Ep45 Heyneke Meyer
Thu, 4/29 8:31AM • 37:20
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, people, leader, players, pressure, world, team, vision, setbacks, fight, book, dreams, bumblebee, day, game, rugby, won, tough, successful, sonny liston
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Heyneke Meyer
Paul Barnett 00:00
Honey, come on. Good morning and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Heyneke Meyer 00:04
Now, thank you very much a little bit JT, it's a big honor to be on your podcast.
Paul Barnett 00:07
We I love chatting a bit of rugby with my friend Jim. So we're keen to talk to you today. But something really simple to begin Henniker. Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?
Heyneke Meyer 00:19
I've just stopped coaching in France, and then decided to take a sabbatical. COVID didn't help out if you offer overseas. But it's been good for me, I always believe in the positive, you always have to get something positive out of life. So I spend a lot of time with my family, which I haven't had the opportunity through through the years. It's been actually great. Just having time and I wrote a book, I always wanted to make a difference. That's my coach. So I wrote a book, which is about life lessons. And it's about making sales books done really, really well based on in South Africa. And I just always wanted the guys to make a difference. You know, that's, that's why I've coach and I think that's, that's a secret probably of the of the bass coaches in the world. It's not about you. It's about going out there and making a difference.
Paul Barnett 00:59
Well, that is winging its way to me here in Prague as we speak. So I'll be looking forward to reading it when it comes. But Haney Come on. Thank
Heyneke Meyer 01:07
you very much.
Paul Barnett 01:08
I might start actually by just going back over some of the great coaches that you've had firsthand experience with Phil Pretorius. Alan Solomon's, of course, rassie, Erasmus. So I wanted to start by asking, What is it you think the great coaches do differently?
Heyneke Meyer 01:24
I think the question I've always asked if I work with young coaches, I always ask is rugby Is it a sign, so is it the art, and most of the guys will tell you, it's probably a science if they especially if they're more technical. And some of the guys especially the older coaches, which I respected philosopher, casual sides, art. But I believe that racket is both a science and an art, you can be technical, very stupid, and you can be great on the technical side, but not good on the human side. And at the end of the day, you work with humans, that's the most important thing. So what I've learned, and what I've learned from the great coaches, and I'm still learning is that I think the guys that that really makes a difference is that guys that can get the balance between the art and the science of it. If you ever technical and you're not good with people, you're never going to be successful. In long run, you'll have short stints, especially probably world caps, we just have a team for six, seven weeks. But if you look at the top coaches that's been successful over the years, especially one team, because that gets more difficult because you work with them every day, you have to find the art, because you work with people, and you have to know what takes you know, what makes people tick[PB1] . So I did study and research all my players, I did test on them, I did all different types of brain tests, there is a thing in coaching that I say you have to be, you have to keep do the same things with every single player and treat them the same. And I don't believe in that. Some guys, you need to push some guys, you need to stand back and just leave them. Some guys like motivational stories. Some guys just you just leave him at halftime. So I did a lot of research about human behavior. And I think the great coaches know what buttons to take. And like I say, to combine the science and science and the art. And that's coaching, you know, you can't tell people what to do. Sometimes you have to set the example. And sometimes you need to force them and sometimes, you know, just to stand back. So I just think it's the end it's I think more to think it's an art, and which button to push. And I think you need to be humble because you don't know everything, and you only as good as your assistance. In my book in the last chapter I say you look at the Lone Ranger was the lone It was one of my favorite characters. When I was a kid. Tarzan wasn't alone. And the guy liked it when delivery was the first guy to climb Mount Everest, but 10s I know I was with him all the way in the early God period. Right. So I think the great coaches know the weaknesses. And he only as good as your management team and leadership players, not one coach as good that can make such a big difference. [PB2] Were you the Lone Ranger, you have to have quality people and you have to have quality leaders in your team and you have to have unfortunate quality team. But again, for me, the biggest thing is coach that definitely makes a difference in when a lot of trophies, that trophy such as a piece of turn around spectators and the guys that follows it don't think so. But as a coach, I truly believe the great coaches have made a difference in some way if uniting the country or just making a difference in people's lives. And I think that's the great coaches you need to serve, serve and it's serving leadership. I think that's the big difference. And players know that they know if you're in a for yourself. And now if you want the limelight, I believe a coach needs to be out of the limelight. I don't like being in a shot when we won trophies because it's about the players you need to serve. And then if you see a lot of great players, they struggle to make it as a coach, because everything has been done for them diverse center of attraction, suddenly real coach I have to give. And a lot of players can't make that distinction. And if you look at all of the great coaches which I respect and touch against, most of them will come from a teaching background because they deserve it certain leadership, a lot of them will go to the amateur days way. We just did it for the love of it. So you have to embrace enjoy what you're doing and the players will feel that and you have to be able to inspire people I think it's very important to inspire people. That's maybe the difficulty. And I usually say the coach is that you're the leader and you're the light switch. The most difficult thing for me was after loss the players for the back of the leader so You have to get him back. You have to pick up your chin and you have to when you go in there you the light switch. If the player sees you positive, you're going to fight back for one more round, they will they will follow. So you have to be a great leader as well.[PB3] I
Paul Barnett 05:10
believe he studied psychology University, based on the experience you have now. What do you wish they would have taught you at university?
