Ep41_TamsinGreenway_Edit1
Fri, 4/2 10:39AM • 30:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, coach, netball, people, team, play, game, scotland, england, culture, wanted, year, emotions, losing, bit, sport, talking, world, learned, understand
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Tamsin Greenway
Paul Barnett 00:00
Tamsin Greenway. Good afternoon, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Tamsin Greenway 00:05
Thank you for having me.
Paul Barnett 00:06
We're very excited to talk a little bit in Apple. I have two daughters, and they are playing amongst themselves here in Prague because there's no League, but they do enjoy listening to the stories that the coaches have to tell. So thank you for joining us. Could I start with a really simple one? Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to today?
Tamsin Greenway 00:25
Yep, so I am in I'm in England, I'm in Sussex, currently in what is our third lockdown now in the UK in the last 12 months, which is just insane. So my days are slightly different at the moment, I did actually fly in from Scotland yesterday, I still be managing to work internationally, just because sport is still got the exemption and we're operating in bubbles. So I'm very lucky like that. But I've been tapping away at my computer, analysing looking after the kids, that kind of thing. But yeah, a very random time for us all in England, probably over the last 12 months.
Paul Barnett 00:57
Well, we're thankful for you to pull yourself away from your computer screen so you can spend more time on a computer screen talking to us. turns on I would like to start by just winding the clock back a little bit, actually. Because when I was researching and reading through your resume, you've had access to some great coaches. There's Jan Crabtree is Jess Roby. And of course, Lynn Gunson from this experience. What is it? You think that the great coaches do differently?
Tamsin Greenway 01:24
I think stand up from that was Lynn Gunson. And she, we used to call it the netball Oracle. And it's so weird how I chose to go to bath University when I was 18. purely for the netball programme. I didn't know much about liquid metal once or twice, scariest lady I'd ever met at the time. But it's amazing to think our relationship I ended up saying eight years of bass and training with her the whole time and how our relationship evolved and changed and we became really good friends. But we call it the netball Oracle because she just thought about the sport so differently. She single handedly changed the game of netball over here in England. If you look at some of the players that England ended up producing your GP mentors your you Pam cookies, you go on to the the newbies that that still in there, your Serena Guthrie's they've all had impact and influence from from Lynn. And she brought about this honesty that I don't think we've ever had in the country before. And it wasn't honesty in that you weren't good enough, it was you weren't good enough. But this is how you're going to get better. And she introduced a culture that we would never been through before.[P1] And it was tough. I mean, we used to laugh, because we laugh about it now. But she used to do a weekly meeting with the players that were at bat at the time, and you'd be going and going, I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry, I've done everything I need to do this week, I am on top of my game, I'm literally going to nail this meeting. And then you go in and she go, I heard your next door neighbor's cat died. And you just burst into tears. You know, she had this way about her that she could just pick at your emotions and want you to be a better person and a better player. But she also told you how to be. And it was straight talking a lot of the time and it wasn't easy. But she changed that whole aspect for us. And she made me see the game in a way that I'd never seen it before I actually saved some time she ruined the game for me because it was almost like, I never met anybody else that thought like her that I worked with again for such a long time. And so she was she was pretty special.
Paul Barnett 03:18
We're talking about pretty special and having Straight Talk. When you attend. I've read here that you went up to your mom and you said I know what I'm going to be ma'am. I'm going to be a netball player for England. Of course he did you went on to represent them 67 times. So I imagine when it comes to self belief, straight talk honesty, it's a large part of who you are. But for many athletes, it's not. And I wanted to ask you, have you found any ways that are better than others, helping people deal with self doubt.
