Damien Hardwick Edit
Mon, 3/21 2:42PM • 30:10
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, players, game, coaching, people, strengths, question, sorts, great, style, story, understanding, conversations, alastair clarkson, team, year, incredible, organization, success, play
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Damien Hardwick
Paul Barnett 00:00
Damian Hardwick Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast. Morning. How
Damien Hardwick 00:05
are you? Thanks for having me. Oh,
Paul Barnett 00:07
no, actually Good morning for me late afternoon.
Damien Hardwick 00:12
Nilly beer time. So we wrap this up big, I can go and have a couple of beers. It's
Paul Barnett 00:16
really nice. I'll promise to try and make it quick and interesting, because on the only thing standing between you and that lovely stone, and with Halo we were just talking about. Now I'm looking forward to the chat. So it's been good to catch up. So Damian, most of the audience won't know about you in the tiger story. So I'm really interested in unpacking a little bit of the leadership style that you exhibited through this great run that the team's continuing to have. But maybe I could just start by going back and just talking about some of the great coaches you've had experience with because you've actually had first hand experience with two of the Great's of the game is Kevin Sheedy and Alastair Clarkson. You've also experienced Mark Williams and Dennis pagane, also. So from this perspective, what is it you think? The great coaches do differently? That sets them apart?
Damien Hardwick 01:02
That's a really good question. Actually, I probably saw that for great coaches, to be honest, they're all probably does it again in their own right. But probably the thing that I found is each is different and probably authentic to themselves, if that makes sense. Like I look at the great Kevin Sheedy, who I played for for about 13 or 14 years, and was very fortunate to be a part of if he's tenure at acident. And this is a guy that coached me for 153 games. So every week, he had to think of something to motivate me as a player to play not only for the jumper, but also my team, but also for him. And that was the great thing about shoots, his incredible motivator of men had this uncanny knack, even though one of the best sides in the competition to always make it feel as against them, yet an incredible sense of belonging with the team that he brought you along in the journey. And that's one of those things I think I took from him. First and foremost was a sense of belonging and team unity that was was really important. And that's fine. I had the great Dennis pagan, Dennis was a great player of systems had a really good sense of what a team look like and how it played. And we'll just pick the pieces to play that style of game and had incredible success in the the underage teams, but also his senior teams that he took over as well. I played under the great Mark Williams great choco Williams, who was an incredibly innovative coach was by far further advanced than any other coach I'd have in it and stones system of play and the use of trends. So it took a great deal of learning from him. And then probably the guy I probably base most of my coaching off the all time great Alastair Clarkson, who obviously just finished up last year, but for time premiership coach, and one of the things that Alistair was very good at and of hopefully taking into my coaching is his ability to storyteller and link a story with the journey of the team. And I think that was his great strength. Don't get me wrong, incredibly intelligent, smart guy, but the way he could bring these people along for the ride was second to none. And I think that's all I'll go down as well. Now your time great coaches have not only ifl but modern sport.[P1]
Paul Barnett 03:04
So talking about all time great coaches, you're well on the way yourself. You're now the most tenured coach in Richmond's 136 year history. There's not a lot of sporting organizations around the world that have that kind of history. But what's fascinating about your story is it didn't start so well. This year, there's nine straight losses. Next two seasons, it wasn't much better. What did you learn about dealing with self doubt, through those years,
Damien Hardwick 03:28
we came together 2010, which, like I said, last year, first nine games, and what sort of sat down and we went through as an organization.
And one other good thing about our organization, and I think the great organizations in general is the senior coaches as a part of the equation, but you really a byproduct of people. And if you get the right people, your organization, generally good things happen. So we had a really good understanding about what we wanted to look like. There's a great saying, I'm probably going to bugger this up in a way but championship teams are built or a championship teams way before the champions. So what we wanted to do is have a look and feel of our side, and then create an environment that we think would be a champion, ship team quality environment. [P2]
So we weren't winning a lot of games. But we still wanted to have the values and behaviors of a great funny side. So to the point where we would celebrate the smallest of wins. Like for example, if we won the coin toss before a game, that was an enormous thing for us, we would celebrate that as a victory. But yeah, the challenge for a coach when you're not going so well is your performance is linked to outcome, we measured by wins and losses. There's no doubt about that. But the fact of the matter is, if you've got a strong program, and you've got a really strong vision of what your club looks like, you can and if you get the right people involved and on board, you can sustain a period where you will build on the journey. And I think that's what we did very well.