Heyneke Meyer 05:19
You know, not just university I always wanted to be and I don't like talking about myself more that my teams, I stood up as a youngster and said, I want to I want to go to my country. They said, You must tell him what you want to do one day. And I said, when I married my wife, which was the prettiest girl in the school, and they laughed probably more than being the Springbok coach, when I said I want to marry my wife. So I think people we say used to school and university, are they stealing your dreams. And wherever I've gone school, they told me you're crazy. I was in the wrong school. And I say this, with all due respect to help people out there. And so they always told me Listen, you're crazy. You'll never make it. When I went to university. They told me that China can stop worrying about rugby, it was amateur then. And they said rugby won't bring anyway focus on your studies. But I just made two more years on university just I was involved with the rugby team, little national team and I was involved with the University on the university management side. And I learned a lot about management, just to be north of rugby, and I say this correctly, will bring you nowhere, focus on your studies. So I was inducted lightly in the hall of fame of university. And my opening speech was Listen, you told me he's gonna bring me No way. Now I'm back at university. And I'm not here for academics Definitely not. So I think we all have in my life, the thing that I would teach the children out there is that people always steal your dreams and no dream is big enough. I mean, if you look like Elon Musk now and put a rocket on Mars, people laughed at him. And all those guys now the scientists we shared was impossible or working for him. Neil Armstrong, first God had been to was the first guy to go up on the moon. I mean, people say set realistic goals. But I mean, what's what's more unrealistic than saying you want to go to the moon. So I'm a big believer and I write it in my book as well for especially for the kids out they you can be whatever you want to be so easily Actually, he was just have to have a plan. [PB4] And I mentioned seven steps in my book to get there. And I was from the wrong school the wrong I didn't play rugby, I was very average. And in South Africa, Africa to the highest level, if you want to be you have to be prepasted diversity, or those nice general in the army, or you have to be an extreme, and I was no way. And I want to tell the story, not just telling how great I am. I'll tell the story just to tell you all anything is possible. In 1995. I was a schoolboy coach, and reckless amateur in. And it just unprofessional, there was an insurance company called sunlamp. In South Africa, I went around, and you can pay like, I don't know, remember the amount, and you can pay me You can go to the 99 World Cup. And I didn't have money as a teacher they studied for to teach for two years, just just to be in volved in rugby, and just to see how it goes and to help me with the presentation skills. So 95 likes the world gap rapid and professional. As I say to my friend, I'm going to be that World Cup. But I didn't have the money to pay that insurance policy. I said that I don't care. I'm going to be there. So four years later from being a schoolboy coach. I was 32 years old. I was Nick managed sports coach at that World Cup and most of the players were older than me. So I'm not telling you this to try and say how great I am. I'm telling you this wrong school. Everybody University told me Iraq is gonna bring you nowhere. I went to whoever they told me rec is going to bring in no way. But you can't let people steal your dreams. And that's why I'm going to teach young people out there. Now there's a lot of youngsters listening to you Everything is possible and surround you with people that will support you. There's always five people that tell you why you can't like it. I'd rather stick with one guy Tell me why I can make it. And I say to my players and to young coaches. It's like the bumblebee. We had a ward of the Springboks and all my teams, I call it the bumblebee award. And that's the person that does the most for the team, not the gods because the base drive but the god that's something for the DNA of culture in a plane of injury or playing out of position or whatsoever. And the reason it's called the bumblebee is because the bumblebee is scientifically impossible for the bumblebee to fly. They say his body's too big, his wings is too small. And the bumblebee can fly at heights where people can't get oxygen every night when the bumblebee is flying because nobody told the bumblebee is impossible. So what I wish to school at any university and whether is that people will follow kids to follow their dreams or not tell them what they can do it.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 09:18
I've heard you talk about the importance of enjoying what you do. But also that pressure can be a positive thing if it strengthens you. So I wanted to ask what are the other values that as central to your coaching philosophy?
