Ep57 Brad Dubberley
Thu, 7/15 8:24AM • 28:06
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
athletes, coach, paralympics, sport, programme, game, team, play, suppose, people, world champs, talking, extremely, knew, opponents, called, bit, win, players, london
SPEAKERS
Brad Dubberly, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Brian, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. And Brad, let me just start by asking, Where are you in the world today?
Brad Dubberly 00:08
Yes, I'm based here in Melbourne in Australia. Very difficult times at the moment. We're all locked down and unable to travel here, there and everywhere. But yeah, here is my wife and two kids. So good man.
Paul Barnett 00:20
Well, lockdown has helped us carve out a little bit of time for this interview today. So there is some good that is coming from this situation. So Brad, I'm really excited to talk to you about you're experiencing multiple Paralympics. And I'd really like to start from there, actually, because so far you've coached or participated in for Paralympic Games. And so from that vantage point, what is it you think that the great coaches do differently? Yeah, I
Brad Dubberly 00:45
think the great coaches just particularly nowadays, like it's definitely changed a fair bit over over the time, I think nowadays, the coaches have a really good relationship with the athletes in particular. And that's almost I mean, really getting down to their level and sort of being appear more so than a dictator, telling them exactly how it's going to be. So having that sort of empathy and understanding and I think also having understanding that each athlete has their own learning styles. And so you know, someone would be visual, somebody to see videos, someone better listening to stuff. Some people don't want to meet face to face, but we'll be happy to speak over FaceTime or whatever. So I think really getting a good understanding of how everyone learns the best. And then also been able to just not really be the dictator, but also sort of be the educator, ask a lot of questions and help them really think their way through it and become that problem solver really, to be able to handle each decision during the game or a competition and work their way through it.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 01:37
You moved into coaching quite early, and you've said that you find coaching more rewarding than playing what why is that?
Brad Dubberly 01:43
Ah, yes, I played in the Sydney and Athens Paralympics. So silver medal in Sydney. Don't worry about Athens, and then Beijing, London, and Rio. Yeah, I've been coaching. So coach, as still my first Paralympics as a silver, pretty quick turnaround like I started coaching, beginning of 2007. And that was really bizarre time, just because we had I was coaching a lot of my teammates that I played was saying my tweet, so we sort of had to learn that and then from there, yeah, coach to Goldman, also in London was our first 120 12. And then gold again, in Rio, each one's been very different. But I think the coaching so much more rewarding when particularly the team sport, and particularly the Paralympic sport, when you you're really building the whole team, and you're really taking the athlete in their families on their journey. So, in, in my sport, in particular, got athletes who have been injured, whether it be breaking their legs and become have a small injuries, or whether it be amputations or whatever it may be, and their families are obviously very close to what happens there. And you go from that not knowing what the future holds to travelling and improving Yeah, obviously, your life and you're competing, again, be very lucky to be very successful. And to have the athletes on the top of the podium and having our anthem played and you look on the crowd, and you see their family and friends crying just so excited from that journey that it's been, it's just so much more rewarding than when it's by yourself. And you've obviously got my own family and you train and you work hard and stuff like that you're essentially just a part of the team doing is what the team needs, not sort of helping, I suppose build the whole thing and, and having all those, I suppose more than that in detailed relationships with everybody. So I think it's just so much more rewarding.[PB2] And I suppose, yeah, just definitely seeing that, that team know how far we've come and achieve and, and nowadays where you know, whether, suppose the benchmark, everyone's trying to take us out all the time, and just a lot more enjoyable being an innovator and try to improve not just copying all the time, and just keeps more fun. So I think that's probably the main reason why I prefer the coating over the over the plane.
Paul Barnett 03:49
Well, we'll get to the the back to back golf middles in a little bit, but I wanted to just pause there for a minute and ask you transition very quickly from player within the team, as you just mentioned to the coach. It's difficult to do and I'm wondering if there was any advice or top tips you would take from your transition to offer others?
