Connor O'Shea Edit
Wed, 9/29 10:45PM • 31:51
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, coaches, sport, game, italy, coaching, culture, team, italian, rugby, win, sat, shifted, losing, play, professionalism, learn, bit, young, years
SPEAKERS
Conor O'Shea, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Conor O'Shea Good afternoon and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Conor O'Shea 00:03
Hey Paul, how are you?
Paul Barnett 00:04
I'm pretty good. Connor a really simple question to kick off. Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to today,
Conor O'Shea 00:09
because you can say my little present at home, like the rest of the world like meeting after meeting Zoo girl after Zoo call to look forward to probably getting back to normality, at least at least we're looking now at some rugby back on the screens. And we've got the prospect of more rugby coming back with the new test match schedule for the teams in the autumn Test series, a Nations Cup kind of principle that they're going to be playing and gradually I think that like a boxer groggily getting off the canvas, the sport in general is beginning to get off, but a significant challenges ahead, financially on and off the pitch competitively in terms of people's development, and I'm not just talking about the top end, we've got a group of kids that are growing up and they've missed and will have missed the bones of a year of sporting development, that the knock on effect of what we've gone through is going to be felt for quite a
Paul Barnett 00:54
while. No, definitely definitely has to, but I can't wait to get this ball back on the TV. So I will make sure that in this interview, we cover off all the essentials, but I end on time so that you can get back out to training and organize all those plays to get ready for the games.
Conor O'Shea 01:09
I believe that will lead up to the word the well qualified people I watch from the sidelines.
Paul Barnett 01:13
Well, you are indeed well qualified corner and we're gonna get into that today through your experience because you've coached in multiple countries around the world. But I wanted to just kick off with one in the clock back a little bit, if I could, because you've had some first hand experience of some of the really great coaches Warren Gatland at Jones, Joe Schmidt, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. What is it you think these great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Conor O'Shea 01:36
Well, that's a great question. I[PB1] think they're constantly learning and evolving, obviously, how either have a confidence in themselves, I think, each and every one and lockdown as providers all a huge opportunity to talk to people that you wouldn't have in different sports or different businesses and industries. And I've been fortunate with the Rugby Football unit, I've asked myself and I need to talk to different coaches and around the world, it's been really interesting talking, even to their experiences of moments in time, which shape your career. Now that can be the same in life, you can pinpoint the moments that come along and kind of say, Well, if I could have gone this direction, or that direction, I think back Would you believe a foam box in Bangor in Wales? That's a long way ago. Could
How great coaches are constabtly learning and evolving and have healthy self-sconfidence.
Paul Barnett 02:19
you tell us about that foam box.
Conor O'Shea 02:22
So I was due to go leave school, I'd actually decided to do a degree in banking and finance or business and finance with a language and I wanted to do it in Wales. Don't ask me why Bangor was a really good place to go. And I rang home from this phone box. I was just about to sign on the dotted line for the digs for my first year in college. And I ran home and my dad, God rest his soul. He says, You've just got your offer through for university in Dublin, and it's your first choice. And if I hadn't made that phone call from that phone box, I'd have signed and I'd have gone to Wales and done my so where would your life have gone with that one decision and it's the same in sport every time you you do something? You've probably you said you listen to a couple of podcasts myself and Eddie, we've asked loads of coaches about their sliding door moments moments that your life has got to go one way or the other. And that's what am I your life is littered with those turns, some of them take you in a good direction and some take in a bad direction.
Paul Barnett 03:17
Can I talk about your father actually because in preparing for today, I'll say that he was a carries in the carry football team and he was a three time all Ireland champions. So I'm imagining his influence must have found its way into your coaching style and philosophy.
