and that's only a six round and that's a non title fight don't need to put the same energy into that we try and put the same energy into absolutely every fight that we've got coming up because without victory there is there is no world title in the end there is no so every fights a world title fight No, I'm trying to book a holiday at the moment. I'm on to the promoters you know when he's this guy fight and I'll Is it on this day because I want to drive on holiday for exactly that to be able to recharge the batteries relax. And I do feel like oh, you know, the but I will get more out of myself by having a break. Sometimes you do need a break. And I know that I probably do need one. I feel like that I've said that for a little while. But timing is very difficult. When you've got a number of boxes in the gym, it's a lot easier when you're training one or two guys, for example, are trained Tyson fury and Billy Joe, they're probably booked twice a year. So it was a lot easier to manage out, find a bit of time to relax and have some family times and downtime to set up diet, but now my own gym and about, you know, seven, eight different boxes is difficult to find that and a lot of them are at the development stage where they box in four or five times a year. So it's very difficult to try and find that time.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 10:54
In point boxing, absolutely fascinating the the way that people push their body to the limit, but also push their mental skills to the limit as well as the courage required to step into the ring. But I wanted to ask you actually, how does the pressure differ when it comes to being the favorite in a fight versus being the underdog?
Ben Davison 11:19
Yes, I think a lot of fighters struggle with that. Because so for example, if you're going into a world title fight, you've never had a world title fight, there's almost the level of expectation isn't the same. Not sure if he can do it, you know.
So a lot of fighters, I find when they are the underdog thrive on that. Less, almost less pressure, very similar to have some five and a half the home advantage. They, it works against them. Some fighters, when they have the home advantage, it works for them, some fighters will like to be the favor. But a lot of fighters that I've worked with, they don't like to be the favorite because it brings added pressure added expectation, that's the key word there is expectation. And that can bring a different type of pressure. Now, you need pressure, need pressure to perform. If I was to go and run one mile, you said, running as fast as you can, and I ran it on my own, I can guarantee you that if you put some competition next to me, I would run it quicker. That's just human nature. So you do need competition, you need pressure to be able to perform at your best. But it's managing that and every individual's different when it comes to that.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 12:50
There's another aspect of boxing, which I find fascinating. It's the management of the ego. So there must be moments in a fight when a boxer gets caught off guard, and they get hit unexpectedly. And I'm really curious, Ben, how do you work with them to ensure that in those moments, they don't let their ego take over and take unnecessary risks?
Ben Davison 13:15
Well, that's often so often you find that that would be a habit from an amateur turning professional, because maybe they're boxing, three three minute rounds. So if we was to use the analogy of a marathon or sprint, an amateur contest is almost a sprint. So if you lose a moment for so for example, you get hit with a shot, and you've lost a moment there. Often you'll find amateurs when a when that moment back as quick as they can, because it's a short timeframe that the fight has taken place for they don't want that being remembered as a big factor in the round. So they will quickly try to get back very different in the professional ranks. So longer contest, often the IQ is a lot higher in the professional ring, an intelligent fighter that knows that every time I land something, they are instantly trying to get that back, they will land something and set the chat for you to try and get that moment back and bring you on to a shot. Now, the gloves are different from amateur to professional. So you don't want to be taking risks and getting hit with certain shots that you might get hit with an amateur gloves that are going to have a lot more of a different effects in professional gloves. So that is actually something that you have to learn very early on. Otherwise, you can end up taking risks. You don't need to take an even as I was saying with the gloves, you know with the small gloves doesn't take much to have an impact, impactful effect. So you don't want to be taking silly risks and letting your ego take over
Paul Barnett 14:54
and pain when you're training them. Do you talk a lot about ego does it? Is it something that you actively Talk about with your fighters and managing it.
