Championship Habits edit
Thu, Jul 20, 2023 5:05PM • 35:13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
athletes, habits, great, coachable, champion, world, love, years, book, obsession, practice, sports, talk, developing, powerful, people, coach, team, day, paul
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Allistair McCaw
Paul Barnett 00:00
Hello McCall. Good morning, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Allistair McCaw 00:05
Well, good morning to you. They're in Australia. It's a good evening from Florida.
Paul Barnett 00:09
Well, actually, why don't we start there else to tell us where you are in the world and what you've been doing so far.
Allistair McCaw 00:15
At home in in Boynton Beach in Florida, which is about 20 minutes south of west palm beach, about an hour north of Miami. It's funny they say when you when you live in Florida, you start in Miami when you're young, young. And then you gradually make your way up the coastline the older you get. So I'm getting higher and higher and higher. You know, you go from Miami to Fort Lauderdale to to West Palm Beach and more north. So I'm making my way up just had a birthday on Friday, actually. So. But great to be back. It's always nice to be back at home in Florida. Just returned from the UK as well, which, which was nice as well, but good to be on the podcast. Thank you, Paul.
Paul Barnett 01:00
Well, I let's do we've been chatting over the years. And I'm a big fan of the work that you do. And of course I love following you all around the world as you travel to some of these these great sporting organizations. And I'm hoping one day, the job might open up and say assistant nice to get to come along. Meet someone but but this interview is not about me it's a really want to get in to you and the latest book that you've written, which is which is a terrific read. It's called Habits that make a champion. And I wanted to just start with a really simple question, what was the impetus to put this book out? Well,
Allistair McCaw 01:36
if I look back at when I started in 2016, writing, my first book was seven keys to being a great coach. And that was a little bit of my journey in in my coaching career for for 25 years. However, there was a demand for, for a book for athletes, for players and athletes and teams. And I remember as an athlete growing up in South Africa, playing a lot of sports. And of course, this was pre internet times as well, where it's just super easy to look up something on the internet and get the answer instantly. You know, I always struggled to find good books to read, that could help me with the mental game and help me with preparation and motivation, and so on and so forth. So, you know, there was books out there already, but they were, you know, very scientific in terms of how the left side of the brain thinks and so on and so forth. And, you know, as an athlete, I just wanted practical answers as to how do I deal with nerves? How do I prepare for, for a race or for an event? How do I deal with maybe an opponent cheating all these types of things that can happen when you play sports, but I just wanted simple answers. So that was the brainchild to me writing champion minded, which which is I would say the bigger brother two habits that make a champion. And habits that make a champion is really a continuation of of champion minded where it's a very simple, easy way to read, it's 50 habits, everything from you know, the habit of good preparation, the habit of great self talk, the habit of consistency, all these types of things that can help any athlete of any level. So that's that's where the idea came from. Also, I would say with habits that make a champion this, the one of the small differences is I've learned to listen to this generation better, as we know, the generations are changing all the time. And, you know, I believe that the two most important things you can invest in as a coach or a leader are the generational codes, and emotional intelligence. Those are two key areas I believe that every coach leader should be investing in. But with habits that make a champion, it was really simple, easy to read, things that can help every level of athlete and I believe it's making a great impact already. So most grateful for that.
Paul Barnett 03:58
Well, I'm going to talk to you about some of the habits that resonated with me as we as we move through the interview bit something very high level to begin with. And I know that you work a lot with elite sports people and also elite organizations. But very simply, why are habits so important when it comes to success?
Allistair McCaw 04:20
Yeah, well, one of the very first quotes in the book and I have a lot of quotes in the book or is from John Dryden, where he says, First we make our habits then our habits make us and there's a reason why that is the very first quote in the book is because it's very powerful. It's very true as well. If there's something I have noticed in the most successful athletes, performers, people in the corporate world entertainment etc, is that they simply have better habits. It doesn't mean all their habits are perfect. They're human like us where we're you know, you make mistakes, and there's maybe one or two poor habits but they're more consistent with their good habit. They've developed habits that have helped them achieve successful, successful things and reach a high level.
And, you know, habits are something that really are conscious in the beginning. It's not easy to read a bad habit. For one, I love my chocolate after dinner in the evening, and that's that's a habit that I've had to cut down a little bit as well. So that's just a simple example of a habit. But I would say that's, that's really what it comes down to Paul is successful performers, high level athletes, people that are successful in the business world, for example, simply have better habits, and they're more consistent at those better habits.
