Don Showalter edit
Thu, Aug 24, 2023 9:48AM • 41:05
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, players, mentor, great, basketball, authentic, assistant coaches, young, practice, trust, learn, talk, book, part, question, team, teach, comfort zone, give, john wooden
SPEAKERS
Don Showalter, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Don show Walter. Good morning might So good afternoon to you and welcome to the great coaches Podcast.
Don Showalter 00:07
I'm thrilled to be on the this podcast. I know you've done a lot of coaches in the past, and I'm just thrilled to be a part of what you're doing.
Paul Barnett 00:17
done something really simple to get his going. Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today? I'm
Don Showalter 00:25
based in Iowa, but the Colorado Springs where our offices that so I get there now and then. But basically, I've traveled so much that it doesn't really matter where I'm located, I can travel wherever I want to. So between camps right now I run a run a snow Valley basketball school where we have 375 campers, in each session, we have four sessions, and I'm right in the middle of that right now. So it's a busy time, a good time. I mean, anytime you deal with basketball, it's a good time,
Paul Barnett 00:55
we're going to talk all about those travels with, we may even talk about the camps as well as we go along. I know you met someone famous there. But could I just start on by talking about some of the law, they are actually the giants in the coaching world that you've had experience with? John Wooden, George raveling Pat Riley. And of course, there's Mike Kruszewski, as well. I have to ask you from this perspective with some of the greats, what do you think the really great ones do differently that sets them apart?
Don Showalter 01:29
Yeah, that's a great question. Because in my my travels, I get to, I get to go to practices and watch players and watch coaches coach.
And I think that's one of the things that John Wooden was very good at Jay Wright is good friend of mine, as well, I think he's really spectacular, doing things that that, you know, they know how they know how to present something still being organized. And that has been of course, Coach K is probably one of the top top people in that. I also think there's some other things that really go into making a great coach, I don't think humility is one. I think the great coaches are very humble. John Wooden was as humble as anybody else. And he didn't have to be, you know, he won 10 national championships and, but he was very, very humble and, and really took, you know, us young coaches at his camp under his wing and, and really was really was trying to, you know, give us something to make us better. And I think he certainly did that. Jay Wright's very humble. So I think humility has a lot lot to do it. And I would say humility is something that if you if you don't have humility, you're probably not going to learn anymore. Being humble allows you to learn as much as you can. So I think those are two of the main things that make good coaches. Great. And sometimes I think the term the term grain is overused a lot in my estimation, I don't think there are a lot of great things great. You know, great coaches, I think a lot of very good coaches. But I think there's some separation there as to what really makes the great coaches different from the very good coaches[PB1]
Paul Barnett 04:11
doing in the book, you tell the story of writing to John Wooden and asking for an opportunity to coach at his his care but it was this moment perhaps more than any, or definitely the way that you presented it that changed the trajectory of your life. And I'm just wondering, what did this lesson is reaching out to John Wooden What did this teach you? Well,
Don Showalter 04:36
you know, first of all, I was I was just a young, just college graduate and wanted to do I was you know, I still am passionate about the game of basketball so I wanted to I don't want to be around the best. And whoever that was at that time, of course John Wooden but you know it, first of all, it taught me to step out of my comfort zone a little bit You know, writing a letter to coach John Wooden, who was arguably the best coach and in the world that time. And so it allowed me to step out of my comfort zone a little bit. And also, I think taught me that, you know, sometimes you, you have to, even if, even if the door may close, I think you have to take chances with opportunities. And that's what I did. And, you know, I was, I was shocked to get a handwritten note back from Coach Wooden and, and led you led to being a counselor the first year, and then also being a coach that first year. And, you know, that time I was like, 21 years old. And I wouldn't, you know, I was doing everything, as a counselor, you know, mopping floors and blowing up Africa, Pomona, basketballs, just doing whatever I could. And evidently, I did I did those things pretty well, because then they asked me to be Come on, come on board as a coach. So. So, you know, I think those kinds of things teach, especially young coaches, you know, the fact that you, you have to make the initiative, I mean, people are, people are not going to come calling to you to a, can you coach this team? Or can you, you know, you have to make the initiative, and then that, that starts the whole train of making contacts and making good contacts with other coaches and, and other opportunities opening up. So that was definitely one of the things that certainly helped me out[PB2]
Paul Barnett 06:35
is a terrific passage in the book that says, and this is the quote, the energy for building a program rests with the head coach, but the implementation of that energy lies in that coach's ability to empower assistant coaches to be part of the process. And I wanted to ask you, can you share with us the best ways that you've learned to empower others?
