Competitive Excellent edit
Thu, Jul 13, 2023 12:47PM • 29:34
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
competing, competitive, competition, excellence, moment, idea, win, life, playing, sport, concepts, environment, talk, skills, parents, give, figure, teams, bit, define
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Hugh McCutcheon
Paul Barnett 00:00
Hugh McCutcheon Good morning. And welcome back to the great coach's podcast.
Hugh McCutcheon 00:05
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me again. It's always a pleasure, man,
Paul Barnett 00:09
keen to chat with you this time, we're going to talk about competitive excellence. But before we get going you the question I always ask, where are you in the world? And what have you been doing so far today?
Hugh McCutcheon 00:21
Well, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and pretty good day of it, a few meetings, got some work done, even had time for workout. So here we are ready to go? Well, let's jump straight
Paul Barnett 00:36
into it, then then I want to pick up some of the themes that come from the book you that you recently, championship behave. And there was one central idea in the book, which really resonated with me as both a parent, a partner and a business executive. And it's talking about competitive excellence. And you define this as taking control of the things you can and defining who you're going to be in those moments. And I guess I want to start you by asking, how does a focus on competitive excellence? Help? Well, listen,
Hugh McCutcheon 01:12
I appreciate you asking, because a lot of people have have, well, how about this, that idea has really resonated with others. So you're not alone.
And in my personal journey, as someone that's lived in the competitive arena for a few decades, being able to reconcile the idea of competition, and I say the idea, perhaps relative to the popular narrative around competition, and formulating this bigger concept of competitive excellence, is something that's been really important in my evolution as a coach and an athlete. And so, to your question, yeah, I mean, there were two things that, that are part of that definition. One is this idea of controlling the things you can and that's rooted in a lot of different contexts concepts, the nobility of best effort, and it also taking full responsibility for the elements in that competitive equation that you can knowing that there are elements in the competitive equation that you can take control of. So you've got to make sure you're doing everything you can to be successful in those moments. And then there's that added layer of defining who you are those moments, which I also think is pretty important. Because, you know, we have this, this idea of, somehow the win means we're good, or we're better. And the loss means that we're not good, or we're worse or something. And yet, I don't think it's quite as clean as that, you know, I've I've been part of some big matches, and we've won, and it's been great. And I've been part of some big matches, and we lost it. It's been hard. But I don't think at any moment within that. Did I think, Geez, we weren't committed to excellence. We weren't trying to do everything we could, I mean, if we got beat on the day, we got beat on the day, but that shouldn't diminish, for example, four years of work, or it shouldn't validate four years of work, you know, I mean, the work was the work, it was either good enough, or it wasn't. And whether it, it's somehow it gets defined or gets distilled to this one moment of competition. Well, happiness was one moment of competitive outcome. I think that's where it gets a little sticky. I think the outcomes make it a bit complicated. And I think when we think about the bigger responsibilities we have in life, the idea that we're going to compete, and we're all competing, whether we like it or not, right, we're all competing in some way. And maybe we'll get to that in a more kind of ethereal nature later on in the pot here. But we're all competing. So the idea that this one moment is going to make or break us or define us, or somehow, that's going to be the thing that we're hanging our hat on seems a bit strange, really, because at the end of the day, that the idea of competition in my mind, and more importantly, in my experience has been as a part of the actual life of achievement, not the life of achievement itself. [PB1] You grew up in
Paul Barnett 04:07
New Zealand, you started your sporting career there, you refer to this evolution in the last answer there. And then you moved to America to countries that perhaps engage with the concept of competition differently. But when on that journey, did this idea start to become important to you?
