Ep55 Michelle Clark-Heard
Tue, 7/6 7:25PM • 31:40
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, programme, players, division, cincinnati, coaches, assistant coach, university, play, learning, people, understand, staff, head coach, staley, person, day, recruit, talk, win
SPEAKERS
Michelle Clarke-Heard, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Coach heard good evening or other. Good morning, where you are. And welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Thank you for having me.
We're very excited to talk a little bit of basketball, particularly now with the NBA Finals on. But could I start with something really quite simple? Could you just tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 00:18
Yes, definitely. Now here in Cincinnati, Ohio, and we are just really excited, our girls are about to come back to school for summer school, they've been all for probably four to five weeks, get that break after, you know, this unprecedented season and year. And it's just really exciting to kind of be back in a situation and I'm looking forward to all the new ones, we got a lot of new and a lot of old and it's going to be a great mix. And it's gonna be a lot of fun. So that's what's going on here. And we're just really excited. The weather was great yesterday, a little rainy and a little cloudy today.
Paul Barnett 00:54
We let's look forward to talking about the season coming but also exploring a little bit of your background and some of the great lessons you've picked up on leadership along the way. But potentially, I'd like to just start with winding the clock back and talking about some of the great coaches you've actually experienced firsthand. in researching you and preparing for today, I can see that you've worked with Laurie Pirtle, of course, Dawn Staley, Jeff Waltz, Paul Sandiford, and I'm sure there's many many others, that potentially just an easy question to kick us off. What do you great coaches do differently?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 01:26
You learn so many different things from so many different coaches, I have to start off definitely with my former coach Paul Sandford, who I played for who if it wasn't for him, I would not be sitting here in this coaching chair right now. He gave me my first shot. And you know, it's really funny. I never really knew when I played for him, that when we were hosting recruits, why I was always the student host. So the one that always made sure that the recruit was was good. And head west he wanted to eat, we were able to do what she wanted to do, how we would mix with the team what we would do, and I really never knew I was always that person, because believe it or not, and I talk a lot now they used to be this shy, six foot two young lady that never taught, I know shake your head, everybody, nobody believes it. I tell my players that right now they say no way coach, I said, I know. It's so true. But it also shows you what leadership and coaching and people that believe in you how they can help you blossom into the person that you're supposed to be. And that's what Paul Centre for did for me. So he allowed me to be able to come and work for him at the University of Nebraska started out as a graduate assistant, slash film coordinator slash everything you do as a grad assistant when you first get in, then that next year, I got promoted to assistant coach. I just absolutely loved the relationships, just being with the girls and just watching them blossom. being there. When he was asking me questions about Coach, what is coach mean? And why is he acting this way? And I'm like, Oh, you know, eventually you'll get it. But let me tell you why. I had to start when he goes he definitely is one of my biggest role models and mentors. And because he just believed so much in you know, this 16 year old shy young lady who he brought to Bowling Green, Kentucky to play at Western, Jeff Walz and I, we had a great experience at Nebraska, his sister played and for Coach Sandiford. And Jeff worked at Western Kentucky and then moved down to like coast, Sanford and Nebraska. So we just had a great connection. We had that Kentucky connection. He's from Kentucky, I'm from Kentucky. And there's Paul Sandford that we just adore and just love so much. So working for him at the University of law was incredible. I won't be unable to go to a final four and just be a part of all of that and being a part of building what they are. So doing an amazing job now, having success and having great players that believe in you gave me the opportunity to meet Don Staley with USA Basketball, USA Basketball is one of the highest honours that you can have as a coach to be able to be a part of that. And Diane Staley has been incredible to me just help always, whenever I need anything, have any questions, you know, and I'm just very fortunate to be able to have someone like her in my corner, along with so many other people, I'm just always trying to learn and grow as much as I can. So and I try to pay that forward to I try to make sure that I'm there for the younger coaches, they get into the profession that are in the business, because I know they need people that have been in the game for a while to be able to help them. So that's a lot of the backstory.
