Ep36_DamianMcGrath_Edit1
Sat, 3/13 6:40PM • 40:37
Grab is underlined
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, people, players, realise, team, play, big, coaching, leeds, travelled, bit, famous, germany, game, assistant coach, speak, story, organisation, win, thought
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Damian McGrath
Paul Barnett 00:00
So Damian McGrath Good afternoon, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Damian McGrath 00:05
Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.
Paul Barnett 00:07
We are very excited to talk not just about rugby with you today, but more about your global perspective on coaching, which we'll get into a minute, but it's very broad, but maybe just something simple to start with. Where are you in the world today? And what have you been up to so far?
Damian McGrath 00:22
I mean, Heidelberg, in southwest Germany, stocks the wrong word. But you know, circumstances have helped me to enjoy Germany a little bit. perspective, I was hoping to get on tornados flight from private was close I, but I've been here, I think the last time was what was August. So I'm looking forward to at some point, getting back to the family. It's a Sunday afternoon. It's wet, miserable outside, but I'm looking forward to talking about coaching.
Paul Barnett 00:46
Well, we appreciate you taking time from your wet and miserable afternoon to talk to us. So we'll try to make it entertaining for you. Yeah. David, I usually start by asking our guests, what do they think the great coaches do differently? But you've said, and I'm going to quote you on this one. There's no such thing as a great coach, because I think there's far too much to learn. So I'm going to reframe my question a little bit, because you've worked with some very, very good coaches, if not great, people like sir Clive Woodward. There's Simon are more there's grey and marrying the Australian Of course. So maybe I'll reframe my question and ask you, what do you think separates the good coaches from the rest?
Damian McGrath 01:26
I'll give you just before I answer that, the reason I said it is that I think the biggest disappointment of my coaching career is that it's now coming towards its end and I'm just starting to get to grips with how much I don't know. And it's always a voyage of exploration. So I think for any coach, you never get to that point where you think you know everything and there's always something around the corner, great article that piques your interest, something you see that just sparks some thought in your mind that wants to take you in a different direction. So that's that was why I said that. All the names you mentioned a fantastic coaches. But the one guy who I'll talk about is a guy called Paul Daley, who I don't know if you remember that famous old john Cleese show Fawlty Towers, there was a Spanish way to call Manuel in that. If you're looking to visualise him in your mind, Paul was Manuel thick black hair, big black moustache, only small in statute. But well, guy, he caught me as a player of battling which was a second division rugby league team in England. And he taught me some valuable lessons. First thing he did was made me aware of how important enthusiasm was because he was one of those people who could light up a room rebellion, which in theory was professional that then was no different in the 80s. When I played from from any other sport at the time, we train by running around in circles to get fit. And we only saw a ball usually in a couple of sessions before we played. It was a drudge to a degree turned up knowing that you're going to get flogged if you'd lost and it wasn't quietly the scientific approach that we expect from our coaches now, but Paul had that ability to tell stories and to infuse you and you know, if he just said to me and to any of the players I think at the time, I want you to go stand on the roof of that house over there. You'll be a great job for the team. You do it because she believed in entirely he just had that where he talked about sacrifices while he had no formal education. He was a minor from in the pits from Featherston. I think he was one of 13 children. He had a twin brother and he told all the stories, you know, he wore them me downs and his twin brother got the better ones first before him because he was about four minutes older. But we were mourning one evening about he was raining hard and it was just another druggie night and he told a great story about you know, you don't realise what sacrifice is. And I know he was over egging the omelette but he told about how he did a shift down the mines and then got a bus from Featherston to Leeds which was about an hour got the train from Leeds to Halifax, which was another hour then ran from the train station to throw mall which was Halifax from Billings ground and one of the famous teams at the time, played in the Championship final Filofax the warning got Man of the Match. He got fish and chips on the train on the way home did all the return journey the same way and go to work in the mines the next day. So now that sacrifice that's everybody had a way of telling it then you just put enthusiasm into everything you did and he made training fun even that boring. Sometimes we're not gonna stop he could make you enjoy being there. Well, the thing that then marked him out for me was he had that he was old school in so much of what he did. He went on the 1988 as a support to the fallen Great Britain to play Australia and the British lions that will believe version of Talos and he met some people at Parramatta and obviously Australia will be linked to was like he is in Great Britain and he reflected on the scores on the field at the time, but you can't back. And his thinking on training changed completely. And we started to do things which fit the strengths