Don Showalter 06:59
Well, yeah, I mean, I think, and, and as a young coach, I didn't really understand that. But as I coach more years, I understood, first of all, that, that I was not, I could not do everything I wanted to do. I mean, I, you know, there's only so much time. And so in order to really complement what I wanted to do, I have to have to empower my assistant coaches, and not only my assistant coaches, but you know, the student managers, and people that are in your program. First of all, it gives them a feeling that they are, that that program is part of them, too. I think that's so huge for them to have that feeling, Hey, yo, this isn't just code show all this program is it's my program to so you know, I would give our assistant coaches duties like, you know, one one's in charge of our, of our post players was in charge of our guards. And they pretty much had to had the whole handle on substitution patterns for those areas during ballgames, you know, they felt that one of our post players or bigs needed to be ranked, and they were allowed to substitute for them. So it really empowered them to, to be an assistant coach with some, a little bit of leverage and a little bit of learning. That goes on with that. So they took, I think, all the assistants, I had took real pride in the fact that they were a major part of the program.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 08:32
And I think one of the challenges I always find with empowering others, he's learning to let go not be involved in the details. How did you? How did you evolve when it came to that area?
Don Showalter 08:44
That's a great question. You know, first of all, I think the term humility comes into that, knowing that I don't know all the answers. And I'm also learning so I think letting letting go, I think the more I gave them, the better I felt. So we started out, you know, small, here's, here's, here's something that you can do. And I think even, you know, when it comes to mega corporations, I think the people that are CEOs have to let go a little bit of trust the people that are working for him. I mean, that's, that's the big thing, I think is is the trust factor is huge. So if I trust my coaches, I'm gonna give them pretty much the freedom to do what they think is best. And then I have to I have to trust that it's going to work out and and we all we all these discussions, I think we have discussions about it. But and in the end, they know that if I need to change something, I will, but by the same token is I think that trust back and forth between assistants. It's also good because then I think the players have more trust in the coaching staff, than if it's just comes from one person. So Whether you're a CEO or a coach, I think it's the same type of thing that goes into that pattern of letting go and trusting individuals that are working for you.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 10:12
Don, there was 112 month period in the mid 90s. There were you coached the best high school players in America at the basketball Festival, the old American game, and the like hoops Festival. It's that was a pretty intense 12 months. And I'm wondering, when you reflect on that period? How did it elevate your own leadership?
Don Showalter 10:36
You know, at the time, I probably didn't think about it much. But you know, as I as I look back on that, I think, first of all, it elevated my leadership from the standpoint of an organization. I mean, I was really, I really tried to be organized in what I was doing, you know, with, with coaching, high school, average high school players, I would say, we had some college players, but average, not elite players. But then you're coaching elite players in the McDonald's game, you're coaching NBA guys in the McDonald's, and McDonald's and hoop Summit. So I think my organization and confidence really grew, having been able to coach those teams. And really, I tell people, I didn't coach, those elite players any different than I coached my high school team. I mean, to me, to me, players just want to get better. And sometimes you just flat out coach him and, and, you know, you're not going to coach him any different than I think you coach, your high school team. Because essentially, you want them to become better, just like you want your high school team who can better. And then I think that I think that builds a lot of trust in those kids that trust you, as a coach, that you can deliver some things that make them get better help them get better.
Paul Barnett 12:02
I have to ask, as the father of teenagers, you've spent your whole career coaching teenagers, and I'm wondering what you've learned, if anything, about the best way of engaging with them when it comes to having more difficult conversations?
Don Showalter 12:18
Oh, boy. Yeah, you know, I think to two of the pillars that I think really come into play with with coaching and Ally coaching, just, you know, being a parent or being somebody who's around, I think is, is the one pillar is care, you really have to show you care. And I think that allows the people under your direction to, you know, to open up to you, and, and when they know you care, and I think you have some really good conversations about what's going on in their lives. And the second thing as I brought up before, I think, trust, you know, they, you know, teenagers have to trust you to, to do what's best. And when they trust you, they're going to, you know, they're going to open up a little bit and give, give, give their thoughts to you, because they trust you, not only to keep it maybe between you and them, but they also trust your your knowledge and trust you to give them some good advice. So to me, those are the two things before you can give anything. I think you got to develop caring and trust, in order to kind of get them to feel that you really do have what's what it takes to help them.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 13:47
Don, what did you learn from George raveling, about preparing players mentally to compete?