His insight that the best athletic perfoermers in the world have better habits, not perfect habits, but ones that are consistently good.
Paul Barnett 05:48
Is there is there an example you can share with us of a story of a person or a team, who was able to improve their performance by taking a fresh look at their habits, and perhaps even instigating some new ones? Yeah,
Allistair McCaw 06:05
in my line of work, I'm very fortunate to consult and work with various teams and colleges, universities and individual athletes as well. So if I was to use one example, let's go from from the tennis world, with a player I've worked with for four years between 2014 and 2018 was Kevin Anderson. And Kevin reached number five in the world on the ATP tennis rankings. He reached the Wimbledon final in 2018. I think it was where he lost to Novak Djokovic, which is no shame there. And then he also reached the final at the US Open, where he lost to Rafa Nadal, so you know, to players that that are that have their pocket full of Grand Slam titles. But if we look at Kevin, you know, when we started in 2014, he was a very, already a very disciplined player. I respectfully say that he wasn't the most talented player I've worked with, and why I have so much admiration and respect that is because he was someone that had to work five times 10 times harder than any other player that I've worked with. And I've worked with the number one player in the world have worked with 14 Grand Slam champions as well. But Kevin stood up for me, because he was someone that had to maximize everything he had. You know, basically Kevin, I believe if he hadn't have developed great habits and I'm talking from sunup to sundown and he took ownership of them that's that's another thing as well he took full responsibility of it because I can't be there 24/7 watching over him for example, but you know, from his wake, wake up time to the breakfast study the breakfast that he would have, you know, he prepares breakfast with different seeds and nuts and all these things for a good 1015 minutes to make a cereal every single morning before he had come to practice he had do his is prehabilitation work which is your firm rolling, you're stretching your your mobility work, to leaving on time for practice to being there. Well on time, his warmup was 45 minutes, it was very detailed. And I can go on and on and on. And these are what we talk about world class habits. They're they're difficult to do. They're monotonous you know this, this is something that he would get up and do every single day for four years. So that's an example of a an athlete that was a really a good player but was able to take himself Too Good To Great through developing better habits and being more consistent in them for example. You know, I always always like to say that the the average do it sometimes. The good do it most of the time, the great do it all of the time. And that is something that Kevin took himself from being good to great from doing it most of the time to doing it all of the time. And that's an example I'd say from an individual athlete, working with teams. One of the teams I worked with just pre COVID was Paris and German, the French, the French football team, I worked with some of their coaching staff and performance team as well. And already a very successful club, of course, in the world of world of football, but some of the habits that we changed there, there was just the consistency in communication, collaboration, developing small habits on a daily basis that helped them function better as a team because you know, you're dealing with 2030 backroom staff and one of those those big teams. You know, they have seven physiotherapists, they have four sports scientists, you know, they just have a host of people. So, changing the habits in terms of learning how to communicate better learning how to collaborate better. Working together as a team by being more self aware of of themselves, and also socially aware, which is important. So those were changes that really, really helped the backroom staff, so to say, of Paris and German.
Paul Barnett 10:17
I was just listening to you. I'm wondering when to habits become obsessions? And does that line at times become a problem?
Allistair McCaw 10:30
You know, Conor McGregor is obviously very, very well known in the UFC. Fighting says, you know, that the best are obsessed. And I think it was also Steven Gerrard, the former Liverpool captain and England captain who, who also said, you know, every single day, I was obsessed at practice, I had to be the best I had to win that next tackle, I had to, to, you know, outwork, my teammates, even though my team, they were my teammates, they're still in a way opponents for me. So you get to you get to understand the mindset of a champion. And the obsession they have with developing great habits and being consistent as an N, and I'm gonna probably use that word quite a lot in this in the show is just consistency. It's one thing having habits, but the more consistent they are that the more powerful they will be, and the more positive outcomes and results results that you'll get.