of our very poor team. And it was the first time I'd ever seen anybody adapt something to fit the players. And he explained why he was doing it and what we're doing it for. And, again, if we're talking about whatever made you want to be a coach, he just taught my eyes to things, he made me think about things in a different way. Didn't tell it to me directly, but just watching him in action. And what I admired about him most was someone who's been in the game for so long, and was scored in a really different way of doing things was prepared to change, and to take his own way of coaching and the game forward. And in a small way, it was successful relative to where we were to what we became. And I just thought that was such a fantastic thing. He was a guy that we'll never get to recognise, never gets mentioned. And when I retired from coaching, he was the guy that as I finished playing with him play a coach for the reserves that badly, he recommended me to Doug Lawton, who was the head coach of Leeds, who won our lead rhinos over the blue chip club in British Columbia. He, he recommended me to doggers to be his assistant coach, and he headed up the Academy. But that was another story. But it was Paul who got me that it was Paul came to work at Leeds, as a helper in the academy. And I had such a great story background, he wasn't there, just like being involved. And when he retired from everything, he became the head of Headingley experience where he used to take snakes of schoolchildren around the facility was obviously had the only as the cricket ground, you know, the famous Test cricket ground, and the rumeli. And I think until very recently, he was still doing it, he must be nearly 18 hours, if not close. But just everything about him made me think that is a great coach, just a great people person and always looking for what can you do to make it better?
Paul Barnett 07:02
I wonder whether then it was him that ignited this passion in you for change, because he said that he was prepared to change. And of course, your career is being marked by change. If I've got this, right, you've coached in the UK, Germany, Samoa, Canada, and Spain. Yeah, those are just the national countries you've coached. you've travelled all around the world coaching those teams in various locations. What does this taught you about the cultural similarities and differences within teams,
Damian McGrath 07:32
you just wrote this down. Michael Palin, you know, the old Monty Python, on he did a famous problem on travelling around the world on a train, he wrote something, the more you travel, the more you realise your experience of life is just a way of living. And everybody has a, there's a different way of living everywhere you go. And that that's something that's, I found fascinating, even here in Germany, which, if you walked onto the street, and you're out here with the eyes closed, the people look like they do in the UK, most of Germany looks like the UK in various parts. But there are differences in life that, that you find so hard sometimes to come across, or you got to some more work, it's a completely different way of life. And as long as you will get on board with everybody's way of living, and then it's an enjoyable way to live your life, just to do things in a different way to accept things because of the place you're in. It is a fascinating thing.
Paul Barnett 08:30
Yeah. No, I can understand. And what about winning teams? How have you seen these cultural differences played themselves out, if at all, maybe they are just the same. I
Damian McGrath 08:40
mean, even even when I left rugby league to go to review, it was a huge cultural change. Because I did that back at the end of the 1990s, we ended the 2000s, when Rugby Union had just come professional. Now, the two chords are very close together. Whereas then it was a massive difference. Some of the clubs had gone professional, and were treating their players like nine to five employees trying to fill the day as you would a business. So it was markedly different than I came from a billing which other professional, if you want to call it that outlook and your pay to win and will much more advanced to try and see life through their lens and how they did and be careful how you make changes how you suggested changes. And that taught me a great lesson. Because when I went to spend the football nation, ostensibly and we had to our siestas, every afternoon, we didn't eat till 930 10pm at night, all those things were a little different spin how it would be normal playing a power game with the smaller Latin America that you know, the Spanish had a very different approach to ball sports, it was much more handy core data driven as opposed to power driven. So that was a lesson in how to put across your points from their perspective. Nevermind the fact that most of them couldn't speak English. So you have to think about what you said and And not just how you say it, because the nuances of the language are different. And whilst the guy who was translating for you might repeat it verbatim, the feeling or other that what the point you're trying to put across it or convey in what you say was, was different. So that was one of the sort of lightbulb moments for me in Spain when I had to stop and really think about what it was I wanted to get across. And be much more concise in what I said,
Paul Barnett 10:26
I want to pick up on this idea of feeling, actually, because you're the author of three books. And there's also lots of good articles around. So I was able to get some great quotes to really help me prepare for this interview today. And there's one that I really liked, actually, when you said, that, surely is culture. It's how you make people feel. So what I wanted to ask you is, how have the greatest cultures that you've experienced, made you feel?