Heyneke Meyer 09:33
I like stories like you've seen so people remember stories, but I read about Andrew Carnegie in the 1950s yet 100 millionaires in those days working for him. And I asked him What's the secret of your success and he said, You know what, people like the mining industry, he was a steel magnate and he was in the mining industry. And he said people are the mining industry. You can take layers and layers and layers of people. And somewhere in there you will get a gold nugget. sign is mining and take layers and layers. Laser gravel and dirt and that and you get it get a gold nugget. And if you can nurture that you'll be successful. So my coaching philosophy is I was an army and I was a beta instructor, just after I've studied, we had to go to the army. And a lot of the younger guys, I was a little older, or the younger guys, at 19 years old, I was 2324, a little bit more mature. But I couldn't wait to get into the new recruits and kill them and just let them run. And one of the generals said something that always resonated with me. And I always remember he said, You know what, you're working with somebody else's kid. And those days, we were young. But then later on, I had three boys. So my coaching philosophies is very simple. Players are not always going to love you, they're not always going to like you, obviously, the guys you pick is going to like you more. But my coaching philosophy is more that you have to handle players the way you want people to handle your peace.[PB6] I'm very close to my boys, and I want them I want people to be hard on them, but honest, I want them to look after the medically look after the health then paste them into situations, they're not really ready jkm of steroids and things that can all can on them lighter. So I've met a lot of mistakes. As a coach, you make a lot of mistakes and you learn. But one thing I can look in the mirror, I've always handled players the way that I want somebody to handle my kids. And sometimes players will cross the beside and push them into games early whenever I thought I'm going to get injured. And sometimes I dropped them just to get them back on track. But I think that you have to have a coaching philosophy as a young coach and as a leader. Because if you stand for nothing, you're gonna fall for everything[PB7] . It's a very simple philosophy for me, but I believe in that and I remember just before the World Cup when john de Villiers Tony's knee for the fourth time, I actually cried with him, because my son attorney ops just before that, and only a parent now what it takes to take him to hospital to take him to physio, his dream was gone for playing for his school and for his province. So you have to have a philosophy and my philosophy is simple. You know, you have to treat bias, the same as you want to be treated, and you have to love what you do. It's not usually coaching you don't love it, because that is the job, right? We shouldn't be a job coach in amateur days, just because enjoy it. And I want to make a difference. Like the needy said, People really nice, okay. They don't lie for the country, they don't like for the jersey, we always say they play for the jersey, they pay for the coach. And if they know you care about them, they'll put their bodies on the line, they know early in the year for yourself and for the limelight and for grace, sooner or later, they're gonna they're gonna catch you out and you will be successful. So you have to serve. And that's what I believe in, you have to really serve and help people to make their dreams come true.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 12:24
like to just go back a little bit too early in your coaching career, you talked about going very quickly to helping out the Springboks. But you actually started head coaching in 1988, and 10 years later, you're coaching in the South African National Competition, the carry cup. But what's interesting is that in 2000, you go on this incredible run with the blue balls, in your seven years with him, you win the national championship four times. I wanted to ask, how did you keep that team motivated and moving forward without a sense of entitlement?
