Dan McKellar edit
Sun, Sep 03, 2023 10:00AM • 43:00
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
brumbies, coach, players, coaching, people, great, work, group, head coach, team, staff, trademarks, game, bit, dan, understanding, lead, good, important, australia
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Dan McKellar
Paul Barnett 00:00
Dan McKellar Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Dan McKellar 00:04
Morning, Paul. Thanks for Thanks for having me, man. It's nice to nice to finally connect and, and get here after a couple of months of tooing and froing.
Paul Barnett 00:13
Yes, I've chased you through Europe, I chased you into Japan. And now here he is, I've got you in your in your garage up there in? Well, I won't tell people where you are. I'll ask the question. Where are you in the world? Dan, tell me what do you been doing so far today?
Dan McKellar 00:27
Currently, based in Brisbane, in, in Queensland, in Australia, obviously and, and I'm just sitting in my house and got this little downstairs area that I've managed to turn into a little bit of a man cave or teenagers retreat, depending on who needs it. Where I can do more work or sit on a couch and watch a bit of footy or TV or do a bit of training if I if I want to. So that's a good little space. And it's got polished concrete on the floor here, which is good, because as we know, make Queensland is hot, and especially this time of year, that keeps it a little bit cooler and make sure that make sure they're nice and comfortable to sit here and and have a really good discussion with yourself might,
Paul Barnett 01:08
then I'm going to start by just name checking a couple of the very good coaches that you've been been able to work with this Steve Larkin World Cup winning Jake white. And of course, recently Dave Rennie. I'm sure there's been many, many others that you've had chance to work with along your journey. But as you've seen these people up close, and you've watched them work, what is it you think the Great Ones do differently? That sets them apart?
Dan McKellar 01:37
Yeah, it's a really, it's a really good question. Because they are all very different. You know, those were human beings, the end of the day, we were as coaches, and as we know that we're all we're all different.
But I think that the common traits or common themes amongst the really good coaches, firstly, they're generally very curious people. They want to know why you do things, they want to know how they want to know the what and potentially when. And they're basically they've got a really strong thirst for learning and, and wanting to get better and better every day. And I think that's, that's a trait that most good coaches have. And obviously, I'll pass it on to their, onto their players and onto their staff[PB1] .
I think now as well, with this, you know, with a different generation, generational player, there's a real really strong emphasis on on care and connection with your, with your players, as well as your staff. And I think if you've got that, and your your people know that that's genuine, then that's a really strong trait to have. But at the same time, you need to be honest and, and you need to be direct and upfront. You know, we can't be sugarcoating things. And it's not always going to be an arm around approach or that carrot approach. Sometimes you're going to need to be direct and a little bit blunt and produce a little bit of stick at times. But that's, that's coaching. And that's the environment. That's leadership, isn't it, Leadership isn't always the most popular thing to do. And I think that separates the great leaders from from the not so great is that they understand that at times, you got to make decisions and be the person that isn't necessarily going to be the most popular in the room.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 03:27
Well, from the great coaches all the way back to when you started, and you were playing in Ireland with Wicklow when you became a playing coach. What do you remember most interesting, what do you remember finding most fascinating when you started coaching back in those days?
Dan McKellar 03:46
Yeah, it was certainly it was an eye opener. Because you know, I got that job out of the blue. A mate of mine was the previous player coach, and he was coming towards the end of his career. And he just sent out an email saying, who'd be interested? And I said, Well, I certainly wouldn't be I just missed missed out on a contract with the Reds as a player. So I got in touch with the club and they said, Oh, you're too young, you're only 25 You can't be coaching our 35 year olds, 36 year olds, we'd love to have a supplier I said, Well, if I'm from like me, as a player, coach, I'm not coming. So in the end, we come to an agreement, I went over there as as, as player coach, and I think I learned the importance over there having connection with them applies, but at the same time, or the same stage and understanding that as the coach need to be able to step away, and when you can, after a game or after a win, enjoy a beer with the boys and relax. But then I understand that that needs to be balanced within that and when when is the time to sort of pull away and and understand that there needs to be some separation of that particular moments, I learned very early on that you've got to be incredibly detailed, you got to be incredibly well organized, and planned. Because remember that I was a player, so I had to do a lot of the training with, with with the group as well.
