Ep40_BenRyan_Edit1
Fri, 4/2 10:38AM • 36:17
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, fiji, players, people, coaching, culture, bit, team, sport, sevens, big, olympics, feel, agreed, england, play, create, diet, olympic gold medal, field
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Ben Ryan
Paul Barnett 00:00
Ben Ryan. Good afternoon, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Ben Ryan 00:04
As good to be out enjoyed our little preamble and chats actually. And yeah, I'm looking forward to chatting about well, whatever you asked me Really?
Paul Barnett 00:12
Well, I'm going to start with a really tough question. Where are you in the world today? And what have you been up to so far?
Ben Ryan 00:19
Well, I'm in. I'm in southwest London, I live in Richmond, which is a beautiful part of London, really. And in lockdown, it's afforded us the opportunity to get into a lot of green spaces, you know, into the park and down by the river, I grew up on the other side of the river in Brantford, which as much as I love where I grew up, and my hometown, that I'm a season ticket holder, and for the football team, it's not quite got the green spaces of the other side of the river. So I'm glad I'm here now. And work is difficult, I guess, in many ways, because a lot of my diet of work is meeting people doing stuff and consulting. But I consult for UK sport as well. And they're obviously having to pivot at the moment with a delay of the Olympic Games. So across all their Olympic teams, there's been quite a lot of work to help with that. And I've been doing some other random stuff trying to learn French because I work for the French Federation, and we're trying to add three years. So just to get myself to a position where I feel comfortable. And yeah, other other little projects that I've been trying to get off the ground that hopefully might have might eventually have been the case after we come out of this lockdown. But yeah, it's kind of it's a very long answer, really, at the start lockdown, I was really grateful for the time and space. And now I am feeling a bit like groundhog and I want to get out and do things. And it stirred my thought process into maybe going back into a full time role in in performance somewhere, because I've been holding off pushing back on that and just going to only have conversations about part time roles. And now maybe, maybe that fires got a little bit too big again, to get to get involved in another project. So we'll see.
Paul Barnett 02:00
Well, I'm looking forward to talking to you about that fire, actually. And hopefully, the discussion around your coaching journey will just ignite it that little bit more, because there is a wonderful crescendo at the Olympics. But before we get to that, I'd like to, I'd like to go on the journey, actually of where it all began, because you've coached all around the world, Asia and Europe. And of course, before we were talking about coaching here in the Czech Republic, you've been to the Olympics. You've spent time with the New York Knicks. And I'm sure there's many other professional sporting athletes and sporting organisations you've been a part of. So you've seen a lot of coaches up close. And so what I'd like to start with is, what is it you think that the great coaches do differently from the others?
Ben Ryan 02:44
Yeah, this is I mean, you sent me this question in advance, and i and i ruminated on it quite a long time, really, because I think I think it's easy to kind of go Wait, there's a single thing, all the coaches I know of work hard. It's not that's not always the case, I can think of a couple of exceptions of coaches are working incredibly clever. But they might not be at their desk first and out the office last. But I know that's a common kind of strapline, a lot of coaches will say about working long, long hours. So I'm not sure it's that, I think I would say in a very, very big continuum. There's something around creativity for coaches. Now, you might look at one coach that's very pragmatic and structured and rigorous, but he might still have creativity in some of the things he does and thinks that different ways to navigate his path, I suppose. So that kind of creativity around planning, I think is quite a big piece for a lot of the coaches that I've seen, there is obviously resilience, because there's not many coaches I've met that haven't had some pretty poor moments and some some failures. And I think, again, it's a difficult question because I know there's lots of coaches out there, where if you speak to half the team, they'll say their man management skills are terrible, and never half that they say it's amazing. The kind of coaches that I like, are very aware of that have good personal relationships create a safe psychological environment. But I'm also aware that there are coaches that are highly successful, that don't create that. And I guess that shows, you know that you know, there are different ways to skin a cat in in, in creating success. But I go on to the side that if you create an environment where everybody feels safe to have conversations with everybody, and can be their best versions. And I know that gets that's another thing. That's step one, it gets banged out a lot, but let people just be able to do their thing within an agreed set of guardrails. So a set of rules everyone's agreed. And inside that you've got that that security. I think that's that's where I see the best, high performance culture, sustainable cultures thriving.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 05:00