Damian McGrath 10:51
Well, I think what is driving a team or an organisation, they're the culture because they're the people who set the standards, if they're inclusive, and if they can make an environment welcoming, then everybody wants to be part of it. And I can still remember my teeth, I'm 60. Now and I can still remember my teachers from primary school, because three of them were just great storytellers to read books and do voices, and I can still see their faces. And remember the end because of how they made me feel. And their lessons were just that way. My life's full of people have made me remember that from how they make me feel. [PB1] And connections are great. And I think connection, as a leader, coach, teacher, whatever you want, however you want to describe them. Having connection with people is just so important. We always talk about the grid, and the names you mentioned that begin the great sporting coaches. They're very, very good at what they do. But what allows them to move on is how they connect with people and how they connect to what they want to sell to them with what the people want to buy into. And connections are an amazing thing. I've been part of some really good ones. It depends on the people you have with you. I think, in Canada, I very much I let the players and new staff drive the progress. Once I got, I'd saw my message. And all I did was steer clear to Germany, it's the other way around. It's a very different cultural approach to sport. They're very efficient, and they like to do things by the book, I have to drive a lot of what we do to get things going in the right direction. And you can get results I think as long as you as the leader, are on board 100% I always think coaches are like actors. If you and I were going to a western shore and we just got matinee ticket would still expect to be entertained in the same way that someone went on Saturday night to measure the week. And every time I go to a training session or a meeting, I realised that I have to perform as though it's that once a week thing, you have to radiate and futurism, you've got to be sure that you know what you're talking about that you take it in the right direction. And yet the person at the core of every organisation has to do that they take things forward. And great cultures can be built. But as soon as I think some key people disappear, they can crumble just as easily.
Paul Barnett 13:14
You say great cultures can be built. Could you share an example of the best example of one where you've seen it transformed from something that wasn't great. It is something that was great.
Damian McGrath 13:25
Yeah, and that's an easy one for me because it comes back to my the man I regard as the greatest coach and that's great Murray, an Australian who told the story many times but I was assistant coach at Leeds rhinos in 1997. I think it was in the club in the new inter superly and Dean Bell, the famous Kiwi player that come in as head coach, I've been assistant at a great success with with the Academy, but I was fairly new to being in a senior position in senior Ruby. So I was assistant coach Dean decided to step aside. He wanted to go look in the academy system. So Leeds employed Graham Murray, who had a big success around the NRL clubs in Australia. And I didn't know what to expect, I had never met him and I received a phone call from him. And we're going back to the 90s. Now before emails and such light were really the accepted form of of how to do things. And we talked for half an hour on the phone and he gave me a list of things he liked me to do. And one of them was Could I get a list of names of all the staff and players and put in a letter or a fax I think it might fax and also get a name of their wives, husbands or partners and send that across. So I did that to Leeds was was a big organisation much akin to a soccer club at a commercial department that in fact that was run the Cricket Stadium as well. So it was a big thing. So I did that and sent it over to Graham. When he arrived. We went to pick him up from the airport and came in and he was laughing He always laughing always. And it reminded me of Paul Daley and I said, fuse YaSM was easy to see and, but he, he made me feel as though I've known him for years, which was a skill in itself. We went into the main office, and he came across and people still to come to meet him as the chief exec took him out. And he went over to duty in the shop and was the head of the lease rental shop and Gary Hetherington, the chief editor. So David Graham, this is Julie. She's the Julie, how are you? How's Paul? Well, you could see your shoulders went back and he knows me, he knows who I am. How is he? He did that with about four or five different people at different times in the next hour or so. And it was all circus trick, I suppose a you know, a bit of a memory thing, just by showing an interest in people. And those everybody in different parts of the