Danny Kerry Edit
Thu, 11/4 7:42AM • 27:20
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
athletes, people, coaches, experimentation, environment, life, feedback, danny, bit, lead, conflict resolution, olympics, process, feel, seek, psychologist, self awareness, set, ability, role
SPEAKERS
Danny Kerry, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Danny Carey. Good evening, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Danny Kerry 00:03
Thanks, Paul, thanks for inviting me.
Paul Barnett 00:05
We're very excited to talk to you because you're just back from the sunny climes of Malaysia, and you're getting ready for what we hope will be the Olympics in Tokyo. But also excited to talk to you, Danny, because you've had time, you've spent time with some amazing coaches. So I really want to get into that with you today in this interview.
Danny Kerry 00:22
Yeah, I have to say I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm sure you'll be gentle with me.
Paul Barnett 00:26
I'll definitely be gentle with you. But let's start with a really easy question. If I could just where are you in the world? And what have you been doing today,
Danny Kerry 00:33
I live just about 11 or 12 miles east of Oxford. And then early this morning, I had to drive to Bisham Abbey, which is about half an hour south from here, which is the National Training Center. And I had to do a PCR test. So at 8am This morning, I was having my back of my throat and my nostrils, interrogated for about the 50th billionth time this year. And then I drive straight back home and jump onto a series of teams meetings by online. And after this interview, I've got to pack my bag because tomorrow, we're off to the sort of National Stadium in London Lee valued part of the London 2012 legacy in readiness to play Germany on Wednesday and Thursday in the pro league.
Paul Barnett 01:14
Given that spin your day, we are equally thankful that you've managed to carve out a little bit of time for us. So we promised to try our best to make it an interesting interview. Danny, could I just start actually, by referencing some of the great coaches you've had the chance to work with? There's Dave Vinson, there's Barry dancer who I know had a profound influence on you. And there's also Eddie Jones. So maybe just a simple question, if we could just start, what do you think the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Danny Kerry 01:41
I don't think there's one thing, there might be a common thread at my senses that the ones that I've met anyway, I feel they have the real courage of their own convictions, and they hold their position strongly, but also possibly with an element of curiosity for other views. So that ability to hold hold true to what they believe, while still having an element of curiosity about how to do this better. I think it's sort of a common theme in the coaches I've had looked up to him and have worked with and as part of that, I think they play to their strengths. What you see is what you get, I don't think there's any great bravado about the really top coaches, they are congruent with themselves. And I think over time, that's something you can maintain. You're not trying to be somebody you're not,[PB1]
Paul Barnett 02:28
Danny, you've got a Bachelor's of Science, I believe, and a master's in culture and society. And so I wanted to ask you, knowing what you know, now, having been to the Olympics, secured that gold medal worked with these great coaches, what do you wish they would have taught you back at university?
Danny Kerry 02:46
That's a really good question. And I am very nervous, because obviously, I was at university sort of 2530 plus years ago now. So when I was at university, it's a male of chains, it was really just about sort of accumulation of knowledge, which you then had to regurgitate sort of an examination time. It wasn't, in my experience, sort of the application of experiential learning, it was really just the accumulation of knowledge and ability to write it down and exam at the end of it. I'm sure there are university courses now that possibly work in this way. But if it were more about your application of experiential knowledge, and what you learn about yourself in the process of doing that, that I think would have been a really good university experience in terms of being able to fulfill your roles in life better.
Paul Barnett 03:35
Of course, experiential knowledge is at the center of your coaching philosophy. But if it's okay with you, I'd still like to go on a little bit of a journey and build up to that, if I could, I'd like to ask you about your approach as a coach, because you're very focused on it being an athlete centered approach, and purpose being at the very center of that. And so I wanted to ask you, can you share with us how you would uncover and work with an athlete's sense of purpose?