But if I look, look at myself, Paul, when I was a former athlete, I competed in five World Championships into Athlon. And I was two time national champion. You know, if I look back at it now, it's crazy to think what I would do, and I was obsessed. Every single day, I would think about it 24/7, you know, everything I put in my mouth food wise, it would be, is this going to make me take me closer to my goals? Is this going to take me closer to a world championship or further away? So that is a kind of obsession. You know, I didn't have fast food for years, I even remember on Christmas Day at my parents having just lean lean chicken and rice, while they were having, you know, the traditional roast beef and the gravy and everything else, you know, that's that's obsession. And those are those are habits that that I built. You know, anybody that's reached a very high level in anything poor, does have some type of perfection does have some type of obsession. They have very highly disciplined habits. Because in all honesty, there is no other way to the top in a particular field without having those those traits.
The idea that obsession is a common trait among the top peerfomers. And this mindset helps them develop great habits.
Paul Barnett 12:42
Well, let's talk about one of those traits, in particular. And in the book, you talk about the importance of being coachable. And you give the example of Michael Jordan who said that his greatest skill was being teachable. Now, why is being coachable, so important?
Allistair McCaw 13:00
You know, if I see what the difference is between, again, we talk about good and great athletes is that you can be very talented. You can be at a very high level. But the only way you're going to improve is your ability to be teachable, your ability to be coachable. And I think it was Steve Kerr of of the of the warriors, the NBA NBA team back I think this was back in 2016 2017. I could be stand to be corrected when they won. I think their second NBA title, consecutive title, and they asked Steve Kerr, who's, you know, for me, one of the standout coaches in not just basketball, but in sports. What made Steph Curry so, so good, what was it about him? And you know, Steve Kerr really put it down to one, one answer and he said he's just so coachable. No matter how good Steph becomes, he still wants to get better. And you know, he he asks me questions at every practice, he after practice, he asks me, you know, how did I do? What can I do better? How can I get better, for example, and that's something in that I actually mentioned in the book habits that make a champion pool is that the best demand feedback, they don't just wait for it from from their coaches or from from their managers, they ask for feedback. And that's the only way that you get better. That's the way you speed up the process of becoming better at a certain craft or what you do is that you're asking for feedback. And that's what I've seen in some of the best athletes as well. You know, just talking about Kevin the, the, the tennis player, he would be someone that would be continuously asking questions. Another passion of mine is Formula One. And you know, Michael Schumacher, of course is undoubtedly one of the greatest drivers if not the greatest driver Over. And you know, he took a poorly performing Ferrari. And they said he was crazy going to Ferrari because you know, the car was always breaking down. It was always it was always trouble. And he made that a championship winning car. And one of the qualities of Michael was that he was very curious. He was very inquisitive. He, they said that he knew, knew absolutely everything about the car, the feedback that he was able to give his team. You know, after taking the car out in the lab, that's what made that car so good. And that's what made him such a great driver is that Michael was coachable. The Steph Curry's were coachable. The Roger Federer is for example, as well. And gosh, I have so many stories that I could go into. And I know we're you know, we don't have all the time in the world. But I remember being in Dubai a few years ago, and Roger trains in Dubai, I used to train in Dubai in the offseason, while he was still playing. And I was working with a player there who was actually number two in the world at the time, Svetlana Kuznetsova. And Roger was practicing next to us every single day. So I got to see Rogers practices for basically two to three weeks, every December. And I always just been, I was always just amazed because at the time, he was number one in the world. And I think at that stage, she had won maybe 15 grand slams, 1415 grand slams, this is a few years ago. And, you know, there he was, there was a lot of talking in the practice. And he was just asking questions. What do you think of this? What do you think of that how to improve the drop shot, how to improve? thinking, this guy is number one in the world. And he's continually asking questions, and when he feedback, he's not resting on his laurels, he's not sitting back. And that is what makes these kinds of athletes such a standout is that we only see them at, you know, Grand Slam sundae final or the World Cup, or whatever it may be. But we don't see what goes on behind the scenes is that these athletes and these high performers are so coachable. And they're willing to listen. And you know, this is this is something that I tried to pass on to university athletes and college athletes who are sometimes not that coachable is that is the key to taking that next step and being the best that you can be.
The stories he shares about Michael Jordan, Michael Schumacher and Roger Federer to explain the importance of being coachable.
Paul Barnett 17:17
One of the other things that
caught my eye in the book, Aleister was, was this line, and you say, quote,
you're not born mentally tough. You choose to be, it's a skill that is learned
and developed. And I don't know why it caught my eye, I guess I thought mental
toughness was actually something that some of us are born with. But I was
really fascinated in the back end of the settings where you say it's something
that can be learned and developed. So when you work with our athletes, and you
just talked about college athletes, and when you work with them to develop this
skill, what are some of the things you do together?