Paul Barnett 04:34
Can I explore that backstory a little bit? Yes, actually, Michelle, because I've got this great quote for you. And I'd like to read it to you before I give you the question, actually. And you say, I think it all comes down to your ability to be able to relate to different kids. And I think that you understand that every player is not going to be coached the same. And I see that building those relationships. It allows me to be able to be who I need to be with them and I will is actually quite fascinated by this idea of being who you need to be. To fit that person was wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about this,
Michelle Clarke-Heard 05:09
I've been very fortunate that they say, in life, when you really figure out what your gift is that you should make sure you utilise that gift in a way that really sets for for you to be not only successful, but for you to be happy and who you are in your life. I'm a people's person always have been after I came out of my shell in college, I love relationships, I love learning about the players about their families about what they love, and what is, uh, for others or, and so it's really funny, I never dreamed of myself being a head coach at first because I really thought being an assistant coach was the only way that you could have those type of relationships. But being an assistant coach at the University of Cincinnati, and then going on to be a division to head coach, when I first got my first short, I learned that you can do both. And I just really said that this is what I'm going to do. This is me and who I am. And so even when players I would tell him come to the office or as an assistant coach trying to get closer to players and they might have their this wall up and you're like so I'm always trying to find a way like it was like a challenge to me like, what is it that I can't get this person to do that? They think that now I don't want to do that. Oh, I'm not kidding. We took over at the University of Louisville. And I tell people this story all the time. We had a young lady Candace being on who ended up being a phenomenal player that had just transferred to University of Louisville, from Xavier, and she was from Louisville. So when we got there new staff, so the staff that she signed with, went to Arkansas and we came in, she was a very, very tough person to connect with. And so every single day, she would be in the gym, and she would be shooting. And I would go in the gym and I would just sit there and watch her and we talk and she talked a little bit. And I tell her I said eventually, one day, I'm gonna break you and you're gonna, like, start talking when you come to my office with a No. She said no, I don't think so coach. So then I started learning a little bit more on line that our boyfriend played football. So I knew someone that her boyfriend knew and started talking about that conversation. And then, you know, said okay, I better like back off a little bit. So she she won't feel like that I Oh, coaches just pressing and pressing. So one day, I was in the office, and this is probably maybe after two or three weeks span, and I'm the only coach left in the office and she was came up and was looking for one coach was the head coach. She came in, he was gone. I said, Oh, so I saw she walked by the office. Then she came back came in, I tell her story out of 10. She came in at one time and never left. So she always came back all the time. After that. We grew this bond. That was incredible. And that's just the story of who I am. I feel like that. I know that. There's always individuals and people sometimes that don't know how to express a sale for they sometimes have a fear of like just wanting to be who they are. And I just really love letting people understand and know that it's okay to be different. It's okay to have who you are. But let's just find that common space where we both can be who we are. And I always tell my players all the time, I look at myself in a mirror First, you have to be brave, vulnerable. And you have to get them to understand that [PB1] and just a lot of backstory. So that's where that comes from.