Hugh McCutcheon 04:28
Well, you're right, I think, I don't know what it is to live in New Zealand today. Obviously, I haven't lived there recently, but we've visited enough and I've still got plenty of mates there. But yeah, when I was growing up, I wasn't raised in a house where sport was really a thing. You know what competitive neither of my parents played competitive sport. I think Mum and Dad were just happy that I was out of the house and wasn't under their feet. You know, so. Is it as sport took on more For me, you know, they supported it, but they were never, you know, they could care less, they just love me and hope that I was happy. And you know, that was about it. And I don't say that begrudgingly, I just think that was the circumstance that I was raised in. And, and certainly, when I was growing up, it felt like the narrative in New Zealand around the idea of excelling, or competing in achieving was very much rooted in this idea of tall poppy syndrome, which the idea that, you know, if you're the tall, Poppy, you get cut down to size pretty quick that you shouldn't stick your neck out. And, and there was a lot of humility, and all of that. And there's nothing wrong with those concepts. It was just a different socialization around competition. And you come to America, and it's different, isn't it? I mean, it's the first of all, it's the capital of capitalism. And so you're competing in every part of life, you know, in the idea that we're going to compete in business and in school and, in, in sport, obviously, very, very different. And not necessarily bad, but I had to learn how to how to be a pattern and how to plug into that operating system. And then obviously, you know, was able to learn how to excel within that operating system. And the way that I was able to do that was to really figure out how to frame or give perspective to what this notion of competing was, and, and what that really meant. And, and obviously, that perspective, or that framework was, was rooted in my my socialization, growing up in New Zealand around teams, and connecting and collaboration. But understanding that there was a place for, for both of those that say, you know, New Zealand was too far on the whole, like, pay, we're all in it together, and no, one of us really gets to do it. Whereas America was like, Hey, we've got to be number one, or else kind of thing. And, and somewhere in the middle, there was this kind of idea of like, hey, there's a, there's a place where both of these concepts are really valuable have value adds, and they actually have a point of connection, that that I think, is, is bigger than than the two pads? You know, I think the sum is, is greater than, than those two concepts separately.
Paul Barnett 07:15
So how do your teams when they're out on the court, how do they experience this focus on competitive excellence?
Hugh McCutcheon 07:26
Well, there's a lot of elements to it, as we said, there's a lot of things you can control. But it's this idea, one that we've shot, this is what we signed up for to compete. So when you compete, there's going to be a time where it gets big, where your seasons on the line and record renewals on the line or whatever it is, you know. And so being able to prepare for that, and accept that as part of what you sign up for, versus seeing that as the exception, you know, being prepared for the big moment, I think that's part of it. But also just understanding the value of getting in into the contest itself.
You know, when when you look at competition, or or the idea of, to compete, the Latin definition of that is to strive with or to strive together, right. And yet, the societal narrative around competition is just kind of strive against. So what the route is saying is, hey, you know, it's you and your opponent, battling for the betterment of each other to try to bring out the best in each other. And I think anyone that's competed for a long time, or anyone that's convenient, or could probably speak to a moment where the opponent or the contest itself, or the environment, evoked a response or performance from them that was greater than something they could produce on their own. And when you think about that as a place to start, that's kind of an external motivator. But maybe the ultimate form of competing is to be able to bring that into an internal motivation so that you can compete with yourself the idea that goals can be markers for for you competing with yourself for the betterment of yourself, and that can drive you to better performances. I mean, that's kind of a, an interesting idea in and of itself. So again, who gets to define me? Well, it's not my opponent, because if we play an average opponent, then to win, I've got to be a little bit better than average. That seems like a less than optimal life pursuit, the little bit better than average pursuit, but the idea of pursuing excellence where I'm trying to become the best I can be, well, that seems like I'm honoring my commitment to my life circumstance, and maybe there's a chance for me to derive satisfaction and enjoyment and, and I know some kind of profound depth of humanity in those moments versus just going through the motions and trying to get the W because we sum them acing the win, the win is all that matters. [PB2]
So anyway, your question was on a different slant. How do you get teams to connect to that?
Well, first is you got to frame it, you've got to help them understand that. Okay, we're going to live in the arena, we've signed up to compete, we've got to have physical skills that are up to scratch. So we got to know what it looks like to be successful in this in this environment relative to the goals that we've set. So, okay, we need these skills to be executed this level of performance, knowing that some skills correlate more highly to winning than others. So we got to know where we're going to put our eggs in what baskets kind of thing. Maybe combined with it, we've got skill acquisition, but we also have to apply it. So it's not one thing, just to learn how to do that skill in a vacuum. in a controlled environment, we've got to be able to do it in a game like environment, because the game is the game or the sport is the sport in a sport like environment, let's use that. So that's part of it. [PB3]
And then we've got to deal with emotional control all the ideas that if we're going to compete, maybe it's going to be in front of some fans, there's going to be someone on the other side of the net, there's going to be a ref, maybe it's going to be on TV, I don't know all these other external factors that are part of it, maybe they're going to talk trash, maybe they're not, maybe they're going to be better than us, maybe they're not, maybe we've got a plan, and we think it's going to work. And maybe it does, maybe it doesn't all the different variables. So it's that idea of like, Hey, we are preparing ourself and planning to be at our best when our best is needed. And then in the moment, we've learned to be able to compensate and adjust to whatever circumstance might arise. To me that's competing, being at your best when your best as needed, relative to what is not relative to what you expect. And, and so much of this narrative around competition and the outcome. And the idea that that's, that's when you arrive when you win the middle or you win the championship, or you do that, that somehow life is going to be different. That's the false narrative, because then expectation isn't right. Sure, life's better when you win. And it's and it's, and it stings. When you lose, right. I mean, there's, there's that moment of, oh, we won, that's great. All we've lost, that sucks, and it does, but pursuing excellence. And, and this idea of winning, they're not mutually exclusive, it's just a way to understand that, given that losing is an occupational hazard of someone that competes for a living, you're going to have to have to find ways to reconcile that to deal with it, and to keep moving forward. And even if you win all the time, well, winning can mask a lot of problems. So you know, you've still got to pay attention to the details, even when you're successful. [PB4]
So there you go, probably more than you wanted. But I've been thinking about this a lot. It's a big topic.