Heyneke Meyer 12:57
Yeah, first of all, I could say 95, I was a schoolboy coach and 99. That was actually too quickly I was I was a national coach, assistant coach, one of the best coaches ever for Nick mallet. And Solomon's was the assistant. So I've been I've been around, I think the most important thing is to have a vision for the team. And the bigger the vision, the bigger the energy, you have to have a vision that inspires people. And I always say to the Young Turks, I like working with young coaches, it's like a magnifying glass. If I take a magnifying glass, and I don't have an exact exact same vision, there's no energy. Now we play this style, we do this style, we want to we stand for this, this is our culture, and you change every second day, you begin to sit, sit, sit vision, written in stone, so everybody knows exactly what you have. But I want to achieve and everybody's focus in the same same direction. You focus with a magnifying glass, you put it on one spot, everybody's focus, you have enough energy to start a fire that can destroy that, you know, everything [PB9] that the difficulty of coaching is, I always say this to young coaches that if you look at human behavior, and nowadays at school, we took photos and two weeks later, you get the photo back. And then you can say if you want to buy it or not. The first person you look at when you get the photos back is yourself. I know that's true, but with most of the people I know that's true. Secondly, you look at the most beautiful girl in the class. And then thirdly, you look at your friends. So what I'm trying to get to is the difficulty of coaching is you have to be able to unite the team behind your vision. But I have to buy that as to to link in with a vision. So I think I was quite good. I got young players in that nobody else wanted. Nobody actually rated them because the boost lost every single game so nobody wanted to come to the booth. So I was good selling my vision. And then let the players buy into my vision and I know if they buy into the team's vision, they're always going to be successful and I was fortunate enough to catch guys like Brian about a buck is good Victor Matfield. And a lot of these guys went first shows that they unions and nobody wanted them and I became superstars. So the other thing that's very More than once the behind the vision is work ethic, you have to have a work ethic you look at guys like Mona Stein, when I recruited him, he didn't even kick first choice kicker for his school. And I got Jonny Wilkinson Skitch kicking coach they've already been, which is brilliant. I remember when Mona Was it 19 went on to an image like Apex right in front of the goal, he was never even a kicker. And they now you know, against the British or Irish Lions in the previous ones in Africa, pick the winning girl, and he's one of the best speakers in the world. So you have to have work ethic. But if the vision is not big enough, guys won't work. And in the culture, I believe that nobody is bigger than the team. And I have to buy into the vision. And if they get complacent, they know the answers will come in, you can't stick with the same team. If they not they get complacent, they know you'll pick somebody else. And I think the biggest thing as a leader, and this is very important. I think as a leader and a coach, you have to set the example. And it's all about standards we ever made mistakes was when I dropped my standards. And I always tell this to coaches that it's like the flea circus if you take the flea circus, it's like more tongue in cheek, but you have this bottle and you go they and and the little fleas will jump up and down. But they won't even if the bottle is open, they won't jump out. If you ask the trainer isn't it's impossible, why didn't the fleet jump out? He says it's quite quite simple. When they small, you close the loop, and they jump and they jump and they jump and they bandaids. And then later you take off the lid. And they're not going to jump out because that's the standard. So I think from complacency as a leader, you have to raise the ball. And if a guy can shoot once in a session, that's going to be a habit. And when I make mistakes, I didn't get involved. And I didn't at that moment, change the behavior because once it becomes a behavior, it's not gonna change, it's gonna happen to the games as well. But I think the vision is, is big enough. You don't have to push people the vision to people. And they wanted to be the best team in the world. That was our vision. And everybody loved the best. We lost 11 out of 11, the first year I was fired came back. Same vision hasn't changed. And when we won the Super Rugby in 2007, nine and 10 I think that team and it's not means the team was the best team in the world. So people will laugh at you. But if the vision is there, you have work ethic. You believe in your vision, you enjoy what you're doing, you're gonna have setbacks, definitely, I'm big on mental toughness, and then you and then the last thing is you can't do it alone. And that's the seven steps in my book, you will be successful.
Paul Barnett 17:21
Tell us about those steps.