We looked at every loss as a gift. You learn more from your losses and do your wins. And so we have this incredible mentality about you can choose to be buried or plan and you can choose to sit down and look down on life and boy, you can choose to be planted where all of a sudden you've got that real growth mentality where you're coming out of the earth as competitors Hang into it. And we're very strong on that. [P3]
It was really hard. Don't get me wrong, because at various stages, we weren't going particularly well, especially in those first two to three years. But I was very fortunate, a great team and people around me that are very strong and firm belief in not only myself, but the vision that we were trying to implement.
Paul Barnett 05:17
Now, what's fascinating about your journey, as a leader, it's actually it's marked by a dramatic change in style. And there was a book that was being written at the time. So you know, we can follow along and see these changes you went from being I think you've actually used these words, you know, a micromanager, who over coach to someone that stepped back became more available physically and emotionally, which then goes on to deliver through premierships? How did this change come about? Was there a person or event sort of helped you shift your style?
Damien Hardwick 05:46
Yeah, it was a, it as you said, it's probably a little bit well documented. But, you know,
we made three final series from 1314, and 15. But we got bungled out in the first round of the finals every year and 2016, I probably made a decision to be more, not so much, not me. But I decided to be harder on the team, I thought, well, you know, what, we haven't quite got where we need to go. And I'm going to create an environment where it's hard and tough and not so much fun. But what ended up happening, it ended up becoming a really negative environment, and it was purely based off fear. And you know, what happens if you sit there and you think about, when you're at your very best, it's when you're most relaxed, and you're probably got a smile on your face. And you're not thinking about the fear of outcome, you're just thinking about the process involved with creating the environment at that stage where it was purely based off outcome. So it created tension and anxiety. And players were nowhere near performing at their best. So they created this fear culture within our footy club. And I was very fortunate, our CEO at the time and present at the time, Brendan Gale, and Peggy O'Neill, it was a leadership course over at Harvard called authentic leaders, and you went over there. And effectively what you did you delve deep inside yourself did a lot of interviews on people around you about what your strengths were as a as a coach or a manager. So not only getting an idea of that, but also what you were like at your worst. And what I found is I'm an accountant by nature. So I love the detail all of nature's sorry, numbers. So what I found was, when I was at my very worst, I was crunching the numbers too much I was looking into data, whereas it wasn't trusting my gut or trusting my field. And then when I looked at myself, when I was the best I was at my best when I was happy, I was having fun, I still very much a hard worker, but it was more based around the fact that you do an incredibly tough job. But there's nothing to say that we can't have fun enjoyment at the same time. And the fact that matter is, the more relaxed I am, the more relaxed my team will be at the same time. So if I'm showing stress and anxiety, there's no doubt they're replicating what I'm feeling. So I really strong understanding about coming back to the 2017 season there being fun, relaxed, energetic, vibrant, all those sorts of things that are going to create a positive environment for our players, and allow them to be the very best players they they want it to be.[P4]
And I basted around my coach and my and my daughter's under 13 basketball side. Because I still maintain if you can coach your daughter's under 13 basketball side you can coach professional AFL footy, I guarantee trying to get the girls engaged and all that was was all about having fun and playing games, but getting them to learn along the way. And I had incredible success with that formula with the girls. And funnily enough, I took that formula across to my to my AFL coaching and was very, very lucky that it sort of it mirrored but their success I had at the girls level as well, which is which is really important.
Paul Barnett 08:29
One of the themes that comes up when you're interviewed and when I hear you talk is vulnerability, it seems like you've learned to embrace it, which is strange read Korea, you know, to make such a big change and and you use it as a means to build connections with people. Is there any advice or learning you've had about this topic of vulnerability that you might share with someone who's in a similar position with you struggling to connect with their team or struggling to reconnect with their organization and build a sense of belonging?