organisation thought he knows me. And he knows something about me. And even within that first hour, he had people in the palm of his hand, and I thought, what, what amazing thing to do. But then when he got with a players who were with some very talented players a bit louder if you follow football, but Manchester United are now lots of star names, but not really producing the good. And he sat them down. And he sold him what he wanted to do, why he wanted to do, and he gave him some little rules, like, you'll travel everywhere with us, which seem obvious now. But when we were eating lunch times, or when we were travelling, you must take up the next big chair, not go and sit on the table with your own little friends. And he just lots of little things like that. And he just needed that to get people together. You change the way we played ever so slightly, but it made everybody feel as though they were contributing to the team. And we had little groups of it didn't call it didn't have a leadership group such as a group of influences. He got the key people. He just got them together and spoke to them took him for a coffee, which now I think will say well, that's nothing new book. I'm going back 2022 years now, when nothing like that was done[PB2] . And I watched, I watched over the next six months, things change Gumball if we had a couple of decent wins, as we should have done with the players. Yeah, but we ended up going on to the first ever grand final move on the cup of the last ever find that little Wembley Stadium, the rugby Challenge Cup, we won that in 99. And it was just a it was a transformation from from a struggling team with a storied history that looked like it would never come back. And it was the foundation of what lead rhinos have become over the last 20 years, which has been well championed, and had some great success. But what Graham did and how he did it was fascinating to watch and to be part of a
Paul Barnett 17:43
great story. David, thank you for sharing it. I hadn't heard you say that one before. So thank you. We haven't met before today. So I'm going to ask this next question. But I could be wrong. Because it comes from just researching and preparing. But it seems that one of the recurring themes, elements of your life is like curiosity. I know that you said you were a school teacher and you, quote took a gamble to go into full time coaching. And then you've taken jobs all around the world. you've travelled extensively with those teams in sevens tournament's. You've got an ongoing interest in learning in developing and you've actually also said, quote, I was always fascinated by what it was that made the best players the best. And that curiosity and my teaching background made the step into coaching an obvious one. So I was wanting to build on this idea of curiosity and values and to sort of ask you, what are the values that have travelled with you on that journey that are just central to who you are as a coach.
Damian McGrath 18:39
I think values are very important. And the difference between my coaching career and my playing career, if you could call it a career, but I was a sports fanatic, I just I love cricket, or football or rugby, I'd rather play than do anything else. But I just wanted to play. And just to digress a little bit. My younger brother Anthony is the head coach at Essex, who were the county champions in in cricket in England. He played for England as a test cricketer. He was a played for Yorkshire captain for 14 years. I saw him as a four year old boy tie a cricket ball onto the washing line in our garden, and just monotonously played forward defensive strokes. He worked to become successful what he alternated became way beyond anything I ever did. I just like to play and I realised as I got a little bit older and couldn't understand why everybody was better than me. That what he did was the way to do it that you needed to sacrifice and focus hard and work on all facets of the game and all grip players I began as I looked at it closer, they all had that drive to be better. I find that sometimes that's the difference between there's lots of talented people that don't make it but they're not willing to do it. You know the old trick I use this for the players and the way you say put your right hand in the air, the air as high as you can, and they all put their hands up. And then you said, No, no, put it higher, and they can all push a little bit higher. And I tried to explain to them, that's the difference your I said, do it the best you can. And yet, when I asked you again, you could push it, but I had to ask you, and the grip players, the people are successful at most things are already going to the age point because they're already pushing to be the best they can be. That's what I understood[PB3] , as I began to finish playing and think about coaching, and it was about pushing people to get the best and to realise their potential. And that's, that's what