Heyneke Meyer 17:24
Yeah, if it's very simplistic, and I want to write a very simplistic book, the first thing I said was you have to have a vision, everything started to meet the vision. And you know, 97% of people don't write down the vision 3% of people in the world and done this in America research 3% write down their vision, and that 3% and more than the 97% put together. So you have to write it down. Because when the pressure comes on, you change every week. So just about vision, I can ever talk with you about a vision and let's be big enough, like I wanted to coach my country a lot, then you have to believe in your vision[PB10] . Okay, so I told him about when we had to be derailed by an Eddie Jones curriculum. He's a brilliant coach, we had to beat him by 76 points, which is impossible. And now we broke it down and we beat him 93 which is still a record but everybody said it's impossible. So you have to believe in your vision because if you don't believe in your vision, it's not usually do it. The third thing is that which I believe you have to have the willpower because and they are used the pain and pleasure principle. So say for example, you don't change your habit. It's very difficult to change your habit. So say I love hamburgers. If I say hamburgers is great, and it's so seen it's really enjoy it. I'm never going to change that habit. But if I see it, listen is going to I'm going to get pain. It's going to bloat me, I'm going to get a heart attack, if I'm overweight, not going to see my grand children, then it's gonna I'm gonna associate that with pain. And that's why especially for young coaches, I never ever ever, if a guy with fitness vanishes, I will fitness was in fitness for them is a punishment. They need to see fitness as a pleasure which greater the fitness we get to win games in the last minute, they will do fitness, I never punish your fitness.[PB11] The fourth thing I believed in his work ethic, you only have to work and that's that team that was so successful. You have to work off a day, you can decide if it's the first 12 hours or the next 12 hours because we don't work and somebody else is going to work and they're going to beat you. And then the third thing is is mental toughness and another equation coming on very big on mental toughness. Mental Toughness for me is like go or Jocko. That doesn't mean anything. You can buy it for next to nothing. It doesn't mean anything. But if you put it and the pressure for years and years and years and years and millions of years to get diamonds, so I like players that can handle the pressure but once they're under pressure, they sound like diamonds so you're going to get setbacks, especially now COVID every successful person is going to have setbacks. I was fired a few times I've lost 11 out of 11 a lot of lows, but you have to come back and fight one more round and then point six jafta enjoy what you're doing. If you don't enjoy what you're doing, you'll never be successful. So I really believe that coaching for me wasn't a job. I would I would go in at five and stay there too late. Because I really enjoy what I did, and I enjoy people. And then the last thing, like I said, you can't do it alone, there's no overnight success with people that aren't alone, you need people around you. And it's about teamwork, even as your parents taking you to practice or when you injured. And I had brilliant assistants, and brilliant people backing me said, very simplistic points that work for me. And I felt a lot of people it worked for them as well. It's simplistic stuff we don't get right as leaders. If you just take people, we look at tables and chairs and things, and that's on our financial statement. That's the asset. But that's not acid
20:33
people is
Heyneke Meyer 20:34
on the financial side, that people is a liability because you have to pay them, but it should be different people should be your asset. And as a leader, like I said, if you care about people, it will come back. And leaders liketo ryzen, we managers look at the bottom line. So we need more leaders, I think in the world, and every single guy out there is a leader, we always think leaders are the successful people now leaders, if you look the Kennedys they matter, raise them. And she thought you make a difference in the world by rising leaders, she was a leader. So the normal guy out in the street is a leader in his own community or his own household, and we need more people like that[PB12] . So I'm very big on leadership. And I think everybody in one stage is a leader, that you have to eat for people, and you have to make a difference in people's lives.
Paul Barnett 21:16
And in 2012, you were named the South African National coach, he led the team to the 2015 Rugby World Cup, in the opening game of the competition you lose to Japan. After the game, you make a public apology, and I've watched it. And when I look at it, I see someone who is carrying the weight of the nation on their shoulders. And I wanted to talk to you about expectations. And now when you talk to other coaches, about dealing with the pressure of expectation, what do you say to them?
Heyneke Meyer 21:46
If I might tell you a story, I'm going to tell this and then I'm going to go to the Japan game because everybody asked me about that game. I've altered that hundreds of times. But the pressures like this, and it's a mindset, I always tell the story to my young players, when I go out there and play the first game, I tell them this story. And it's probably a well known story. So apologies of if you're that before, but a little kid came to his father and said, Listen, you've got pressure at school, it doesn't fit in a struggling, you can use any example. So the following and I've done this with my teams, I've done it really as a as a coaching method. And as a as a team to work with my team, especially youngsters over for young team to take three losses with boiling water. The first one you put in a carrot, the second one you put in the egg, and the third one you put in coffee beans, and then you ask the kids Listen, what happens or the team. And the first thing is, carrot goes in, it's very tough. After a few hours in boiling water goes soft. It goes in it's soft of the gas, it goes tough, and coffee, nice coffee. So then you asked him, What do they see. And this is by example to young players or young coaches. So I always say I don't players were they were hot. I mean, again, the pressure, they get soft. A lot of players are competing, if they're tough, and