Ep32_PeterMoores_Edit1
Fri, 2/5 1:30PM • 42:29
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, player, people, coaching, bit, started, good, job, strengths, watch, team, england, moment, rhythm, culture, play, home, point, suddenly, game
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Peter Moore's Good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
00:04
Great to be here.
Paul Barnett 00:05
Can I just ask a really simple question, Where are you in the world today? And what have you been up to?
00:11
So I'm at the moment in a place called Oba Broughton, which is about 20 minutes drive from Nottingham. And my day has been at Trent bridge, really at the county ground, we're still training. So we have a winter program, we should run and face the way the winter program runs, we have about 14 or 15 pros in that moment. It's like an individual program in a sort of squat environment. Because the winters for us if you haven't gone away with a franchise or with an England team, it's your chance to grow as a player to improve as a player. So you're trying to identify with the players what they got to do. And then we work away. So we started off this morning on the artificial outside at lady Bay and minus one very cold doing a bit of running and fielding with softballs, obviously. But Jake, just nice to be outside, you know, the lads Come inside, and then start doing their individual skill work and stuff like that. So that program runs mainly Monday to Friday, various intensities as we go through, and then yeah, and then got back probably about four o'clock to have a quick change up and ready for the podcast.
Paul Barnett 01:12
Thank you very much for finding some time to come and talk to us. I just want to flag up front. I am an Australian. But I was born in England. That said I don't want to talk about any Test matches that happened at Trent bridge. So if we can just leave that quite good. Peter, actually, I wanted to start with a question around, you've had such a long career and you've traveled all over the world. And we will get into into that as we move along. But you've had this wonderful exposure to coaches in many different continents with many different teams, and yourself as a player. And I'd like to just start with a really broad question, which is, what is it you think the great coaches do differently?
01:47
I think the first thing as a great coach has is this ability to see somebody for what they could be rather than what they are. We do it naturally as parents. So we look at kids, you see a five, six year old, and you can imagine them being something great from an astronaut to a footballer to a ballet dancer, it doesn't matter. You can imagine easily and so convey as kids kids. The big challenge, I think, for great coaches, or any anybody working with people really is can you keep those dreams alive and held them. [PB1] Anybody kills a dream, it should be the person whose dream is they move their dream somewhere else. But somebody without a dream, without a vision without something to go for. It's a shame. And I do think that certain the Western world, we're very good at killing durations, we're really good at telling people to, to not go for this and play safe and do that. I think coaching is about it's a shared journey. It's about often you can see what somebody could be before they can. And when they suddenly see what you're seeing, because you do some work and they start to improve a bit. Suddenly, Wow, now it's not worth it's just great fun, because the excitement now of moving to somewhere else. And it's so worth letting that brilliant out. So as I say, I think the great coach has this ability to look inside somebody and think Yes, come on, it's in there. Let's help you get it out rather the other way around and saying, well, I've got all the expertise, I'm going to try and shove it into to make me great. It's the other way around.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 03:10
He said something so interesting thing about keeping people's dreams alive. Maybe if I could follow up and ask you, is it possible as a coach to get someone to drink? What does that need to be tonight?
03:21
Well, I think as a coach, you always get excited when someone's got a clear picture of what they want to be already, if you meet or your man or your woman, if they've got a vision of the sort of performer they want to be that I think makes it really clear for them and to what they've got to work out together. And you can help them on that journey. I think for some people, you need to help them a little bit. You can't give somebody a dream that's got to be there as they've got real enthusiasm. But sometimes people hide them a little bit because they think maybe I'm not good enough. We've got this thing called doubt that sits in is all the time and you're trying to free people up. So the first thing you have to do, I think you have to do as a coach is you create an environment where it's okay to mess up. It's okay to fail. Because if we go to the academics, the only way to learn is to make mistakes. So the first job I have as a coach is if I go some ways can we create an environment where basically, it feels safe, very similar to your family feel safe, you're loved by your family, so you can be challenged by family, because they know they're doing the best intentions when you can debate what's the right thing to do? That, to me is where people start to realize those dreams. Actually, I thought we could be good. But actually now I'm starting to realize that could be really good. And now this dream is starting to grow. [PB3] Could I Oh yeah, I think I could. And you're there to just you got to keep your feet on the ground to a certain degree. there's work to be done. But it's not to squash it. Because I watched a lot of players of my time and nobody really knows where players gonna go to. They really don't because it goes through these jumps. Learning is not a linear process. It's a nonlinear process so it doesn't go in a straight line. It goes all jagged up and down and suddenly you have a slump you know quite sure. And if you stick with it, the county's job then is to stand by and be enthusiastic, keep moving. And then suddenly, we go again. And that to me becomes so exciting watching somebody go through that process. Because if it was just straightforward, everybody would do it. It's not learning and growing and moving. It comes through experiences and coaches try and provide those experiences along with all the other things that help accelerate.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 05:26
Peter, I've got this quote from you, I'd like to play back to you at this point. Yeah. Coaches by nature carers with a critical eye, which is a bad combination. Why do you think this?