Allistair McCaw 17:53
Yeah, you know, everybody comes from from a different background, different values, different beliefs. You know, some people come from very privileged backgrounds, some people don't, some people come from a more difficult background. So, you know, definitely your upbringing molded you, in terms of who you become. You know, it's something that you know, you don't choose your upbringing, you don't choose the first, whatever it may be 1518 years of your life, you're at home and the way you brought up with your parents and so on and so forth. Now, you know, we could argue that point to to an extent that, you know, if you're brought up with a lot of adversity, obstacles, and we've seen that a lot of great athletes like Simone Biles, the gymnasts and LeBron James were brought up in very, very difficult homes, where they had to fight for everything. And that's what's made them who they are today. And, you know, that's why you see, they're just so determined, and so focused in such tough competitors. So they've had without choice, they've had those upbringings that that's made them resilient, that's given them a lot of grit that's given them a lot of feistiness to be to be great at what they do. But there comes a stage in your life where you do get to choose your attitude. Every single day, regardless of what adversity that you've been through, you do get to choose how resilient you're going to be. We all get that choice. At the end of the day. You know, I remember growing up in South Africa, I would do cross country races and, you know, track and field. And I remember competing against some of the really poor areas and in Johannesburg and Soweto and these type of places where, you know, some runners, you know, some athletes would pitch up with no shoes, and we'd be running on really, really rough terrain and thorns and stones and glass and so on and so forth. And, you know, they had no choice, for example, and they were and they were just great competitors that were tough competitors to compete against. And then you'd see you know, maybe the kids from the more privileged schools, pitching up with the new Nikes and ASICs and all these nice nice things but you know, and they were just really just the Out Run by by the rest for example. So, you know, your upbringing does mold your, your, your mindset, it does does mold your self discipline you know, I was very fortunate to be brought up in a in a highly disciplined home and also school as well where, you know, small things like making your bed and that's something that I write a book about in the book habits and make a champion is the importance of making your bed and we know there's that very famous video online as well. From the general McRaven I think it was of the importance of making your bed. It's actually quite funny, Paul, because I had somebody send in a on Instagram a photo of their, their child's bed made with the champion minded book on top of it, saying that, you know, thank you, it's todo, todo kid, all these these kinds of lessons. And for me, Paul, that's why I do it. You know, if you ask me, you know, why do you write these books? And, and what gives you the motivation, it's to see those type of things that I'm making an impact and making a difference on on on other people's lives.
Paul Barnett 21:09
What have you learned along the journey, Aleister are about building healthy self talk habits? And I asked this question, because I watch tennis players, and they lose a point. And they sort of you see them sort of castigating themselves almost yelling at themselves, and it always intrigues me, like, how do you bounce back from that so quickly, to then play the next point? And these are people that are at Wimbledon, you know, and on the world stage, so what have you learned about self talk and making it more healthy?
Allistair McCaw 21:42
Well, that's a great example, because one of my first loves Paul was tennis, but I could not control my emotions. And I was just the worst on a tennis court. You know, I'm talking when I was 12 1314. And again, probably one of the reasons why I probably needed the book habits and make her champion back then. But I didn't have it yet. So all those experiences of I couldn't control my emotions, and my self talk would be poor, for example. So I've been there, I know what it feels like to be in that mindset. But, you know, developing, developing better self talk is one of the most powerful things that you can do. You know, I always like to say that the most important conversation you have with yourself is in the morning in the mirror, it already starts there, the moment you wake up, what do you what are you saying to yourself, when you're looking in the mirror, are you going to those areas that you don't like, and I like my nose, I don't like my ears, this that? Well, what kind of way of that is, is that to start your day, in fact, I even have some sticky notes on my, on my mirror at home, which which, you know, will have things like, when the day and you're awesome, and I know that sounds all cheesy, and so on and so forth. But, you know, our mind is such a powerful thing is that we can have negative thoughts can control us so quickly and can overcome us. So it's important to have those, those cues or those visuals. So to say, first thing in the morning, that's worked, that's worked for me, but you can talk yourself in or out of almost anything. It's another difference in you know, the world's best performers. And you know, when people say to me, you know, what is the one thing that makes the best the best athlete he said, There is no one thing there is so many different things, but definitely self talk, the power of self talk and your ability to overcome negative thoughts, you know, they, they asked Tiger Woods, you know, when he was dominating in the early 2000s You know, what he felt made him such a great golfer now, again, years and years of dedication of discipline of practice of repetition, monotonous repetition every single day. But he said it was his ability to forget the last the last shot. You know, that's what a powerful mindset is, and, you know, we can sometimes have our self talk, defeat us after a poor shot or something we've done in, in in a match or a game, for example, and we take that to the next point. And you know, as well, you know, self talk is really for me, it's one of the most important things on a daily basis to being confident to having self to believe, to having a powerful and positive self image comes down to your self talk.