they might end the night at night. And they have the appearance of being tough, which is not true. But they go soft, and the pressure, which is the boiling water. Secondly, you get guys at soft, but once the pressure comes to them, they got tough, they got like a leg. And the third thing, which I think is important for coaches who enter is that the first instance is the hot water, which is the pressure, change the carrot and change the egg. But the coffee is different that it uses the old water and it became coffee didn't change, when guys have a great aroma. And it's great to drink made a huge difference. So what I'm trying to say is you have to embrace the pressure. So don't let the pressure gauge the dam get hot and give away penalties get dental soft and doesn't apply, you have to embrace the pressure. That's why I've been coaching. And that's how I've been training for so long. So always young players, I say don't feel the pressure, you have to be like the coffee, you change the pressure to the way you wanted, embrace the pressure. you've trained so hard to be here today, God enjoy it. Because a lot of kids will give whatever to play in front of 50,000 people and to be cheered on and get the ball in their hands. And that was the dreams. So for young coaches and they and people and the pressure, you have to embrace pressure, because what's the use of not being under pressure, then you can just coach at the end, you can play against teams where you win every single game by 100 points. There's no challenge in that. So you have to be challenged to grow. So I like to embrace the pressure and there's nothing I battle against a lot of countries on my teams and they for me, it was nothing more. I never felt more alive than fighting the archive. And I've lost a lot of those games. But for me, it was unbelievable. So that's why I said you have to enjoy what you're doing. Embrace the pressure. And that's why you coach, if you can't handle the pressure, then you're gonna go soft or hard and you're not gonna you're not gonna last so you have to have a mindset change and the more pressure you have to enjoy it.[PB13] That's why that's why we coach you there's no pressure in your life. You stand up every day just a happy go lucky. You will never you never grow as a person and Japan especially, maybe example or give advice to other coaches. The biggest mistake I made First of all, as a leader take full responsibility, even if it's not your fault, because you're the leader. And then secondly, all the biggest mistakes I've made as a leader as a coach, besides where I didn't trust my gut, when you don't trust your gut, because you've gone through so many places where you were or incidents where you were successful, and the Lord weighed on success, and you learn from that, and then you get into the situation, and you listen to other people, and then trust your gut. And that was, if I look at my old career, even as a young coach, you know, as a leader, what's right and wrong, you know, what's gonna work and then you listen to other people, and instead, stay authentic leadership. Don't try to be somebody else. Everybody's different. You get soft spoken guys, like Steve Anson doesn't show emotion. I'm crazy. I go ballistic, which I don't believe is right, because people shouldn't focus on me. I should focus on the team. I don't like that. And I'll talk about that later. I believe you have, you should be out of the limelight. And when it happened was at Loftus, I had one way mirror people couldn't see me. And I was always scared that the Springboks, they will see our price I go, because I used to coach from an early age understands this almost like a soccer coach. And they passionate, and they replied to Australia. And usually when a camera is this side, I was sitting on the other side the day before you do like a team ran captain's run. And then I was it the opposite side. But that day when we've never beat Australia in Brisbane Bay, difficult to beat in David's got four tries. And first time we won this, I went ballistic. But I didn't realize the cameras in the ceiling. I didn't see the small cameras in the ceiling. And they showed me and my wife said listen, you're in front of all the newspapers, you ain't crazy. And I felt so embarrassed. And then a lot of New Zealanders guys will be like your passion. So I believe that it shouldn't be on me It should be on the team. But again, you shouldn't follow anyone as a leader. Every single guy is different in his different different ways of leadership, it very guidance outspoken soft, guys, it's all about example, but stay true to yourself. And the mistakes I made is when I'm not true to myself, and don't trust my intuition. And that Japan game, I'm very proud. It came gamble, it learned me a big life lesson. And we came back and lost by two points against the base, all black team error. And that team went on, they said you can't win a World Cup. If you lose one game, that loss against New Zealand in the 99 World Cup. Most of those kids play the previous one when they were young. They've learned from that and won the World Cup after they've lost against New Zealand. So for me, there's no obviously you carried in the hopes of the nation. And I apologize for that. And I think you must do that as a leader because most guys don't take responsibility, especially politicians. But you have to learn from that and move on. And I was very proud of the way we fought back. And that's life patient discover times you have to go in and fight one more round like a boxer and keep on fighting. And that's
Paul Barnett 27:36
life. And I love looking at the video and the footage of your emotions. I think it's a no, Hi,
Heyneke Meyer 27:43
I'm good. I embarrassed I probably I get embarrassed by that. Like I said, I don't believe it should focus on me. But I just enjoy what I do so much. And I get so involved in the game and the players and it's crazy. But yeah, that's that's who I am. And like I get embarrassed. I don't think they should teach it to me, they should inform the team,
Paul Barnett 28:00
when you talked about your three songs in the opening. And your career has had some soaring highs and also some lows. But through it all. You're always animated. You're always emotionally engaged with the team. And I think that emotional engagement is so much at the heart of your coaching style. But what I wanted to ask you was when you speak to your three sons about dealing with the highs and lows of leadership, what advice do you give them?