Don Showalter 13:54
You know, Coach traveling was one of the best, I mean, he coached here in Iowa, and that's where I got to know him really well. He is actually endorsed my book, and I've known him and worked with him and Nike and some kampsen throughout but, you know, Coach raveling he had so many great experiences for one thing, I mean, he'll, as a young as young man, he was part of, of some some of the things that went on in our country with the through the with our racial racial items that came up and, and so he was really his. He really has some great thoughts about his experiences and I think just listen to him is was amazing. Second thing that really that I thought was true, tremendous from his damp boys is how many books he read. I mean, he read books after books after books, and he loved to read books and and I, you know, I spent some time with him when he at Iowa, when he just got done reading books, you know, he talked about a book he just read, and you know how great it was that he could filter into that book. And, and so, you know, those are some of the things that I really remember about Coach raveling. The other thing I really remember is, is how much he cared about his players. I mean, that was probably the thing as a young, high school coach, that I remember most I go to watch practices with Coach rambling, and really how much he cared about his players, you can just tell that on the practice court. And as well as off the practice chord, and he still has a very caring attitude. When I when I visit with him, and when he visits with other people. So, to me, those things stand out a great deal.
Paul Barnett 15:51
He's high up on my wish list of tech interview one day, he's Yeah, his stories are quite inspirational. And I think he's very
Don Showalter 15:59
inspirational. Like I said, most of them, most of his stories, Coach railing stories come, you know, come from when he was a young coach or young man and, and, you know, he's dealing with a lot of different things at his, during his when he was growing up and how he handles it was just, it's inspiring, it really is,
Paul Barnett 16:20
well, as he sees Martin Luther King story, but we'll save that for another day. Yeah, Don, being a head coach, it can be an all consuming vocation. In fact, I am starting to form the opinion that it leads to a very unhealthy obsession. But looking back, what have you learned about managing the role so that it doesn't negatively impact your life?
Don Showalter 16:43
Yeah, you know, as young as some that as a young coach, I very telling young coaches that, wow, you know, you, you really need to make sure that it's, it's not coaching is not a 24/7 thing, and you can't let it you can't let it be who you are. Because really, you know, the, the coaching aspect is just what you do. It's not who you are. And sometimes coaches don't understand and when I tell him that, but I think when, when you're, you, we all know this phrase of Be Where Your Feet are. And I think that's, that was a prime example for me as I was a young coach, when I was home, I had to be home. And that's where my attention was with my, with my wife and kids, as they were younger. And you know, during a two hour practice, my feet were in the gym, and I was very much intentional about having the best practice I could. And then usually, you know, after the kids went to bed, I would spend time watching film, or making the next day practice. So you'll see you don't trend on really your family's time with you just be a coach 24/7. [PB6]
And even I coached my son when he was in high school. And one of the rules we had was, you know, when we're at home, are not going to mention anything about practice or a game with my son, unless he brings it up. Now, if he brings it up, then it'll it'll start the conversation. But often what would happen, I'd be watching film of the game, and he would come come to come to my downstairs film room, and we'd watch it together. So, you know, I would never ask him a question down let's watch film or, or try to correct him at home because I couldn't do that to anybody else. And I didn't think it was fair to him. For me to be a coach all the time, he needed to see me as a dad. So great question. And it's something I think that all coaches really struggle with, you know, where does the time come in for, you know, in the higher up level, you go to your, you know, your recruiting and everything else like that high school coach, you don't spend time recruiting, but you certainly spend time with your own team and, and doing team bonding things as well. So I think you really have to be intentional about where you are, and what that time involves.
Paul Barnett 19:20
When it comes to working with elite talent. In the book, you talk about a four C framework that you use to help separate people who are similarly talented. Could you could you tell us about that framework?