Brad Dubberly 04:07
Am I my transition is very interesting and different. So I was one of the main one best players in the world at the time playing all over the world. But club teamed in America and Japan and Sweden and all Canada and all just all over the place. But I had some shoulder injuries after the Athens Paralympics and I went back and played in the states and I became an assistant coach to a head coach here who was who came from ha basketball. Funny enough after 2006 World Champs I went in with a resignation saying I don't want to coach anymore. I just want to go back to playing perfect Australia is now called the Australian Paralympic Committee at that time, he said Oh, hang on to that. We want you to be a head coach, which means you can't play but Furthermore, we're running on your behalf now to make the decision. I think it was a really smart move because I think at that time, as an athlete, I was as much of as playing a team sport or very much all about me. We're having a half an hour of aside, I had enough To speak to a few people, like key athletes or empower the team managers, or parents and stuff like that, and then try to go back and within half an hour and say, yeah, it's not about me, it's about the team, I think I've got the qualities to be able to lead the team, I've got the support, let's get the work. So I went in with the resignation to not, not coach just apply left being the head coach and not apply, essentially. But I think yet, there was a very quick turnaround. And I was obviously pretty young at the time and yeah, but I think it's just been so rewarding to obviously put my own sort of wants to play to putting the team team there and knowing that I had the I suppose skills and the people around me to build a really successful programme and be where we are now.
Paul Barnett 05:44
wheelchair rugby has been dubbed combat chess. So in that context, what is the role of the coach in your sport?
Brad Dubberly 05:53
I yes, I will chair I was very, it's particularly nowadays, it's extremely tactical, as much as portrait chair contact, and a lot of players are falling out and stuff like that, particularly nowadays, like most elite sports, and our opponents now know each other extremely well. So you know, which plays a from our opponents of what they're going to do, who's going to come on when all that sort of stuff, and I'll get on really well with the other coaches as well, top tier coaches. So not only do we know each other really well, we know what each other are going to do. So it's very tactical, but I think the biggest things is so just really putting belief into your pregnancy athletes and showing them the plan and why and how we're gonna succeed. And in most powerful exports, we've also got all the classification issues. So being able to count up to eight, in our case for classification, so you classify better much function, you got point five being the most, I suppose impaired, up to 3.5, which is the more able athletes been able to make sure that the right combinations and cell phone call and so it's a very, very, it's suppose Yeah, tactical and trying to really add to our opponents, but also knowing what we have within our own team to be able to make the most of any situation.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 07:01
Well, in that situation where you all know each other and you playing together regularly. How do you innovate? How do you surprise and catch the other catch off guard?
Brad Dubberly 07:10
Well, particularly the Paralympics, which are World Champs, which is what we're all obviously aiming for, kind of have to do some stuff on the slide. So you have to, you might only show some stuff for a little while during some tournaments that aren't that important just to see what what might happen and how they might respond to it. And then if it goes awry, you might put it away, or you use it against some other opponents and unnecessarily against the team that you're about to play, or training camps and stuff like that. But we watch a lot of other sports. So you know, whether it be NFL, ice, hockey, basketball, there's a lot of stuff to learn from other sports and even other sports that aren't necessarily physical contact sports, like even other sports from like table tennis and other sports, you just learn so much by watching other coaches coach and athletes competing that Yeah, he is always looking for other areas to look to improve and just get different ideas really.
Paul Barnett 08:02
So could you give us an example of something you learned recently from another sport that you folded into your own coaching philosophy?
Brad Dubberly 08:11
Yeah, so just I suppose, like I was saying the play calling cards from a few years ago, back in a lot of the American American football, our APA board with different pictures and stuff like that, which means a different defence or offence or something like that. Their team obviously understands what they're going to do, and do it. So we've used that in the past to be able to drown out crowd noise. So I might flash a card that might be green, which means we're pressing or red goes back to key or something. So just as a way to counter crowd noise. So we use a programme called sports code, which is what a lot of supposedly teams use and athletes use, which is around just breaking down our opponent games and stuff like that. So we know what each other's what our opponents going to do, where they're going to go, who's going to pass with left or right hand, all that sort of stuff. But yeah, it's really just looking at other sports, seeing whether it be an impact player, how they you know, how they involve themselves in a game more, whether it be a Yeah, just looking into different different ways that sports and teams and coaches implement stuff.