Conor O'Shea 03:31
Yes, obviously he's probably the biggest influence I had in my life and he passed away just under two years ago and you didn't have a day that didn't go by the you don't think about like any father and son, we just grew up in a house with a we're never going to be professional and the game just went to professional good time for me. So he and my mother don't encourage and encouraged us to head towards education, because education led to your career led to your life as opposed to sport spinning. Now I was young enough it just tipped into professionalism and you knew it so I was able to kind of change that direction my two brothers are doing the proper work of doctors so he encouraged but he also gave us a massive love for our sport. So that's where I'd probably come I look now and you never hark back to your on my days when the best days there is the one thing that the you love people to have the opportunity to do now young kids is just to play sport the way we used to for the enjoyment and I think there's so much pressure put on kids from such a young age now not just to achieve but to achieve because their parents want them to just let them enjoy and find their own way that's what my dad would have said he that's what he encouraged he encouraged outside of our lives to really enjoy all sport get stuck in and I mean obviously he had a bit of a competitive edge in him as well.[PB2] It's funny
Paul Barnett 04:51
what are the values that are really central to your style as a coach,
Conor O'Shea 05:17
when we sat down and this goes back again and higher with Harlequins with the players when I went in there in 2010, and we sat down as a group and said, you know what he walked out of the game, they talked about values, they also talked about how they wanted to play the game, and the how they wanted to play the game. [PB3] It always sticks in my head is thing of parents, the kids back in from school always happens. It always comes back to how you want to play the game. So they wanted to play with tempo. They wanted to be ruthless, they wanted to be unpredictable, and how they played their big one enjoyment that funny little Ackerman came out to be true. And they said, We just want to be true to our values, true tempo, ruthless, unpredictable, enjoyment, and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy it. Now, people sometimes say enjoyment doesn't mean you want to win are rubbish, like you want to win every single time you lace a booth and play, whether it be tiddlywinks or whether it be a game of rugby at the very highest level, or the game of golf against your best mates. You want to win that inbred in people. But if you don't enjoy what you do, you're not going to be successful.
Conor O'Shea 06:32
job. Again, we just mentioned my dad early on, he said to be one of his advices. If you can't walk away, don't do it. If you're so all consumed by something that dad is listening, no one ways the right way. And what I believe doesn't mean it's right. But it's how you want to live your life. [PB5] And he asked the first question you asked is what to Joe and Joe Smith and Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland. And all these great coaches have in common, they're themselves. So they learn from loads of people, they learn from their growth, they learn from experience, but they take all those learnings, but they never change who they are. It's when you try and be an imposter. So if the way you want to live your life is I don't enjoy it. And I just got to be successful, because if I enjoy it, I'm showing weakness. If that's you, fine. If you're acting that, then you're just an imposter. So I know how I want to live my life, I know the values I have, if that's good enough, people like it fine. If they don't, they don't, but I'm not gonna be somebody I'm not. That's probably the biggest thing that you see in those really elite coaches[PB6] . Like there's a very, very small select few of Steve and for Joe Smith, that type Eddie Jones, there are very few that are in the stratosphere of Cochin, there's a lot of mere mortals. There's a few that are, I suppose you could call them the super coaches. And they're very special
Paul Barnett 07:52
kind of Can I hit off in a different direction actually, from values I'd like to hit into culture because after Harlequins, you were the national director at the English Institute of Sport, you were credited with shifting the culture of the organization. So I'm interested to know, if you were giving advice to someone on trying to improve the culture within their team, what would you tell them to do?
Conor O'Shea 08:19
First, my mind is shifted on this magic word of culture[PB7] . Look down, everyone has the book still to have my legacy book down there that everyone has those that you got it there, the old black book, everyone hasn't any of everyone's read. You read about culture the whole time, and I kind of shifted on that. And I've shifted on us, not that it's not pivotal are important. But I've shifted since I moved to Italy. And I think culture is more the environment, you create the environment, you created the people in it. And yes, you talk about values and all these other things, but it's creating an environment creates a culture, and every culture is also and this is why I'm talking to you.[PB8] You're in Prague, you've now bought into a different country different to where you're from. So do they dumb down to you? Or do you dumb down to them? Which way does it work? You have to embrace their culture. And there are things they will do differently. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but they'll do it differently. You might be looking going Gee, why do you work like this? or Why did your school run like that? Or why did the shops close here and but it's a culture that they have cultivated and you need to buy into those things. And I think one of the joys I had for my close to four years of this study was just learning all those idiosyncracies getting really irritated at the start going I can't believe this can't believe that can't believe the clothes for two weeks in August I when they say they close very close. I can't believe that you get a bit of paper walking out of every building account. And actually then he said I have to I have to embrace this. Because that's there. I'm sure there are people go over to arms and go What the hell are they doing over here? What do you do in England? What happens in Scotland? So what's the advice, embrace the culture that's there, and the culture is the people and Then you work on how you make that better, but don't go in, I'm thinking you can rip up specially in international coaching. I sat down with Eddie month one or two in my job in Italy, I finished the season with queens gone straight on tour to America, Canada, Argentina, with the Italian team came back to England to shift over, so to speak, it was a real whirlwind, but I made time I had a coffee with Eddie. And I asked him about his time in Japan, I didn't want to talk to about Australia, England, and I was fine. And I wanted to find out, it was the same when I met Steve Hansen. I talked to him about his time of Wales, not as time in New Zealand because you want to learn what people how they got out where they actually shifted countries, as opposed to anything. So I think a bit of an understanding of that. Rather than thinking you need to rip it up, because there are so many good things and everywhere in every place, and really defining what culture means Paul would be the biggest thing. It's not just in a book, you know, just read the pamphlet, and create a culture.