So that was, that was a really important learning for me was being planned being detailed being organized, knowing within my session plan, this was this was when I was required to coach and this is when I was required to, to just be a player. And I think leading through my actions, that was that was the big thing I could never be do as you do, as I say not as I do play a catch, you lose the respect of the group really quickly. And I just had to front up and lead through my actions [PB3]
and, and I think early on, you know, I remember it was was amateur footy, had a real focus on on discipline and getting the team fitter than they ever had been. And I thought that if we did that, then then we'd win games early on off the back of being everyone understanding their role and everyone being fitter than they ever had been, and being fitter than the opposition and, and so I had to step in and, and lead the way and make sure that I turned up in pretty good physical condition to to ensure that are setting a good example for for my team.
Paul Barnett 06:25
Dan Laurie Fisher, when he was reflecting on you, he said, Dan has the three A's and aptitude for coaching an appetite for learning and ambition. You see all three and a young coach, you're prepared to spend time with them. And it was the aptitude thing that caught my eye and I'm wondering what early experiences in your life helped shape your aptitude for coaching in therefore leadership?
Dan McKellar 06:53
Yeah, that's, I think have naturally had a love. For coaching, to be honest, I think I was probably born to be a coach and in my initial days was I was always really fascinated by by rugby league, you know, I was a North Queensland boy. My dad was a rugby league player, you know, grew up around this sport. My parents were Republicans we'd sponsor the local rugby league team. So always had a real fascination around statistics and, and looking at the game a little bit deeper than probably most kids would. But so I think that love for coaching has been there from day one. And you know whether that was under Thirteen's it at Townsville grammar the school I went to whether it was coaching, Wicklow, south, the target on Vikings, it's been there from from day one. So I think when you when you love when you genuinely love something that helps and it makes it that whole much, much more easier than then I suppose it is for people who are considering it just as a career or something to help pay the bills.
And so I've always had a thirst for knowledge. And I've always had a thirst for detail. I think when I first started coaching at South that senior level in Australia, I wanted to be quickly become a coach, that's a quiet Cooper, when he returned from the reds and came back to play for South, that he was coming back to a coach or an environment who could help him get better at a level where he probably wasn't thinking that would happen. Now, that certainly wasn't the case early on in my coaching career, and I'll be honest, I wasn't gonna teach quite a whole lot back in 2007 2008, but from an early stage of sort of worked out that you had to work really hard to constantly look for ways to increase your knowledge and your detail on the game in all areas. And I think the move for me to Tuggeranong after South really helped that develop where I was all of a sudden coaching at semi professional level that I was I was in a full time role. I wasn't selling orthopedic implants anymore. I was I was just being a coach so I had all day every day to increase my knowledge and thirst for detail and clear understanding I developed relationships with you, Steve Larkins, you Jake whites, you Laurie fishers and Lisa Alexander from from netball, Australia from the diamonds and I've always had that. I suppose that curiosity around? How am I going to make myself get better every day? And how can I help my players get better?[PB4]
Paul Barnett 09:34
And one of the fascinating things about your story and you alluded a bit to it, there is you've coached all over the place, Sydney, Queensland and then you've been to Scotland, Ireland, Japan, Australia, and you've got England coming up. Yeah. How was this experience influenced the way you communicate with people?