Paul Barnett 24:36
Another idea I was intrigued about in the book was this one about taking a history lesson to rebuild your confidence, simple idea, but very powerful. Could you could you tell us about it.
Allistair McCaw 24:48
Again, it's something that I used to do as an athlete. You know, we didn't have Internet back in the day just to go look up something to go on Instagram and get some powerful quotes or etc. So when I'd be lacking confidence, or I maybe had a poor race, or I just wasn't feeling motivated, for example, I would look at old photographs. You know, back then, there wasn't many videos going around, there wasn't, I don't think YouTube was around yet. So you just couldn't see. I'd like to look at old photos of me, maybe I'd erase that one holding a trophy, or, you know, on the middle podium to remind myself that I'd done it before. And I could do it again. Because again, and that's why I love your previous self talk, we can talk ourselves in or out of anything. And knowing as an athlete, that when you're out of sport, maybe because of an injury or illness, you can start to talk yourself out of things, oh, my gosh, I'm losing fitness, oh, my gosh, what's going to happen when I get back am I still going to be as good as I was. And you know, that these, you know, this dialogue in our head can can defeat us and can can pull us down. So, you know, I always love that expression is take a history lesson, go back to some of your most proudest moments, your highest achievements, your best achievements. And that will just remind you that you have been there before. And you will get there again, you know, especially if you've lost confidence, or you've lost your mojo, so to say,
Paul Barnett 26:22
LSD, you've been around at least sport for a long time now. And you talked earlier about some of the champions you've worked with. And you've also seen others up close, like the Roger Federer example you gave, but I wanted to ask you what watching these obsessed people or, you know, we use that word earlier, people with deeply ingrained habits and also far reaching goals that many of us will, will never aspire to. But what does this taught you about the quest for perfection?
Allistair McCaw 26:59
You know, it, you know, you've got to be passionate to be successful in something, you know, it's, you're not going to be successful in the long run, if you're not passionate about what you do, and that you love what you do. And the fact that you're passionate about something doesn't mean that you'll love it all the time that you feel motivated all the time, you know, I loved I loved what I did, and in terms of sports, but did I wake up every day and feel excited about it or motivated by it? No, you know, that's where a longer term goal or purpose gave me gave me that that motivation, but you know, the quest for perfection is, I believe something every high performer has, is that good is not good enough. They want better, and that's what's made them who they are. And that's what's taking them to a high level. However, the downside, and you know, Brene, brown speaks about this quite a lot, as well as that profession can ruin you. You know, a lot of the time, when I consult with athletes of a very high level, they are perfectionists, they want, they want everything perfect, they want everything just right. But that can be something that obviously can, can affect their performance as well. So a lot of my time is helping them and providing the tools of how they can let go of not completely let go of perfection, but to learn how to channel that to learn how to control that. You know, one example is, you know, a perfectionist will be very disappointed after they make a mistake. So let's just use a tennis player, a golfer, for example, they hit a poor shot, and it affects them. So they focus on that. And that's something I try to help them with is, you know, when they're in the heat of competition is that they focus on the good things as much as possible more than the bad things. Now it's good to you know, if you've made a mistake is to correct it, to maybe spend 510 seconds in terms of thinking what would I do there next time, but especially in competition, that's where you have to keep a positive mindset and keep focusing on the things that you're doing well, not on the things that you're doing poorly. So that's just an example of, of being able to control perfection, so to say, when competing but I've seen many an athlete and especially junior level 1516 year olds just be really just overcome by perfection that that you know, they just can't get over the fact that they've you know, made a mistake or not want to match or a tournament for example, and it's it can be very, very tough to, to watch.