Paul Barnett 11:00
I think that's fair enough from that experience in so you put yourself in that environment in Italy, you've come back to the England you're not coaching full time now. But I imagine that you will again, how is that Italian experience going to change your approach to your next coaching role.
Conor O'Shea 11:16
I'm really excited about the role I have. It's a long term role anyway, because if Edie is focused on 2023, and Simon Middleton, the women's coach on 2021, the union has to be looking at 25 and 2729, and 31. And that really excites me, I know, my first time in the Union was over nearly 1415 years ago now and but I still look at some of the players that are still playing that you meet. So you report yourself. And the work that we do now will be benefiting people in 1015 years time. But as an aside, I think it's an incredibly I've so much respect for the people who do it because it's rewarding, but stressful and all consuming when your family or you get to a stage looking to say my 10 year old has no nothing other than me, and Quinn's and Italy every week, it's been dependent on the result and there's the time away at weekends which he'll still have and I'm still having this role but not to the extent that when you're the coach you are there first and you are gone last then the following day is not a day off it's a review it's find out about the injuries it's get ready and prepared so that when you're in a Monday you're in there with a clear plan of action to Some say it's easy when you're when it's easy when you're when when it's not when you're when you have to keep that motivation of everyone and keep feet on the ground when you're losing you have to retain motivation and at times you have to give motivation and you bring that energy even if you're feeling pretty down yourself so you dust yourself down you get on with us[PB9] and yeah I think there's a time in your life for that there's a time in your life that you want something different now does that mean I don't go down to the local club and stick on a pair of boots for for love doing this? I've been invited to do a few things. I did a coaching week with a holiday camp. That was my holiday go to kids for a couple of hours every morning because it's that's the fun part. So you never want to lose that but now the likes of your Rob Baxter's Richard cockerel, the McCall's and Eddie's and welcome to it now.
Paul Barnett 13:23
All right, well, let me talk about results that let's wind back to Italy because when you started there, you had great early success, you beat South Africa. But after that, you know, success against the tier one countries was limited. And I'm really curious to know how did you help that team staying motivated and moving forward when they were continually losing on the scoreboard,
Conor O'Shea 13:41
that's where you have to have a pretty clear vision of what you're playing for. I don't think we came in and unknown initially is everything that got to be disappointed. We had a couple of opportunities for big scouts that we didn't take, probably won the games that we bar, one game at home, which was Tango, which will last for the last minutes, every game, we should have won, we won. So we had opportunities, whether that be going into the war against Argentina and Fiji, but we did beat Fiji as well as lose to Fiji go into Japan and win in Japan, people probably said that the year before the World Cup won or with Japan, in Japan, well, actually retrospectively going there. I'm doing that that's actually was a good result. So sometimes we didn't celebrate those successes and keeping people on task and saying, Well, what are you playing for? We very clearly as a team said, yeah, we want to win now. And every game and Sergio is incredible. His motivation to win was just beyond comprehension. And he dust themselves down and be ready with the same energy every week. I'd say he will be until he turns 100. He'd want to do if but we also were cleared said we're playing for the future. And we're planning to give the youth a future and Steve Abood Franco asked only do guys out there doing an unbelievable job with some of the young players that are coming up. Does that mean they're world beating World Cup Winners? No. No one literally ever says they want to do that. But they're saying ambling aside, Karen Crowley and Teresa, Michael Bradley in zebra. There's a different mindset of people. And I think that's something we've shifted in that period. Did I want to win a course. But I said to Sergio for 1015 years time we're sitting having a beer having a Peroni, and with us, that's what you've got. If we're sitting having a beer in the studio in 1015 years time we've contributed to that journey. That's your job in sport is an ego driven that you want to win the whole time. Yes, but there's some things that are greater than that. And that's what we kept on reflecting and referring to, we're playing for the future. [PB10] You know, our performances in the World Cup By the way, the typhoon knocked us out of the New Zealand game. And we had the disappointment of South Africa and our prop falling apart in front of us getting set off but those first two games and the way we played against Libya and Canada Yes, games, we should win and we won. But we won with such confidence, such ease and scores, so many good tries. I think the game has moved on and everyone initially knew we're making progress, but they also see this raft of young players. I just hope COVID and the financial issues won't impact on what you know is coming up behind does that mean they'll win the Six Nations in next year? No, course not, but more and more competitive and that keeps you going despite the losses,
Paul Barnett 16:15
but actually the your influence was already starting to be visible because Benetton pushed through and made the first Italian site to make the pro 14 and some of that was credited to what you put in place.