Dan McKellar 09:53
Yeah, it's it's interesting, I think with with with any given sort of area or team or or, or culture that you that you're coaching, I think what I've learned over time is that regardless of the heritage of a player, everyone's different, you can't treat every player the same and I think different players need different things. And now how I would treat James slipper to Nick white, you know, for example would be would be very different and be very different to Royal Villa Tini again and I just think coaching nowadays even when I first started coaching in Australia, your group is very different than I was at the Brumbies I had a squad. It was probably 50% of Pacific background, Polynesian background and, and great boys to coach the bits, having an understanding of what makes them work, or what makes Scott SEO work or rockville attorney, Lenny cutout is very different to what would have made quite Cooper work or or van Humphreys work at Souths or as I said, James slipper very, very different. Your approach to each individual needs to be it needs to be different, regardless of, of where you might be coaching. And I think understanding that that's that that's so key, we're human beings, we're all very, very different. Who do you put an arm around to help get the best out of them? You know, who, who can? Who can? Who can deal with blunt direct feedback, or who needs to be treated in a different way to help because I think as a coach, you're always thinking, How do I get the best out of my people. And if you just have a one size fits all, then it's not gonna, it's not going to work, it'll certainly never work in. And I've learnt that, through all of my experiences as a coach, wherever it might be in the world or within Australia.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 12:02
With so many people on the playing list, let alone support staff, how do you get to the point where you can have that innate understanding of an individual to understand what they need, must be very difficult.
Dan McKellar 12:18
And I think that's where connections critical, you've got to spend time investing in the individuals. And that's, that's difficult. Because each each individual player has themselves to worry about really, from one day to the next, when you're a head coach, you've got 40 to 50 players to worry about, you've got 25 staff, you've got sponsors, you've got media, there's so many different roles that are required, so but what you got to understand is, is the time that you give that particular person is going to mean so much to them as an individual and for them to feel like you genuinely care about them. And it's not necessarily a caring, it's not just saying goodbye to them. In the hallways, it's it's investing in the making sure that they feel like if they're having an issue off the field that they can pick up the phone, and, and give you a call, you know, I mean, if if they feel that it's important for you to know, and I think once you've got that relationship with your players and with your staff, someone will come knock on your door, or, you know, I'm having issues with my relationship or, you know, there might be illness within the family or whatever it might be, or they've just bought a house, you know, you might be celebrating something. I think once you've got that within your relationships with your people, then then you know that you're in a really good place.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 13:51
And where do you get that feeling of care from that sustains you?
Dan McKellar 13:59
And it all comes back to just feeling like you belong within that particular room or environment or team or, or organization. And I think once you've got that At, then you can just be yourself. You can be yourself as a human being and, and we all know, you know, it's like we're most comfortable in our own homes while we're most comfortable in our own homes because we know we can be ourselves with our with it with our wives with our partner with our kids. Who were whoever it might be.[PB7]
Paul Barnett 15:21
Dan, you took over the Brumbies in 2018. And then in 2020, you win the Super Rugby au grand final, just a couple of short years later, what was some of the first things you did when you took over the Brumbies that drove that result? Yeah, it's
Dan McKellar 15:41
at the end of 2017. We're a group that looked at the Brumbies Silcock a bit for a bit of flack for it. We were very heavily reliant on onfield, we were relying on wall and structure. With it within our game, we're a very structured sort of team. So we weren't scoring enough tries. And look, that was that was something that we needed to, we needed to change, and, and address. So at the end of 2017, I came up with a vision along with my coaching staff that we needed to be able to score trials, we needed to be more threatening from from unstructured scenarios. And for that to happen we had to invest in, in other areas of our game, we still wanted to maintain what we were good at. But we had to develop and from counter attack from turnover attack. For us to compete with the Crusaders, the blues, the hurricanes, the chiefs, we need to invest time in these particular areas. And, and that was, that was a real challenge, because we've had players that have come through the Jake white era, that sort of continued on a Steve Larkins first stint as head coach. So they were used to doing things a particular way and asking senior players in their 30s, who've been doing it for over 100 games to do something different, was quite, it was quite challenging. They wanted to there was a real buy in and a thirst for it. But we didn't start the season, my first year 2018, we had a poor start, we didn't start well. And it was a really interesting time for me and my coaching career. From a very early stage as a head coach at a professional level anyway, that am I going to continue to believe in this vision and stay true to it. And understand that we'll need to push through some tough times here, or do you revert back to write out we've lost four out of the first six, we'll revert back to what we used to do. And that's probably something that I'm most proud of is that we did stick to it. The group stuck tight, we didn't, we didn't have the micro chat conversations where people were blaming the coach or blaming other players or blaming the vision or that sort of thing, we, we really did stay true to it. And we push through it. And I think in the end we developed into into a team that was a much more balanced team. We were still good at structure, but we were a team that could hurt you more but also hurt you in, in, in other areas.