Then you started your coaching career in 97. At St. Edwards, you spent six years there. And I find this next bit quite mind boggling. By the time we left the school had a play in every England international squad from under 16. to seniors. That sounds like a pretty successful apprenticeship. How important was that experience to your future development or your present development as a coach,
Ben Ryan 05:25
teaching full stop was was was central really at the at the start? I probably go rewind a couple of years because I did my teaching practice in a school in King's Lynn, outside Cambridge when I was it, university there. And my first coaching really was football, and I love coaching football. I love playing around with formations and movements without having the intricacies as a didn't play high level football. I played a lot of football as a kid, but never to a high level. I loved that. And then I was a supply teacher when I had to stop playing rugby in all over London, and ended up again back at a school in in West London in Southall, where it was football again, and athletics. And I loved coaching athletics. And so when I went to St. Edward's, they had all the resources, they weren't sure of anything like that. And the kids were they had scholarships. So they had a nice range of kids as well. I guess I was lucky. And I think coaches always tend to have I think that the factor, I think it's called the maybe the principle of favourability, where I'm a bit of a believer that if if there's something a big a big task, and it might be like quite a scary task, or whatever it is that at the start of that journey, you get a bit of luck, that something happens that helps you on your journey. And I think we sent Edwards, I came across like two or three players in that my first year that I could see they were going to be fantastic rugby players and you can build a team around them, you know, and they and they won 22 out of 23 games, we only lost our first game, because our number eight who was our goal kicker hit the post from a touchdown conversion not to win the game. And on the other side of the field was a guy called Nick Duncan, who tragically died. when he was very young. He would have been in our 50 capping limp scrumhalf and that was an amazing game between this guy Nick, who was scoring a hat trick for RGS High Wycombe, and James forester who ended up playing for England, and then had a an injury that stopped him playing, scoring lots of tries to the other side. So I had a lot of luck there. And then I kind of just graded success as opposed to that and to athletics. I remember my dad always used to say to me when he was young that they would use athletics in the offseason to get fit and fast and do various things. And I can't use that principle. And actually, some of the boys got to national finals in athletics. And so I enjoyed the kind of probably can't see behind me, but you can you've got Colombo in the corner there. I feel coaches are a little bit like finding little, little clues to performance. So whether it's me teaching someone to triple jump, I'm finding right I've never triple jumps, I understand some of the mechanics on my degree and stuff like that. So let's go and find out about how to coach someone to triple jump. I was an all right gold kicker, but I didn't know the mechanics or Let's go find out a little bit more and, and it makes you curious, I suppose. So when I was a coach and teacher. In those first years, I just embedded I just did as much as I possibly could. So I was coaching everyday as much as I could. I was finding other teams to coach outside the school. And I was also coaching other sports like netball and track and field and football, because I'm curious as a coach and you can learn things off lots of different different people in different sports.
Paul Barnett 08:38
So this curiosity, this teaching environment pushes you along and you get the job at Newbury is the director of rugby, and you help them get into Division One of the championship in 2005. What do you remember most surprising, beings most surprising as you transition from coaching youth to senior teams,
Ben Ryan 08:58
I think it was it wasn't much of a surprise really. Because whilst I was coaching at St. Edwards, I was also coaching the Oxford University. I'm 21 team, so their undergraduate team really, and they were grown up and bright young men, though I was getting that diet across it. So in a normal day, I might be coaching or teaching year sevens PE or and then my girls under 14 netball team, and then you're taking your first 15 and then the evening you go into the Oxford Union under 20 ones and then before I went full time at Newbury, I was for about a quarter of the season, maybe I was doing the backline. So I had that whole straightaway going on as well as coaching Oxfordshire, county and southwest schools. So I was teaching coaching kids from ones that I weren't I wasn't seeing on a regular basis, but I had to immediately try to get some rapport with. So I think it's advice I'd give to any coach read it and start the journey just coached loads, doesn't matter doesn't matter what level what sports for me it's just about getting that getting that diet to have an idea. experiences as quick as you can really.