Danny Kerry 04:02
Yes, I think in the role I work in so I work in a team sport. And currently we have 26, sort of full time athletes. So it's sort of how do you do that collectively across 26 athletes, but also on a one to one basis as well, a lot of what I'm going to talk about, I need to give you credit to Katie Warner, who's the psychologist that leads this process in our in our program and also Tim pit who's also the other psychologist that also works with this process. We call it the wide discovery process. Many people are familiar with the Simon Sinek sort of start with why famous TED Talk, philosophical approach. And essentially, there's a real guided process led by the psychologist and I'm privy I'm very fortunate to be involved in this, both doing it myself and also listening to the other athletes stories in this process, but a real guided process around the athletes exploring their life histories. reflecting on what have been the really most satisfying and enjoyable aspects of their lives, what are the things they look fondly back on equally the things that they found challenging in their lives. And in doing that, trying to understand what they bring from the past to the present, and why they act and behave the way they do. And we start to serve and on earth, in a self insight in our athletes, and connect them perhaps with the things that they love about what they do, to allow them to have a greater sense of perspective about what they do and why they do it. And at its core, that understanding, why do you do what you do? And what would you want to have as sitting behind the purpose for what you want to do, that process goes on in really, over a number of sort of extended, interviews, conversations, conversations, a better word. And that gets sort of boiled down and simulated. And once the athlete feels very happy and contented, really got to a place where they feel they understand their why they are then sort of guided to present that to all of us so that all of the other athletes and all of their staff, so it becomes a sort of a greater level of mutual understanding between the athletes and the staff. And that creates a greater level of mutual support between because we tend to know where people come from, what they enjoy about their life, that what they're seeking from what they do, and what they want from others in that process and what they need from others in that process. And that's how we go about it in the current Great Britain men's hockey program.[PB2] I think it's only fair that I reference Katie Warner and Tim Pitt and who really lead and do an excellent job in that process. And the athletes who've engaged with what on the surface can be quite a frightening process to engage with. But by the end of it, I think they feel something they've really enjoyed, and also allows them to possibly lead their life in a more purposeful way.
Paul Barnett 06:45
Danny, if it's not asking too much, why do you do what you do?
Danny Kerry 06:49
I went through this process when I joined the men's program. I think, for many years, especially in my early years in coaching, it was probably for the wrong reasons, it was sort of seeking possibly affirmation from others based on sort of outcome. So that was very dependent on outcome. And, obviously, I'm not always in control of the outcome. So you're seeking affirmation through outcome, it can be a bit of a dangerous place to be. And I would imagine a lot of people in a lot of domains lead their life that way. And I came to recognize largely through this process, that it was a bit of a challenge trap, and there was needed to connect with something more, more meaningful. So going through that process and understanding, I really enjoy a sense of belonging to a group with like minded individuals. So I really enjoy that sense of being in a team of all striving for a similar set of values. And I also really enjoy that sort of strive for expertise that strive for mastery over something. And those two things I would now describe as sort of a my wide sort of that sense of belonging, particularly in amongst people who have a similar set of values. And also, I really enjoy that sort of strive for expertise, and enjoy trying to refine and do as well as I can in the area in which I work[PB3]
Paul Barnett 08:05
Danny, we haven't met before today. But this idea of self awareness comes up a lot in articles that are written about you and stories that you've contributed to, it actually seems to be very much at the center of your leadership style. And it's an extension from there to say that the onus for action also sits with the athletes. So this self awareness is something you want to encourage with them as well. But how do you start encouraging someone, one of your athletes to be more self aware?
Danny Kerry 08:35
Yeah, I think there are a number of strategic stroke tactical things you can do as someone who is serving to lead in a program, one of those is to model that behavior yourself. So being open about the journey, you've been on what you've learned about yourself, and how that has helped you and the presence. So you're sort of modeling that behavior, that self reflection, [PB4] we do some form, you know, more formal, psychological tool, psychometric type inventories with the athletes, we currently use a tool called Spotlight. And that's always a really quite a powerful first step, especially for some of our younger athletes sort of early 20s, when all of a sudden they sort of may start with a large degree of skepticism about some of such tools. And when they go through the questionnaire and survey, and then they get the feedback back it. I think it's almost like a real lightbulb moment of wow, wow, I didn't realize people can understand that about myself through answering certainly do. So that's a nice reference point for further conversations. And then I say the further conversation so there's the why discovery process that I mentioned. And then there's lots of elements of some peer to peer feedback. So there's a raft of strategic stroke tactical things we do to sort of bring out that self reflection bring out that self awareness. I would really emphasize I think there's a need for people In head coach positions, if you feel it's that seminal, which I do to model that behavior, you can't expect it of others, unless you're willing to demonstrate to yourself[PB5] ,
Paul Barnett 10:10
I could talk about modeling that behavior for a minute, because it was actually the modeling of change and self awareness. That was the turning point in your coaching career. And you've talked about a lot in press where you've said, after the Beijing Olympics, team went into the tournament, ranked 11th, they finished sixth, which was good, you were coaching the women's team at this stage. But it was the review afterwards, where you were called grumpy, miserable, and unapproachable.