Paul Barnett 09:15
So now I'd like to talk about the back to back gold medals if I could. You took it over in 2006. The team wins a silver medal in Beijing. But then in 2012, and 2016, you coach gold medal teams. And I'd like to ask what changes what changed from 2008 to create the first team ever to win back to back gold medals?
Brad Dubberly 09:39
Yeah, so we still had that process, I suppose after losing the gold medal game or for me, it's obviously less you win. You probably lost silver medalist in Beijing. We then went again and got silver again to the same team USA 2010 World Champs, and as a team, we just continue to grow. We're trying to try to learn ahead to what the sport might look like in a few years time. So particularly after losing in Beijing, but then probably more. So once we got to losing 10 2010 worlds, it was like, the third really took the approach of what's it going to take to win World Championships in 2014. Because that's the style of rugby and the athletes, we need to have to win London, that's, that's what we need to find, we need to go out and find these athletes, and implement a new game style plan that just teams are just not going to run with and keep up with. And sure enough, we've managed to find those players are really being a new coach or really tried to control and dictate everything. But when we got to London, Paralympics, extremely simplified everything. So it was just the athletes could actually play what was in front of them, they knew that I back them had the confidence in him. I just made it so much easier to operate and enjoy yourself. So I suppose you being ahead of the curve having athletes and lineups that other teams just couldn't run with and couldn't compete with, but also having our athletes just having so much confidence, knowing that I trust them. And yeah, understanding the game plan really just made it so much easier. I guess I think a lot of coaches really try to control too much stuff, instead of putting a confidence and trust in your athletes to allow them to play within their means and, and really try to take some ownership of it. So that was probably the biggest thing. [PB4] And then. So we won. Yeah. I also challenged the team in London. So let's go through and win every single quarter of every game. I didn't really think we're going to do that. Sure enough, we did that we went every single quarter of every game, every player played in every game. I think we won the final buyers thing was about 15 or 16 goals. our very last goal that we scored was like points on the clock was the last goal to actually when that last quarter. Otherwise, that would have been a corporate tie call. So yeah, it was just fantastic. And then yeah, we went on 120 14 welds, and then 2016 rolls around and was probably one of the best games got around that gold medal game double overtime against the USA. And yeah, that's just phenomenal. And then since then, we've gone to 28 emo champs and lost to Japan in the final here in Australia. Again, just one of our big time rivals. And that was a phenomenal game as well, what right down to the wire. So nowadays in our sport, we've really got four or five teams that are capable of winning on any day. But that's also what makes it so intriguing, I suppose and make us all continue to work hard and try to innovate and get better. So
Paul Barnett 12:31
right you talk to them about simplifying your message hitting into London. Was there a catalyst or something that you learn or someone you interacted with that helped you learn that lesson?
Brad Dubberly 12:41
Like I have a few coaches in the past or spend some time with and just observe watching them coach their own teams and sport so I spent some time with Craig Bellamy as Melbourne storm watching him train Melbourne stone, as well over time with people like Robbie deans and stuff who was coaching the Wallabies for a little while. But yeah, like just really saying how I operated. And as I said, I think a lot of coaches get stuck just trying to do too much and then ain't too much. Too much instruction ends up just scrambling in athletes heads and they just like, should I be here, should I be there, where's the coach want me to do, I'm too late, I'm not there. And then they start doubting themselves. And so it's a case of really trying to concentrate on the key things that you want that will make a difference and simplified to the point that they can not only understand it allows them to put their own I suppose flair on it as well, which makes it more enjoyable[PB5] .