Paul Barnett 08:29
I want to talk to you a little bit about the mirror later on. But potentially first, you've had an unconventional route as a coach, he started off in a Division Two school before you got to where you are now in a division one school and then obviously you've helped coach the national team as well. But reflecting on your journey, you said, make sure you know what your goals are, and not try to always look at what others are doing. It's so easy to get distracted by comparing ourselves to others, though. So what are your top tips on controlling this urge?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 08:57
Is can what I go back to understanding what your why is and what that looks like for you. Everyone's was different. My Why is me being able to give back and be able to give everything I can no matter where that is. [PB2] That's why my role was so unconventional. That's why I go into Division Two. When I was there, that was the best place that I possibly that I knew I wanted to be making every place the best place and I always say that to myself all the time. It was really hard, believe it or not. If Division Two, and Jeff Walz got a job at the University of Louisville after my second year. I didn't want to leave because I had promised those young ladies that I was going to be there and we was going to turn this programme around and we went from winning six games to 19 games and we had all these young players and I felt like that I was letting them down. So I had to go to my athletic director and she's someone that I definitely should have mentioned to as a mentor. She right now works at University of Arkansas. She Was my athletic director and I went to her and I said, I have a job offer to go back to being an assistant coach at division one. I want to ultimately be a head coach here division one, do you think that my route, I could get to be a division one head coach at a level that I would like to be from here at a Division Two school, or to go back to be an assistant on the division one level. And I'm so grateful for her because she said, Give me 24 hours, I'm going to contact some of my colleagues that I know at the division one level, the athletic directors and see what their response would be. So the next day I came back to work, and she said, You have to go, because, and I don't want to lose you. But I have to, I want to really help you reach your vision and your goal. And what it is. She said, they expressed to me that being on the division one level, even as not only the top assistant, but the second assistant and someone that's doing, and coaching and scouting and recruiting, all those things, they will look at that person probably a little more heavier than someone under Division Two level because of the level of talent that you've recruited, the games you've coached in, and everything else and no hardest decision I had to make. But I left and I'm so grateful for her. And I go to the University of Oregon, we have tonnes of success. And then I get a chance to go to my alma mater at Western Kentucky. And that was a dream come true. That was my dream job.
Paul Barnett 11:22
Let's talk about Western Kentucky you get there in 2012. And in your second season, you win the Sun Belt Conference tournament championship and you get you secure a place in the NCAA Tournament. What were some of the first things you did when you got there, that fueled this result,
Michelle Clarke-Heard 11:37
we're gonna go back to relationships again, one of the best players on that team, I played with her on in high school at all star games and everything else. And so when I was assistant at the University of Louisville, we recruited her a little bit, but just really thought size wise, probably in the level where we were at a power five was probably going to be a struggle for her to be really good at our level. So that relationship carried over, when I became the head coach, she became one of the forefront to helping me get everybody to understand when I came there, she was really co signing for me, great person, great coach, she's gonna help us win. She's gonna, it really, really helped spark where we could be able to take the programme to the next level. And she ended up being all Americans wanted and the coolest story, her and I end up wearing the same number. She was number 30. And I was number 30. It was pretty cool. When we ended up going to the NCAA, we had a section in the in the programme, where it was her night, she was in her jersey and I was in my jersey back from when I played, they probably had to dust the cobwebs off from the picture they found with me. That's how it all got started. And just getting those players to understand and know, I knew what it was like I played at the highest level there. And we want to live championships, we were in the top 10 my whole time as a player top 10 in the country. And so it was pretty awesome. Because not only having her be there to get the players to understand what I was what they understood and knew that I had went through a lot of things and what they were trying to go to. So that's how it all started. And once we got that first one, we were like we're not turning back or we're not turning back. Now we're gonna keep going.
Paul Barnett 13:20
You didn't turn back at all that you leave there in 2018. And there's four NCAA appearances in those six years. But what's really interesting is I found a quote from your senior guard macura goings, and she said, once we got used to her, the practices, it all fell together. And I wanted to ask what was it about your style that they had to get used to?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 13:43