Tamsin Greenway 03:48
It was funny when I was thinking about this i i guess i do have a lot of self belief. I hadn't really put myself in that bracket. But I think whether it's self belief, self determination, or just an idea of what I'm who I want to be, I've kind of always gone along that path. And I'm quite happy to talk about it. So that kind of stuff comes easy to me. That doesn't mean I've never doubted when I've gone out to court or we've played a game. Of course it haven't. And it's something that you recognise all the time with athletes. One of the things I've learned, especially through through my coaching is how everybody operates slightly differently there just because certain things have worked for me. You can't just help people to be you know, confidence, okay to be like this. It's alright to do that and just expect them to do it. I remember being at Ross and I brought in play called that Haythornthwaite, who had wanted to work through for ages and I'd have to beg it to come to me. And we talked about not only her performance loss, but getting into that angle squat and being the starting player and I was like, you're the best when attack England have got like you're gonna be this person. And she's such a sort of shy, lovely in a character. And I remember talking to her going right? I'm not on the call. I need you to be the cocky one, the one that's getting stuck in the one that's given the team's grief and doing this and doing that and we had a chat I'm going to give it a go. And she went out in the first quarter, and gave a bit of back chat to a defender. And I think she came off the court and she went, I didn't like that at all, I said something, they said something mean back. When right, we're gonna have to deal with this another way. And so it kind of it was lesson learned that when you're trying to build somebody up, it's got to be within their own personality. So for her, the connection with the team was what gave her the confidence, the high fives, the bomb taps the, the smiling, the, you know, this is good guys, it was that kind of thing that helped her believe that she was playing really well and doing a really good job. And so I've learned that across the board that everyone operates slightly differently. So you've got to figure out what it is that they're having self doubt about. And then you've got to make it work for them in their own way, which can be difficult at times, and honestly, tough for players, especially in certain positions, shooters, high pressure positions, it can be any trigger that something goes wrong, you know, missing a shot, losing a big game, people watching, it can be all kinds of things. But I think really delving into how that person ticks, is the first key to figuring out how you can help them with their confidence.[P2]
Paul Barnett 06:09
You were captain of the saree team. And you actually transitioned very quickly into this role. You became the coach, you were the captain, then you began to go to it all happened, seemingly overnight. And yet, in 2015 to 2016, you go straight on and win the championships. And so I wanted to ask you, what advice do you have for others on transitioning from being a team member into a leadership position?
Tamsin Greenway 06:30
Well, I have to accept that I was a bloody terrible coach start off with that first year, we made the finals. So I, I went in after my season play, no, the coach was leaving and said I can I can do this, don't hire another coach hire me, I can do it. And they weren't okay. And they took a massive point on me and I got the job I want underestimated was how difficult the player management side was. Because I'm quite breezy about stuff in terms of you just turn up when you try new play because you love it. I hadn't quite realised the ins and outs how players tick and the impact of me being mates with teammates. So then going into a changing room reading myself out on a team sheet. So I think that first year I do remember we made the grand final and we were drawing at halftime and I went in and my mental everybody were not playing well enough basically be better. Like what an awful speech, we went on, we lost by a couple of goals. I thought it was like the end of the world. But it was actually the turning point for me. And I realised then that a I had to control lots of things about me being a player and a coach, I had to be able to separate both. And the players needed time away from me, I couldn't be on their WhatsApp groups and be in with the huddles and do all this stuff if they didn't need to. And so each team, I've learned to really judge what the group need and how you're going to implement yourself into that. And just bring that honesty, because it is tough managing players emotions, when you're a certain way, and then stepping out onto the court with them as well. [P3] So that was probably the biggest, biggest part. And I've definitely learned on the job as we've gone along. And a lot of that came from the trust from the players that they trusted that I would put myself on when it was needed. I take myself off when it was needed. And I was my biggest critic. So although they were getting the hard times that points, they knew that I was also doing that to myself.
Paul Barnett 08:15
And was there someone that helped you and extract that learning and then adjust your behaviours?
Tamsin Greenway 08:22
No, I'm really quite self reflective, I've always been sort of taught to be to be honest with yourself, which I think that's where the belief comes in. Because if you are honest about things that you're good at, and not so good at and where you need to improve you, you can have that almost air of confidence. [P4] So there wasn't necessarily anybody that pointed out. I do remember after that first game sit after that Grand Final losing and all the team have gone and I sat there upset with the team hampster That was our that was our mascot, we have a team hamster in this change room just mean the hamster on my mom coming in and just go in. This doesn't define you. This is how you move forward. And this is what you've got to understand. She won't forget the emotion of losing, and do what you do best break down the game, understand the word understand what didn't move forward. And I think that was that was the biggest thing for me it was it was separating my emotion from what I was trying what I was trying to achieve. And I think it's hard doing it wrong. It's hard at times. But I think when you can start to control that a little bit more understand what the team need from you. And sort of gain that honesty, you can be a successful player coach. And I actually think it can be easier because you can almost influence when you're on the court, which for a lot of coaches, they've had that moment where they're sitting there going, I'm just I just don't know what I can do. And yet I've been in positions where I'm like, I know what I can do, I can put the trains on and get on the court. And so I think that can be easier at times, but only when you get to that point where you understand how the team ticks.