Don Showalter 19:34
Yeah, you know, we have what we call the four C's of USA basketball, I think, first one is one of them is is comfort zone. And I think really, players have to get out of their comfort zone. We have to get out of your comfort zone as coaches as individuals, as CEOs of companies. I think if we just stay in a comfort zone, we're not going to continue to learn like we need to or you know, we're not going To be able to, to grow, like we want to as a coach or as a player. So one of my one of our jobs, I think, as coaches is to get players out of their comfort zone, in practice, and that might be a high competition level that might be asking them to do something you're not quite quite ready to do, it might be skill development is that they're not they're lacking. Because anytime you ask a player to do skill development that they're not real good at, it's out of their comfort zone, for instance, players not real good is left hand, there's all and we can, well, I think you spent time on that. But that's a little bit out of his comfort zone, because he doesn't usually do that. So maybe it's maybe it's a 6am practice, maybe it's, you know, maybe it's a time where in a practice session, you you, you stopped practice in the middle of and just say we're done. I mean, it's kind of out of their comfort zone. So there are a lot of ways I think you can get players out of their comfort zone. But I think that's a real huge piece of it. [PB7]
Another C is competition, you got to be able to compete. NBA scouts asked me all the time that really kind of top question they asked me about players when they're evaluating players is what how do they compete, you know, the high level competitors. And we've had some players that are really high level, but are not really great competitors. And they get to the NBA, and they find out soon that they're just not, they're not going to make any NBA lesser, lesser high level competitors. And then you have other kids who get drafted, second round, or don't get drafted, that really make a team because of their high level being competitive. So I think, you know, we as a coach have to get that competition, competitive, juices flowing and practice in order to make them players understand that that's a huge part of them improving and improving your skills, but also then improving our mental toughness. So that's obviously a big one. [PB8]
And then I would say, you know, communication is a great thing. Players have to learn how to communicate. And I always say that, that, you know, 1617 year old first of all, 16, seven year olds, they don't know how to communicate. So so we have to teach it. And one of the things we always end up with the end of practice is our communication circle. And that circle, we always go through and tell people to the right or left, you know, we ask the question, but today's question for the day might be Tila player to your left when he did good practice. So you might say, Hey, you rebound really well. So we're communicating, we're looking at the IOC, you gotta look him in the eye column by their first name. So they have to say, Hey, Johnny, I thought you did a really good job of rebounding today. So they know how to communicate. And part of it is, as coaches, we are always, you know, we're always saying, Hey, you gotta communicate better on the floor gotta communicate, well, maybe you don't know how to communicate. And so we give them that. And then we also tell the best things when the best way to communicate is to communicate early, loud and often. So let's say on defense, you're, you're you see a screen coming, you indicate you call it screen early, before it ever gives there. You say, often, when we say often, we mean three times, you know, hey, screen screen screen reader, you're not just going to black babble off screen screens, like young kids do. And then you're going to, and then you're going to say it often, which is what I just said is three times so early, loud and often are the three main ways to communicate. So now you give the players some Avenue how to communicate on the court. And then you give how to communicate off the court while your communication, sir. [PB9]
So those are some things that we think are really important in educating players on the value of competition. The value of communication, the value of coverage zone, in those in those areas.
Paul Barnett 24:18
In that communication circle, am I right? In the book, you talk about you making them hold hands while you do that as well? Yeah, absolutely. That's quite intimate. Is there any resistance to that?
Don Showalter 24:33
The first day might be but you know, first of all, that's out of their comfort zone. And I know some coaches do and they say, well, instead of holding hands, they have lock elbows, which is maybe a little better way, you know, better way for some people to do it. But you know, after a while, it's just it's automatic. They know what's coming they know. So the resistance comes maybe the first couple of times, and then after they see or doing why there doesn't seem to be much resistance with it. I think the first time they do it, we're kind of looking at each other and going, you know, is this is this for real? That type of thing. But then I think once they, once they go through, and we change questions every day, you know, one day might be just hey, what's your favorite food? Just so they get to know each other? You know, kids don't know each other very much anymore, even though they're playing on the same team. What's your favorite movie? You know? Who's your? Who's your favorite singer? Who's your favorite? What's your favorite car? You know, those kind of things are really important. And then I think what comes out of that, is, players tell other players what they do well, so that creates a role for that player without the coach telling them what the role is. So if I tell you, Hey, you, you're a great rebounder, all of a sudden, you're thinking, You know what, Johnny thinks I'm a really good rebounder. And so I'm going to make that my role. So now we have a role is being developed on your team. And it didn't even come from the coach, it comes from the fellow teammates. So that's just the beauty of that over over a length of time. The toughest question we always ask is, you know, tell us something that nobody would know about you. That is the absolute toughest question, because now they kind of have to bear their soul, they have to trust their teammates. And we always say one thing is that whatever said in that circle stays in that circle. And so we've had, we've had, you know, people tell us that they're, you know, their uncle's in jail, they didn't, they never knew their dad, all those kinds of things are really eye openers and develop a really sense of, you know, he's barely sold to us as a team. And, you know, we need to take it serious. And it really, it really develops I think, is caring and trusting attitude that we're looking for.