Well, when it's a good quote, and is it really that was 2018, the senior here at Cincinnati. That was different, they were coming off a really good season when I took over here had won 19 games. And so we like to get up and down more press. I say My style is I like to control the defensive end. I like to give freedom on the offensive end, I want to score in transition, we run a motion offence where ball screen, freedom read a stretch the floor, play inside out defensively, I like to change up defences, we sometimes will will go for court press. Sometimes we're three quarter press, sometimes we're half court and we're changing up in the middle of a play. So all those things I think that that's what she really expressed into her credit. Nick Kara was the one that really got us going to where we needed to that first year here and got us to those 24 wins and the Elite Eight in the postseason w nit that first year,
Paul Barnett 14:41
freedom change, read the floor. What other values are central to your coaching philosophy?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 14:50
I really just think the discipline is always going to be huge. I think that discipline is definitely as I said earlier, I really focus a lot on the defensive end To change it, you have to be very disciplined if you're going to change defences, and you're going to do those things. And that's why I say freedom on offence, because I want them to feel they're having fun playing the game and want to score so they can get right into defence, and we can have a chance to score again. So I think that that's one big and also understanding, I think one of my biggest things that I've learned as I've grown as a head coach is meeting them where they're at, still having expectations. But understanding knowing that my job and the staffs job is to help teach them and get them to where we're trying to go. And I think sometimes that is, it's difficult at times, because I've been very successful as a head coach. And so you sometimes have to make sure you're being very careful and not putting them in a position where you think you were, or because everything's totally different. And I think there's something that I really can say that I really tried to focus a lot on is really taking a look in the mirror, after every day, even if it's after a practice where we don't do well, if it's after a game where we haven't performed at the level before I go back to them. And before I talk with them, always come with them about what I could have done better.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 16:17
You've talked about this mirror a lot, actually, Michelle, in the interviews, it comes out a lot. And I wanted to talk about being critical, actually, you come across as someone who's very, it's got strong belief, strong values and knows what they want. But there must be times when you are too critical on yourself. And in fact, we know that athletes are often too critical on themselves. And how do you stop yourself from getting into paralysis. When that happens?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 16:41
You got to have great people around you and surround you with my staff. And I'm definitely a big example of that was this past season, we had a lot of injuries, we've not only went through the pain, the pandemic and everything with that in the success for what we normally and what I'm normally used to as a head coach. It wasn't there. And so I was I was very hard on myself, I was beating myself up at times, very strong in my faith, praying the light, putting a lot of things in perspective, but just had a really strong staff that really understood and knew. And so every single day, I think, when there was times when I felt like that I was about to fall, they were there to catch me and help pick me up. [PB4] And every individual was different in different ways. And so I'm really so much a pre we grew so much as a staff through that. But they also was really incredible in helping me grow not only as a coach, but as an individual.
Paul Barnett 17:43
Michelle, what's been one of your best moments as a coach?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 17:45
Yeah, I've had a lot. But I tell you one, that as a as a head coach that really stands out to me, I would say to the first championship that you just talked about that at Western Kentucky, you always remember your first as a head coach, you always remember that. My second one here at the University of Cincinnati when the programme hadn't been to a championship game in 17 years. And we were down 15 points in the semis. And we came all the way back. That's a memory that I will always have because not only was it about the players, but you speak of Lori Pardo earlier, Lori Pardo won, you know, all time waiting this code shoot it put, the reason why I'm sitting here is because she gave me a chance as an assistant coach. And I saw how great this programme could be. We had a W NBA draft pick, we were in the top 25. I saw that that happened. And I was a part of that. And so getting that team to the championship, and it hadn't been done in 17 years was something that I will never forget as a coach because Laurie Pardo all the players they played here before that was for them. And it is something that will always stick with me in my coaching career.