And and then I think off the field I wanted to be we always had this nice or you know, reputation as a team that had had a great environment or a great culture. But if you walked into the new facility at the University of Canberra, and you're new to the Brumbies environment, did you really know what we lived and breathed and what we stood for was an organization and, and we didn't, so we developed our own values, our own pillars, and what we thought was our own DNA within within the group, and that still stands there now and it's referred to still today and from from one meeting to the next, which is, which is, you know, something off field that I'm proud of, as well.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 19:03
And I want to ask you about those trademarks, or as you describe them that DNA but if I could just wind back a little bit when you were when you had lost those four of those first six. And the doubt was setting in was there any particular event? Was this something that just gave you that jolt of belief? Or was it more of a just a gradual process based on everyone around you?
Dan McKellar 19:28
There was there was a particular game and I'll talk about that in a sec. But it was within the games that we'd lost. There were moments within that game where you could see what we tried so hard what we were working on what we were trying to develop. You could see moments of it, and then they'd be you know, we'd have passages of, of really brilliant play with a lot of skill and, and just different pitches to what we'd been used to with with the Brumbies Yeah, over the previous sort of six or seven years. So there was enough that I was seeing in games to, to, as I say, to believe in what I was doing and stick and stick tight to the vision that we had to go to South Africa. We played the Melbourne rebels one night in 2018. And we're well and truly in front, they stormed home over the top of us, we got a few injuries, you know, as a really disappointing dressing shed, and we went to South Africa the next day, and that was probably the best thing. For us at the airport, it was a pretty low, disappointed sort of environment. We weren't excited, I would say to get to South Africa. But at that particular moment, I started to give the players more responsibility. Around presenting and, and leading the group, you know, I was obviously still coaching as were the other coaches was were guiding them, but giving them more responsibility for what we were doing. And we went over and we played the lions in Johannesburg and led for a fair chunk of that game. And then we got a red card. And the lions were probably the form side at that particular time, we were just beaten in yet Johannesburg. And then the following week, we went to a venue where we could just try and eat have our meetings, it was just a one stop shop. And we're together. 24/7 And that really brought us together and and then we went out and played the balls in Pretoria that particular week and and beat them 14 men. And again, they are in the top three teams in the competition at that particular time coached by John Michell chock full of Springboks. And it was just a great game was probably the making of players like Tom banks. And after that game are I remember thinking to myself and talking to the coaches about it. We'll look back on this moment as, as the as the moment where this where this team started to really find confidence and belief in what we're doing.
Paul Barnett 22:03
Dan, can I ask you about these, I've heard you refer to them as trademarks. And they are connected with the different positions within the team. I'm wondering if you could just elaborate on that for us a little bit.
Dan McKellar 22:17
Yeah, so within our team room at the Brumbies in each position, we came up with five, five things for each position that we thought was was critical. For a prop, a lock, a wing, whatever it might be, to know it was really important. From from a coaching point of view, or from an organizational point of view, what was important for them to produce week in week out and, and where I think that it helped us was and helped the pliers was was in and around selection, and I would use the trademarks as a guide for for selection. They'd be displayed though they're they're obvious for everyone to see. So tight forward, for example, would know that world class set pace and physicality and repeat efforts are the two or three most important things for him to produce. For him to get in the team and stay in the team in the Brumbies from one week to the next, our winger would have an understanding that that we'd celebrate and reward effort that requires absolutely no talent for effort on chasing kicks, to turn an average kid into, into a very good kid just off the back of, of that particular effort understanding what was important to us, but then making sure as a coach or as a coaching group that that we constantly refer to those particular trademarks. And that we celebrated, celebrated them being done well. And never never veering too far away from them in terms of our messaging. I think what was in the trademarks, really LinkedIn with what was our DNA, I suppose it was our identity as as a team or as a club at the Brumbies and was pretty easy if a player wasn't producing the trademarks on a consistent basis. There was an easy discussion around around selection or if they didn't value them or didn't see the importance of them but also gave us a guide from a coaching perspective as well as okay this player is really good at these three or four things. We need him to chip away at this particular area here and it's on us and on the player to be accountable for that and take responsible responsibility to get better and in in that particular area.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 24:46
He those trademarks extend to the coaching group.