Paul Barnett 10:04
So this, this energy, this learning this curiosity fuels you to the England sevens coach position in 2007. And you lead them for six years. You coach them for over 300 games, burning your words, the experience left you feeling disillusioned? What did that experience teach you about authentic leadership? wolf?
Ben Ryan 10:26
Well, by the time I got to the end of it, my I was off the ball. Remember, maybe six or seven weeks before my last tournament, which was the Rugby World Cup in Russia, I was going to the field to coach a session that would have been you know, it's pretty important when you get to that, that close to a major competition, I stepped on the field and I was like, I haven't even prepared anything, I don't know what I was doing. Because I was so caught up in battles with senior management at Twickenham. And that was taken up all my emotional time and, and physical time. And it made me realise that I wasn't doing what I had started my coaching journey to do, I take my eye off the ball really mad allowed it to consume me, I'd got really, I was really bad at managing. I was in kind of grown up as a teacher and everything else, I just thought there was a hierarchy and that you had a department who headmaster was the one that organised your your KPIs, your reviews told you when things weren't weren't going well. And that and I was getting very little from my from above, other than criticism or threats from from different angles where you felt, didn't feel safe. Going back to that psychological safety, I didn't feel I have that any safety at all. And the people above me that they were only really looking towards what they could get out of things. And it was a very much a political landscape back then. So I got good at managing because I went to Fiji where I had to be very good at managing with the military dictator as my as my boss, and, and going into a brand new culture. So authenticity. And I think I had lost some of that as well. I think I was short and rude sometimes to some of my coaches in those last couple of months, because of everything else. And I learned a lot of a lot of lessons really in those final months. And it also good example that our culture is pretty good going into those last few months. But it was very up and down in those six months previous but we still hit a welcome final with England. So it goes back to that point that they always have to have a great culture to have the occasional success, I'd set some foundations in place. When I left England, we've got a full time training base, the lensbury Club that were developed over my time with England is now where kind of any international team that comes to England wants to stay now. And I'm proud of that legacy and setting up all of those things. But I learned a lot of lessons on how not to be a good leader from the people that were around me taken away that time.
Paul Barnett 12:53
those lessons get carried over to Fiji because you finished with England and you take that Fiji job straightaway. In 2013, the sevens coach, and in 2015, the team wins the sevens World Series title, which was an amazing result, which had alluded you with England. What were the first things you did in 2013 and 2014. That field that result,
Ben Ryan 13:15
the very first thing that I did when I when I got to Fiji now, I hadn't ever been there before. So although I had played in Fiji and coaching in Fiji, that was about the breadth of my knowledge around the islands. So when I got there first, I think part of my personality isn't to suddenly shout and scream at people and lay down a marker, it's to gather as much information as I possibly can, before we then feel like you've got enough to decide on your next steps and the pace of those next steps and the risk of those next steps. So I went around and listened to people and again, those levels that I've been, I've worked hard on over the last kind of 10 years on my listening skills, not just being on that top level, that's pretty much transactional listening to you just so I can answer your question. But listening to try to understand and then get to that third level where people really think in the relationships you've got with them that they you care about them. And it matters. And you remember things that makes them feel the other parts of psychological safety, like purpose and belief, and their status and their achievements are getting recognised and they feel like they've got control. They've got some autonomy in what we're doing. [PB2] So that was my first bit travelling around meeting people. My management was all feagin. So it was understanding who were the best guys on the ground that were going to help me accelerate kind of my learning and to try to again get that principle of favourability try to get an early win. That would give me time and that wasn't necessarily going to mean a tournament win. But it was going to mean players see a difference. The public see a difference because it's the national sport in Fiji and all eyes are on you in the start. The best way I can think of doing that was to see what the culture, see what the environment is doing, listen, talk, and then make a plan and then work that plan.
Paul Barnett 15:10
You mentioned a minute ago that your boss was the military dictator, that of course, when you did arrive in Fiji, you did find out that the team was bankrupt, had no sponsors, no one had been paid. And you weren't even paid for the first five or six months. But what I'm interested in, though, is that when I see interviews with you about that experience, he say, never doubted your decision. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about doubt. It's so prevalent in people in all of us. And when you encounter other athletes or people that are experiencing doubt, that may be holding them back. I wonder what you find yourself saying to them?