took me forward. And I found that, you know, honesty is lots of values, people say what your What are your values, and they'll tell you what they are, but they can tell you what they are, but they don't necessarily live them. And yet, if you don't, you cannot, as a coach, leader manager move forward[PB4] . If you're honest with people, they will trust you. And they'll trust you because they think you're an authentic person. One of my close friends was a comedian on a lookbook when we were in our early 20s, back in the day, and he tells a great story, how he started, he just wanted to work on cruise ships. I mean, you start is the man that held a monkey while a guy took a photo. Then he became a photographer. Then he became the emcee on the show. And he ended up being the comedian. But it wasn't the way it was. But he tells a great story how this girl he was cracking jokes and chasing on the ship. Seven o'clock the next morning, it was a hammering on his daughter, she came with a mother to say, skip, this is my mom be funny. And it wasn't him. He wasn't that wasn't who he was. But to be a coach[PB5] , you have to be that you have to be authentic. If it's not just an act, and then you certainly not that you have to be all the time. Honesty in not just in what you say, but in who you are, is important. And you have to show people that you care. Because if you don't care, they won't care. And you've got to do around that, you know, there's one thing I feel guilty about now, and it's a small thing, but it bugged me for ages is when I was with Canada, on one of the trips, we had business class flights from Dubai back to Seattle, which is a long, long way. And that was like it with Emirates as well, one of the best airlines. So it was 14 hours of doing that is better than 14 hours setting economy. As a young coach growing up, you know, I always got the, if any business class flights came on I, I always missed out because the senior people got that announcement, I can't wait to be a senior coach or whatever on there. Now, I'll get the business class C's, but then you start to realise what that's not what a leader does. You make sure everybody else's all right before you. And one of the staff had, he was he was on Well, he was feeling sick and nauseous. And he was struggling with cramps and things. And I thought that he'd already sort of given him a seat and I didn't give up my seat for him. And he had the worst trip of all time. And that that killed me for, you know, for Norway's I know, it's Catholic guilt or whatever. But those things I think are important. You've got to show people you care, and you've got to put them before you, then they'll care about what they do for you. So values are really important. I just think you have to be underpins everything you do. Because then you can set the culture, then you can be that person that creates the environment that people want to be part of.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 23:24
So you say that's bugging you. And it's I could understand looking back, what would have been, when you left that candidate team, it's my understanding that the players gave you something that you consider to be very special. And I wonder whether you could tell us about what they gave you.
Damian McGrath 23:39
They wrote me a reference. I mean, which I suppose as a coach is the ultimate thing. And you know, they they wrote me a two page reference the entire team on why if another organisation should hide, it was probably the most precious coaching thing in sport I've ever got. Because it was, I won't read it to you because I spoke to my wife this morning, because I found I found a copy of it on my laptop. And I said, I can't share this because it just is personal and but it but it was it was everything I want to be just about dedication and putting other people first and creating a culture and bringing people together and all the things I've just talked about. So that's why it's precious to me. I mean, I could never share it. I could never send it to a prospective employer book. It's just nice to know sometimes it gives you that warm feel. Maybe what I did was was right, and maybe all the things I did were worth it.
Paul Barnett 24:34
The lovely gift. It's a lovely memento to have from your time in Canada. And maybe if there is a fourth book elements of it could be reproduced.
Damian McGrath 24:43
Your questions that sort of sparked an interest in being laid up here. I've started I think about coaching from sort of a leadership point of view more and more and I don't think I think there's as coaches we should do that. We should you should document What you do all the time, I know everybody who's successful is a self reflective or should be. But I don't think sometimes we document the things we go through and how it leads to change and how we manage that change and how we sort of where you have to be fluid and how you move forward. It's a worthwhile task.