Damien Hardwick 08:55
Yeah, it's a it's a good point. Because
I think what happens is when you step into coaching, you're always trying to replicate the great coaches that you've had. So you're trying to take the very bits, best bits out of them, and China morph them into you. And there's no question I was trying to do exactly the same. But what you tend to do is when you're trying to be someone else, you're not actually bringing it yourself. And you're not realizing why the people that employed you in the first place they employed you because of who you are. So I was trying to be an imposter of sorts. I was trying to be the great Elissa Clark's and Kevin Sheedy Mark Williams get as pagan or as I wasn't being a hate repeating myself in third person, but wasn't being the very best version of Damien Hardwick. And that's what that that course taught me just do what you do do it well, because I've got incredible strengths in certain areas, but I've also got areas that I'm not great at. And what I had to learn and understand is I didn't have to be great at everything. I just had to be great at certain things. And the one thing I found it that I could compliment myself with other people in my organization, I was very good at this but you No, it's not my strength that area. So I'm going to employ someone that is an expert in that field. And that was a one thing I think that I, that I learned was I had to step back and I had to swallow my ego. Because I reckon the hardest thing as a leader sometimes is to say, You know what, in front of your pliers, boys, I don't know the answer. You know, as a leader, you always think you've got to have every answer. But the fact of the matter is, players can they got a great understanding when you're bullshitting them, excuse the language, but they've got a great understanding and say, Listen, you're full of crap. And I think what the players started to understand, and really like his effect, boys, I don't know why we lost the game, the mayor, and we did but we're going to find out we'll get back with the answer as a group of coaches. And the more I opened up to the players, the more they opened up to me [P5]
and the one thing I found is the started to 2017 season, I stumbled onto a book by John Gordon, I can't remember it was written by the human the Atlanta Falcons coach, I think he's surname is Smith at some stage. And I had this concept that they did called Triple H, which was hero hardship and highlight. And so we started to talk about connection as a team and connection as individuals. And we thought if we could strengthen that connection, that it will become a really beneficial thing for our footy club. And one of the first places stand up was a young lad by the name of Brandon Ellis, what Coach Brandon for six or seven years, and he told a story. And I was embarrassed as a coach that I didn't know the story about one of my best players, I didn't have the deep connection that I thought I had, I thought I was good. But in reality, I was just touching the surface of all my relationship with the players, I didn't really know the individual that was inside that exterior. And that sort of brought about a little bit of, you know, we're going to dig a little bit deeper here. Because the connection piece, for me is a word that, really when I think about all my success that I've had as a coach, but also as a player, it was a stronger connection, both on and off the field as a side, the better we replicated that success on field. And that was a one thing that I think we will really, really want to work on in the 2007 Eight season and have continued to, to delve into that because they're just such pivotal conversations that bring you closer together. And if you're closer, you're going to do things more importantly, above and beyond what you normally do for someone that's a teammate or a friend or a work colleague.[P6]
Paul Barnett 12:12
It's a powerful story. And I'm just wondering, in Australian rules football team, you've got 40 people in that room, maybe more with support staff. Yeah, in one of the things when we think about bringing vulnerability into conversations is this sense of fear that someone will laugh or belittle you? Was there any reaction in that room that you had to calibrate and step in and, and redirect,
Damien Hardwick 12:35
we spoke about it heavily at the start about how for this to work, you're going to hear some stories that are quite harrowing, you know, obviously, people have been through different upbringings, and all those sorts of things. But there has to be a level of trust in the room, that you are comfortable enough to tell this story in front of people that you're going to go on the field and battle for. And we spoke about that at length problem before we did the exercise, and had the conversation about Listen, what is in this room stays in this room. But understand the level of trust required from the person who's telling the story. They're putting there, some some quite horrific moments, and some embarrassing moments and things they're not proud of, they might be quite ashamed of. And for them to open up was incredible, really. But it had to have an element of trust, they had to have the trust between teammates between work colleagues. And it was a very fine line. Because there's no doubt, it was very fortunate that it worked for us and had great, great rewards. But then there's probably other organizations that don't have that trust, where it's probably not going to have the same impact as what it did for our organization. But then it sort of stem from myself and trade child our story first and foremost. And then we just went through its player and staff member and was the conversation in there was really important, but then would happen, what would happen is that over lunch, then the conversations would really start then you'd start to dig deeper. And then you start to talk about similar type of experience. And what tended to happen is we were a team, but then we became like brothers, in essence, and you became like a strongest sense of a family, which is really, really important. So a sense of purpose. And why became even stronger as a result of these conversations, or were having over prior to training sessions and over lunch, which certainly became part of the fabric of our music culture and what we got the success that we did.
