Episode 006 Eddie Jones (interview)
Thu, 9/3 2:41PM • 41:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, players, rugby, brumbies, winning, bit, game, people, england, talk, playing, team, mate, japanese, picking, immediately, eddie, problem, find, big
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Eddie Jones
Paul Barnett 00:00
Eddie Jones. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
Eddie Jones 00:04
Alright, Paul,
Paul Barnett 00:06
whereabouts in the world are you today and what have you been up to?
Eddie Jones 00:10
Well, I'm in Bagshot Surrey, at our training center the England Training Center, very posh area of England. And that today Ive been doing a few zoom meetings in the morning. As we all do, and this afternoon just preparing we're about to start some camps for the players in the next three or four weeks. So the coaches are all busily preparing what we need to do now.
Paul Barnett 00:36
Very glad to get a little bit of your time then before things ramp up. And full disclosure. I guess at the start of the podcast, you do work for Suntory and I am with Asahi. So we won't be talking about beer at all in this discussion,
Eddie Jones 00:51
but no quality beer discussion mate
Paul Barnett 00:55
maybe at the end when we're off camera. Eddie, I wanted to start by just going back a little bit in time because you know preparing for this interview I get to see some of the names that you've had exposure to Jake White Bob Dwyer Alex Ferguson, Warren Gatlin. You talk about Pep Guardiola and this is just the tip of the iceberg. So I guess the first question is, what is it that you think that great coaches do differently than the others?
Eddie Jones 01:24
Well, I think they're very clear on what they want. So they, they see the game. They got an image of the game, and they know what is successful in the game. I think they're also very good at giving players what they need. Which is, is is probably the most, I think, the highest sophisticated skill of a coach. Understanding what your players need, from a group point of view and from an individual point of view. And I think the last thing is They've gotta generally gotta insatiable desire to be better. And whether that's through winning or through building better things. They all want to they all want to find out a better way to do it.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 02:18
You know, I was preparing for this and I kept coming back time and time again to this idea of, of you being uncomfortable and always wanting to learn more, and I was watching a webinar, back in April, where you were talking to other rugby coaches. And you were saying, you know, every three to six months you sit down, you review your professional development plan, and you look at areas that you want to focus on for your improvement. If we were to dust that off and get it out. Now I'm interested to know what would be on the top of the list
Eddie Jones 02:47
Yeah because of the circumstance because we had basically six months to reflect the three, it's always generally three key areas because like most people, I cant remember more than three, I haven't got the capacity to do any more than three. So three of the one been really looking at the game of rugby and seeing how we can take our English game which is a very defence set piece game and how we can add to that game we don't want to take away from what we're good at. And then the second part has been about coaching cohesion. I think it's one of the interesting things I have as I've been through Corona, I think that that coaching staffs probably going to get smaller You know, there's a big story in the the Australian papers today about how the AFL again to have to reduce their assistant coaches. So your ability to get a really cohesive coaching staff because you think about staffs. Now, when I first started coaching, I had a staff of about eight. I could do one on one reviews with them every month. You know, I knew the staff knew their jobs now. I'm looking after a staff of 25 permanent staff, and then you've got a host of consultants outside of that. And that's the way it's grown, so your ability to manage that group and get cohesion in that group is, is is vital. And I've just had a new coaching staff for the six nations that we only had three days tp prepare. So I've been really working on how we can get cohesive. [PB2] And the last things been a bit of a I wouldn't say experiment, but probably not directly associated with what I do. But something that interests me a lot is how you can improve recruitment, which for us is selection. So I've been looking at a number of different sports, baseball, football, cricket about what what sort of data what sort of other measurements are they using to get this selection right.
Paul Barnett 04:52
Find anything that was interesting that caught your eye
Eddie Jones 04:57
A lot of things you A lot of people are doing a lot of good work, but it always, always comes back to, you know, what's the evidence? So what's your game? What is the game? What What do you need the players to do to play that game well?, so there there are some key aspects. And then secondly, you know, name the character the plays and getting that down to the character, right. So it always comes back to that and there are different ways of getting that that information now. So a couple of good small ideas there to add to the pot mate.