Paul Barnett 26:59
That's a great example, and something I hadn't come across before. So thank you for sharing it, Don, but I was looking online, and I found a great seminar that you gave on a coach's DNA, and you identified five core pillars of that DNA. I would would love it if you could share that with the audience.
Don Showalter 27:21
Well, if I can remember Marfan, but I think I can. The five pillars, and I think this is the fact that, you know, we talked about DNA a little bit and what this is, what is me, this is what makes up coaching. I think I referred to it a little bit, a little bit earlier.
And as that goes into teach being a teacher, second thing I would say is be authentic, be who you are. Players can see right through you if you're not authentic. In other words, if you're trying to be somebody or not or you know you, you have an air about you the this isn't really who you are, that that builds no trust and really takes the trust away from the players and the coach. So I think you need to be authentic. If you don't, if you mess up as a coach, I think you need to admit that, hey, you know what, we should not play the man man the whole game, we should want to maybe a little bit itself. And so I think if you own up to a few things, I think as being authentic, then I think the players you know a lot, they could trust you a lot more on that. So I think authentic is really something that coaches that, you know, you can't be Coach K, you can't be j right. You got to be who you are. And without going further into that. This is this is an example of, you know, of coaches getting their own identity, trying to get their own identity with their players. You know, young coaches have really had no identity yet they have to establish an identity with their players and
So, you know that I talked about being organized earlier. And he gets one of the pillars of being a great being, being a good coach is, is your organization I talked about that. also talked about the human humility part to it. A great, a great coach a great saying, Jeff Van Gundy, who's a good friend of mine. He's former NBA coach, and he's now use it on ESPN. But he had a great saying he said, There are two types of coaches, ones that are humble, and ones that will be humbled. He's because basketball will eventually humble everybody. And that's so true. And then I think the last one for me, that I talked about, DNA is being adaptable.
And man coaches have to be adaptable to just so many things, you know, you come to practice and, and you have two kids sick and one and somebody else. So now you're down to nine players. In a practice, you have your perfect practice plan geared for 12 players. So you know, you have to be adaptable, you have to be adaptable outside circumstances. And then I think, game wise, you got to be adaptable to what the other team does. Man, if I want to, you know, I want to I gotta be adaptable, what the other coach does, the other coach throws zone at me, and I don't, I don't get that. And I don't have have a sense of, of that he did that for two or three or four trips down the court. That's i Good, I gotta be adaptable. I gotta be adaptable, quick. So adaptability is something that, I think, really, so. So it goes with five fields, the five pillars that really make it make a coach, great coach, and it has to be developed. I think, as a coach, the longest coach coaches, I think those five things get to be developed as a coach and as a leader, for your team.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 31:56
One thing that's interesting about that list is that it doesn't necessarily touch on the role of mentors. And what comes through in the book is just your drive, to not just meet people, but then connect with them. Maybe it's part of being authentic. There are so many stories where you'll meet someone, you'll send them a handwritten note, they'll write back to you, your former relationship, that relationship will lead to I guess, most famously, you've been chosen to coach America. Yeah. And it's just it seems to define your life. And I wanted to know, you now mentor, so many people as well, you not only in Pinto people in America, you mentor them all over the world. So don't, you know, if you could talk more broadly, about the role that a mentor can make or have in someone's life?
Don Showalter 32:55
You first of all, you raise a good point? I think, and I don't, at the time, I don't I don't I never even considered it.