Paul Barnett 25:19
I think with the I mean, we've just gone through the biggest reset, probably in hundreds of years. And one of the things that fascinates me is the way that I think coaches are generally quite selfless people. And there's a degree of I think they have higher than average resilience from the average person on the street. And so I think those two elements are in short supply. And that's why I think coaches are very worth interviewing and listening to him to the podcast. But there is one I'm not gonna say controversial, but there was one really interesting element of your story that I wanted to ask you about, because it seemed a little at odds with the other things I'd heard from other coaches. And it's about goal setting. And you were saying you're not a big fan of it, you think that every day should be about being the best you could be in? And I thought it was a little strange, because without a goal, where are you heading?
Damian McGrath 26:09
But yeah, make you do have a goal. Because if, let's say here in Germany, our goal is to get onto the World Series. And our goal is to qualified for the Olympics. So you get with a real reason to be everybody has that resin d'etre you, you know where you're going as a professional coach, because usually you're in a competition, by goals. I mean, I'm sometimes against those short term goals, whenever again, at home, or will the wind throughout the next fall? Because what if you lose the first two? Or what if you lose your first home game those seasons out? I just feel sometimes they can put an added pressure on players. I'm not saying that that might be wrong, you know, everybody has this model, in my opinion. But I think if you should end to be the best you can be every day, as I talk to you about the court who gets up and his lack of performance, yes, you have to be the best you can be. And I think if you work to that limit, if you're not going to put his hand up to the highest possible point and pushes it up, then you can achieve the process is so important. outcomes will usually take care of themselves. And I think that's what I was trying to say that rather than signposted everything, have the end goal in mind, but then be the best you can be and it's amazing what can happen. Now, I
Paul Barnett 27:21
think it is okay. So I won't drill too deeply on that thing. Because it sounds like you do have goals, just not to put too much pressure on the team.
Damian McGrath 27:27
Yeah, maybe I was, I wasn't being as clear as I should be.
Paul Barnett 27:34
You know, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was the art of feedback. Or maybe it isn't an art maybe the style of giving feedback, because in the corporate world, you have these anonymous 360 degree surveys where you give people feedback, and I'm not sure that the anonymous element of that is particularly good in your in his position as a coach where you've got to give players feedback all the time, particularly about selection. So I wanted to ask you, are there any ways that you found more effective than others in giving feedback or negative news?
Damian McGrath 28:05
Oh, it's the hardest thing of all to do. Because it's the least enjoyable. Everybody wants to give good news. Usually, when you're given negative news, it's someone has worked, particularly when someone's work very hard, and they've given they've been the best that can be but you just don't feel it's right for the team, then I think you have to go back to your values about honesty and caring and being reliable in that what you do is what you say, and I always make it clear to all the players right at the start. At some point, I have to make a decision that I can't really put a finger on, but I feel it's best for the team. It's never personal. And it's those people look at them as sandwiches, don't they, you know, the the traditional sandwiches, good news, bad news, good news. People who don't put any good news in the towel and feelings should just come out and say it but I feel you should give them a chance to speak. You tell them what your decision is, you try and give them a reason why, even though they might not be able to see they understand that you've got a reason. But then allow them to speak because I feel that's much better than them going away and festering and having something on the mind or even encouraging them to come and speak to you a little bit later for thought about something. And I try wherever possible to come back to that person sometime in the next few hours or the next day just to speak to them and ask them how they're feeling. And not everybody accepts it. It's given them without a reason if you can tell them why even if they do I've accepted at least they know you're doing it for a reason not because it's anything personal. Or you think they're rubbish. I was trying to give them in a team context and where I feel Paul is better than Damien for this because I think he can do this in this game. At least then they can see you've got a reasoned [PB7] Yeah, pleasing answer.
Paul Barnett 29:54
No, that that makes that makes a lot of sense, I think. And then when you do it in a team environment, two players can support each other Guess as well when there is
Damian McGrath 30:02
I think that's where influences and I think that's a great thing about having the right people, senior people within the team and even using the staff because at the end staff are very important people who are closest to you when you're not there they are you and they got a project the same message and but they can also not be seen as a threat the headquarter is always the person that no one wants to upset and what they'll say to you, we completely different what they might relax uncertainty. s&c on the physio or the analyst. And then I always said to the staff, it doesn't matter how the head coach finds out once a coach finds out, which is an old Greg Murray thing. He always got his info from what players spoke about, you know, in what they saw as a less formal environment. When you were a younger coach, you were given a wonderful piece of advice. I couldn't find the name of the coach who gave it to you actually, but I checked, was pulled daily. So he said,
Paul Barnett 31:01
Don't Don't listen to the people in the stands, or you'll end up sitting next to them. Which I think's fantastic. But I imagine it's easier said than done. What top tips do you have for other people? Who would trying to put that piece of advice into practice?