Paul Barnett 12:54
I love the definition of being at your best when your best is needed. And it actually links to, to this competitive excellence definition that you also gave, because in the second part of that definition, you say, defining who you're going to be in those moments, and it's these, these moments, these leadership moments, that interests me greatly. And I'm wondering if I could ask you about the key moments that you've identified and whether or not you actually worked through who you wanted to be in those moments.
Hugh McCutcheon 13:24
Right? Right. Well, listen, to your point, we can all be good when it's easy to be good. That's nothing special. I mean, what's really chairmanship behavior or whatever it is this idea of like, can we be good when it's really hard? When it's difficult when it's when we don't get the call? Or or the opponent's better or it's raining? Or why I don't know, whatever it is some kind of circumstance beyond our control presents itself. And we've got to be able to figure out a way to do it, even though it's not easy, and it's not pleasant, and it's uncomfortable. Can we lean into that and figure out a way to get the job done? I mean, that's profoundly satisfying. And that's, to me what champions do. Again, being good when it's easy to be good, that's not that special and nothing special at all. So when I was thinking about my evolution as an athlete, particularly I was, I was I was I had some physical talents and abilities, you know, I mean, but I wasn't particularly skilled. I started playing volleyball, I fell in love with volleyball later than most people. I was 15 When I started, and so especially when I came to the States, you know, I was really raw and I had this talent, but I didn't have much skill to go with it. So I always felt like I was playing catch up. And it was really, it became this consuming thing. And then on top of that, you know, I was like, Man, am I good enough? Am I not good enough? Like we all have those moments, right? But then on top of that, you know, I was I'd left my home Um, I left my, my family and, and they were investing financially. And you know, we weren't living high off the hog by any means. And so it was a sacrifice for my mom to be able to do this. But my father had passed away a few years before that. And so it wasn't like it was this small thing to just come and chase this life passion, there were all kinds of investments and sacrifices that were made. And so I, where I'm going with this is I felt like, there was a lot of pressure, like, I really had to make something of this. And there were people that were like, Oh, you're stupid for going to the States? What are you doing? You know, like, you know, because, again, how dare you think that you're better than someone else? Like, why should I go to the states and someone else not. So it was just a lot for my little, whatever, 20 year old brain to process. And, and I spent a couple of years trying to figure it out. And not that it was a big deal. But at the time it was I used to play in the middle as a middle blocker, which is kind of a blue collar, you know, jump, jump and hit, do a little blocking. That's about it. And then when I got to the states, they asked if I would play as an outside hitter. And either playing is an opposite, but but I had to learn a whole bunch of new skills, and it was very uncomfortable. And, and that added to the whole thing, right? So not only I was playing out a position, I was playing out of country, I had a domicile, whatever the whole thing was out of whack. All right. So I get to the end of it.