Danny Kerry 10:36
Those are my words, there are a lot stronger words than that written, but they're probably the words we can use on a podcast,
Paul Barnett 10:43
when I was reading about that, I thought you were actually lucky to have the type of relationship with the playing and the staff group with they would be willing to give you that feedback. I don't know whether it was direct, but at least they cared enough to give it to you, many other coaches don't get that they're not lucky enough to get that. So what kind of what are the steps you would go through, you would advise someone to go through to build a culture where this kind of honesty is at the forefront?
Danny Kerry 11:11
I think it's really important that I would say, I don't think that environment existed during the Beijing Olympic cycle. And at the end of it, I received that feedback through a very significant end of Olympic cycle anonymous survey. So that's not disrespectful of people who fill out that survey, I think that is more an indictment of sort of probably that classic environment where you've got this head coach, and people are too fearful to provide the feedback. So they store it all up until there comes a point in time where right you're asked by an independent body to give feedback, and it's given anonymously. So it's no holds barred, it's all been bottled up for some period of time, I wouldn't want to give the wrong impression. I'd like to think now, to a degree to a larger degree that we probably have a much better environment where people are more willing to be open and talk about that. Always, we can always do better in that regard. But after Beijing, it was more a case of an anonymous survey. I think today is present day. I think, again, a bit like the why discovery process. It's that modeling, wanting of feedback, seeking the feedback, thinking about the space, and the time, and how you set up the environment to seek others views. So they feel safe enough to offer their opinion, safe enough that they don't feel it will be judged and held against them. And you have to build that trust in that relationship over time and evidence that you are going to take notice and make change or if you're not evidence that you've listened, heard and then give rationale for why that perhaps hasn't been changed. And I would say when people are giving you feedback that you perhaps it's difficult to hear and I can definitely be quite bristling at times when I'm tired or fatigued, and you're receiving something you think, Oh, you just don't understand, you won't be honest, you've got to hold that in. And you've got to try and hold judgment and seek to understand their perspective genuinely seek to understand their perspective. And I think over time, people will see that that is what you are doing. And over time, therefore their ability to continue to give you the feedback that you wish, or more honest and open feedback that you wish will will materialize, but it takes time.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 13:26
So what did Beijing teach you? What was the lesson that you carried forward on that road to the gold medal
Danny Kerry 13:32
that basically is 1008. On the three years leading up to that I didn't have much self insight. And I simply didn't appreciate it, how I made people feel, which wasn't great. I didn't have the self insight.
Paul Barnett 13:43
Danny, you're known for your experimentation as a coach of not being afraid to try things and fail and then just move on facts become a hallmark of your teams. Is there an example you can share of where experimentation has delivered increased performance?
Danny Kerry 13:59
In 2007, I started to float the idea with a women's program that statistically we had bumped between 12 and six in the world rankings for 20 plus years and something significant needed to change if we were going to meddle in our home Olympics in 2012. So in 2007, I started to float the idea of centralizing the program. So asking athletes to relocate to a national training center, massive Ask, and it took to 2009 before that idea started to get traction that had been done in some other sports, but never in a British context with a team sport. And you can see this experimentation you can see it as a leap of faith. But the results speak for themselves. From that point onwards, we've consistently meddled or we had consistently metal from 2009 right the way through to 2017 18. So I like to think that was experimentation at work well, and the other thing I think, especially in hockey and I'm a little bit this sounds a little about blowing my own trumpet so I'm a bit But I feel I was at a pretty early adopter of some of the emerging research around skill acquisition and what that meant for our training environment. And now with Twitter, and how quickly things take a life of their own, the coaching landscape has shifted dramatically. It's alive with sort of concepts that I've been sort of playing around with since around 2009. And what went out 2021 I was a pretty early adopter of those. Intuitively, some of those things like constraints that approach repetition, without repetition, intuitively, I felt they were appropriate and sort of spent a lot of time trying to master my trading craft in there. And it was definitely seen as experimentation. And even to an extent, it still seems a bit of experimentation today, there is still culturally ingrained view of sort of block repetition and its role its place in coaching in sports. So that two sort of particularly big aspects that I think I've experimented with, of course,[PB7]
Paul Barnett 15:58
the bronze in 12, and then the gold in 16. So that experimentation sets you on the journey towards those great results. But I've also read where you've talked a lot about self limiting beliefs, and you actively engage your athletes on this very topic, what kind of questions or advice do you give them to deal with this voice, they may have the holding them back,
Danny Kerry 16:23