Damian McGrath 31:17
Well, it's not that you shouldn't listen to people, but you should listen to the right people. Give you a great example about the difference between an opinion and a decision was going back to the graham Maria's grandma to go back to Australia because his mom died. Sadly, for four games, I was elevated to the big seat. So first game was on Sky Sports, like live on Sky Sports with 20,000 people in heading and we're playing Sheffield Eagles team, we were near the bottom of the league and we were expected to to win handsomely. All I done was move one seat across. So from sitting my seat in the stand where normally I wouldn't say Graeme seat, one seat across, we will lose 18 nil after 15 minutes, though starting to get uneasy in the crowd and just cut out the corner of my eye on the big screen that the cameras were on me. And suddenly I felt the weight of the world on my shoulder. And I suddenly understood that the difference between giving an opinion which I used to do to Graham, and suddenly having to make a decision, or make a substitution to change the way we play the week. That was what I was saying, you know there were people shouting all sorts of things. When I went down the stairs at halftime, we've got to get him back. But you got to do this, you got to do that. And you've got to you've got to live in for by your own thoughts. And that moment brought home to me really clearly what the difference between opinions and decisions were in. When you're in a decision making position. You've got to be careful who you listen to. Bob Fulton, the famous Australian rugby league coach, one of the all time greats as a player, you probably won't know about in that in the sort of late 80s, early 90s. As a young teacher, I worked as the liaison officer for the Australian rugby league for the kangaroos when they taught I got to become good friends with Bob Fulton. And it was time for all the big stars in Australia who believe meninga and Clyde have dead all the great days before camera phones and all those things that I had an amazing five or six weeks living in the teen motel. One of the things I enjoyed the most was the evenings where we'd sit with a with a staff, and they talk about their experiences. And Bob Fulton said to me, You said I know you're a young coach. He said, let me tell you now, don't surround yourself with your friends. And yes, men get the best coaches you can the best stuff you can. He said because you can't rely on other people you don't want Yes, ma'am? You want people are going to challenge you. You want people are going to make you think about things. He said you don't want people either going to agree with you or seeing what their friends down the pub or telling them and that's where that thought and feeling came from about getting PPI [PB8] I have mentors who want to come up people whose opinions are close to or know about similar experience who don't tell me things, but they'll suggest things if I ask Paul Daley being one of them, I often saw him like India, and he asked me how I was doing. But he never told me anything unless I said what do you think about this? And it gives me an opinion on something. And those are people I think you've got to listen to all certainly weigh up their opinions alongside yours.
Paul Barnett 34:21
It's funny you say that, Damian because I think this is common thread with between coaches that they don't want the limelight. And so unless they asked for advice, it's really hard to get them to speak hence why Jim and I have to pester our coaches to try to get them to come and talk to us. So we're very appreciative of you taking your time to share that story with us. But Could I just build on that one a little bit, actually, because social media experts?
Damian McGrath 34:47
Yeah, it's we've got to stay away from Yeah, sorry, did I just say, the people like you're on social media, the great coaches, I mean, the people who are really doing things at the top level, you don't see them. Giving opinions are things on social media, but there are 1000s of people who tell you what Eddie Jones should be doing this afternoon with England against France. What are they going to associate should have done last night when Manchester United play? There are lots of those. And they're all experts. But they're just given an opinion. They don't know the facts. So
Paul Barnett 35:17
tell me, can I build on this idea of failure? Actually all challenge actually is probably a better word. How do you think the most experienced coaches deal with failure or challenge in such a way that it becomes an energy that propels them forward? Is there something they do? Is there a way they reframe it in their mind? Or they reframe it for the team that creates this energy?