Paul Barnett 09:47
So in 2016, you take this learning, and you head off to wasps and you start up the franchise and then more successful is because you promptly guide them to two successive superlink titles. When you got to wasps, what were some of the first things you did that drove this result?
Tamsin Greenway 10:04
So the first thing I did was I wrote a dream list, which I've never been able to do before. I think it's really funny, because when you go on a journey, and when you get to success, people pick up at the successful point, they don't pick up at the journey that happened before. And I think what people forget is, you know, I took over a storm in 2012, I made three grand finals lost all of them before we won. And at that point, there were players that I'd asked to come and play for me that that wouldn't was an unknown coach, they knew me as a player that didn't quite want to leave. I didn't know what they were getting themselves into. It took time for me to gain that sort of respect as a coach, which is definitely what you mean, it's hard for any young coach starting out going yeah, yeah, come and play for me, you know. So I guess, when I got to watch for the first time ever, I could write a dream list of who are wanted. And several of those players were from sorry, storm and the conversations I had when I was leaving, sorry. So I've been really honest with them that were told way before the end of the season. And some of the key players were told as well, because it's a massive life decision for netballers. It's not just about you're not getting paid 1000s and 1000s of pounds. So who you play for and the culture you play for is really important. So I've had big conversations. And when I got to wasps, I was like, This is who I want. There was the key players from storm that I played with as a coach for years. And then there were little snippets and pockets of people I wanted to George Fisher, I wanted not Haythornthwaite, I wanted some may and I pretty much got everybody on my list. And that was the first thing. The second thing was to get everybody to buy in. So you know what, we're big on rugby. They've got this netball thing we wanted it not just to be for show. And the relationship I struck up with the CEO David Armstrong was just invaluable because he genuinely bought into the sport and bought into the game. And without him I just I just couldn't have done it. And I mean, we were going around looking at the density of sprung court floors, they're going to be what what does this floor need to look like outside? I don't know, that's Google it, like how they how they brought me in to do everything. So we quickly brought together this team of people I brought on Mel Mansfield, my assistant coach that I'd worked with yours before, because I wanted someone that I just loved and trusted. And she jumped at it. And yeah, and it kind of became as against the world. And I think that's how it felt right from the beginning, people were excited because it was something brand new, we were getting all the media people involved. And so we built up this little team of people on and off the court that just suddenly had this passion for netball. And it kind of just spiralled. I mean, it nearly killed me, it was the hardest year of my life, I had loads of stuff going on off the court in terms of family stuff. And it was draining. But it was well worth it at the end
Paul Barnett 12:39
to championships very, very difficult to get in anyone's career, particularly back to back in reading about you. in just about every interview, the word culture comes up. And you talk about it as being central to what you bring as a coach. But it doesn't necessarily break apart what the Some people use the word trademarks or the values or the elements of what a high performing culture is for you. So I'd like to ask you, if you could unpack it for us a little bit and tell us what's really central to it for you.
Tamsin Greenway 13:08
I remember getting asked this question in a very high profile interview for a job that I went for. And and when I gave the answer, it was just sort of well, but explain like what is it and I think anybody that's been in a good culture can't write down what a good culture is because you shouldn't be able to because it's constantly evolving. It's constantly changing. But you know what the time it's something special, you want to be there you want to buy in, even when you've had the worst day of the world, that's the place you want to be with the people you want to be given up the time, especially in that ball. So I was base, the culture for me starts around it being honest and truthful, and not in a lame way. But just the point where you can a Be yourself. And B people get to a point where they trust the truth that you're talking about, to the point where you can almost like it as well.[P5] I remember hearing an interview about Josie Marino once where they were going, you'd walk into change your mind half time, you'd be losing three nil and it'd be like, well, this is the plan, like this is what I wanted it to be we're losing three now. Because in the second half, we're gonna win for three like that's what we wanted to do today and people players would genuinely buy in. And I think if you can get to a culture where you are honest enough that everybody kind of gets where you're trying to go, even though they don't necessarily know how it works, it clicks. But you've got to have the right mix of people. And it takes time to get that trust from people as well.
Paul Barnett 14:39
No, it's it's a great answer. And I love the idea of description being it's where you want to be when you're having the worst day ever. It's I haven't heard anybody say that. But it's so true. I'd like to continue on this theme of culture though, because I've got this quote from you and I'd like to read it to you if I can and you say a winning team has the best team environment. different mixes of personalities. And people can really disrupt that quite quickly. So I wanted to follow that up and say, you know, when it comes to managing these disruptive influences within a team, have you found any methods that are more effective or better than others?