05:37
Well, it's not a bad combination, if you get it, right. So caring and critiquing somebody, you want them to get better, you see the fault, and you find yourself if you're not careful, forever talking about what's wrong, not what's right. So you focus on weaknesses rather than strengths? Well, again, you come to the great coaching for me, you have to help people identify, to become a really good player, you're going to have identified your point of difference the area where you can maximize, so all professional or elite. Sport is normally based on how well you play, but also how badly you make somebody else playing off, you make somebody playing worse, because they see how good you are at something, now pull you out or something. So the culture should reflect that. So it's sort of a bit of a buzzword in coaching now they call it super strength or whatever. For me, I've always looked at it really that you have to spot a weakness and help the player recognize if that weakness is at a point where it's below a threshold, so it's going to be exposed or make them fail, then there has to be improved to the point where you can't see it anymore.[PB5] And then you're really going to go back on those strengths. Because most sports have got a technique and a method. That makes sense. So my technique might be how I swing the bat as a batter, my methods how I apply it. That makes sense. So the key here is the method should show off your strengths and hide your weaknesses. So anybody watches cricket, Alistair Cooke brilliant player with a fantastic method. So he's a very strong lead side player. So if he sticks to his method, he leaves really well outside of stone, make the ball the ball straight, hits him in the leg side, it goes to his strengths, if he just focus on his weakness, and he could spend all this time trying to become a better color driver and offside player and just focus on his weakness. And then his whole game starts trying to base about cover driving and not going through strength. So he plays it balls he didn't need to. And they never bothered his strength, which is the legs. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. So you're always helping a player? How do I apply what I've got? It happens in business the same? If you're a fantastic, making something is only as good as your process is to help people want to buy it and see what it is. Sport is no different to that you'll have something so I've got real pace as a bowler, how do I apply that the best possible way, often it will be to be open, we follow the length rather than show off because people will sit back because of my face. And trying to help people understand that that's method. A lot of cultures just coach technique and don't coach method. I think coaching method talking to players about how they apply their strengths is a great thing. And going back to your question, the danger of the slightly over critical coach, the analytical coach, he sees nearly too many falls. And you really have to balance that. So when I first started coaching, the video was a fantastic tool. But it's also potentially quite a dangerous tool because we all don't look perfect on video, because it's a fluid motion. So you have to balance those out as a culture when you expose people to areas of weakness and strengths because you're you're dealing with the whole belief, the belief balance as well with that player, the self belief because there's a point when for a player, too much critical appraisal actually starts to take away some of that belief. And that's a really fine balance.
Paul Barnett 08:58
Peter, where'd this come from? This philosophy of focusing more on the strengths and trying to develop those method over over technique. Where did that come from?
09:08
I think for me, it came from I as a player played for a long time. I love playing but like all players do we all suffer what I call doubt, doubt worry. And you bet a different point your career. So I've my first real sort of dealing with it was when I got released or by Worcester. I was it was still got released, went away to Zimbabwe. And I've certainly been let go by account. I didn't know who's going to get a job. Eventually I got signed by associates while I was away, which is great. And then had a career that I didn't know that and suddenly somebody say well, we don't think you're good enough to have a contract here. And then the doubt and what I what I didn't know at the time, but as I started coaching and working with people, and I've coached quite a lot of players, the winters, you look at people and I started to understand that what doubt, doubt doesn't need anything to grow. It grows all by itself. But belief needs help. And belief is the thing that fights down is the enemy of It self belief. So I started to think as a coach, when I started to work out, the job of the Coach is to help the player build self belief. Because without self belief, you can't play if you don't think you can, you can't full stop. It's like a Ferrari without petrol is a great looking car didn't go anywhere, stuck. So how does a player build belief? Well, the only way to build belief, if I look it up is performance accomplishment, I have to do it, I can't talk about it, I have to do it. So then I'm thinking as a coach, my job as coach is to create situations where they can do it. And if they do it and do it, well failed to start getting better and better, they'll then believe they can. [PB6] So if I would have been at the top of stumping cricket, for instance, if you do 24, ball challenge, you know, 24 balls at the top of stone, if I get 12, then I get a 50%. Fine. If I do it for the next four months, and I got that up to 20, out of 24. And I'm still starting getting up to 85%. When I go and play the game, I'm going to believe back go top of awesome. That's practice as a focus, it's linked to the game is challenging. It's fun, it's competitive. But actually what it does is it builds belief, and the key then is when the player doesn't do so well, maybe to start with the coach just support. We're not judgmental here. The coach doesn't need to be the judge in all this. Really, the game does that all for us. The game is the judge. If you get wickets and runs, you're a good bloke gravity. You're a good player. If you don't you need to adjust. And that to me is if coaching goes wrong for me. People want to be judging Jordan, the player, the sport you play, we'll do that. You're striking your score goals. You're doing something right.