Heyneke Meyer 28:28
Are they proud of my boys, and they're all different? Totally, totally different than it's strange, because it's more or less the same upbringing, and the same values, but a totally different. So leadership for me is people will learn remember what you're saying, but I remember how did you say it.[PB14] And first thing I tried to teach my boys they have to be authentic to themselves, which I just said, and I actually wrote the book for them. So all seven principles is part of your life, you are going to get setbacks, you have to have a work ethic, all these things I mentioned. But like I said, for leaders, you have to you have to be true to yourself and like totally different. I believe you have to be humble. And because the end of the day, I've seen in COVID now as well. I had COVID and my son and my wife had COVID I've just seen again, all the other things is not important. If you really take everything away and cut back to the bone and like like almost like finding the nugget. At the end of the day. A lot of people are so poor. All they have is money. And I've made the richest people in the world. And it was so sad. Sometimes a lot of these people have no friends, their family doesn't want to see them. They keep that written they move and they reach and people think they're successful. And don't get me wrong this way. Great, successful people. That's very rich. I'm not saying it's wrong to be rich, I'm just saying is what I've learned again in COVID is at the end, the only thing that counts is your relationships, your relationship, your family, your relationship with whoever your friends, because COVID just showed us again, all the other things you only hear for short time, and you only live once but if you play it right once it's once it's enough so for my PG era I want to go out there and make a difference and serving leadership I believe we need more serving leadership[PB15] . And especially now with you know, with with, I'm amazed. I've never been on Instagram and Facebook because obviously I want to get out of the media I never want to get in the media. Now my census showed me in a staffer my son's because if you lose a game, everybody's single key there now climbs into them. It's very tough on your family. And I just say to them, Listen, stay true to yourself, the people always wrong. People that criticize and whatever, you have to be true to yourself, and especially for the youngsters, kids out there. They look at how many likes they get and feel embarrassed, they don't have likes, and that's a wrong. At the end of the day, you have to be true to yourself, not it's not about other people, if you live close to your values, what you like to do in life, don't worry what other people say. Because if you look at most of the people, if you look at Einstein, which was a genius, he actually didn't went to school, and they sent him home. And they wrote a letter to his mother. This is a true story that I wrote and met and said, Listen, he will never adapt at school. This guy's not clever enough. And when he died, he actually saw the letter. And he couldn't believe his mother told him listen, they say you too clever. You can't shouldn't stay in school, you must homeschool because you're the devil you don't fit in. So for me, it's I truly believe it's me. So it's a sad so many people with so much talent out there. But they don't follow their dreams. And I was the same because my youngest son wanted to do different things he wants to he wants to do financial services, and he wants to box and all these strange things. And I say to my crazy and then I realized I know you write in your book, don't steal somebody else's dream because everybody wants to tell me why I shouldn't coach and I've done exactly the same. So truly This ship is really if you can inspire people to follow their dreams, be themselves be authentic. You're going to get setbacks, but work through that everybody gets setbacks. I think that's really the ship so my boys I just want to be happy. enjoy what you do and always find one more round and why say fight one more round. I write this in the book is that I watched your interview with Muhammad Ali, actually a fight against Sonny Liston and nobody gave all your John's he was a young fight and Sonny Liston was the animal. He was an unbelievable he was unbelievable fighter was in jail. People thought this guy's invincible. So Ali told the whole world obviously being Ali, you know, I'm going to be this guy. And then in the first round, all he wanted to quit because the Sonny Liston camp would wintergreen which is dp on the on the glass and it's all in the eye and he couldn't see. And he wanted to quit because this is unfair play and he couldn't see in order to show the world This is unfair, but he would lost the belt. So Angela dandies trying to push them in and say God didn't fight one morale didn't quit at a great first round. And in the sixth round, you had a great sixth round in the seventh round. That imaginable happened. Sonny Liston stood up, and they threw in the town hall, he was the world champion, he told him, I told you, I'm gonna beat the world. So as a youngster, as a leader out there, when people don't believe in your dreams, they drag you off, and especially in COVID, if I can just give one message and go that is that you are going to get setbacks. And my whole message is gunfight. One more round, like Ali dead if he could have quit so easily. And a lot of businesses a lot of people emotionally and a huge pressure, even myself, you know, I haven't go for a while, but we have to go there and fight one more round. And that's the mental toughness[PB16] . So I really teach my children that you are going to get setbacks, people are not going to like you, they're going to criticize you, whatever your father do, they're going to criticize your dreams, people's gonna steal your dreams, which I sometimes want to do with my kids, which is so wrong. And I chose to support them whatever they want to do and believe in the values or just go for it. Because like I said, the bumblebee. Nobody thoughts can fly, but it's still flying to this day. So yeah, I tried to be example them, but I don't always get it right. But try their lives in Venice Beach is happy, and I will be happy.