Paul Barnett 13:32
Talking about self doubt, I was reading preparation for today. And you seem to have a very clear message to people which is don't let the chair stop you from doing anything. And so I wanted to ask you, how you've helped your athletes deal with self doubt and overcome that and participate in what have been some wonderful achievements. We're in the green gold of the country.
Brad Dubberly 13:53
It's it's a funny one in a lot of people say a disability is an impairment. Or you know, someone being disabled help and I'll do anything with I can tell you straight out right now that most more people in the Paralympic sort of sport like we do more more with our lives and most able bodied people do be able to show people that life isn't over just because you might have an impairment or an injury. And then being able to travel the world and do this and do that. When as I said earlier, having their families believe that and encouraging it's a real positive thing to start off with them. So for us within our sport, we you know, we don't see that wheelchair is a it's a piece of equipment, like a Formula One car, like it's not how you define why it's what's what you bring to the programme. So it's not even something that's really even spoken about within our programme or something that really needed to work on or speak about[PB6] . But particularly during this time of the COVID period. Now we've really spent a bit of time with work on our mental game, probably more so than anything but particularly being vulnerable a little bit to making sure that if you're not feeling well or whatever might be knowing that you had teammates and staff and that they gotta help out help you don't sort of feel like you have to hold it in and sort of balls up and get bigger and worse, open up the space of trust and people and, and that sort of helps continue to build that confidence and trust in one another. And that leads to performance when we can play[PB7] . But yeah, that's probably the way we sort of approach that area.
Paul Barnett 15:19
Talking about the mental aspect of the game, I was watching the gold medal game against the US in 2016. In Rio to prepare for today, and the scores are locked, you're in over time, camera pans across to you. Look, you were smiling and talking to your team, as if it was just any other game, it was quite unique. And I wanted to ask, are there any routines or systems that you use to maintain calmness during the game?
Brad Dubberly 15:45
I don't know the answer to this one. But for some reason, the last two Paralympics is when I'll probably be at my most content and commerce, particularly that's called Moodle games. I don't know why, when one of my classmates is too many, he's our media liaison for the whole power big team, and we're at events and he just goes, you know, liven up a bit, you're just making everyone so nervous, because you're so calm and relaxed. And but for me, I think I know that, particularly in an environment like that, we know that everyone will us and our opponents of awkward extremely matter a lot of work into getting to that point in time, during a game, there's not too much that you can do that will change the outcome of each team's going to make mistakes. And it's about who can rebound from that the quickest and deal with it and not get bogged down by it, [PB8] we knew that we're gonna play extremely tough team in America in the final. But I remember before the game even started, like it was just trying to do things not just because of felt like the players needed to do it. But just to kind of keep myself light hearted and having fun and relaxed. And remember, on the warm up quarter, I can stand up and walk around a little bit like, my name is long distance and one of our players and I just see if he can kick the ball walk down the other end of the court with us where I get an extremely well, the US coach and a kick the ball and just buzzer tower nearly knocked him out of his chair. All our guys just cracked up laughing the Americans were on edge straightaway, we knew that we're going to win. Even if it went to six over times, we knew that we were the fittest team there. We knew everything that the US were going to do. We were just in a much better I suppose mindset or just so much more relaxed and enjoying the moment where the US in particular a lot more to switched on. And obviously, it's a very big game. But at the same time, I suppose the more you can make it fun and enjoyable. That's where you get the better result. And Funny enough, I bet you a gold medal game. I remember sitting there just sort of in front of the crowd, as the medal ceremony was on this lady reaches over and says, excuse me, Brad, how many volumes that you have before that game because I'm up here stressing and I've had so many beers and this and that. And I just thought, Oh, they use so relax them. And I said I just knew that I had to sort of kick compose, because I say if I start panicking and stressing the athletes style, feeling that as well. And then that's when errors happen. So there's very much a thing about make sure that I kept composed and control, particularly towards the athletes, I could vent or whatever to my assistant coach or the manager at the time. But just make sure the athletes saw me as calm, confident and relaxed, because I knew that that's the way to get best result over elevating[PB9] . Brad,
Paul Barnett 18:22
if you were trying to improve the culture of a team, what are some of the things you should do first?