Tamsin Greenway 15:17
It's a very dangerous game, when you get someone disrupting your culture, because it can quickly escalate and take over. And especially when you're having periods of low points, which they're always after a season, they won't just go from here to here. And here, even if the results are happening, there's always stuff that's happening behind the scenes, whether it be injury or selections, or whatever it is. I think in the early days, I tried to please everybody, so I tried to take things on board and try and change it and adapted for certain people. I learned very quickly, that there's always people you can't please, and I'm not going to work in the environments in the way that you want. And the luxury I've had as I've gone along in my career is that you can start to wind that out, you can push to the side and and carry on with the group that you need to move them forward. And I think that's really genuine. Yeah, not everybody would like the style or the way that I play or work or, or act. And that's absolutely fine. Any successful thing in business, in music in sport, and whatever you're looking at it because a group of people come together that either challenge each other or on the same page are going in the right direction. So I don't think you can be you should be afraid of if people don't, don't fit into that kind of cultural environment to go, this is just not working. This is not how it's going to be. And I think I've definitely learned to do that rather than please everybody as we've gone along.[P6] And sport is quite a ruthless environment as well. And so I think, at the end of it, when you have disruption like that, being honest and upfront, and actually having those conversations is far better than trying to just changed things and tweak things for that individual. as the season progresses, I think it's kind of natural two or three years go by and the team, there's a natural turnover of players. And I don't hang on to anybody in a team or beg anybody to stay that I think is becoming disruptive, because actually, I think when it's got to that point, it can either filter through the team, or you can have that respectful conversation where it's going, it's not working for me, it's not working for you, let's go on and do bigger and better things on our own. And so that's kind of probably the way I deal with it more now. And when you have to deal with it upfront, I'm very direct on it. And this is kind of the way it's going to be because whenever you're in a team, there has to be a big picture. It can't just be about one individual, even if it's the best star player, it can't ever just be about that. And that doesn't mean I'm not understanding for real issues and real things. But I think once someone stops believing in where you're trying to go and what you're trying to do, you have to be able to move on from that for everybody's sake.[P7]
Paul Barnett 17:47
We're talking about the bigger picture. You've just taken on the job as head coach in Scotland in February this year. And when you had your first discussions with this new team, and you were setting this bigger picture vision, what messages Did you give those players? And what questions in turn, were you asking them?
Tamsin Greenway 18:05
So we had when we finally got together, we did a lot of online stuff. Before we finally had our first group meeting. We had a big chat about culture, about honesty about things we want to change where we wanted to go. And I asked them, I repeated my story of you know, I was 10 years old, I knew I wanted to play for England, what made them play for Scotland. And it was quite interesting, because it was there were some very different stories. There were a couple of players in there that desperately wanted to always play international netball. And there was a few players in there that just played because they were good. So I figured we'd spin it and go, Okay, so after our legacy after 10 years, when a lot of you guys are walking out of the door here and in Scotland, what do we want the next group of players to be sat here talking about? What legacy? Do you want to have left them? What does this look like for you? [P8] I'm passionate but realistic. I think there are massive improvements that can happen to all of those teams sitting between six and 12 in the world, because a lot of it is exposure, a lot of it is training environments, opportunities, which is very exciting. But at the same time the players have gone beyond that journey. They've got to decide what that looks like. And when they started talking, you know, they want it to be sitting there going well, this kid that's walking in the door now playing this or this playing because she watched me when she was 12 or 13 years old and said I want to do this. And so I think when you begin on a journey, it's it's so important to understand why the players are doing it, but also understand what you want to achieve along the way. And it's not always just winning or the end goal. There's got to be other pockets of it.[P9] And I think for Scotland and for thistles in this journey, it's it's not doing what they've always done. It's about Okay, well, I've asked them to think outside the box. I've asked them to jump on board with me. And I want to see where we can take them on what we can do but also what we can leave behind.
Paul Barnett 19:55
And what's your purpose. Tamsin? Where are you going on this new journey?