Conor O'Shea 16:26
The credit there, Crowley is the zoll Black has done an unbelievable job there. Marco Bortolami Fabio ngaro SEO Golan, Mairead Goosen, who's on the coaching team with me with Italy do the defense blokes Karen had played in Italy years ago but the other four just steeped in Italian rugby Mary's Teresa four years old, the other three Italian internationals but you see the same and I know they moved on at the time last year when Michael surrounded themselves with you know, people like our sound or Tron Carlin, those guys, Carlo Orlandi, and they're good, passionate, but also very forward thinking. So Italian rock was in in good hands. I think it made a lot of mistakes. It was probably more professional in the amateur era, which is why the success was there. No, it's a terrible thing to say professional jamahiriya. But it's the fact I've struggled with like a lot of countries with professionalism. And over the years, then as the greats retired, so when they went into professionalism, they have this team with a lot of great and household names. And then as professionalism went, they went out of it and struggle just to get back up despite people like john Kerwin and Nick Mollison. period were busy a great coaches jack Brunel, working within, but the infrastructure behind was just making it more and more difficult to be competitive. So as the professionalism dragged on, I think that Ross is now turning, and I look at the the number of quality young players and it's a game that's just made for Italian people, if you think of it, it's football in, its passionate, its aggressive. Its mo emotional. It's made for Italian people. And it's a fabulous rugby country, the north of Italy. And I know it's grown in the south and stuff. But you go along that a4 corridor up to north of Italy, and every town has a rugby club. And there's some great club rivalries, whether it be rovigo against Culver sound or a Vigo gets part of Petrarca. So great matches to go up to, I just hope they continue to improve. And these young players push through but Steve baboons and Franco ice go on and they've done a brilliant job,
Paul Barnett 18:34
Kona, the teams that you've coached, you know, just researching them and reading about them. They feel aligned, like they feel like they're moving against a common vision. And so makes me wonder, how do you manage your How have you what tips or advice if you got to managing the negative influence within teams that so often can derail a successful team,
Conor O'Shea 18:54
I think it does come down to alignment and everyone wanting the very few environments, if you've got people who are completely, it's a stranger, and you've got to have Mavericks who kind of are against the establishment, but sometimes those members can be the players that make the difference, and you want them in your team. But as long as those Mavericks don't pull all your kind of workers doers are the ultimate for every team is to have world class talent with world class, personality and attitude. And then you've got the perfect day, don't you but that's not the way the world works, unfortunately. So you're gonna have a mix, that variety is good at times as well. So you embrace that variety, you embrace the individualism, but you hope that the alignment towards that common goal that everyone wants is the same and is right and you keep on pushing[PB11] if I remember my wife said to Chris Rock shaunti she heard him interviewed after a game and she said, Oh my god, I could be used speaking. And I went, Oh, that's quite quite nicely, actually. Nice thing she said. But it was nice in the sense that we were all speaking the same language. And that's important. So whether that be Italy Quinn's but whatever team in your business If you're all speaking the same language, then you know you're on a decent track.
Paul Barnett 20:04
Easier said than done, though, unfortunately. Yeah,
Conor O'Shea 20:07
yeah. But if people don't want to join in, they leave. And maybe that's where sport is slightly different to day to day, you have that ability to be to pick and choose probably in a less legalistic manner.