Brad Dubberly 18:30
Look, to be honest, I think first and foremost is that it's a team. So I don't think you go in there and you just try and take over. And this is what I think the team needs to have and be, I think you got to do it as a collective and have everyone be able to contribute doesn't mean it go one way or another. But if everyone feels like they can contribute, be heard and be listened to, they're more likely to buy into the programme then just being dictated to and told us how it's going to be. So I think Yeah, really having a collective approach. And making sure everyone's involved is a big part of that, and show and just really making sure you spend some time with everybody. Even a wife, like you know, you might be there as a sports team, enjoying some time doing other activities, whether it be playing cards, or having dinner or just something to get to know each other on a personal basis, not just from that work or sport basis, because when stuffs gonna go wrong, it always happens at the worst possible time. And you want to make sure that your teammates and your peers and that are there and you've got confidence and trust in them to have you back I feel is extremely important and say I'd make sure that you really don't come in and try and dictate and this is my way or the highway it's collected where everyone can feel that they can contribute and buy in and be heard and bring their own positive. good thoughts to the programme as well. [PB10] More so than just yeah, just that's how it is.
Paul Barnett 19:56
Well Brad talking about things going wrong. How have you managed to control or influence disruptive peer pressure within a team?
Brad Dubberly 20:05
Yeah, I've been very lucky. So one of my assistant coaches, or my assistant coach, Greg Smith, he, he's got a military background. So he was in the Army National, he was actually injured. I had a character and he was a physical trainer in the army. He was a multiple gold medal winning athlete in marathons and track before he came across the rugby. So he's extremely well respected within the programme from the athletes because of what he's done. And his appear to a lot of them as well when he played red teaming in London and other events as well. But I feel that at times, we kind of confuse the athletes where I'll be good cop or bad cop and Smitty with the other one. So they always know that one of us are going to be there to support the other ones coming down hard on you, but it's about I feel that, yeah, have any athlete, they've none of them, all of them know that we're not out there taking a personal attack on anybody, it's more about trying to make it make each individual on the team get better. So we know that, you know, I'm saying that, Paul, I'm not saying you're a crap podcast person, I'm just saying, I feel you can improve in these areas. So I'm not having a tech as a personal point of view, I'm having a believe that you can be better, you know, in these areas. So the athlete athletes actually know that they're supported and thought a personal attack is a big part of it, because I think some people just began and sort of see the negative everything. And that's part of what breaks teams and people down. So but I think, yeah, it's really just trying to, I suppose as a collective work together, and as it for me, I've got smears assistant coach who does an extremely great job and speaks to the athletes, they know about the athletes as well, who will always if there's any issues within the plane ranks, will bring them forward or try and help them out as well. So just really, I suppose having a real collective, good environment, and culture really helps sort those issues out.[PB11]
Paul Barnett 21:59
Brad, I understand you were a good sportsman in your youth, and then you had your accident. And you transitioned very quickly in a new direction in the new sport, and I kept kids playing sport, just a different different apparatus. So I want to talk about challenge and resilience. And I wanted to ask what's been your greatest challenge so far? As a coach?
Brad Dubberly 22:19
I don't know, I enjoy challenges, because it makes me obviously something to work through. And I think the biggest challenge is probably right now really, just not be able to plan and put stuff in place. For right now. For example, we don't know where the Paralympics will even happen. We don't know, when borders wide open. So how do we plan and prepare for camp? How do we pay for an international comp? Even if the games do go ahead? Do we have all athletes available? Do they all feel safe to actually go to a games? If not, if you lose to me players? Can you feel the team? For us? You know, it's also been? How can we actually help support them and keep them in a routine where they're actually, you know, doing some form of training to work through this period is been extremely challenging. We've had a lot of team training sessions through zoom and all these sorts of different streams and stuff like that. But it's just been, it's been a really tough time. But in a funny enough light, trying to work outside that it's really been about trying to look towards 2022, World Champs or even Paris, as again, it's like I sort of said earlier is to try and figure out how what the team might look like for that to win. How can we best get to that position? Because those events are probably more likely to happen than a Paralympics at the moment going by the current state of things. But we've obviously got to best prepare for Paralympics if they go ahead. So yeah, it's just it's just been a really challenging tough time. And I think trying to lean on people that you've got the confidence and trust in and look for some positive, probably more so than just the the death toll and the Happy new cases and can't do this. You can't go there. What can we do? Yeah, how can we get the best out of that scenario in that situation to better ourselves for now and also the future?