this is a underreported or not emphasized enough aspect of the role of a coach, I think the norm is that people have not been to these heady places is not normal for people to have been let go to Olympics, let alone medal Olympics. And so working against people's sort of limiting beliefs about what they're capable of, is quite a key part of our role. Now, some athletes come jam packed with belief that they can do it. But my experience in the UK anyway is that's not the norm, the norm is full of self doubt. First of all, normalizing that self doubt, and, and almost talking to the fact that probably the majority of gold medalists or Olympic level, have all been in the same place and normalizing it, exploring with the athletes, where their self limiting beliefs have come from, and whether they actually based in fact, and often than not, and then often sort of looking at some of those athletes, role models, and maybe perhaps exploring some of their lives and where they've come from and what they've worked with and against overtime, and how they've achieved through essentially faith. So sort of breaking down with the athlete, why they think they work the way they do, is it based, in fact, looking at examples, almost any example in high performance sport where people have sort of had to struggle, and often that struggles with their own self doubts, and therefore normalizing in the life of an athlete. And that's the root of the conversations and where they tend to sit again, we have good psychologists working with our program, but often as a head coach, you know, some of the most important conversations I have with athletes are around some of their self limiting beliefs.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 18:06
Actually, if I could follow up and keep talking about psychology, actually, you talked about Katie Hayes earlier, but I've read in multiple articles where you've talked about the importance of conflict resolution. And I was fascinated to read actually about the role that Katie Hayes, psychologist you have played in this area for you. The question was, if other leaders wanted to bring a focus onto conflict resolution, what would you tell them to do first?
Danny Kerry 18:32
Yeah, I just a couple of things, Paul, when Kate. So we have a psychologist Katie Werner, who's currently in our program, and Kate Hayes was the lady was brought in particular piece of conflict resolution, that actually is an important part of almost my initial answer, it is significant conflict resolution, then often bringing someone from the outside can be very helpful, because they don't come with any preconceived notions or ideas, the people that you're working through the conflict with, may perceive that they're a safer listener, they're not coming with their own judgment and preconceived ideas. So often, it's how you set up the environment, who you set it up with, and when you do it, and then the person that's facilitating that conflict resolution. So it was Kate Hayes, in this example, with a women's program in 2014. The thing that Kate did was contract at the start of that process about how the process is going to run. So get agreement, what this is going to look like and feel like so contract process. And then I'm not sure whether Kate Hayes did this or not. I wasn't privy to some of those conflicts, or I wasn't privy to that particular process. But when I've seen it done previously, it's almost finding out actually, what is the common purpose here. Don't start with the differences start with what is the common purpose which we can all agree on. And then the next thing is to seek to understand people's intentions behind people's behaviors, often a conflict tends to be a reflection of what the behaviors were people's assumptions about those intentions. So trying to seek some understanding around those intentions and understand the assumptions. And often the case is once people understand some of the intentions behind some of those behaviors, and we deconstruct some of the assumptions that have previously sat there, then you're in a good place to sort of move forwards. Often, it's just assumptions that provide the conflict and things that aren't going said, is where the simmering conflict can like.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 20:34
Great answer. Thank you, Danny, could I switch gears a little bit, actually, and ask you about thinking Thursday, and the training routine that you put in place behind this,
Danny Kerry 20:44
I think even the phrase, as I've mentioned, is an alliteration. So it's sticky. It's something that's memorable. And I think as coaches, that's a really nice concept to think about. Essentially, you're trying to create a learning environment where the important learning sticks and thinking Thursdays themselves was sort of born out of that concept, we wanted to create an environment where what we were doing in the practice environment would transfer to the Olympic environment. So in the fifth and sixth, seventh and eighth game of the Olympics of quarterfinal semifinal medal matches Olympics, the very hard lesson is that we were trying to learn our environment would transfer in the moment really major matches under huge fatigue, under sort of judgment, consequence and expectation, they will transfer into that environment. So often coaches will talk about specificity in the environment. So ensuring that your environment sort of replicates is representative of the environment you're gonna go and compete in, because if it doesn't have that representativeness, not adapting people to the environment that they're going to go and compete in. So I have often felt that the bit that's been missing is the creation of emotion within training. So we can recreate some of the density of decisions, the speed of decision is the physical speed, the physiological fatigue, that's bread and butter for coaches, I can do that pretty easily. It's doing that then in a way that also creates emotional response. And what you're then seeking is the athletes ability to regulate their emotional response in almost finding their optimum and their ability to regulate themselves to fulfill the tasks grip themselves, grip other people around them grip the task and go about problem solving. We will often create pressure in their environment through things like judgment, consequence and expectation, we will often dislocate people's expectations and that's a direct ripoff of supply of wood woods, sort of dislocation of expectations. So you know for its turn up expecting one thing that's operating them or certainly change the goalposts, you make it a different set of tasks or different set of rules or the way that Umbar interpretation is happening changes. And you are going to create some emotional upset there. And what you're looking for the athletes ability to to grip themselves self regulate and stay on task. There's also some long term strategic gains around leadership and followership[PB10] . So again, you can deliberately design the mini tournament's we had on a thinking Thursday to have leadership and followership challenges built into them. An example of that at the end of some of the men's training sessions on Thursday, we asked those in followership positions to feed back to the leaders and the leaders to feedback to the followers. So you have, in the moment debrief around the qualities of leadership that were used, saying for followship and done over months and years, you are building those set of skills that are going to be required in the Olympic environment. So that's a whistle stop tour to thinking Thursdays.