Paul Barnett 14:16
It's an amazing story. And it's it's, there's documentaries and books about it. So if anyone's listening, I'll put the details in the show notes. Damian, there's a great quote from one of your players, Nick Leston, when he's referring to this change, and he says and I'd like to give you the quote for asked the question, he said, Now the puzzle has started to come together, because we're all different shapes. And the coaches are celebrating that, and not so much talking about what we're doing wrong, was actually the second half of that quote that caught my eye because he says what we're not doing wrong. And I wanted to ask you how did this conscious decision to focus on strengths over weaknesses start to cement itself in your style?
Damien Hardwick 14:54
Yeah, it was a little bit where I touched on on previously.
I think what tends to happen with coaching and this is is just a natural not even in coaching. It's just in life in general, instead of looking the glass half full, we always look at it's half empty. I was always looking at what pliers not always, but I'd probably tend to look at what a player couldn't do instead of what a player could do. And then what I started to find out what listen, if we started after the course that I did, looking at the strength of myself, but my team applies, if I started to look at what what they could do what I could then offset that, obviously, they're going to have some areas like me that they weren't, weren't as strong as I could compliment.[P7]
So I could then say, Okay, well, Nick Lawson's are late at base, this is probably the area that he's 20% that he's not as good but better holy makes up for that. And then best of all, he's very, very good at this. So I probably need a player that can pick up this area. So all of a sudden, we started putting players in their strength elements and getting them to understand how it worked to gel together. And through connection, they became this formidable unit, because what tends to happen regularly as a coach are always looking for mistakes, and the things that a player can improve. But what we forget to do is if you get to work on the players strengths, there's a reason that Nick Fosston, kind of our club, he was good at ABC and D, we didn't really care about the things that he wasn't good at NI and F, because he was so good at ABC and D. So let's just worry about that. Sorry about the things that he's needs work on, because I'll find another player that's really, really good at those. So I had a better understanding about stick to that players strengths and look at what he can do, don't worry about what he can't do, because there's other players that can do those things better than Nick. And that's what it stemmed from. So because originally what I was trying to do was I was trying to get all the players not to be robotic, but to play a certain style of game. And I wanted the game played in a certain way. But what that did is it took away the strengths of some of our players, it was some of our very best players because I was trying to get them, I was giving them paddock with small fences instead of giving a bigger paddock with bigger fences so they could explore their talent and let it come out, we still had a game style that we wanted to implement. But the reality was, we want the game to look a certain way. Because you guys figure it out, you've got these strengths, let's make sure we see them. And let's play to them.
Paul Barnett 17:00
I understand that not only did you leadership style change, but also the game plan. And it was actually if I'm reading this, right, it was a game of Connect Four with your daughter that got you to override a game plan, which then leads to three premierships. So I think I better ask about that game of Connect Four.
Damien Hardwick 17:18
There was funny I was Connect Four in the hardware council was a big it was a trial of passage. All right, good luck, as soon as you could, it was a big step. So my daughter was playing with, I was getting frustrated, because I'd sit there and I'd look at all and all this sort of stuff. And I was being aggressive and assertive, and all that sort of stuff. And then I look at it and this next thing she'd win, or she draw. And it was funny, I sort of looked at the end. And she'd always shoot me really because she'd give me a hard time. And I'd always say good always make an error. But what she sort of stumbled upon. And what I sort of stumbled on a result is I was always being aggressive trying to win. What she was doing is she was nullifying, but then she'd say I'd make a mistake. And then she'd pounce on the mistake. And then she'd win. So she then had a draw or would win, or I'd either win or lose sort of thing. And mainly it was losing. So that's funny, we sort of stumbled on that. And then we sort of thought, well, listen, we could take this, you know, well, our game plan, like end of the day, offensively, every play that comes into our system, they can play the game. So offensively, they can kick Mark Campbell, they've got a really good understanding of that. But a lot of the sides and a lot of the kids that come in, they can't really defend that well. So we devised a system of play that would allow us to defend really, really well. And then once he won the ball back what guys offensively don't do what you do, we don't to train that because you guys have been playing it your whole life. So it was a really good strategy. And based around that, that connect for game that sort of really, really kick started the strength of our defensive system, but more importantly, your style of game as well.
Paul Barnett 18:49
So we've got to have a course on leadership and a game and coming together to form a mental image at least the three previous shapes spent apprenticeships. They mean, your communication style, it's hard to know because we I've never been in the room I've only seen footage of your communication style seems to be marked by patients. You seem to take the time to offer clarity by adding context and honesty. You use questioning, to check for understanding. It's almost like a teacher in some of the footage. How is this evolved as your career has progressed? Has it always been this way? Was that also something that changed and evolved?