Ben Ryan 15:46
So Good question. Because I think a lot comes into my, my circumstances and being able to take that first decision to go to Fiji. So you're absolutely right, that when I got there, when I'd had those first few weeks in Fiji and the first tournament, we didn't do very well, at a year, I had no doubt that I was gonna stick at it. But when I initially agreed to the job, the following morning, I was looking for any way out of dodge I could possibly find I was getting messages from everyone going, congratulations on the job. But did you know and then there's this, this, this, this this? And so I remember feeling very panicked, ringing my agent asking how I could extricate myself from all of this. And I guess the lesson I learned with that is that, that those decisions in life where, you know, it's a risk, you know, it makes you feel sometimes physically sick to make those calls. For me, that was the best decision I think I've ever made in my life. I've made some risky decisions in business since that have all worked out pretty well. And I think that's my advice sometimes that we are in a culture, and I learned to be much better at this in Fiji we are in a culture in, in modern society where we overthink things too much. We try to map things out too carefully. And we don't just sometimes let our gut instinct just go for it[PB3] . And, and so I got there. And yeah, it was a total mess. Everything that possibly could be wrong was wrong. However, like as a coach, then it gave me a completely blank canvas, I did, I did have the ability to be able to make changes without having to knock on my boss's door at Twickenham, arrange a meeting see in three weeks later realise that whatever he had said to me, meant something totally different. And we couldn't get any changes, at least for Fiji, as long as I explained it to everybody, and it didn't cost any money, I could go and do those things. And so you could start to put some foundations in place. And, and when I had only had about three or four sessions with the boys before the first tournament in Gold Coast with a team that I hadn't picked, I didn't know the players, they were very unfit. None of those were very few of those players would survive to be selected for the next tournament, when I had a bit more time on the ground. The time I was training them was was brilliant. You know, even I could see all their problems they have, I could also see a root out, you can see how you could change it. And you could see how grateful they were that you were there. You can see that natural talent kind of oozing out. And it reminded me of why I became a teacher probably, and became a coach was to help people become as good as they possibly can be really, and then that natural, that naturally ripples over into making a team pretty good if you can get the individuals or at their best and happy and fulfilled. And so that's what gave that that pool. That's what gave me my my lack of doubt really was the sheer enjoyment that I had lost totally in that last year of England and not because the players were unhappy or not joyful or not grateful but because of the culture and environment that was wrapped around the RFU at the time that was causing me just to fall out of love with the game,
Paul Barnett 18:59
Fiji go on this amazing run. And it leads into the 2016 Olympics where rugby is making its debut. Of course, Fiji have never won a medal, and you enter is one of the favourites. But as we all know, on the world stage, reputations can count for very little. Can you tell us about how you helped the team deal with the pressure and expectations leading into that gold medal match?