Paul Barnett 23:47
Well, the name sounds a lot simpler than the actual application.
Danny Kerry 23:50
Apologies if that was a bit wordy.
Paul Barnett 23:53
It wasn't wordy at all, I was wondering how I can apply it to my own team. But I think this whole idea of emotional regulation, when you are faced with a heightened stimulus around you is actually quite a powerful one. And it transfers into all elements of life. Actually, I maybe would build on that by saying, I believe you have two daughters, and I guess one day they're going to come to you from for some advice, or maybe they'll stop coming to advice for a while, but they'll definitely come back at some point in the distant future. When they do ask you for some leadership advice. What would be the top things you would tell them?
Danny Kerry 24:27
I think you've got to be able to lead yourself before you can lead others. That sounds easy, but it's really not, especially in pressured environments. So your ability to lead yourself is going to be fundamental to your ability to lead others. And in order to do that, again, you've got to understand yourself first[PB11] . Again, that sounds easy, but I'm not sure how many people really do understand themselves. And they're there to probably I hopefully they sound pretty sage and wise whether there are two bits that I would probably pass on to my to my daughters and if they wanted to get to into the ins and outs of that I'm sure I could sort of bring some examples from their current lives to sort of bring that to life.
Paul Barnett 25:05
Danny, I'd like to just ask one final question, if I could. And I'd before I'd ask it, I'd like to just bring back a quote I have from you, actually. And you say, when we think about the role that we do, do we give enough thought to the fact that we create moments that live with people in a good way? And done right? It pays dividends when it needs to? So wanted to finish by asking you, what is the legacy that you would like to leave as a coach?
Danny Kerry 25:31
I think the thing that I'm proud about with many of the Olympians that sort of went through London, 2012 and 2016 is I think they have a heavy sense of understanding of who you are a real sense of their accountability to one another and how they supported each other through what was an incredible 812 year journey. And I think the skills and life experiences they learned on the way has set them up for life. And some of that was intentional. And some of that has been very lucky circumstance on my part. So if I were to summarize, I think whipping people with skills that move beyond just playing hockey skills, life experiences that will set them up for life.
Paul Barnett 26:17
Can I challenge you on that? Yeah. 100% I think there's something in your story about self awareness leading to change that leads to adaptation and this ability to, to cope with what's put in front of you. And I wonder whether adaptation and that willingness to just step into whatever's in front of you and find a way to cope with it might not be the legacy that people reference when they think about you. And you retire in the distant future. Just a thought.
Danny Kerry 26:47
Yeah, I guess for me that would come under my umbrella, some of the life skills, you know, it's a bit cliche, but feel the fear and what's the worst that can happen and embrace it and go for it?
Paul Barnett 26:57
Yeah. Danny Carey. It's been wonderful chatting to you tonight. Thank you for doing one more call with us at the end of what sounds like a really busy day and in good luck for Tokyo unless you're playing the Australian team.
Danny Kerry 27:10
Thanks. Cool. Well, they're in the other pool. If we play the Australian team would have been doing something right.
Paul Barnett 27:14
Thank you, Danny. Good luck.
Danny Kerry 27:16
You're really welcome. Thanks for your time, Paul. I really appreciate being asked.