Paul Barnett 11:38
You transitioned into coaching quickly, after retiring. In your third year as a coach, you were successful in winning the Second Division. Two years later, you win the First Division title Sussex first championship in their 164 year history. What did you put in place when you first became coach that fueled that result?
11:59
Well, that when you first start anything, I had bags of enthusiasm and drive. I've coached quite a lot outside of being a player and I became a bit lonely. I was kept in 97 they made me play Coach 98. After about six weeks, we played a game called castle actually. And I let I was keyed by that to four days to mark Robinson who eventually went on to become a coach and coach after me. And I knew why I missed him because I was watching his action because I was coaching in the game. And I got home that night and thought I'm going to end up doing both jobs averaging here. This is wrong. So we don't Chris tannins is kept in a bed. My bed and criminologist are overseas. So we now have more experience on the field. So I thought, well, that's Yeah, I'm gonna pack in. So the other night, Okay, next day, right? I'm going to retire I'm going to coach. So that was where that came from. And basically, at the time, I made so many mistakes, but we're a young team and they were making mistakes. We're all making mistakes together if I'm honest, and we were winging it a bit, uh, me and Chris got on. Well, not straightaway We are, we are ructions to find out. But we came to a pretty clear agreement, my role was prepared a team whose job is to lead the team on the field. And then we'd have moments when he would be better than I would in times when I could do things different. And so we started to get a nice system. And we started with young players coming through and we wanted to build I always had the vision with Chris, I think we had to build this culture that was going to be fun. We had a moment if I'm honest, the year before we won, we were the Second Division. I think the year before that, we finished bottom of the Second Division, getting beaten by an innings by Gloucester at home. And I had to present the award so the lads are whether these strategies and season and I was on the committee balcony and there must have been 250 fans very cheesed off, most people have gone. And I'm with a microphone, I'm having to go through this sort of torturous process of going. And the Battle of the year is x and the bowl of the year is why and the Player of the Year is, and we had a terrible end to the season, we did pretty well halfway through and we suddenly train Smash. After that we weren't in the dressing room. It was the end of the season. So we all had a few drinks and every sat there. And something really special happened for me in that we sort of made a promise to each other that we weren't going to play to win a trophy The following year, we're gonna play to win respect, respect of our fellow pros, and of each other and how we went about it and how we worked. And that, to me became one of those moments whereby suddenly, we started to do better because the winter was fueled around. Don't think about the outcome. Let's just work to improve[PB7] . And that really started to build my thoughts on coaching and development because we started to get better. And we started to eat we were less distracted. The modern phrase of staying there now we were in the present we were just doing it enjoyed it and then we started to win. And we didn't start adopting last season, absolutely out of blocks. But as we would have gained we gained some confidence we will work as anyway because we got used to working through the winter and we improved and by time we will know Second Division we had a we had a way of going about it and then that's starting to build and then like most things to become a great side you need great players we don't pick like James curtly who would really start to fly. And we say Mr. Karma, Muskoka was bit like signing Harry Kane. Rather than a one or door, somebody popped up and scored a goal the last five minutes and that was machine, we started winning games. And we got over the line. So brilliant fun, because it was a really a shared experience between everybody, lots of input from coaches, players, admin staff, every got stuck in really tight club. And that built a culture that then went on and won more trophies, which is great to say.