Paul Barnett 18:58
I thought your answer might have something to do with self belief propelling athletes forward. Yeah, that's a good one. But this idea you know, you've talked a lot about relationships you say your relationship coach and I see come through in interviews with you all the time. But the end it must be so draining, to bring this type of caring, this type of energy into work every day into the role every day into the team every day. How do you go about sustaining yourself and making sure that you don't deplete your energy?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 19:27
Well, first off, I think is self love, self love and making sure that you are the best you that you can be every single day. Not saying that I'm going to be perfect every day. But just I think it goes a lot back to my why I'm very humble and apart in the fact of where I came from, and where it all started. [PB5] And when I think about 1213 hour bus rides in Division Two, when I think about having to do everything there and and but just to see the joy on all those players. faces and understanding every single day that it didn't matter what level we were at, or what we were doing it was they were doing something they love to do. And their parents were proud of them. And they were becoming amazing young women. I never forget that every day, I never forget my high school coach, saying something in me, I didn't want to play basketball at because I was 61. And everybody thought I should play. And I was like, that's not what I want to do. That doesn't. I don't know, that doesn't really excite me. But um, I seen that. And I still remember those days, I remember those moments. So growing up in my high school coach coming into my house and telling my parents that he had only watched me play twice. And he says, If she just really bought into it, and really worked really hard, she could go to school free. And I know my parents couldn't afford that. And so every single day when I wake up, and I get up and I workout, everybody has a routine they do the things they do. I never forget that there's always one player, one person, one recruit one coach, someone does looking at me and saying, I wonder how one day I could get to where she's at. So that's how I go. And that's how I become every single day. Being grateful and humble and thankful for where I'm at.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 21:19
Michelle, can you teach self love?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 21:22
I think it's not that. I don't know if I can say that you can't teach it. I think you have to be motivated to get better at whatever, in whatever situation you feel like you might be down or you might you have to find a way that what, what makes you different? And what makes you happy with who you are? I think that's a big, big question. And I think it's a really big question for every a lot of people in the world but especially our young people today, there is a lot that goes on. And I think that that's something another reason why I cherish every moment, I can't wait every player and in the in the position that I'm in because sometimes what can happen is as a coach, we get lost in the we get lost in the wins and the losses. But our job in that leadership role is to make sure that we're given every interview, I take it personal.[PB7] And every situation if I can't. in the world today, some things just don't work out when you recruit sometimes players and you might think it's going to be one way and it just doesn't fit. It doesn't fit with who that may be that person thought or maybe that person gets homesick, and they want to move back closer to home where I take all those things personal. I go back and I say hey, how can I What could I have done better? What could I have done differently. And I've had to really, that's the thing we were talking about earlier about as an athlete. And even I feel like as a successful leader, sometimes we want to beat ourselves up. And we want to think that everything, we have to do everything perfect, or it has to be that way. And it doesn't you actually learn more, sometimes from failing.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 23:00
In 2018. You move back, you move across to the University of Cincinnati. Why now you've got all this learning behind, you've got 13 hour bus trips behind you, you've got division two schools, you've got a successful run into division one school. And in their first season 20 wins for the first time since 2003. And what I wanted to ask you was was there anything different from between your start at Cincinnati, and your start back at Western Kentucky? Did anything change?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 23:29
Yeah, I think I can. Yeah, I changed. And what I mean by that is as you grow and as you continue to go through so many different things, you know, my confidence, my ability to know that I was in the right place at the right time, if that makes sense. When I started at Western Kentucky, I was very confident. But I was really way more excited that that was my alma mater, and that I could give back to them and and for everything that that university did for me. Coming here was totally different. It was a, okay, now I understand I know what it looks like to win championships and to get to, you know, NCAA, and not have the firepower or to have maybe, you know, just little things like Okay, so what does it look like so the confidence changed, and also to just a learning aspect of like, now let's see what I can do at this level, recruiting wise, everything else and it was just different. And I was I'm thankful and so grateful that I stayed at West Kentucky as long as I did because it allowed me to walk in here with that confidence. So that is what really changed. You become seasoned, you become more seasoned. I became more seasoned I became one thing I am really working to make sure that I do really do it here every year and there is Enjoy. I'm very blessed, we talked about it, it was a lot of winning in Western Kentucky, you get used you get used to that. And sometimes you don't celebrate all the memories, I want to make sure that as I continue, and as I'm blessed to be able to do this, that I enjoy and celebrate those memories, as something that I really want to make sure that I do. But that is what changed, I became more seasoned, I became more confident. I think I knew by then that I that what my niche was as a coach, still learning every day. But the way we play defensively the way we do things, I knew that that was something that would be different in this league. I was very excited about that and excited about the competition. UConn was in the league at first and everyone is if you don't get excited about wanting to play the best, then why why are we doing this?