I'm in my last year. And, and I really struggled with the mental game, because I think like I said, I had, I had a lot of expectations that I wasn't able to control. I was dealing with a lot of emotional stuff that I wasn't mature enough to figure out in terms of how to manage the moment of competition. And I just remember early in that last year, being in a game and and it was a very specific moment. And it was back in those days, we're still playing sight out scoring, and I think it was like 13 or whatever and the first seat and roll up to left front. We went to we recite out we rotate and and there were times where honestly, and I say this honestly, you know, 30 years removed from it or whatever, 33 years removed, but I would be like, Hey, I show how I don't get set right now. Has the game is on the line, or whatever it was, you know what I mean? And I was just like, oh, it I don't know, if my poor little heart could handle any more heart ache, you know, I've covered up short, those big moments. But then I very clearly remember having this this, this moment of like, No, I'm not going to do that. I've worked too hard. I've invested too much. I'm not I'm not going to succumb to it. And maybe that's not what the narrative was, or the thought was, but that's what I'm telling you. I mean, that's that was the idea like no enough, I'm going to enjoy this. I've put my put everything I've got into this into being successful in this arena, I'm not going to somehow let the moment to find me, I get to at least enjoy it. You know, so I took a breath. Smile. Alright, here we go. And sure enough, they saved me the ball and I happened to kill it. And then I blocked the ball, we happen to win the Senate. And my athletic career was different after that, after that moment. And so it comes down to this idea of like, I know from personal experience that those moments are going to happen. And what you do with them can really influence what happens next. And we didn't win every game and we didn't win a championship. But all I knew is that in my personal journey of me competing with myself managing my emotions, my my hopes, my dreams, my fears, my insecurities, all of that stuff, that I was able to say no, I can do it. And I've and I did. And so I found that incredibly freeing and liberating, and I would dare say even life changing Paul, so why not try to share that with others. [PB5] I love
Paul Barnett 19:10
this idea of this critical moment going on to shape the way that you think about the mental approach to the game. And I'm going to pick up pick that up with you in another conversation another day, because I think we could probably fill an hour with that one. And I know in the book, you actually pull apart the key mental skills that athletes need to develop. So I'm gonna save that one here and not go off on a tangent right now because I want to keep going on competitive excellence. And one of the things that you do a lot of in the book and also when I hear you, you talk is that you you, you speak about your own experience at the Olympics, traveling internationally playing around the world, but you also bring in research. You also bring in social science and things that you've read to just give it that extra level of I guess authenticity or support and I'm wondering It has it been anything that you read on competitive excellence, any research or social science that you've read, that reinforces some of the central ideas you've been talking about?
Hugh McCutcheon 20:11
Well, yeah, I mean, there's, there's some social science, but there's also some side science. I mean, you know, we want to be in motor learning, exercise physiology, and all of that stuff, as well as, yeah, some of this idea around what it is to compete. You know, one of the books I really like about competition is this book, true competition by shields and Brett Amaya. And, you know, in their construct, they talk about these two ideas of kind of competition and D competition, where we're D competition is this idea of kind of the one or the zero, you know, you win, and you get all the resources or you lose, and you get none of the resources, whereas competition is this idea of, you know, driving, improvement or innovation, even evolution through through the contest in improving oneself through through this, this mechanism of competition. But most of the book I, yeah, there's some anecdote in there, I really wanted to be more about the science of achievement and how that's applied in the day to day because to me, that was the big space. Like, I tell you that I share that story with you about my athletic experience, I don't think I've ever shared it with anyone, but I share that with you. Because in my mind, when I was putting the book together, I was like, Man, I really wish someone would have helped me with that. Or I wish I could have known about these things before and it would have helped me. So that's why the book was written for athletes and for coaches and for parents of athletes. So it wasn't, it's not, it's not a book of anecdote, although there is story in there. It's a book about here's the, here's the science of achievement. And here's a way that it all is connected from the moment of inception to like, here's the thing we hope to achieve, to the moment of achievement itself. And I thought having something that was comprehensive kind of soup to nuts approach that was something I'd never seen. So. So that was the driving force behind it.
Paul Barnett 22:06
I think it's fascinating, because there's been many guests that we've interviewed, I can think just off the top of my head, Gary, Kirsten, the World Cup, cricket winning coach, Sue inquest, Kevin sharp, the cricket coach, many of them have talked about this, this, as you describe this critical moment, when they found their mental skills, not at the level they needed. And in some instances, that forced them down a journey to go and figure out what it was and how it related to competition. And then there's your example where it seems like you were able to grasp it in the moment, and then fold it into your philosophy going forward, which is totally fascinating you But enough about me, I want to talk a little bit more about competitive excellence in the family environment, because I'm the father of two girls, they play social sports, but they are fierce debaters fierce. And it's in, in their debate where the focus on the resolve first seems to really come through and I've read a lot about, you know, trying to raise children, and there's a lot written about this idea of balancing competitiveness with empathy, particularly with you, you're raising daughters, I'm just wondering how you've applied this idea of competitive excellence in your own family?