Paul Barnett 15:38
What's interesting about your story, Peter, is that lightning strikes twice, because in 2009, you let go from England job. And you went back to coach Lancashire straightaway, no break straight into it. And in 2011, he led them to their first championship in 77 years. And I imagine that must have given you a lot of satisfaction to know that you could come back as a coach and the methods and the tools that you have were working. But was there anything that changed in your philosophy or style, after the England job when you went in to Lancashire?
16:12
Yeah, that was actually in the basement, I come into the England job. And in the first time in England, I push too hard. If I'm honest, I constraint our associates youngest team, we matured into a better team and we grown together. And then my standard of coach wasn't flexible enough, if I'm honest. So the younger players loved it, because they were all pushing or whatever. But some of the older players, they needed more time, they need more input, and I wasn't giving him enough. And so that really made dib build stronger relationships. And that's what affected that. So when I came out of that job, I'd learned already, by the time it happened, just sort of learned. And it's frustrating, because I don't really learn in the job, really, and you want it a bit more time to start to implement that. But when I came out, I got to Lancashire, when it first came out, you get bruised and battered when you come out of a job course you do. And then I've gone through the interview of it and going through the interview process, but very excited about the job, the challenges it held, and then got in there and sort of made a promise to myself a little bit that I wasn't I was going to let it just happen. So where my style, if I've gone into probably the England job, I might have a meeting and say, right, this is how we're going to go about it. What I did, by the time I got to lunch, I wanted to create the need for a meeting by basically speaking to everybody find out what was going on. And suggesting in conversation, things that I thought that might be really great. Because somebody told me once if you want something to happen to a lot of people, so I told a lot of people wouldn't be great. We just had a great time, we all worked hard, we got stuck in and we started doing these things. And over the course of about three to four weeks, people were coming back to me and say, I think we should just all get stuck in and work hard. And it was sort of coming back to me. By that point. I could then say right, I think we should have a meeting about this. What do you think, by the time we have the meeting, I can then go, john, Dave and Steve have got a few things they want to tell you about. They've got some thoughts about something by then their guide, lads, I think we've got to do this, this and this, we can't have any negative speed, we've got to speak a bit more about this, we've got to do that. What do we think? Then the group decide, yeah, let's give it a crack. And off we go. So I'm not telling you more, it's sort of draws the other way around. And it's a bit more organic, it's more fun. It's more in tune with building on something that's already there, rather than trying to bring in your regime. And that fitted me and my style. And so it's something again, you sort of learn as you go along. But that's, it's a quick one, it's quicker to you make less enemies doing it. So less people pulling you back. And three, I think you're more likely to get the decisions, right? Because you're getting a really good picture about what is in place at the moment.
Paul Barnett 18:50
That's a great story. I think I'll pinch that one actually, when I set up my next team. When you first started coaching, I've read articles, and I've heard it a couple of years where you talked about being on a mission to try and collect everyone's problems. But as you got further along, you'll learn to switch off at the end of the day. And I'd like to ask you, do you have any tips or ideas for other coaches or even people that are listening on finding that balance and learning to switch off?
19:15
Well, I think I'd go fairly brutal on in some ways. In some ways, when you first start code at first sight coaching, you're really looking for problems so you can help out and fix them. You think that's your job to be the sort of answer to everybody's challenge. Over time, I learned a really important lesson I think about if you take somebody's problem from them, first, you know you've robbed them with a chance to solve it to they expect you to solve it. If you don't, then they blame you for it. And thirdly, if you do solve it and tell them the answer, and it doesn't work for them, they blame you again. So it just doesn't work. It just fundamentally doesn't work. So now, I would firstly if somebody can't I don't know if they if they're struggling around bone strength for instance. They're going to be what do I think they should do? I said, Well, the first point is, you have a challenge. Because unless you can get past this one, then I don't think you're going to advance to where you want to be in the game. So you've got to, you've got to be able to either increase pace, or spin it more or defend better and awesome, whatever that thing is. So it's your challenge, I'll be here to help you with it. I work all day with you don't you live, we'll talk it through, you have to work that out. Because realistically, you can't have two systems in your head when you do anything, you can only have your own system.