But I think part of the reason that I was able to make a lot of connections, was because I was authentic. You know, I wasn't trying to be somebody that was out there in left field. And, and as as, you know, just as an afterthought, you know, wrote a note, I mean, I, that's kind of just who I am. And I think being authentic really carried me to a lot of opportunities that I would not otherwise have. And so I think that word authentic, as you mentioned, is really an important piece. [PB11]
And then being a mentor, you know, what really is a mentor, I think a mentor is somebody that as I look back on my mentors, a mentor, just somebody that's available for you to kind of lean on at times that you have, you know, whether you have questions or hard decisions to make, I think mentor is somebody that can help you in situations. And I've had a lot of mentors, that were really you know, starting with Coach Wooden, my dad was a good mentor, obviously, I think that really wore me a lot. You know, I had an uncle, that was a great mentor. And sometimes mentors don't even give you necessarily answers, but they make you form your opinion about things. So you know, coach would never really say when you'd ask him, he would never really say, well, well done. You know, I think you should do this. It was never that part of a being a mentor. He was he would say well done. What do you think about this or how would it affect you if you did pursue this? So he he mentors I think really makes you think Think about your own situation, as opposed to just telling you giving you what to do. And if that makes sense, I think, I think that's why I try to do now. I mean, I get, you know, emails cast and emails and phone calls, from coaches who, you know, whether Hey, can you send me your, your man to man offense? Or, you know, I'm, I'm searching, I'm looking for a job, I'm applying for a job. And here's the situation, you know, what do you think, and again, I try and how I was mentored was, don't tell them what to do, but to lay out the facts for them, and then they have to make their own decision. So I enjoy that, that piece of it. I mean, and people still, I've still, I still look for mentors in my life, even even after coaching 42 years of high school basketball, and with USA Basketball. So I think we never really stopped searching for good mentors in our lives. I think that's something that we we constantly are, you know, drawn to, you know, and I don't think, you know, to me, usually, you look as a mentor to somebody older and wiser lot, sometimes mentors, or can be younger people that have a little better sense of, maybe a situation that they've been through. So, you know, mentors, or are somebody I think we all have to have a mentor, if not two or three that we can, that we can bounce things off of and lean on.[PB12]
Paul Barnett 36:46
When you've had such a great career. 42 years, as you just said, I know that you're not coaching anymore, but you definitely are still mentoring as you as you suggested in that last answer. But I'd like to finish just by asking you about the legacy that you hope you've left so far, with the many, many peoples who you've connected with?
Don Showalter 37:07
Yeah, well, you know, you really, what is a legacy? That, you know, I think, definition of that is probably important, before you try and come up with what your legacy is. But, you know, I guess a legacy, my legacy, is just how people remember you. You know, I want people to remember me, as somebody who, first of all was very passionate and enthusiastic about, about the game of basketball. And I think it's the first legacy that I will leave. Secondly, I think I would like to have people remember me as somebody who was, who was a family man who really, really was, took his family, you know, I took my family with me to camps and California, we, we, we loaded up our, our van at that time, and through things in the back, and we were off on the road on a road trip. And, you know, fortunately, my wife, and kids really enjoyed the added aspect. I think it was really good for our family. So I think that's a piece of a legacy that we all leave. [PB13]
That, I think what struck me and Pete wrote the book, and cut me off here from going going too far away. But what what struck me most about the book, when that peep when he, when he had a lot of interviews, is things that former players, were telling him that I really had forgotten that I had, you know, all Yeah, I remember that now, after I read it. But it's interesting, because they don't remember the same things you remember. And, and, and obviously, you read the book, but very few of those players. I mean, they talk about games, but a lot of it was things that didn't have anything to do with winning or losing, you know, which was, which really tells me a lot. I think of building a legacy, you know, they're, they're gonna, they're gonna, I'm sure they're gonna remember some wins and losses, but they're gonna remember more about, you know, what, what coach was like, you know, what did he What are some things that, that they go back to and refer to that I had said, I think that struck me the most about the book. So I think that's, that's a piece of leaving a legacy as well. And that's a long answer to probably short questions.
Paul Barnett 39:39
Now, it's a difficult, difficult question. And I we interviewed Mike Dunlap recently who I know, you know, yeah. And, Mike, I think and you share a very special skill and that's the ability to teach and not only teach elite players but teach at all levels of society, and I think it's a very special skill. And I'm starting to form the opinion that it's actually teaching. That is the foundation for leaving any kind of legacy. But
Don Showalter 40:06
Mike is one of my best friends in the he certainly is a basketball. You know, he's a basketball junkie. He's passionate, He's enthusiastic. He's been at all levels, too. So he and I share many, many of the same ideas about teaching and how to get across to players.
Paul Barnett 40:25
Dawn, it's been great chatting with you today. It's been lovely for me reading the book and learning a little bit more about about your journey and and just how broad it's been. I thank you for today. And I wish you all the best for the books, climb up the charts. I know that it's out now and I'll put a link to it in the show notes.
Don Showalter 40:43
Good. Yeah. I know. It's the pre the pre sales was pretty good. So I think it'll, it's interesting to a lot of different types of people. So yeah, I appreciate your efforts. And gosh, being on your podcast means a lot to me. So, appreciate that. Thank you, Don. Thank you.