Ben Ryan 19:23
Yeah, there's probably a number of things like I often say that it's neither one big thing that gets you on top of the podium or one big thing that gets you knocked off it? No, it's a series of small things and consistent behaviours. And so I talked about everything. I was very transparent. We were very transparent what our goals were to everybody that it was a gold medal or nothing for them for the men. We encourage them to talk about that. So we didn't we didn't hide away from that. And we set most conversations were probably pivoting around that as well that we talked about where if we're going to win an Olympic gold medal, this This, this, this has to happen when somebody wasn't hitting the agreed standards and conversations were often around selection and success at the Olympic Games. So we didn't hide away from that. And then we just built consistent behaviours. So that when you have that in a culture, everybody, coaches, management, staff, board, Prime Ministers, and players all understand that if we didn't win Olympic gold medal, it wouldn't be because of that game. In the final where someone drops the ball or misses a tackle, it would have been something that we didn't do six months earlier, and a lack of consistent behaviours. So that drives performance, right. And it means that, you know, I'm a big believer yet teams can go into competitions, having had mixed results going into that and still win, because that's the nature of sport, right? You can have upsets, you can get on momentum, you can get on roles, but I'd much rather see some consistent behaviour behind it, that builds the feeling within a group of over competency. And that's what I tried to strive for, so that the players will feel they'll look at their look, and they'll go, I feel great, I look great. My I know exactly what my role is, and those around me, I know what I need to do to get the team standard team to make the team successful. My skills of being a great, I know what I need to do to get them better. And I feel like I've got some ownership in all of this, if I feel something's going wrong, I can I can help drive this ship. [PB4] That's what where we got to, because I had amazing people like our captain or circle in the cell manager, Apache cow wsc, our physio, William Kuhn and our train another, that would all help send the same message. And so there was there was a real feeling of over competency in that group. And that plus then putting guardrails in place where everyone's agreed that we'll have hand our laptops and our mobiles into the manager week before with the Olympics would be the last team going into the village to avoid distractions. We'll do everything as a group at breakfast at lunch, train everything. So we were nice and tight. Because I've seen all sorts of things go on in previous Olympic Games, I was lucky to be inside the village in the London Games as a as a kind of a spectator, UK sport, it's given me a bit of access for that thinking that I would be the next Olympic coach for Great Britain. All those sort of things just all mess it up. And those small little things made me feel probably a month out of the Olympics, I had absolutely no doubt we were going to win Olympic gold medal. And that might sound like I'm being a bit cocky. But it was based on competencies, and knowing that everything was in our control. And we'd gone through so many different scenarios of what ifs and what could happen. And it felt still felt like we had a robust enough group to deal with whatever got thrown is
Paul Barnett 22:46
an amazing story. And we'll put a link to some of the videos, you can watch about it on the show notes. You talk a lot about it in your book seven, seven, which we'll get to in a minute. But I'd like to just focus in on that culture. Because all the interviews, I read or see whether you are consistent and talking about culture. And then right after you say the word culture, which can mean so many things, you do keep talking about psychological clarity, and safety. There's such important themes, and you've mentioned them numerous times in this interview. If someone's listening, business, sport community groups, whatever team they're involved with, and they wanted to improve the team culture, so that they had the kind of clarity and safety which you just alluded to, where would you advise them to start?
Ben Ryan 23:32
So the stages for me are that first stage where you gather information through meeting listening, people are starting to build relationships with people that to that deeper level where they, they feel like they do care. And then you set your guardrails, where that's agreed. So whether that's something as simple as timings or discipline or diet, you say, this is the consequences. If you're late for training, this is what the consequences are, and everyone agrees them, therefore they own them. Therefore, when they're put under pressure, they're more robust, because it's a collective, it's not coming from one person, it's the group's agreed them, then within those set guardrails, that's where you create that psychological safety by continuing to build those relationships by making sure that you're always thinking about am I did this player feel like they've got a say in this? tricking them I felt I was at the back of some big juggernaut. I had no no say in anything. Whereas I want people to feel like they're in control. They're helping everybody create that. I want to recognise achievements. And I want to make sure I understand what people's purpose are going to see people's families into the villages understand where it came from, what their wives are, it also drives conversations you again get curious as a coach, which I think is a really an important trait. [PB5] I can think of Jerry to why who is like just been named sevens player of the decade. I don't think he would have been pleased to have anything he would have played in the Olympics. I don't think he probably would have even made the Fijian team if I hadn't managed you're gone. To meet his parents have conversations that ended up me finding out a lot more about Jerry about what his drivers were, what his wives were, help direct him towards being a better trainer effectively, and being bit more professional to let allow his God given skills to start to blossom. And that was just by being curious because I found him in a bush hiding from our one of our fitness sessions. And rather than just kick him out, I want to know what what was driving him to feel that it was okay to be in a bush as an international potential player. So I think all of those things, I think, as if you're going to create that right environment, those are the stages you listen, you put guardrails that have been agreed, and then you start to foster that psychological safety. And then inside of that the standard that you walk past is the standard that you become, is then about applying consistent behaviours. So don't be that coach, that high fives you going down the corridor when they've they've had a man of the match, and that ignores you, when you've done something bad, be consistent, that's difficult with coaches, and we've all got our egos. And we're particularly with the better players, I think we can sometimes treat them differently and negatively, you know, and I'm a big believer that the really good players, those star players are often can be seen as the more difficult ones, often no more than you do as a coach. And that's probably what leads to some of the breakdowns in communication relationships between those players. And it's like, as a coach, that should be vital ingredients for you to to know how you can get everyone better and get that player better. [PB6] So that's how I would do it.