Paul Barnett 29:38
My favorite part of the book though, LSD was towards the end and I know I've messaged you on this when I was was reading through it, it's I don't know how to surprises you or not, but it's the habit of surrounding yourself with the right people just connected with me perhaps because, you know, we've we've moved country and we're rebooting our friendship and our life and I really liked this idea of the right people. Pour, making sure that people around you that and we can all define right? In our own way. But I would actually be more interested in hearing from you and what routines you use to make sure that you are surrounding yourself with the right people.
Allistair McCaw 30:13
I think it's important to know what your values are, what you look for in a relationship or relationships. You know, always love that quote by by Jim Rohn, who said, you know, you become the five people you spend the most time with. And if you actually sit back and think about that, who are those five people I spend the most time with? The obvious ones would maybe be your family, but I challenge you to maybe look outside of that as well. Of who maybe three or four other people are that you spend the most time with? Are those people that align with your values? Are those are those people that you'd like to be like? Do they motivate you? Do they inspire you? Those are important questions to ask yourself. And again, you know, Paul, when I speak to university students, or high schools or even elementary school, it's one of the, one of the things I really try to bring across as much as possible is, think about the people that you spend your time with, because that's who you will become, you know, another great, another great quote, and I love my quotes is, as you know, probably on Twitter and Instagram, is you become you become the people you spend the most time with. And that that is true. You know, so, you know, sometimes in life as well, you know, I always believe we change every five years, you know, we, you know, our experiences of what we've gone through changes us as well. And sometimes we have to let go of certain people in our lives that maybe don't align with us anymore, or, and I've experienced that the older I get as well. You know, some people drop off, and you add new people, and so on, and so forth. But the ultimate goal is, is are you becoming a better person, and you can become a better person by choosing to have better quality people in your life.
Paul Barnett 32:06
Or better quality people, which I know can be subjective and objective and very difficult to do, I think to reform groups is very difficult. But I'd like to just finish our discussion today with a topic that comes up towards the end of the book. And you've actually alluded to it in this interview, too. And it's the habit of self discipline, and the importance of controlling your emotions. Now, you talked about that being a challenge you had when you were younger person, and there's many of us would love to be better at self discipline. And also, because they give numerous occasions where I wish I was better at controlling my emotions, whether that's in the boardroom or at the family dinner table. But is it something that can be coached? And if it is, what's the one or two things we could be doing tomorrow, to get better at it?
Allistair McCaw 32:55
I believe the key to self improvement and self development is self awareness, your ability to self reflect, and this is something I do each evening, I asked myself three questions. The first one being what did I do? Well, today, what could I have done better today? And who did I make better today? Those are the three simple questions I asked myself, which takes no more than maybe 30 seconds or a minute to to answer. But through that exercise on a daily basis, I'm self reflecting on conversations I've had, what could have maybe what I could have maybe have handled better, I was maybe abrupt on the telephone today, or to the lady behind the counter at the post office, for example. But that is the way that we improve ourselves. So how are we better ourselves that we're aware of how our actions over words of our behaviors, and sometimes it can be a very difficult exercise, because it might be something you're not proud of that you know, that you couldn't control your emotions that day, for example, and that and you know, we are all like that. You know, I might write books on positivity and motivation, but I'm like anybody else. I can lose my temper. Sometimes I can maybe say things that I regret or handle a certain situation that I knew could have been handled better. But the power of improving yourself of, of self developing is the ability to be more self aware. So I would definitely, definitely go there. Alistair, it's
Paul Barnett 34:27
been terrific chatting with you. I feel like we could keep going. But perhaps we'll save that for another day, the books called Habits that make a champion. It's a great read, I'll put all the links to it in the show notes as well as your terrific Twitter feed, which I am not a huge social media user. But I do enjoy checking those out. And there's some great quotes and ideas in there that that we can all use on a daily basis. So Alistair, great to connect with you. Again, thanks for your time and good luck with wherever you're traveling next to in the world.
Allistair McCaw 34:56
Or thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure being on your podcast key Put up the great work and you know if I just look at the list of of guests that you've had on this podcast and system I'm humbled to to be on here so thank you so much again
Paul Barnett 35:11
thanks Alistair