Damian McGrath 35:40
I think so I think how you deal with defeat is far more important than how you deal with winning because if you project it as the end of the world and becomes a blame culture, then it's very hard to get that back. I've always been of the mindset, you never lose, you learn. And that even when things are gone badly, I'll always try and a bit like the feedback in we talked about you feeding back to a losing team. You can't just say you're rubbish, you're rubbish. That's not good. You have to find something out of the remnants of defeat that points away forward[PB9] . My best ever for that. My personal one was with some more against Fiji in Paris, we won the World Series league in Paris in 2016. We beat Fiji in the final Fiji went on to win the gold medal in the Olympics, and they had all the big star names from all over the world. They were in our group to try and qualify for the knockout. We came second to them. But they're absolutely smashed. It's 42 nil, I think it was a 46 nil, which in a game of sevens is a big score. We weren't just second we were we weren't even on the same field. We got absolutely hammered. But we came out the next day and beat South Africa be Argentina and we're against Fiji and the fine. So from the ashes, how do you fashion something that's going to take you into a competitive game and the Samoan way is very different. Go back to cultural things. Brian Lima, the famous player was was assistant coach and he was old school he wanted to, I think he would have been flogged if he could he was he was all about blame and finger pointing. And I was expecting a message from the prime minister to say it wasn't good enough. And I knew that that wouldn't take us anywhere forward. And so I use the video from that with all the good things we did. But what could have happened were we made miss it was all our mistakes that allow them to win. Not that there were just really, and it gives the players a little bit of self belief. And as we'd have it, we beat him in the fire. But we were losing 26 nil at halftime and came back to win 2826 or something. But it was the same thing. Yeah, half time in a split second, I had to do the same sort of engineering of self belief. They doubt that God It wasn't them. It was it's, I think, again, the other great coaches I've seen do this use use it as a as an energy to propel the team forward. It's not them. It's always wait. They're not that much better than it was it's just we're not doing this right. And that right? It's all about those not there. And it's not about your rubbishing get off, you'll never play for this club again, which I've heard other coaches say I've been in dressing rooms where you've seen people just assassinated and you think, Well, you know, is that really going to help going forward with we've got to play again next week as well. And I just think that use every defeat as a lesson to move forward. And and the best coaches I think, do that they see it as a challenge to move on to the next one.
Paul Barnett 38:36
them, you know, no, you're coaching Germany, and I listening to you and watching you move in some of those YouTube videos, I think you've got many years to lift as a coach. But if I was to gather up all your ex players and ask them what the legacy they think you've left is, what do you think they'd say?
Damian McGrath 38:57
So I sent that question through to you and I thought about it for what is it? What I'd like them to say is He is such a funny guy, and his jokes hit the mark every time and we'll never forget them. Usually, everybody, their eyes roll a moment as soon as I start telling a story or telling a joke. So I asked my wife and I asked one of the coaches I worked with, and they said self belief. My strength is to put self belief into people or into teams that I can I can move the next bit and which I think just talking now, I think is probably true that I never feel as though anybody's better than I was. And I always try and get that across. My enthusiasm for the players I'm working with at the time is on Shere Khan and I, I believe in them. 100% I am I can do tackle Personally, I like to point out what people can do not it's easy to find out people's fault, but I look to highlight what is they're good at and then we work on other things to make that thing even better. So I think yeah, it's self belief i would i would agree with it, making that a priority, because then people can reach their potential which is, which I think is a great thing. You see people achieve what what they need to be.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 40:13
Damian McBride. It's been wonderful speaking to you this afternoon. Thank you so much for sharing some key messages and stories from your journey. I know it's not over yet. And I look forward to that fourth book being published one day and maybe there will be a bit in there from the candidate reference that they wrote for you.
Damian McGrath 40:29
Thank you. Well, it's been a real pleasure to speak to parents had the questions in a way you want to