Paul Barnett 26:31
Then in 2019, you publish that book I just mentioned seven, seven. It's a great read. And I've read about how when you were writing it, you thought it was a form of therapy for you that it enabled you to think about your core philosophy and how you had been shaped by your experiences. Could I ask you to share a little of that core philosophy?
Ben Ryan 26:50
Yeah, I mean, I think we've we've we've talked about it as some of this sounds really petty actually, like from me about what drove me. But when I was a kid, it sounds silly. But you're a kid that I had lots of weird kind of juxtapositions in my life, living next to a counsellor state and Brentford but in my junior school was up was a private school that had got a scholarship to go to. So all my people that lived around me were in the local comprehensive, and I was cycling out in this big bright green blazer with bright red hair. And so they thought I was this big push kid, which was couldn't be further from the truth. But that was that that was what they got. And then you know, I was, again, big ginger, it sounds sounds so small. But it was always felt that you were just not quite as good as everybody else. And you were the kind of the runt of the letter in a little way. And so you're trying to do things to negate that. And for me, that was being good at sport. And, and it continued like that, really, and remind reminded me that, you know, my core philosophy is not making people ever feel that they're the runt of the litter, or they're anything other than valued. And that, you know, they've got it, they've got to earn that value, as well as I have as a coach, and they have as, as an athlete, or co coach, or whoever, so that we can foster that environment. And I am a big believer that people should you have in the back your head you want, you want to walk into work with a spring in your step, you want people to do that as well. So good start point for creating a good environment.[PB7] And it's like, well, how can you do that? And how can you do it consistently? So my philosophies around that. And I think what sometimes people can miss read about me and about that philosophy is that they think, Oh, that's a bit fluffy. Sometimes you just got to tell people what it is and just lead and doesn't matter what they think. And you got to be tougher. In fact, well, all those things, you can be tough and can be ruthless, you know, and I made hard decisions. As coach of Fiji, I dropped one of our star players a week before the Olympic Games, because he broke, he broke our rules, and the consequences were you get dropped from the next tournament. And next trauma happens to be Olympics. But I was harsh on all of them. I train them harder, probably than I've trained any athletes, but you have those guardrails that you've put in place, and then you're rigorous about maintaining those and you don't allow great to seep in, because he's a star player. And, okay, I know he's broke our rules, but you know, we need him if you're clear about those things that's not fluffy. That's the exact opposite of it is very clear, and very black and white. And inside that environment. Yeah. And you allow people to be their own best version. Now remember, one of the guests you had on Tim Walsh, you know, is a new breed when I was there as the Australian gold medal winning female for the for the women's team. I loved him coaching him because he was curious, he would think about different ways to attack different things to do, I might have a move that I wanted to put in off or formation for a backline you might query it, we might change it. And that's about growth, right? And so that's not about being fluffy. That's not about me, allowing the players to run the organisation. It's about creating an environment where everybody can be aligned and working towards the greater good.
Paul Barnett 30:00
Can I ask you, you've still got many years left as a coach, let's say it's at least 20. What are going to be the future chapters in the next book, you're right.
Ben Ryan 30:10
I think when I left, Fiji, I needed I needed to write for personal and, and work reasons, really. And so I took all the advantages of being able to be in a position where you as Olympic gold medal winning coach, you get doors that are open for you. And if you can maximise those, and you can really learn and increase your breadth of knowledge. And I think I've got to a point now where I start, I got offered roles that were full time in pretty big clubs, and fifteens was always what I was originally going to be doing as a coach and sevens kind of just took me on this very cool journey for a few years. But now I'm like thinking maybe maybe my return to full time at some point, soon is what I'm after. And also, I don't want to, I don't want to be just a coach on in the middle of the field, I feel that my strengths now across across everything. So as a performance director running an organisation, helping to drive the the what the style of play on the field, but also the philosophy and the culture and create an embedding lasting framework and foundations, I look at some of the places now and I know that I would, there would be good fits for me and the opportunity will come and that principle of favourability, well, there'll be a phone call that will that will come up in a meeting that will lead me to my to the next job that that will probably take me on that next journey. I've got a long time left. I've got lots of things I would like to do. But yeah, I'm being fairly philosophical about them that I'll get that opportunity. And once I do, I think I'll be a success in whatever I do next.