Tamsin Greenway 19:58
So when I stepped away from wasps. It was building up to the World Cup the air and on I wanted to work for sky and have a break really mentally, I was kind of done, I just won four back to back titles. I've been coaching a long time, I've been playing a long time. And I just needed that that timeout for me and my family. But there is nothing quite like the buzz of being around a team and being there on Match Day, you just don't get it anywhere else. And when you stop playing, the next best thing is coaching. And when you're not coaching, the next best thing is working the sky. I kind of looked at it. And when I need to do this, and I've always been honest about it, I went through the England job because that came up and who wouldn't want to coach with the country they played for. And Scotland gave me a call. And it was the right people right time. And that's important to me. The people I'm working with now the Claire Nelson's the Karen Atkinson's it's fun, I enjoy our zoom calls, and I enjoy what we're trying to achieve and how we're trying to change. Claire is an amazing CEO and sees the game the way I see it. And I think there's something special about that. So I'm a firm believer in things come around at the right time. And this certainly did for me. You're known
Paul Barnett 21:04
for your intricate knowledge of the game, but also the creativity you bring to the game style. And I wanted to ask you, where do you take your inspiration as a coach, when it comes to finding innovative ideas.
Tamsin Greenway 21:19
It's funny because I was I was reading something the other day and I'm like when is Tamsin green Megan without doing our analysis. She's like a mad scientist. And I was like, oh, cheers. And they're like, No, no, in a good way when you're there and you're in and I think sort of the last few years and then people have started to recognise that how passionate I am about the game. And that I guess that knowledge behind it in terms of power, read the game. The creativity comes in all different ways. I've always been involved involved in sport, always. So football at a young age. And I was I was being taken down to football games age six, when I could walk fast enough to keep up with my dad and brother I was allowed to go. So I used to walk quickly, which I still do now. And I played every sport under the sun had opportunities and Australia. I've travelled the world with netball. And I think and then there was obviously people like Lynn Gunson, I think she was probably the key to looking and talking about the game differently and being creative and what you delivered because nothing was ever the same. And and it was such an eye opener for me coming from a kind of bog standard netball background, which I loved, but to suddenly have this, this person and and you know, sometimes she'd just be black and she'd do something that just wasn't working. She wouldn't stop the session. She just like get on with it and go. But you just but you trust her and you just did it. And she kind of brought that beauty to it. What I look around at now is just other coaches and other coaches and other teams. So I love I love looking at when a football team is doing really badly and they sat there coach, and they bring in a new coach and you go out How did how's the same group of people playing so differently into somebody. And I am a Leicester supporter to watching that team in 2016 win the Premiership and change football incredible. And I actually think it highlighted so many other things it highlighted that you don't need the best players, you need the best mix of players you need. You needed the Danny Drinkwater to the Jamie Vardy, you you, you need a cantor, you needed marez. And actually individually in other teams, they're good, but together, they're great. And some of that is just fluke. And especially in football, it's pure fluke, I don't think people do it enough. I don't think they build the teams around what style they want to look for. And so I'm constantly looking for, for elements like that. Because it isn't just about who is the greatest, it's about how you get good people to become the greatest. And that is about the mix and how you bring it all together.
Paul Barnett 23:38
Tamsin, you have such a passion for nipple, and you're right, you are a bit of a mad scientist when you're doing analysis. But I have another great quote from you. And I'd like to read it to you actually, before I post the question, and you say, nipple is who I am. It's what I do in love. I have the full support of my family when it comes to taking on this role. I think it's incredibly important to show that you can do both. You can have a family, and also a career with aspirations and goals too. You don't have to choose. This was such a great quote really, really resonated with me. And I wanted to ask you, what advice do you have for other people, whether they're in a work team or a sporting team, or whatever it is on finding more balance in their life.