[PB8] So if it's a player, I say the best way to play the ball moving around have something to do this, this and this, and they try to do that. Even if it's right. If it doesn't work straight away, they'll ditch it and blame me for the wrong information. Whereas I can give them options. They have to choose to try them out. And then they have to decide whether they can put it in their game. So one, I wouldn't take on anybody's problem. That means when I go home, the second thing I have to do is be present Wherever I am, because probably Tom and Natalie would have been my two kids would have been probably about six and nine. So that that would have I'd have to remember calling back coaches. So six, sitting in the chair, and my wife Karen said to me, you might as well have been looking straight through me. I said, No, no, no. He said no. And she used James Kirk. Yes. He said, Well, if you change currently, you'd have a conversation with him. All around your head is cricket, cricket, cricket, cricket for free. And she was right. So I thought, well, she's got a good point. So I've got to learn to get rid of that. So then I started to go on a bit of a mission, I was going to do it car journey home, get it out of my system. So when I come back, I could be in the room so and over time I've heard different people explain it a different way. The best way I've heard it explained in some ways is to use the framing in the room, a guy called Nigel Reznor, who was on a UK sporting, so I was the listener to him presenting. And he talked about the power of engagement, of being involved in something. And he told his story was really he made a fortune in the city was it was a tennis player who got to junior Wimbledon, and about 21 decided wasn't good enough and decided to commit, and then went to work in the city, worked for a company eventually set his own business or made a fortune by 32. Then by 34, I lost a lot in the crash, went home to his mom to tears and basically got drunk. And then he rented out this moment when he realized how he made his fortune went back in the city with folders made. So I told him how he did it. And basically said, let's go do it. And they made another fortune, he still got the fortune now and goes around the world speaking to people about how he made it lost it and what he did. And so if you're listening to him, you're getting quite excited now because you're thinking, aha, he's gonna give you the key to make fortune, which is, you know, decent thing on anybody's radar. And then he says what the key is to be in the room. And you sort of go, right, okay. He said, No, you don't get it in the room. And he said in the room, it means you're totally engaged with whatever you're doing. So he said at the moment in the room, now, you're not thinking about emails, you've got to send, you're not thinking about the traffic on the way home, you're not thinking about speaking to your cinema. You and me, I just connected. That's it. He said, I'm presenting I'm totally in the room. I mean, I'm giving you my heart and soul now, I'll give you that for the next hour. And then if I go home, you have to go put yourself in that room. And he said, If you don't believe me, he said, go home tonight. And when you go and see your kids, give them an hour, no phones, no nothing and just listen, be totally attentive to everything they want, and just be there for them. He said, you'll be absolutely amazed. So I got home with Natalie sat down there for an hour talking to her. She'd have been 14 or something like that 15 minutes. And she started telling me stuff that I'd never heard before about stuff at school have made where things were, I want to after and I was amazed enough that she's still talking about that conversation two or three years later, I thought, wow. And the way the world's get to the mall with phones and everything, we always tend to be doing three or four different things at the same time. So half of culture, to me is being totally immersed in where you are. So if I'm in a net, if I see coaches on the phone, and then now I'm thinking, you do it, how can you be in two places at the same time, you cannot do it texting, you can't do it. Give yourself to something at the end of it. Give yourself somewhere else. So that helped me really in home life because at work today I am fully fully on game a car, and I'm coming home that I'm going to be fully on here. Then I'm going to go and watch a film I'm fully in my film, or whatever it is because it's sort of helped me because I am like a lot of people are who enjoy something. We get a bit obsessed about it at the time. And that's real, and often it helps success. But there has to be a cost which for this sort of this life balance thing and at times it's really busy so I know I'll be on all the time and Karen understand So we're getting towards the end of the tournament, it's full on, then I think every accepts that it's going to be really busy. But you're trying to catch that up maybe a time to answer busy trying to get this given take a little bit of life, that seems fair.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 25:14
I wonder if if this connects to this idea of relaxed efficiency, which you talk about in technique. And you've also said, it must be very hard to have relaxed efficiency when the cameras on you and everybody's watching. I'm wondering, how do you coach players to actually reach that optimum state where they're in the room, they're relaxed, and they're reacting to what's in front of them?