Damien Hardwick 19:29
I never saw myself as a coach. It was quite funny that Alastair Clarkson, who was great mate of mine, he could probably see it before I say sorry if that made sense because we had kids similar age.
So I really really enjoyed teaching my kids but also is used to enjoy teaching. They're teaching the sports like whether it was netball, basketball, those sorts of things I hadn't had any experience in but he could see that I had this probably understanding about how to tease the answers out of kids like at the end of the day as you think about your very best teachers. They're not the guys that stand up the front Intel, Intel, Intel, Intel, you lose interest with that. But it's always the teachers that engage in and get you to answer the questions and you feel like as if you're bringing something to the to the class, those are the sort of teachers you always remember. And I thought, that's what I wanted to coach like, I wanted to get the players to come along the journey, I want to feel as if every time I'd present in front of the playing group, it was like a production of sorts, so the players would walk it out. Wow, that was quite enthralling. So it's funny, I change rooms, and people come down there all the time. Yeah, we're professional organization play in front of 100,000 people, but he's dead set like an episode of Seinfeld. Because once again, we work hard. And we try and have a great understanding of how we play. But we want to be relaxed, we want to have the guys having the most relaxed environment, so they can bring about their best we don't to create this enormous sense of anxiety or stress, where the players start to feel tight. We want them to be loose when they go out on the field. So a lot of my coaching will be based around I'll start off generally with a joke or a gag to loosen the mood. And then I'll just go over things that we've trained, or the experience that we've had the understanding of, we've got what the game will look like, not only look like but also feel like is really important to our terminology as well. So those sorts of things have have grown into my coaching. But I'd like to think that most of it stems from going back and thinking about when I was at my most engaged from a teaching perspective, what did it look like from those points, and it's generally the teachers that asked you the most questions and bought you on the journey as well, which is exciting to me.[P8]
Paul Barnett 21:30
But that must have been imagined when you were younger, that wouldn't have been the type of coach you were playing for. I mean, you've listed some of the big names, but I'm sure it was a bit more fire and brimstone
Damien Hardwick 21:40
are definitely and that's where it's it's changed. And I think that was one of the things that like I said, I've been privileged enough to play on to some of the great coaches and Clark, I was very much like that, too. He was a teacher first and foremost. And I thought, well, he obviously had some some great success on TV. So I built on that as well. But we're probably similar in the way that we taught our kids certain things that you think about when you're teaching kids to ride a bike, it's getting them to figure it out asking them questions, but then it's the experience of falling over and falling over and falling over. So listen, this is this is the drill, this is what we're trying to achieve, go and have a try, then let's come back. And let's talk about it, not giving them the answer. Because if you give them the answer, it might be the right one. But it might not necessarily be the best answer, so to speak, it's not how they best learn. So it took a little bit of trial and error. And some things might take a little bit more time to get the point across than it might have been just listen, just do this. But once again, it's the buying and the journey that the players appreciate. They feel like they're part of the decision making process, which I think is vitally important to the very best sides.
Paul Barnett 22:39
So let's take that a step further then. So you try this approach trial and error questioning, guiding, coercing, cajoling, and then there comes a point where you've got to offer feedback, where it's just not working, what routines or methods have you found more effective at giving feedback in a more direct manner.
Damien Hardwick 22:57
So they get a great understanding about what does a Richmond game look like? What will it look like against this opposition? Okay, we'll look like a, b, c, and d, or what will it feel like? How will you feel if you're doing all those things we'll be speaking about, and I'll sit there and discuss them. But then what will happen is, unfortunately, we're playing in opposition. So the opposition sometimes don't allow you to play that way. So then what we speak about what we call be factors, so factors that will try and hinder our performance and we talk through them. So it might be the opposition is doing a tactic or the umpire makes a bad decision, or we're not playing as well as what we like, Okay, well, what are some things that we can work around that if that happens, that we can get back to playing our best and so this is all a visualization process, so we're asking the players Questions and getting them to come up with solutions. So they're already pre programmed as a way. And so all we're doing on the bench when we're trying to get that direct feedback is looking for a pre correct program response we've already seen in a visualization session on probably two days earlier. So it takes a lot of training. And we've got some fantastic coaches in this field that helped us with this, to get a great understanding a look of what a Richmond game feels like, looks like Sorry, but more importantly, what it feels like because the players can feel when they're in flow. And they can also feel when things aren't working quite the way they wanted to also,
Paul Barnett 25:35
I'm going to start by saying, You're a very rare individual that's played in a premiership and coached in a premiership, which is a wonderful thing. It's very fortunate. Now it's great for me too, because I get to interview someone who said that experience, but you've also had this great evolution as an individual. So if I could take you back and introduce you to that skinny bank teller, who was trapped by all accounts was a lazy trainer, but a fierce competitor. What advice would you give that person to turbocharge their learning and development?