Dan McKellar 24:52
Yeah, look, I think our trademarks were certainly around work ethic, detail, planning and simplicity of message, I think they would be, they would be the trademarks that we certainly lived it lived and breathed as a coaching team. And I think over the last couple of years, I've learned that the other thing that needs to be added into that is this balance is life balance. And, and looking after yourself and remembering what's important. As I said, You're not gonna go too far as a coach, if, if you don't love what you're doing, and when you love to do something, it's easy to consume yourself with it and do it 24/7. But are you focusing on what's most important your family, you're getting to your daughter's primary school graduation, you're gonna watch her play, touch 40, or an apple game is really important to her and a taking the wife out for dinner, listening to her experiences, from her law from her from her work life and, and making sure that you've got that got that balance, because at the end of the day, they're the most important people to you. And I think that that balance helps re energize you. And when you walk back in the door the following day, or the following morning, as a group, and as a coaching group, you're much more re energized, much more refreshed. And the players feel that if you're tired, dragging yourself around the building, then that'll that'll SAP energy from the players and certainly rub off on them instead of being the other way we should be an energy provider.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 26:37
And I've heard you talk on numerous occasions about the importance of having good people around you as a head coach. Now, I know a lot of people will say that staff have everything and good people are the central part of the business. But I wanted to flip it around, actually and ask you what does having good staff around you allow you to do better? As a head coach? Yeah,
Dan McKellar 27:01
it's, it's like for most people, it's a bit of a no brainer, isn't it? But it's just so difficult to, to, to get quality people around you, you know, it's easier, easier said than done. And, and you know, until you actually start working with particular people, you're never really going to know, are they the right fit for your coaching group? Are they the right fit for the team, for the organization, but I think when you get it right, and if you've done your due diligence, with your recruitment, and also your attention, it just it allows you to trust your staff, and then that allows you to do your job really well. But I think importantly, it allows you to delegate with real confidence, knowing that whatever task it may be, that it's that it's been done well, I don't think anyone likes being micromanage. I think anyone likes micromanaging. And if you've got quality people around you, then that allows us that allows for for micromanaging to be something that doesn't exist within your, within your coaching group, your staff group. If you haven't a double check or triple check things that people are doing, then that's taking away important time from you as a head coach, it's not allowing you to focus on what's most important and, and that's one on ones with players, checking in on your staff, managing your people managing up making sure that you're spending time with your CEO, the general manager, with the board, making sure that sponsors are happy because sponsors want time with you as well, the media, all these sorts of things. [PB11]
And obviously, you know, overall your your environment and your culture within within your own team. I'm always going to be a coach that wants to coach on the grass. And I think that's, that's important, it's getting harder and harder. Because there's so much that goes into to being a head coach as compared to the very different role of being an assistant coach. But you've got to trust your people. And to do that you got to take the time to do your due diligence and be really thorough in making sure that you're not only getting the right skill set, you're getting the right character to join your staff group. And it might be sometimes you've got two people who are the right skill set. One person's more of an introvert. One person's more of an extrovert, an energy provider. What is your group need, your group might need an introvert someone who's just gonna go about his his job and do his task really well. And then you might or you might need a bigger personality to have the balance right because if we've got five Dan McCullers then that's that's not going to be a whole lot of fun for for for anyone is it's I think that balance within you within your group is so important. coaching team, not just head coach, everyone, the head coach will get all the praise so often, for wins, and he also got the hiding. If there's a few losses on the chart, as well that the head coach can't do it all on his own, it all comes back to your coaching team and your group of staff.