Hugh McCutcheon 23:28
Well, yeah, I, my wife and I, we have a couple of kids, and we're trying to do our best to raise them as well. And, and it's, it's complicated. As in when you go through the the idea of your journey, you tend to want a parent the way you parented, but there's been a little bit of time and in between when you were a kid, and when you're parenting and the world is different. And the social pressures are different, the environments are different. So So you really, again, you're you're compensating and adjusting as you go along, and you're trying to figure it out. But the principles, and maybe that's the best approach to this idea of competitive excellence is this idea that the principles of excellence, relative to applying scientific rigor to your methodology don't really change. It's their application that change. And so I would say it was probably similar in the parenting space, like the principles of trying to develop good human beings. Well, they haven't changed. It's just the environment that we're trying to apply them in this change. And I think that's really the critical element of leadership these days is being able to meet people where they're at, have a really clear idea of your guiding principles, because they serve as this wonderful evaluative criteria for all the stuff that's out there and we know there's a lot of stuff out there, but finding stuff that that rings true, and and then figuring out how to how to apply it to the people under You're charged, in this case, our children. And so I'm, thankfully to my kids, I'm dead. And I'm prone to oil, all of the frailties of their condition, right? And, and I'm not perfect, but I'm doing the best I can to love them and in, in, raise them and try to point out maybe a different approach when I can,[PB6] but I promise you, they're not somehow entrenched in some framework for competitive excellence, or some rigorous program of upbringing, I'm just trying to love and hug them and, and point them in the right direction. And, you know, if there was anything, I spoke earlier about the fact that my parents weren't particularly open, they, they were invested in me, but they didn't care about my sport. And I think, even though at the time, I was like, oh, you know, all the other parents were there watching the kids why? Well, you know, my mum and dad, rough gardening or whatever, you know. But as I see that, I saw that there was actually some really profound freedoms in them. And what I mean is that it was my thing, they let me have it. And it wasn't their thing, trying to be expressed through me, you know, what I mean, which I think oftentimes can be a deal, and especially in new sport, they let me have it. And so I nurtured this love of endless like, because you got to have your head and your heart involved in these things, I was able to nurture that on my own. And then I'm really trying to give our kids and I'd say, my wife is to give them the space and the freedom to define what it is they want to chase and hear, obviously, give them boundaries and all the rest of it. We're not there to be their best friends. We're trying to be their best parents. But give them some guidelines as well. But yeah, have them find find their passion and see what they want to do with it. Because, you know, ultimately, it's the journey just like we've been fortunate enough to have this one.
Paul Barnett 26:56
You, there'll be people listening that are thinking, like me, probably at this point, Oh, am I focusing too much on the output? Is that the process? Where should I be finding that that line? And in my context, is a business environment. I don't coach on teams. I'm not involved with them. But I'm fascinated by them. And I'm fascinated by the leadership of those teams. But if someone was listening, and they wanted to bring a folk, or just slightly lift the focus on competitive excellence into their team, or organization, where would you advise them to start?
Hugh McCutcheon 27:32
Well, to me, it comes down to this idea, like I said, we're all whether we like it or not, we're all competing, right? And the way I view it is the thing we're competing against his time. That's the race we're running. Because it maybe this is just me, and I'm a bit nuts. Who knows? Or maybe I'm not. But it seems to me like okay, we're here. Well, we'll forget to be here. Let's be here, as it were on Earth, we get and I'm not into reincarnation, whatever. So I just reckon we've got one spin on the rock. So let's go go big and see what we can do. And most importantly, what I mean by that is, like, let's try to make it better than we found it. Yeah, that seems to me, that's the responsibility we have, because we're all standing on the shoulders of those that came before us. But we should try to make it a little bit better. Right. So to that end, when you're thinking about, well, where does it start, we're running this race against time, we have no idea where the finish line is, because you never know, right? But the finish line is your last breath, we have no idea with it coming. I'm not trying to be somber or whatever. I'm just being realistic. So to that end, I better try to have some good days. So that when I get to the finish line, whenever that is, I feel like I ran a pretty good race. That's empowering, that feels like we're helping people to do it right. That way. They take responsibility for the things they can and in the competitive equation, they do their best give best effort, best intention with best practice methods. And hopefully, we leave it a little better than we found it.
Paul Barnett 29:06
I think leaving things a little bit better than we found them is probably a good place to finish. So you, great to share it with you again, loved some of the ideas in competitive excellence. And I think a lot of them are applicable to our lives at home at work, and on the sporting field too. So thank you very much. And I look forward to getting you back on the podcast again to explore that that element of the mental game.
Hugh McCutcheon 29:29
Sounds great, man. I really appreciate it. I really do. Thanks