Tamsin Greenway 24:19
Without getting all all female on it? I think one of the biggest things women have to deal with is the kids thing to the career thing. And in sport is just blown up. Because unlike a male sporting athlete, you can't just you can carry on playing while your wife is pregnant. And that's all fine. For a female athlete. You have to stop at some point, there'll be a break in your career that has to stop. And I think what that triggered that response was from when my name was getting thrown around to the England job and a lot of people going, Oh, she can't she's pregnant. She's pregnant and I'm thinking Hang on a minute, my life doesn't stop because I have kids, I still have my own dreams and aspirations. And actually I want to show my seven year old that you can do both However flippantly saying those words isn't the same as actually acting them out. And it does take a toll on on your life and your family and where you are. So it's been, it's by no mean feat to have both and to share both. But it definitely can be done[P10] . And I think the biggest thing for me is making sure everybody's involved in the journey. And when you talk to athletes, and you talk to coaches, coaching can be one of the loneliest jobs in the world, if you let it. And when you're an athlete, you're incredibly selfish for such a long time. But I actually had a daughter and came back to play, I was one of the first people in the Super League to do it. And I wanted to show you could do it. And actually, my pre match routines change wasn't about me getting enough sleep and making sure I'd eaten the right food, I was at a place centre playing Dungeons and Dragons with my three year old before I was rushing down to the game, handing her over to someone who would look after her. So I could go down and warm up and play. And I could still perform and do it. It's not always been the easiest. But I think if you can let loose a little bit and understand that actually, if you can bring everybody into the mould, so it's not just about you, you can make it something really special. So people feel really part of it. That doesn't always help when you're ditching your kids and your fiance, and you're travelling up to Scotland again for the millionth time that year. But I think it's such an important part of making everybody involved in it. And being able to leave your emotions when you come in the door. That's something I've had to learn to do. When you lose my family don't have to deal with that. That's something that needs to be left at the courtside. And I need to come home and be the mom and the fiance and the normal Tamsin as well. So I've definitely learned to sort of, to mix it over the years and become a better person. I think for him.
Paul Barnett 26:38
He talked earlier actually about being too emotional, you know, too passionate with your team. And and now you're saying that you can leave those emotions at the door? Is there a routine? Or is it just a matter of flicking a switch, and it all happens?
Tamsin Greenway 26:51
It's definitely come with experience, losing used to be the worst thing in the world. And also a bit of an ego thing, I guess, as well, you know, when you put yourself out there, to accept that you want to win and that you you, you think your team are good enough. And you think this and you think that you also get the backlash that comes with that, because then people want to beat you. So it became quite personal for me, I think I realised quickly that I should, it's probably a good thing in many ways if you can get over that. And so I've learned to definitely enjoy the wins a lot more, which is again, something I didn't do, it was like on to the next thing on to the next thing, and to soak up the losses. And it's tough sometimes. But I think it can only come really with experience with understanding. And I think, without sounding so lame on it, kids bring that different dimension, my two year old, didn't give a flying whatever, when she first saw me lose a final, you know what she wanted to do play with the confetti that had been shot over the other team. That's what she wanted to do. And so I had to accept that. And also becoming a player, coach, maybe control those emotions a lot more. Because, you know, when I've got my team upset or gutted about something, they don't need to see me do that as well. They need me to be the one that goes to school because you know what, we're going to work harder we're going to analyse, we're going to do it, and next year, we're gonna come back and win. And I think that's what happened at storm, we lost so many that by the time we won, it felt like it was meant to be, it kind of made it even more special. And I think that's where my emotions have definitely harnessed. Again, not always easy. And sometimes I had to take some time out a little bit before I come back. But when I'm back, I'm back to me.
Paul Barnett 28:20
Tamsin, you're still a very young coach. We weren't getting to age, we wouldn't do that on. That'd be impolite of me. You've got many, many years ahead of you. But you've also already had so much success in multiple teams. And you're right, he did have a season in Australia as well. So I'd like to ask you, we talked about legacy earlier. And I'd like to ask you, what's the legacy you think you've left so far, as a coach?
Tamsin Greenway 28:44
I think for people that have kind of followed and been on the journey, it's been more about the fact that you can do it. I wasn't a coach, I kind of told everybody I could be a coach. And I've never followed the pathways. You know, I've never been that person that's done it by the book or been expected to do it. I've always been a bit Marmite, as a player and a coach, you either love or hate the way that I do things. And I think and, you know, I carved out my career as a player, I carved out my career as a coach, and then I carved out my career in sky. And I think for those that have understood it and got it and seen where it's gone, I think it's almost a little bit of hope that you can do these things, you can achieve it and you can have some fun along the way doing it as well[P11] . And I think the legacy from the players, I guess, would would hopefully I'd hate to say the creativity, the difference in that every session has mattered and given apart time, like I said, it's the place you want to be even on the bad days. And I think we've created some really special environments in the way and I've made lifelong friends to it. So I'd hope I'd hope that majority of the players I've worked with that would be that would be where they see it.
Paul Barnett 29:51
terms of thank you so much for your time today. It's been great chatting to you wish you all the best with Team Scotland unless you playing against us. Radio
Tamsin Greenway 30:02
Thank you