Paul Barnett 30:21
We're just picking up on that theme of the head coach not being able to do it all themselves. When it comes to developing leaders within the team, players, staff, whatever that may be, have you found anything that works better than other things?
Dan McKellar 30:41
Yeah, I have, I think, see, I'm a big believer that leaders are born, I think there's born leaders, you see kids as a 10 year old and you see the leaders within any, within any group, even at primary school, might be just a young bloke organizing a gathering of these mates come around and watch the grandfather or watch the Brumbies play or watch the Wallabies play, whoever it might be, I think you see those leadership qualities in people early.
I think a big thing with leadership for me is putting them in a position to lead and enable leadership. Otherwise, you could have five or six great leaders within your group. But if you never allowing them to actually lead if it's always going to be coach driven, or you know, that teaching style environment, then how they're going to grow and, and develop as, as leaders and ultimately become better in that area themselves and then make others better, as well, I think I think that's really important. [PB12]
We've done in the past, you know, more formal things like your 360 degree surveys, or whatever you want to refer to it as where staff and leaders will get a fair understanding on how they operate as people. Now does all of that necessarily help? Maybe not, but are there certain little bits of gold that you pick out of it, and for myself a really important part after doing a 360 degree. Surveillance myself was just that self awareness. And I think that's that's massive, like understanding what are you going to revert to, or default to under pressure, and under stress? And, and knowing that about yourself and right, oh, he's getting a little bit wound up when he's when he's under stress or pressure. Okay, now I'm aware of that, I can feel that coming on. I've got to take a breath, don't say what I might have said a couple years ago, don't hold back, sleep on it, think about it, then deliver the message that you want to deliver in a much clearer headspace or more mindset. [PB13]
And I think that, that self awareness is, is a massive part of leadership. And then obviously, once you've put them in a position to lead is providing them with feedback. I'd meet with my leaders. Every Monday morning, the first thing we talk about is leadership opportunities. Have we what are examples of them from the previous week? How did we go about showing leadership in that particular example? And were there also examples that we missed? And we were just left slide and and why did we do that? Make sure we're aware of that and make sure that we don't miss that opportunity. The next time[PB14]
Paul Barnett 33:50
you find that there's a pattern in the things that get left to slide within teams.
Dan McKellar 33:59
Yeah, I've certainly I've certainly seen him in often. It's just it's the little things. It's the little things that will let slide within teams that then add up over a day, every week, every month every year, and all of a sudden your environment is is is pretty average of 100%. experienced that and that's why generally the big issues within any team or organization will be dealt with, you know, the media might be involved or whatever and look at the Brumbies have never had to deal with any major off field off field issues. But it's the little examples of cutting corners off the field, which then lead to cutting corners on the field. And our field example might be leaving your cup your dirty cup or your dirty dishes in the sink, leaving your mount Franklin water bottle lying around in the team room. thinking that your time is more important than someone else's, and someone else will come along and collect that. And then that leads into, you might be doing a walkthrough or jog through on field. And we've gone to a wide break, and there's no pressure we're just jogging through, and you've just stood up or you know, hunched over their break in, in really poor position, not practicing great habits constantly. And then on Saturday night, is a wide breakdown. What's the muscle memory is all about the poor example that you've had at training, where you've had a training over, over a period of time that transfers all of a sudden, we're turning the ball over or throwing a line out poorly or haven't worked hard enough, because we just assumed that the guy inside me or the guy outside me would do that would do the work for me, I'm a big believer that off field discipline, well, and truly links into well on field discipline,
Paul Barnett 35:58
want to pick up this idea of what you do off field, influencing what you do on field? And I'd like to start with a quote, actually, from your day, and you say, the key for me, is at 745 on Saturday night? Is it your run under the field, and your headspace and mindset is so clear, that you can just go out and do what you do naturally, and perform your role well. And what I wanted to ask you was, Do you have any routines you use during the week? To help you have the right mindset on Saturday night?