Paul Barnett 20:19
Let's switch over to innovation, because you do have a reputation as being an innovative coach, particularly after the reckless tactic, infamous reckless tactic, but curious on what stops more coaches from being innovative, because doesn't seem to be coming through as much these days it has been in the past or it could just be my aging perception of the world of sport.
Conor O'Shea 20:41
I don't know I've been I've been off that rock, Gator, rock, close friend and vendor, very imaginative mind. And we all sat around and we agreed This was worth the roll of the dice. And we did it. I think it showed from certainly an Italian perspective that if you do things differently, you can get different results. We didn't win the game, but we're much more competitive. And we did it in a way that shows change can make a difference. I think a lot of the innovation is fear of failure, and fear of ridicule. If you do something different. I remember a friend of mine said this a million times probably a friend of mine rang me. It'll kill me from from Dublin one day. And he said, I'm coaching my kid, his son's soccer 1100 12 team, I want to do something different. What do you think I should do? And I said, Why don't you get them to play the whole year kicking off the wrong foot? And he said, I can't do that. I said, why not? He said we will lose every game. I said, Yeah, but you'll give them a skill for life. There'll be two for that. I will know. I said, Well, then why did you bring me? But imagine if you had that Imagine if you decided to do that as young coach, job. Tell what results? Did I want to make sure every player I have is to fourth It was a skill that would be what do we think like that. And I'm not saying I do that either. By the way, I'd say that. But if you think differently, Brian Ashton's an amazing, he's probably one of the best thinkers of the game. And he'd always say that we've got things slightly wrong, our best culture should be coaching, our youngest, and vice versa. Because the more you get higher up, the more it's about management. Lower down, if you can teach people the right technique early to your golf swing, to get the glitches in your golf swing, if you've been taught, right, when you're young, then you wouldn't have some of these slice problems and hook problems, but you kind of self taught yourself. And then it's too late to change. And it's the same with this. So I think just having the ability to say it's the fear of failure is out the window, and the fear of ridicule is out the window. And you never know,[PB12]
Paul Barnett 22:32
kind of you talked earlier about your emotional state being linked to the performance of the team. And when you left Italy, you said look, it's been 10 years of Queens in Italy back to back. And so I'm wondering if I could wind all the way back to that young young person that started coaching London Irish all those years ago? What advice would you give that person about coaching,
Conor O'Shea 22:54
understated banking and finance. I love what I do listen, my passion is my hobbies, my job. So it's not very difficult to get emotional about it. I think what happened for the people who are closest to me, and who don't we really well is I'm all in or not in. And I know when I get to a stage that Enough is enough. Like you get every piece of me when I'm doing a job that last couple of games we had built so hard for that World Cup. And with Italy for example, the same disabled Quinn's you kind of know you reach that stage that emotionally I have given everything I can. And I need that to be targeted in some other direction. So the only advice will be bad advice because we will be to care less. But then if I cared less than I would be doing the job all day while remember someone in my early days or Quinn's telling me that I took things too hard too much at times. And I said with respect, if I didn't, you'd have the wrong person. I think if you create that, but then do you have the same because back to the very first thing I said Be yourself. If myself is emotional, and I get an emotional attachment with people and stuff, then Soviet that's me. If other people are cold, great. If that's you, be you.[PB13]
Paul Barnett 24:39
when I was preparing for today, I see that you your coach. He's been influenced by tennis. But you've also taken inspiration from football and all the different Olympic sports. I was just wondering, in the last six months, we've had all this extra time and we've been in lockdown, whether there has been anything that you found particularly interesting or useful,
Conor O'Shea 25:13
it's amazing, I think we've probably learned how to learn. And here we are, you're in Prague, I'm in London. But we might as well be down the road from each other. And our ability to actually carve out a lot of the, whether it be the travel, I've had this debate with my wife quite a bit. Now recently, if you're gonna say, our age, I'm probably doing a big disservice. Apologies. But if you're our generation, you've got your network of people, and you know how to work around and navigate. So the physical face to face meetings aren't as pivotal for us in growing our careers, we can do these sorts of things. But there's a balance to be hard when you're young, but you need to have the physical, you need to have the coffee meetings you need to. So there's a balance for us as well of being physical as well as, as virtual. But I think the balance for younger people, is they need to get out there, they need to meet people, because that's how you develop your network, and understand how to get on with things. So I think that's what I've seen just a breaking down of barriers of how we learn, and how we improve ourselves by having forums that are a little bit different, and be very comfortable doing that.