Paul Barnett 31:40
And I'd like to finish by reading a quote to you, actually, and you've said, I want to make myself redundant. I want to be able to go to a big game, and go and sit and stand and have a beer with supporters. knowing everything is done. The team are aligned. They don't need the coach. Yeah, with this context, what's the legacy that you hope you leave for the many players you've coached?
Ben Ryan 32:04
Yeah, to understand that, when you create a good culture, then there'll be plenty of shiny things that you can look back at and go, Oh, that was good. That was good. But actually, to have a, an elevated culture, you've got players that will see you 1015 years later, that will talk about some of the tools they learned, that weren't the weren't those kind of fixed things, but more those softer skills, more those people skills, more those ideas around how you deal with relationships, how you encourage people to be better, how you maybe take risks on the field, guided by strong foundations of competency, those sort of things, [PB8] I think and so I get a lot I mean, I'm doing in a company, one of my companies, I want to I'm on a board with an X player who runs out that and I've set up another company or another x player, I mean quite a lot, often have conversations with a lot of people that I've worked with doing really well. And often that you get as much satisfaction out of that because you've helped them on their path. And you may be shone a light on some of the key virtues that are really important in sustaining success and getting the right culture. So I suppose that that's it rather than the medals and the titles and the shiny stuff.
Paul Barnett 33:20
Can I challenge you on that, Ben? Yeah, Fiji has a high incidence of diabetes. Yeah. And one of the things that you did when you took over that team was to change diet and fitness. And it worked amazingly well. I wonder if in 2030 years time, you will, indirectly the waves that you created, will live maybe listen to the diabetic rate, maybe lead to healthier eating as those players that you've touched, go out to society and take on leadership roles.
33:53
Yeah,
Ben Ryan 33:53
I think there was a in Fiji there was definitely a way of influencing the wider public quicker, because we had this vehicle that was the national team and so everybody knew everything about it. So yeah, the diet stuff. I agree that yeah, if I if I had a play that got injured and I needed to try to get him to see a consultant quickly are taken to the server to the hospital there would get an early because I know that on Monday mornings. The doctors all had a quick meeting before they then went on to the wards, did their rounds and that's when I could grab a doctor and have a chat with them about one of them and I'd hear these conversations that they were having in the hospital about another amputation for dire diabeetus and then they would go from they wouldn't have the someone would have nixed the cleaning staff so they would go from us as air into an amputation and won't be able to properly clean the the theatre and all these sort of things. And you've seen how the diet affected daily life. And so yeah, once once we got that that message across we had waited we did I remember the cameras did live on telly showing people how to cook breakfast and lunch. Dinner with the team and the players were all talking on telly about about the changes they've made to their diet, you can make changes like that. Yeah. And I wanted the 13 players ended up getting gold medals, being cultural architects to drive in good to share in that maybe somebody saw a Fijian on top of a podium and they thought, Well, if he's done it in sport, why can't I get my scholarship and become a doctor or a lawyer and go overseas and learning, all those sort of things. So I think I think that shouldn't be underestimated. In a country like Fiji. It's a very, I think, for me to say, all that that's a tiny part of starting that ball in motion, because you don't know what you don't know. And once someone's given a bit of information, then they can make that their own and they can drive their own behaviours. I'd love to see that. You know, and there's a couple of things that hopefully I can set up in the future and Fiji that is what are some of the projects in exactly that try to get them to think more about their their daily habits and their diet,
Paul Barnett 36:01
I think on the concept or the idea of of being a cultural architect. We'll leave it there because it's a wonderful way to end and I'd like to say thank you so much for your time today, Ben. It's amazing story. I can't wait to share it with a broader audience.
Ben Ryan 36:15
Thank you. Thank you very much.