Ben Davison 15:03
Everybody's different, you might sometimes say, you know, again, it's how you put it first. So for example, we've been having a young prospect of ours far in a world champion, helping him prepare for, for his fire. Now one of the key things for me is, I do not want that lag, though he's only had five fights 19 years old. I do not want him going in there. And it looks good. But when I say it, looking like an amateur versus a professional, that would look like this. The amateurs doing well for 234 rounds, and then very quickly fading and the professional taken over, that would probably happen, because the amateurs tried to start too fast to try to convince himself to convince the opponent, I can do it at this level. Very amateurish, I would not, that would be the worst thing for me. So that that was the way I kept putting it across. What it means is, you're not going to win it every single moment. In a professional contest, over 12 rounds. Now I've had I've had fighters prepare for fights, but we know that the opponents desperate to win every moment, every single moment. And that has been their downfall, we have actually GamePlan for that he will try to win every moment with gameplan. towards that. So you know, that was key for me. So I didn't specifically mention the word ego. But I was pushing the narrative that I do not want this to look like an amateur and a professional, I want you to look at eight rounds, I want you to look like a professional that can more than hold his own. But I want you to be able to sustain it for over eight rounds. So if that means conceding a moment, not a problem.
Paul Barnett 16:51
And there's this theme in your story, which I find very interesting. And you've said on multiple times that you believe you have superior skills when it comes to watching fights and breaking them down. I've also heard you say that you're a very good judge of character. Now it seems that being able to read the fight or read people, is in fact, one of your key skills, one of your key leadership skills. Where did it come from?
Ben Davison 17:18
I think that again, ability to to study the film and analyze and watching I think that come from just desperately wanting to be the best that I could be when I was playing football when I was boxing. Now what can I do? What can I take from this fight? What What can I? Why What Why are they you know that, that my mindset when I was looking at them would be? Why are they making decisions that they're making. As opposed to, oh, that was a good shot, I'm gonna copy that shot that punch that punches. To me, as mad as this may sound or irrelevant. It's more so is the application because every every box that you come across every boxes that competed can throw a jab or right hand and left or right Africa, etcetera, etcetera, they can throw all the punches. So clearly, that's not what separates the level is it? This decision making is the application. [PB6]
So I would say that come from that I would say that reading people, judge of character, I think that probably come from probably could have put an absolute on where that has come from, I would say experience lots of lots of different people. Even when I was young, I had an older brother that I used often hang around him and his friends, or at least try to Anyway, before we got while we took over Yeah, I don't know. I suppose. Harvey is that true as well, I understand that. You know, I will explain to people, the same things that I am seeing when watching a certain scenario in a fire. And other people can't that some people just can't see it. I understand it. You know, some things are a talent as well. So suppose
Paul Barnett 19:25
you've been very kind and your brother, I've heard you say before that he used to beat you up.
Ben Davison 19:30
They didn't beat me up a lot. But just you know, more brothers. You know, more were younger and older brother younger brother one, not the older brother.
Paul Barnett 19:39
No, I understand. Ben, you've disrupted the world of boxing with the amount of success you've had at such a young age. But I wanted to ask you wanted to flip it around. What's this taught you about the preconceived ideas that shaped so much in society today?
Ben Davison 19:56
Yeah, I mean, I think that No, I didn't box professionally. There's almost an idea that, you know, because somebody bought professional because somebody had success in the fight to become a world champion can be a great coach is not the case at all, at all. And that probably annoys and frustrates people that go on. And when motos and attempting to be coaches and things like that, you know, they probably don't like to hear that.
Or, for example, just on that point, again, sorry about people who have bought, you know, I've trained some of the best pound for pound fighters in the world. I will sometimes talk to them afterwards. More so a big part of my job data or my approach to coaching is making them aware and conscious of the things that they are doing, or what they should be doing or what is actually happening. Being conscious of it. In the room. I think that helps you become a better fighter. Oh, sometimes talk to them after the sparring or about a fight that they had or a scenario of a fight layout. They have not got a clue what happened. All instinct, all instincts and what they perceive to have happened is nothing like what actually happened. And, you know, a former world champion is being coached. And you know, I've started laughing before and he will laugh himself because he knows that terrible coach, absolutely terrible coach. And he's fully aware of that. So I think that again, talking about preconceived ideas, I think you don't have to have now I've boxed in been in around boxing my whole life. But again, I didn't box professionally. But don't think where does that come? So I had this conversation with Darren Barker as well, former world champion himself. Where does that end because I bought professional beyond boxed at this level. I bought professional but he won a British title, but they never never boxed on the world stage. I want to Well, Toby was never in the major fights. So where does that end? So because otherwise, it would only be people that won world titles and we're in absolute mega fights that I was in in a major fight, but he lost, never won on the big stage. Where does that argument and so I don't think I think again, preconceived ideas thing that that needs to be. You just have to take it for what it is. And if somebody knows they're boxed in, they know their boxing
Paul Barnett 24:27
being I'd like to ask you a question about a time in your life where you had to decide to step forward despite the risks and uncertainty.