Paul Barnett 24:05
You talked earlier about learning from other sports. But I'd also like to ask you, are there any other resources that you found particularly useful as a coach, especially when it comes to managing challenges?
Brad Dubberly 24:14
Yeah, like so. A couple years ago, actually, just before Rio, the Australian students board had a programme called podium coach at the time together, and there's a lot of Olympic coaches and professional coaches and I was only powerlifting coach in that group. And it was a really good and interesting course to go through at the time was the first time the course was around, and that really helped bond A lot of us together. And I think like as a coach, generally speaking, if you're within your own sport, and there's other coaches, they feel quite quite threatened and put barriers up and stuff like that, but where we are, they're all different sports. Were actually out to go and have some beers at the pub together and relax and say that we weren't you know, I wasn't gonna I wasn't all of a sudden going to become a rowing coach or a water polo coach or whatever and So to get those peers from other sports and build those relationships and was huge, really? Yeah, just knowing that your potential people you can reach out to and ask if you got a question or Yeah, was just very refreshing, because so often you see barriers getting put up all the time, you know, even at a rugby event, obviously, I'm not going to go and speak to the American or Japanese or English coach, as much as I get on well with them, I'm not going to start, hey, how do you guys do this? Because that's, that's given stuff away. So yeah, so that's been, besides the fact of seeing how they operate in other sports and how they approached their training, or whatever it might be been really good to speak to other coaches away from the sporting arena and the training fields and sort of interact a bit. And but yeah, I've obviously got a lot of really good resources to draw upon from many different areas, whether it be skill acquisition, performance analysts, even your team manager at the moment is got a background in playing a bit of AFL football staff. So drawing on a lot of different areas, is probably one of the biggest strengths, I suppose.
Paul Barnett 26:05
But if I could just ask one last question, and it's around legacy, and what is the legacy that you you want to leave as a coach,
Brad Dubberly 26:13
I definitely want to continue to grow our sport in our in our country in particular, we've got a phenomenal sport, globally, particularly as a top tier teams, when people watch a final from Paralympics or World Champs and they're just like, wow, this is crazy. It can drag it can drag people into want to get involved. And I think I've slept present before, whether it be someone who's just in hospital, whether it be from a traumatic accident, or whatever it might be you're born with something and know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, there is options and opportunities around to do something. But for me here, I definitely want to make sure that our sport continues to grow here in Australia, and just gives more participation and more opportunity to play. Some people get bored when the same team keeps winning all the time. For me on a really, I'm not born with us winning for us, we had Japan beat us at the last World Championship. So Paralympics is in Japan. So they upset us on our home turf, it'd be great to go there and knock them off on their home turf, too. So they really just want to really try and help set up our programme and in our sport in our country and, and globally, to really go that next level. Depending where you are from around the world depends on how much funding and resources you can access as well. And we're very fortunate here in Australia, and just mostly due to how successful we've been over a long period of time and the players that we've got. So yeah, really want to try and make sure we find those, that next crop of athletes and develop some coaches and all that sort of stuff to set us up the wind for a long time. Continue to be successful when my kids grow up, and then grandchildren and whatever love about to go along and chill time still being successful and people enjoying join the sport. So
Paul Barnett 27:56
Bradley, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a pleasure talking to you and I wish you all the best for the road ahead to Tokyo. Thank you very much. Appreciate the time