Damien Hardwick 26:01
I think if I could go back, I would invest more time in myself.
One thing I have learned over the course of your journey you do through experience is to take care of yourself. I call it the demons daily philosophy to happiness. So life is hard. And coaching is hard. There's that great line, once you accept that life is hard. Life is no longer hard. But I've always found that in my job. And in professional sport, and all those sorts of things. There's more kicks in the bum than there was Pat's on the back. So I developed a list of five things that I try and do every day that will make me happy. So for example, one of them is the first thing I'll do is I'll exercise in the morning, I'll read for 20 minutes, I'll journal for 20 minutes, I'll get a cup of coffee, and I'll walk my dog. So there's five things throughout the day that even when I've had a bad day, I've done four of those five things. I've done some things that I've succeeded at, and I feel better about myself. If I was more organized and knew now I'd start that process a hell of a lot earlier in my life. Because the journaling to me, I found incredibly important, especially when you're going through a tough time, because what you'll tend to get are remember that time, and I wrote some things down about how I was feeling. But more importantly, what I did to get myself out of that, or what I learned from that bad occasion, it's become one of our most valuable tools about setting myself not only up for the day, but for my life. And we all go through it at various stages, you go through a period of life, they're in great flow, but then there's other stages we knock down as well as what you'd like to, but you've probably had an experience some two to three years prior to that, that you've had some sort of similarities in the event, or what did I do? Or what could I have done differently from that? It's amazing what writing down things for 20 minutes a day does for you.
Paul Barnett 27:45
That's a great answer. Was there someone which pick that up problem? Was it just something you started? Or did someone give you that?
Damien Hardwick 27:50
I think it was sort of started from I think there's a book called The 5am Club with Robert Sharma. Yeah. And it started from that I thought, Okay, well, this is what I can do. So I read it about five, five years ago, I think it was six years ago now kind of remember, but I started to implement because I feel I work my best in the morning. No question. I feel fresher. It's quiet. Yeah, there's no people floating around all that sort of stuff. So I feel I can get the best out of my day by starting early. And they are started the process about okay, these are all the things I want to sit down at CI we call it a power hour in that power hours such before everything starts to filter in one. So that's where I got that really good understanding about setting up my day and then working from there.
Paul Barnett 28:29
I mean, you've been talking about setting up your day, I'm just standing between you and that be so one more question if I could. Before I asked it, I wanted to just preface it with a quote and it's from from one of your players, the three times common middle is check very well. And he says it's always difficult to talk about truly personal stuff, but they yourself and the captain train coaching, admit their faults, and work on their strengths. They've taught me so much about leadership. It's a wonderful quote to receive from anybody, let alone someone in Jack stature. But what I wanted to ask you is, when you do hang up that we saw, what's the legacy hope you've left as a coach.
Damien Hardwick 29:06
I think the thing that I'm probably most proud of not only myself our organization is we've created a great footy club that we've created a great free environment for people to go on, and use the things they've learned from our organization in their life moving forward. Hopefully, they've become better footy players, but more importantly, they've become better men, better people, the great Doc Rivers, I think he starts his year off every year by saying, My name is Glen rivers, and I am human. I'm going to make mistakes. But that's the fact that if that's life, we learn more from our periods of hardship than we do from our periods of sustained success, but those darkest times and lead us to those periods of sustained success. So make sure you take the gifts of them and learn them and learn from them, which is the most important thing. It's easy to be buried very hard to be planted most of the time[P10]
Paul Barnett 29:53
being planted Connect for Harvard leadership. I think that's probably a great place for us to finish. Damien. Thanks. So much for your time on a Friday afternoon in Australia it's been a real masterclass in leadership listening to you and I wish you all the best for the season ahead
Damien Hardwick 30:07
pleasure mate thanks for having me