25:36
Well, you try and help them the playoffs do I mean, think, if sport is an art form, really, you know, it's a mind body spirit thing. Because of that it has a rhythm. And each person's rhythm will be slightly different, we can have three people singing the same song, each, we're seeing it slightly differently, as we one version, we go, Wow. I know, because it's connected to that person. And it's the emotion of them nearly coming out to that song. Well, sport is not that different. So flow, whatever flow is undefinable. And that's that moment where you're just doing it. And to do that, you have to help the player get lost in what he's doing a little bit. So he's just doing it. And there is processes to help that there's no doubt about that. And it's knowing what the goals are. So I mean, like you, there's a great line by ballet dancers, I think they call it the goal is to not see the effort behind the movement, it's a lovely line, very difficult to do. And that is really, because you're in rhythm, you're in rhythm for you. And so a lot of rhythm comes from being relaxed, smiling, being happy, being comfortable environment helps you be relaxed. [PB10] So take coaching, for instance, yeah, one of the classic ones, for me is a trial, you know, you watch, let's come for a trial. And that being the first key, you've got to do a trial, I think, if you get any kids involved, is spend some time getting them relaxed, because they're all gonna make mistakes all over the place until they're relaxed, you can't coach anybody until you feel like you've gotten somewhere where you're actually seeing them, not them trying to be the version they think you might like. You want them to just be that warts and all, because that's fine. So that to me, becomes the environment, the environment helps you do that. And then lower expectations, sometimes, you know, you know, you can help people, if I want to ramp it up on somebody, I would say something along the lines of Evan COVID, a 15 year old, for instance, or a 12 year old, I might say, Well, I'm gonna make it really difficult, I'm sorry, I expect you to do really well at this, because I think that could apply. And that's really going to cause a lot of pressure. Because if he doesn't, then I'm saying he's not gonna want to take it all off and help him get to flow. I'm going to say something along the lines of Listen, I'm going to give you something to do that. I wouldn't really expect an 18 year old to do, but I'm giving it to you as a 12 year old just for a bit of fun, you'll never be able to do it. It'd be impossible, but I would go see what he did better for the fight side going on Xbox level 28, you're going to get blown up all the time and just see what and sometimes you go, Wow, because they take it off themselves. And they go, and then they actually suddenly see what's inside them and they start seeing what you're seeing. And again, I say I go back to that first thing. Can you help them see what maybe you see, which is a better version? And suddenly, wow, we're moving?
Paul Barnett 28:18
We'll go. I wonder if this idea of have a bash, see what happens isn't your philosophy for life because your story, there's a theme in your story, which it's I don't know where the resilience is the right word, but it's just bouncing back over 800 dismissals in your career, the only coach to ever lead to two separate counties to the championship. And you coached England twice on two separate occasions. So it seems like you're not afraid to just have a bash and see what happens. I guess the question is this whole idea of resilience having a bash? How do you What tips do you have for other people on embracing that as an idea and not getting caught up in the fear of failure or safety, self doubt?
29:00
I think for me what culture wise, I made a promise to myself at the start coaching on the very first job that I was going to be true to myself, really. And that was because I loved it. And I sort of decided in my head that and I remember saying to Karen about it and saying well, would you be happy if I coached in school? And the kids went to school? Sure. Yeah, of course. We have a good life No problem. So that I sort of said Well, okay, because I'm going to do it my way but you might not be good at it. So I'm I get sacked. And if I do then we'll, we'll I think I always get a job. Because Hey, I can coach whatever. So again, it's sort of lower expectation. I felt I could be a really good coach. But okay, that's my that's my safety valve. So I'm not going to try and hold on to a job. I'm not going to try and hold my job. I want to keep my job I want to grow but I'm going to try and help people get better. So when I first started coaching, it was really difficult to do so I reckon. My mistake with England and the first time was I was trying to prove a point that I could coach and now gets in the way. I think now I try and help other people prove their point. And through that vehicle, then Viper to win. [PB11] So you know the moment at the moment I've run it not. So when in one day stuff, we've got a good one day team, part of that role is that you transit, you create opportunities for coach to let people go out and play. If they play really well, and you have a little bit of luck at the right times, then you can get over the line, you've got to be in and around it all the time to get there. And that to me is that's probably where I do, I've always wanted to have a go at stuff, if I'm honest, the resilience thing is, you have your moments. The second time I got sacked by England was the hardest one for me, by a long way. Because it was such a short space of time, and I was a good coach. And it felt unfair at the time. I was trying to get over that. And then my eureka moment for me was when I was sat on the decking in the garden, drinking a bottle of vodka, feeling sorry for myself, and I had my moment when I thought, basically, what am I doing? The game doesn't owe me anything doesn't owe me anything at all. I've been in it since I was well, since I was eight. But the program since it was 18. I've played it's maybe a living, my wife or kids, my son loves playing coach team there, what am I doing, just get on with it, get on with it. And that really was my, I think from that moment on. That whole idea was I don't want to be a victim of anything really, I just want to go out and be you can't always do that you try. But doubt is real, or we all fight at times, you do tricks in your head as best you can to get at them and be the best you can.