Paul Barnett 33:39
And okay, you've spoken about your desire to help unite South Africa through rugby. So I wanted to finish by asking you, what's the legacy you hope to leave one day as a coach?
Heyneke Meyer 33:51
Yeah, you know, I tell you at one stage, I felt I didn't make a difference. Because you give so much of yourself as a coach, if you're the right coach and you unselfish and it's serving leadership, I saw most of the players more than she saw my own kids. And I talked about work ethic. And you have to pay a price sometimes like my my in my middle son, I nikka. In his first year, it was world cap and I was at the stillness and loss championship I assumed for 30 days. Sometimes it's tough, being a leader and being in business or whatever, if you if you chase your dreams, and you sometimes pay a price, and I sometimes thought I didn't make a difference. But suddenly now a lot of the players I coach is getting older now. And a lot of them phoned me for advice. A lot of them say to me, Listen, Erica, you know what you told all these stories, and some It was great, inspiring. Sometimes I thought maybe it wasn't as bright. But I use the same principles with my kids now in my business. And for me, the legacy to me is not winning trophies, and the dream wins. The drive is not the coach, we've won a lot of trophies, and we had a lot of losses as well, and that's life. And that's why my book I'd actually want to write about most of the gotchas, right. The great things they achieved an autobiography I didn't believe in that. The Legacy I want to leave is that this guy really, really by tried to make The difference in the country and also individuals. And I think that's the most important thing at my grave and the legacy. It's not this is the great coach, because at every single funeral I've been at, I just tell the guys and I know mostly it's false sad, but it's false. I wanted you guys to think they'll say, Listen, this guy had a lot of mistakes, obviously, you've learned from your mistakes, mistakes, but he really tried to make a difference. And I think if there's more human beings going out there and try to make a difference and make the world a better place, I think it would be a great, great place. [PB17] But you know, I'm proud of Africa. And we've got a great country and not just Africa, the world. And we can work together, we can achieve great things. And that's what I stand for. For me, it's not about being in the limelight. And being the successful coach and marketing myself, I really want to go out there and just make a difference in people's lives. And it's up and down. And my best story that I can share, Buck is greater, which was unbelievable, tough character, though he is. And I coach him since he was 18. I've chased him away from training when he didn't have work ethic, I was all the nice guys. We had a lot of fights. And then in 2007, World Cup, every single player can give one string of Jersey to the person that makes the most difference to his life. And obviously, most of the guys gave it to the parents, and was only two guys who didn't give it to the parents and Buffett respect his parents very much not because no respect. He gave his jersey to me and say, Kurt, you know what, I was a very tough guy. I was a bouncer tough. And you made the biggest mistake and for me that JC is worth more than all the trophies with one because I really made a difference. And that's why goats so the legacy for me is really making a difference in the lives of the guys I've coached.
Paul Barnett 36:36
And they come by, it's been a privilege to spend some time with you today and listening to the many great stories you've had from your wonderful career. And I look forward to hearing this interview with a much wider audience audience so they can learn a little bit about you, too. Thank you very much.
Heyneke Meyer 36:51
Thank you. And again, you, you're making a difference. That's what I really respect people. So good luck with the podcast. Thanks for having on the show. And hopefully today we can patch the odds of somebody to fight one more round because that's what I would achieve with my book and especially in COVID. Let's go then fight one more round. We're stronger than this. There's been much much worse dynamics in the in the past. We can get through this as a nation and as the world. Let's fight one more round and thank you very much. It's been a pleasure being on your show.