Paul Barnett 25:53
You talked a lot earlier about Laurie Pirtle and how influential she wasn't on your career. When you now teach in empower your own staff. When you pass that on? What do you focus on with them?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 26:07
I think the biggest thing is the pay attention. That's one thing that Laurie part was impeccable with, is paying attention to detail. She was an unbelievable teacher. She taught me how to teach the game. I watched her and there was this young coach that they came in and had worked under her on the ball. So I knew basically everything Paul Sandford was teaching and how he was teaching it. And then I had to come here and learn all over and start like different. And think different and be disciplined. I think that's really something I really tried to make sure that I pass on to my staff a lot, the pay attention to detail and the belief. And we talked about the success that we had in 2003. And all those, a lot of those players wasn't top 50 players in the country or top what and her and the staff really helped develop them. And I really believe not only developing on the court, but developing off the court and helping people understand what their purpose is, I really try to focus a lot with that when my staff,
Paul Barnett 27:15
Michelle, if I could take you back to that 16 year old and introduce you to her that shy, six foot 216 year old, knowing what you know now, what advice would you have for her?
Michelle Clarke-Heard 27:26
I think I would the advice I definitely would have would be be okay with who you are and who God bless you to be. Because I think the confidence was a BSI we talked about Shy, shy comes from confidence also to and believe in. And then I would also say to her to their 16 year old, never set boundaries for yourself, what are the limitations of what you can't do?[PB9] Because I, I struggled struggled with taking tests I struggled with a lot of different things as I got through high school and started going understand that well, you better learn how to do these things. So if you want to excel more in life, and I think that's one thing I would say don't be afraid to live outside of what others think that you possibly could do.
Paul Barnett 28:17
Show you've spoken a lot about your influences a role model, and how important that is to you to live up to that that standard that you set yourself and perhaps what others expect of you that maybe my last question would be, what type of legacy would you eventually like to leave as a coach,
Michelle Clarke-Heard 28:35
the biggest thing for me is, I would love to be remembered as the coach that really really cared for, for her players. And who gave 110% every single day win lose, just brought that passion, that bar that love for the game. That's what I would love for that legacy to be definitely [PB11] Oh, there's always personal things. I say this a lot to my team into, I want to get to I want to coach, I want to be a coach and coach in the Final Four, I want to do that I do I want to, I want to take a programme that nobody thinks can do it. And I want to do that. And I think that's another big dream of mine, just because I think there was a reason why I'm here also too, as I probably had plenty of opportunities to go other places and power five schools as people say, but there was something special about here. But that is definitely what I would want my legacy to be on just who I am as a person and what I gave every single day to my players and to everyone that's around me every day.
Paul Barnett 29:39
Would you mind if I challenge you on that? Yeah, we've obviously ever met before today, but just listening to you. I get the sense that you're one of these rare individuals who actually grows their self belief through life. A lot. A lot of people are born with it, and then they take it forward in their life. But you you strike me as someone that was able to grow it, develop it And I don't know how that happened, maybe it's through just observation and learning and this drive to be better every day. But I think it rubs off on your team and you just referenced it, then you want to take a programme that's not expected to succeed, and you want to take them there. So I think there's something about engendering self belief in others, that will probably be something your athletes talk about, when their head coaches one day,
Michelle Clarke-Heard 30:24
well, I tell you what I that will be very, I think that would be something that would be very special, because I think you're probably right, that is something that is inside of me that is very driven, that I'm glad that I've been able to figure that part out and understand it. And know that that's what makes me and helps me be who I am. And this season part I'm really excited about because it allows me to be comfortable every single day in my skin with that and and who I am and where I'm at. I've had to grow into that. But I'm very grateful for that.
Paul Barnett 31:03
I think being comfortable in your own skin is a wonderful way to end. And so I'd like to thank you Michelle, for your time, my evening, your morning. It's been wonderful spending a bit of time we did today and hearing about your story.
Michelle Clarke-Heard 31:15
Thank you so much for just investing and really just taking the time to reach out and given me this opportunity. And I hope that your your people that are listening, that it may be just one thing. I said it was sparked down to just remember or in any moment to help empower them in any way in leadership.
Paul Barnett 31:35
Thank you, Michelle. All the best. Thanks. All right.