Paul Barnett 31:41
You've had your fair share of dealing with conflict along the way certain English player was particularly difficult. Don't think I need to give the person's name any more airtime than they already get based on your experience in dealing with conflict on on the field as a player and then in the changing room. What advice do you have for others on surfacing it and dealing with it?
32:04
Well, my style now and I think it's been for a while now really would be. You don't want to tackle it often there. And then because there's emotion often involved. The biggest mistake I think people make is saying, I'll wait for the right time. Because the right time never comes. So if I see something that I don't like in a dress room, and it's normally based on certain principles, so it might be based around if somebody is taking somebody else's belief away because there may be there's two sorts of banter that God addressing and for me, there's there's what I would say funny banter, and cruel banter. Cruel banter attacks the person. If I had something like that, and I didn't like it, then I would go to the person and say, whoever it is and say there's any chance we can get a coffee tomorrow morning, nine o'clock before training. And they might say What's it about? I said, Listen, doesn't matter. Let's just grab a coffee menu, nine o'clock, I just want to talk to you about something. They think go home, they know something's coming. I know I can't get out of it. There's enough time then that emotions Don't go. So then we can sit down. And then at that point, I can say listen, yesterday, this happened. I really don't think I don't if you realize you were doing it. I don't think it's the best thing for our dressing room. I don't think it's helping whoever I don't think it's really part of you. I don't think it's something you want to be doing. What do you think? And then you have the chat. Now, they could turn around and say, Well, I think you're talking rubbish. But at the mall, there's no emotion in it. But often people do things don't quite realize it doing it sometimes. And there's an education bit or there's just a realization, oh, Crikey. And then you can then say, Well, okay, are you happy? You try and do if I see you doing it again? Are you happy for me to mention it to you? Yes. Okay, well, then you've sort of got a deal, the person who goes and tries to find his own way, because you don't want to stop mistaking and stuff like that, really, because it's part of the fun of the game. [PB12] But you also want to balance out. And that becomes, that'd be how I do it. I think one of the dangers of culture now is becoming too bland, where culture is basically, they can only ask a question, and what do you think there is times as a coach, when you think that isn't good enough? It's sloppy. And then you make your decision on when you're going to say and not say, but you've got to be true to yourself, and fair. Otherwise, as a coach, you're not probably interested enough for a player, the players often you get, especially when you go up the ladder. They're sharp, they're good that the sharp minds, they're ambitious, often, they want to move things forward, and they want to make their own decisions. And I think you've got to try and create opportunities for them to do it.
Paul Barnett 34:37
Sorry, great quote. It's a recent one from you, actually, Peter, and I'd like to just read it if I can, because it's a big curly. I enjoy watching teams and how they perform. They've got a heart that beats and you need it to be at the right rate. So I wanted to ask you just a broad question. Are there any teams in any sport that you've watched recently, that are a really good example of this heart beating at the right rate? Yeah, that's
35:01
a good question. I mean, I think Liverpool Football Team certainly Lassie, when they're in that role, the confidence and the speed and the physicality and the way they connected was great to watch. It was unbelievable to watch a team connected for Juergen Klopp, I don't know him I love actually listening to watching code, because he seems an unbelievable connector connects with people, and you get insights into things you don't quite know. But you, you watch growth in people, you know, the younger players, they've signed from different clubs, who talented and he sees in them what they could be. And suddenly you've got players or two fullbacks that growing so fast, and they're becoming brilliant players. And I think when I said you know, there's a rhythm so feelings are great to watch when asides feeling blue. It's like a heartbeat, you can see it squeezing now. It goes in and out as it as a rhythm. And I'm finding that rhythm for a team, the captain helps a lot, I think, in cricket terms, because certain longer former, but it's a shared thing, you know, people start to really enjoy competing, they accept each other for what they are. They don't have to be great mates as much. But they know there's a connection, there's a connection to what they're going for, and that it comes out in, in sort of like it's like a team flow. And it's exciting because people stop being brave, they look for brave things to do. [PB13] If you go to a cricket terms, two ways of batting, looking to score runs or looking to not get around, looking to score runs, you'll you can go and smash the world looking to not get out, you're sort of doomed to failure. Two ways of bowling looking to take wickets looking to not go for runs different mentality one gives you a lot. The other one doesn't give you anything fielding I'm looking to roll to the outtake the catch. I'm looking to not make a mistake. When teams are in flow moving. Everybody's looking for the positive. What can I do? How can I get in there not worried about wafaa Cup this or whatever making mistake. And that to me is beautiful to watch wherever the sport basketball, you know, I mean, we all watched the last dance was a brilliant documentary. Yes, it would have had a it would be through more one person side of it maybe. But still twice the evolution of that team. Going from how they learned the different lessons to becoming more physical to whatever to grow two people a great team was was fascinating.