Paul Barnett 26:24
When we were talking to Eddie, he talked about the fact that he thinks some of the younger players in the team losing their conversation skills, and therefore they're losing their ability to resolve conflict. And so I think the common of getting away from screens and talking to people is, is vital. absolutely vital. He says while talking on the screen to man, yeah,
Conor O'Shea 26:44
again, you go by culture, and what are the first things that really struck me on my very first trip away with Italy was dinner, and sitting down and the team room eight o'clock dinner starts, and you'd have these kind of windows for people, eight o'clock, practically everyone was there. But the windows from eight to nine, but they sat the Italian sat and ate and talked. And I was waiting for these young fellas to be back up to the rooms on their devices. But the culture in Italy is such that you do you sit at your dinner table together, you enjoy each other's company, you talk to each other a bit like the old days, you don't just how quickly can I eat my dinner or get back to the TV? It doesn't work like that there is not a learning but it's something we all need to do. So when you say get away from your device. That's it. You mean, I think a lot you say locked down a lot of families have probably spent time at dinner together again, because they've been around and you know, when sport wasn't there, it now kind of back to the you know, things are not back to normal, but they're quarter normal, or even semi normal. But there's more of families spending time together, which has been great.
Paul Barnett 27:54
Definitely as it's been a gift, kind of just a couple more questions. You've been pretty generous with the time and it's getting on for beer o'clock, actually, but but one question is what's been your greatest moments so far as a coach? unfair question. I got a I got an easy one for you, if you like
Conor O'Shea 28:08
Yeah, but it's an unfair question is because I could be really boring, but there's still many occasions. And that can be good and bad. The easy thing is beating South Africa, easily winning the Premiership with queens winning the paradigm cup of London Irish, looking back at all the good moments, but it's the unseen moments of selflessness from people on a pitch on what they do. For the team from the outside people don't see it's the Donnie Ron, that creates the space. One gets the glory. But the team has actually the team has succeeded. It's the bloke who runs 50 yards to allow someone to cut inside them. And it's the next person that makes the tackle. But if he hadn't committed to selling himself, the guy would have scored in the corner instead of coded inside so people can say Oh, he missed the tackle, though. He allowed us to make the tackle. And I love looking for the bits that no one sees if that selflessness as opposed to what ultimately wins you the Premiership and I think back to a blustery Kingston Park when Nick Evans kicks a goal to level the game or I think of a try from a guy called Ross Chisholm in Gloucester, which gets us a losing bonus point in the second minute of injury time. But that losing bonus point ends up being the reason that you've got a home semi final. And that home semi final is the reason you get to the final July piecing together everything rather than just looking for the glory. So that's why it's an unfair question.
Paul Barnett 29:42
. Kind of one last question if I can. And again, it's probably an unfair one, but I'm going to lead with it anyway. Because this is great quote, We you say, you borrow the jersey of the team you coaching, you don't own it. So I'd like to ask you, what is the legacy? You think you've left as a coach?
Conor O'Shea 30:23
unfair question again? I don't know. I don't know. Because that's for other people to decide. But I think it's a very cliched line. But it's cliches are only there, because they're the truth. Anytime it's a bit like I said, my conversation with Sergio. my conversation with Sergio was in a little coffee shop in Paris, I said to him at the time, was probably august of 2016, or September 2016. We had done the first tour, he hadn't been part of it, I wanted to meet him. And all I said to him was a, we can be South Africa in 2016, because I knew they were there for the taking. So let's buy into that one. And be the next four years on all the battles. It's about creating a future for Italian rugby. That's all we're in this far. And then we'll see you 10 years down the road to the beer and hopefully we will have played a part in this. And along the way, we didn't want more wins. But that's our job. Are you still up for it? Boy, he's still up for it and still going. But I think that's what you mean by borrowing that jersey. It's always try anything to leave it in a better place. If I feel that I've contributed to memories for people and hopefully left something in a better place then I'm happy and I'll leave other people judge that[PB14]
Paul Barnett 31:36
Connor O'Shea. It's been fantastic chatting to thank you so much. Hope you enjoyed the season ahead in English rugby does really well, but not as well as the Wallabies.
Conor O'Shea 31:47
Thank you very much. So that was good grace. Thank you very much for us.