Dan McKellar 36:33
Yeah, I certainly do. Have, I'll have a to do list. Every day, I'll write it to do list or update it from from one day to the next. And I think that's, that's, that's really important. I just feel if you've got things buzzing through your head, it can be overwhelming, but just write it down, write it down, and it's got that right, I've got 13 or 13 things I need to do here. What needs to be done now. Prioritize that 13, circle it, whatever it might be. I think once you've done that, then all of a sudden, it's a whole relief of stress or pressure on yourself. So knowing what I need to do on Sunday to get myself right. For Monday, what do I need to do Monday to ensure we're ready to go Tuesday, and it's just a flow on exercise is important. I think that's, that's, that's really important, I find it to be an outlet. You know, it's a pleasure in mind allows you to think with a little bit more creativity gets the positive endorphins flowing. [PB15]
I think that exercises is the greatest drug on the planet, you know what I mean? It's the more and more you do it, the more you want to do it, the more the better you feel about yourself both physically, and and both and mentally, as well. And, like, it's the same with applies sports, mental skills, or sports psychology is something that's in rugby union is so well and truly under under used or undervalued. And generally, it's an area that teams are struggling with budget and that sort of thing. It's one of the first things to go, but I place huge importance on it and value on it. And so much of it is just about educating and understanding, educating our players the understanding of of routine. What do you need to do to get yourself ready on Sunday to be ready to go Monday and then tick that list off and be the same from Monday into Tuesday. Because players need to be educated on what a professional rugby player looks like. There's paid rugby players, but there's professional rugby players and there's a big big difference. And the really great teams have have professional rugby players. And the also RANS generally made up of mostly mostly paid paid rugby players.
And the other thing for me is, is really clear messaging in and around that quote that you've got there is is making sure that as coaches staff, our language, our messaging is all aligned. If every coach or every staff member has his own different message or using your own different language, the players have 1000 things going through their head. They cross the line on Saturday night just with a whole heap of noise between the ears instead of being really calm and composed. And this is exactly what my role is. These are the three things that Dan X Next for me, will the coaches expect from me, I know that if I get them right, my contribution to the team is going to be strong. Collectively, if we do that from one to 23, then the process will certainly look after, after the outcome that we want.[PB16]
Paul Barnett 40:18
And I know you've got 13 things on your to do list there. So I might just ask one final question, if I could. I know you're still relatively early in your coaching journey, you've already coached in multiple countries and is heading off to the UK now to take on one of the powerhouses over there. But when we do look into the future, if you do ever hang up that we saw, what is it you hope the legacy is that you leave with the people that you've you've led?
Dan McKellar 40:49
Yeah, look, sort of thought about this and are, are really do hope that my players and staff think that through being coached by me or led by me that I've helped them become better footballers, better at their job. But equally or more importantly, just just be better people? I think that's what's most important to me. And for some people, that may take some time to actually realize that there's probably players now that wouldn't. That may not think that. But, you know, especially when it's an individual that you've had to have some difficult conversations with. But at the time, they may not necessarily hear exactly what what I was saying, but within time, they think back and maybe he was right. But that's that's the legacy that I want to have is, is that they enjoy the environment that I created. And they felt that they were better professionals, better footballers, better physios, better analysts, better coaches, but also, but also better people and looked back on the experience really fondly. I think that's, that's the legacy that I would want to leave now leaving an organization in a better place than when I started is, is really important. And yeah, I hope I've done the Brumbies.[PB17]
Paul Barnett 42:19
Dan, it's been great to spend an hour with you today. I wish you all the best as you head over to the UK. Great place to live. And all of us back home will be watching your trajectory with great interest.
Dan McKellar 42:33
Yeah, it's a it's a real pleasure, Paul, and Thanks for Thanks for inviting me on to be honest. It was really flattering after seeing some of the guests and the people that you've spoken to to be reconsidered. Suddenly, you may want to have a chat to it was. Yeah, it was nice to Nice to know and I hope I heard you and the listeners get something out of it. Thanks, Dan. Pleasure. Thanks, Paul.