Paul Barnett 37:25
Peter, you're a great student of the game you always taught in all your interviews, you talk about learning and wanting to find new ways of doing things better. Probably just a general question. We've had this great opportunity recently to be home more and had the chance to learn. Was there anything that piqued your interest recently that you could share with us that you found particularly useful?
37:45
Well, I mean, I think the first lockdown we had when you're at home, I think from a big one from your personal point of view was for me and Karen. We had no kids and we were together after having so much going on. So for us too. As a couple It was fantastic. We had a great time, I garden for the first time properly, I took my first flowerbed. But generally, I think for a lot of things for me, you start to explore things differently and look at things differently. podcasts are unbelievable things to gain information from. So I always say I don't think you actually need to always find something new. I didn't buy a bike riding other things. But a lot of it is you look at different ways about going around things you enjoy, naturally. Can you look at something differently? You know, that whole idea of approaching again, so I coach changing the lens if you look at something, so I could walk into a training session, and I could look at technique, which is a very common thing that coaches do. I could say to a coach, why don't you put on Yeah, who's enjoying it lenses? And just look who's smiling. He's having a good time. And if somebody's not, there's a challenge there. What are you going to do to help you could put on who's in rhythm. And if you're not in rhythm, there'll be stiff and what if the rhythm relaxed and smiling. You can change whatever you want in these classes. That to me is where I would have learned over time to sometimes even before I do something, okay, try and see from a different perspective to get a different set of information that what I say. And that I think has been really valuable to me as a coach because if you go to a player when you see something slightly different so they're not enjoying it, you go to anybody and say listen, I was just thinking about you just watching. Looks like you're not reading the great time Is everything okay? often they'll tell you something, and it might be really simple for you to fix. It can be I get worried because I'm late because my mum can't pick me up till this time to get me there. Well, don't worry about it will tell me that's what happens. It's still fine. So you can start to move that's fine. Stop, you know, was at Lancashire at one player who always was on the edge of it and we were getting frustrated with him. And eventually I said to him, listen, what's what's happened. He said, Well, my wife works nights. So she sometimes works late. We've got your baby. I can't get out till date if I catch the traffic So I've gone to the groom, listen, this is the situation. There's only been mine if he's a little bit late sometimes because his wife has to work late. No, not at all. No one had a problem with it, then his understanding about it. And the problem, it hasn't just gone away what it's done, it's basically created a situation where we're saying, You're okay to be different. Your situation is different to mine. 18 year old to a 35 year old, completely, one's got two kids one's got none. So the only fair way is to treat every differently, though there has to be treated fairly. So if I try and treat everybody the same, I'm not being fair. So that to me is partly as you go through you change ways of doing stuff to be more open, I think a little bit, show your own challenges sometimes that you're you're not quite sure the answer those sort of things. I think I was when I learned the most, because players Teach me huge amounts now because I'm much more likely to say, Well, not quite sure what to do about that. And then they start telling you stuff and you go, Wow, yeah, great idea.
Paul Barnett 41:02
Why would you do that? And then you can pass that on to somebody else, if you want do you think is relevant? Peter is many, many years to go before you become a full time gardener. And you get back out into the into the back garden working on those flower beds. But when that day finally does come and maybe it never will. What's the legacy you'd like to leave as a coach?
41:23
I think the legacy for me, I think is the way I look at it. It's your CV really is the players you work with, that they feel that you've helped them improve. They do the improvement, but you've helped them move, you've helped them improve, maybe not just as a player, but as a person. I love the fact that lots of people I've coached at different times, you still connect to you don't speak to them all the time. But if you saw them at dinner, or you speak to them on the phone, you reconnect straightaway, because you started to get to the point together have been excited about something they were trying to do at that time in their life. And hopefully they they've achieved that so I think the legacy is much more in the people you work with rather than the trophies you're winning some ways how they look back on their time, they weren't in the setup, the valparai [PB14]
Peter Moore's thank you so much for your time this evening. feels like it's a bit of a masterclass in coaching. some great tips in there and reverse psychology let's call it and managing teams. So thank you very much for your time tonight and all the best for the for the winter training season.
42:26
Thanks for gutful