Ben Davison 24:38
So when I was when I took the job on the dice and the understanding the agreement was that he was going to have four fights for June that fight before he got back into a big fight. That was the understanding that both were now at the very start of it. They were still suffering his mental health he was not going to have for Walmart for us and we were straight into a big fight at the time I was at the dinner table I was oh, that's not what I signed up for. And he was like, Yeah, but you're gonna get well paid. And he said, I said, it's not what I signed up for, is not what I signed up for. So he had to come back fights. And then he took his Deontay Wilder fight, and I was against it didn't, I didn't want that fight to take place. Not to say that I didn't think we could win, but I thought he was making the fight closer to where it needed to be had, he gave himself a little bit more time. Now I had this conversation with him. And he basically said to me, I'm doing this via with all the value. I want me to be there with me. I need you there with me far. I'm taking this fight either way. And I thought to myself here, you know, I feel like he's best chances are with me. So that was a huge risk for me, because had he got beat, I knew where to blame would have come straightaway, instantly. So that was a big risk, but at the same time, no risk, no reward. And sometimes you have to take the risks. And yes, it's difficult, it's hard pressure. There was a few times I think I was 2024, maybe 2425. Now I remember thinking a few times on my own thinking, you know, he could be over before even styled, if this goes wrong. And with Deontay, Wilder, anything can happen at any moment. So you know, there was a lot of pressure there. But again, you know, that's what brought out the just as the analogy that I was saying earlier about if I was to run a mile on my own, and used to put some competition next to me and made me level up, we may Tyson level up, and he put in a great performance.
Paul Barnett 27:02
bid for sure. We've all we've all seen that fight, then I can see the fighters coming in behind you. So I might just ask one final question, if I could know, I've heard you talk about Mike Tyson. And how as a boy, you heard him talking about customer. Great, he's great trainer. And thinking that you would like someone to talk about the impact you were having on them one day in the same way. And so I guess to finish, I'd like to ask you in the distant future when you do retire, and I did read somewhere where you said it will be 54, which was quite a quite a precise age. But when that day does come, what's the legacy that you hope you leave with the fighters? And how do you want them to describe that in that moment,
Ben Davison 27:46
the impact that I had, and help them, I hope that they talked about the way that I tried to help them just as much within the ring as I did outside of the ring. Life itself is difficult. Again, we spoke about how difficult life and being an elite athlete is, and how taxing that is. But life is, you know, that's long life itself for anybody. And I say that about being an elite athlete. I suppose that's being a high performer, a high performer in any walk of life and not just going to be athlete. To try to maximize your performance in anything that you do is very taxing very difficult to tough lifestyle. And that's without the difficulties that life can spring upon. People as well. So, especially these young athletes, that is actually difficult for them, because they started to start to receive a bit of fame, bit of acknowledgement, a bit of money. No, and one of the things that baffles me saying this because it's often it sounds small, but for a lot of these boxes, they're not from backgrounds with financially educated families. And you know, it baffles me how some of these guys that go on to these these post Olympic squads and GB squads and coming from scope everyday people they're not taught about taxes and companies and finances and these kinds of things. And so a lot of stress for these these young fighters because not having a secure income, like your average nine to five job that's stressful in itself. So anything can happen to these athletes at any point. You know, the career can be cut show a loss, injury. You've got to be financially smart as well. So, you know, there's lots of things that come with that Being a high performer being an elite athlete being a professional boxer. And, you know, I try to as much as I hope, you know, a lot of the time they don't see it because they get in before they get in and leave after they, you know, after they've left. And they don't see the extra hours are playing but on top of that, they talked about and understand how much I tried to help them outside of the ring as much as I do within the room because like I say, life itself is difficult. Just as just as boxing and being an elite athlete and a high performers.
Paul Barnett 30:36
It's been great spending an hour with you today. Thank you so much for carving out the time. your busy schedule. I know you've got that rematch that you're preparing for. But it's been fantastic listening to your take on leadership and I wish you all the best for the rest of the year. Your career ahead.
Ben Davison 30:53
Thank you very much and Joe