Paul Barnett 05:32
what's interesting you talk about character because I hear you talking a lot about psychology and how that's playing a bigger and bigger role in in rugby coaching. I had a great interview with Corinne Reed, who I know you brought into your, your program very successfully. Could you talk a little bit about how you're using psychology and how it's affecting your role as a coach?
Eddie Jones 05:57
Well, I don't think it's it's actually changed at all, I think it's just become more more spoken about, I think you think about all the great coaches in the past, they've always understood their teams, they've always understood their players. Maybe the the manner you did it was less sophisticated than it is now because you could be more upfront a bit more in your face. Now, it's definitely more complex, because the learning approaches of each of the generations is changing quickly. More so than before, say, your ability to be able to capture a group where you've got guys from the age of 32, to 18, who have got completely different ideas of how they want to learn and how they do learn. And, and, and, and try to get the same message through has become much more challenging. A lot you have to put a lot more work into that area than you used to you're used to you have to get up get a whiteboard, write the three points on the right Boys Boys we're right, right, let's get into it and and generally capture enough players to get it right. And now you've got to be able to present that information in three or four different ways. Consult the players on it, discuss it with the players make sure they've had an input, which it's you know probably made catching a lot more interesting, because it's less about just the energy and, and the drive of the coach and more about how you can create a more cohesive environment. Yeah, so psychology is massive mate. But the other thing that also strikes me is that and all the great coaches have said that, you know, people like Ric Charlesworth to Alex Ferguson. Its how you establish relationships with players like they've got to remember conversations you've had. If you They don't remember the conversations, the conversations are meaningless[PB3] . Like I did a podcast with Joe Roff on Thursday, great player, laziest bloke I ever coached, but brilliant player, and I loved him. But he ya know, I like my teams to train hard. And he was sort of the opposite of that he recalled a conversation this like this now 30 years ago, and it shows you the power of emotion. He said, we're training for a test match on Saturday and on Wednesday, I went up to him, I said, mate, we're going to give you tommorrow off because we want you to be at your best for the saturday, you're looking a little bit tired. And he said he walked away from that and immediately felt Geez, I got to play well on saturday, because I have owe this bloke. And yeah, just shows you 30 a conversation small conversation. 30 years ago, a player remembers that because you're showing care. Now other times it might be digging a bit deeper. But if you can even get that emotional knit with a player, then you got to you've got a chance of having a positive effect. And yeah, I've never you spoke about Corinne Reed I've never met someone who is so able to pick up the threads of a room so quickly. incredible mate. I felt embarrassed being in the same room as her, I really did make she is scary how good she is
Paul Barnett 09:26
What did you take away then from your time with Corinne what stayed with you?
Eddie Jones 09:31
Ah, just how much you have to keep working on on your observation skills of picking up picking out what's not being said. picking up where the conflicts are picking up where the potential conflicts are. And sometimes you dig a screwdriver into where there's a potential conflict because every team is full of conflicts because you've got it doesn't matter whether you're playing cricket or or baseball or netball. You Got a group of people or selling beer, you got a group of people who all have different wants and needs and you're trying to get them to the same thing. So at any one stage, there's some sort of conflict going on in your ability to define that conflict or help the players resolve that conflict and move to a more cohesive state is a is a is a special art and and you just got to keep working on it. Even when you think your team's going well, you've got to be even harder and looking for those conflicts.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 10:33
You've talked a lot about conflict, especially in relation to younger players. Just not not having the skills to communicate and resolve conflict as people you know, 5 or 10 years old and then is there any Top Tips you've got on how to mine for it how you know you said push the screwdriver in?
Eddie Jones 10:53
Look, I don't have any tips. I don't have any solutions. I've got a few ideas. Look I think they do have the ability, but they're just not encouraged to use it anymore. You know? If, if my daughter's 27 so I wanted to be brought up like, like me, you know, I wanted to be tough and just get on with it. And I worked out she wasn't. Now when she has children, her kids, again, to have an even more praise full environment, which is the way kids are being brought up. not wrong, or right. So their ability to accept that sometimes things aren't going to be right is the difficult part. And I think it's, it's the ability to be able to teach them better doesn't always have to be fun, and you don't always have to be happy. And at times, there are difficult situations but there's a fun to and the fun to sticking at something doing it well. And then achieving. I think it's almost you've always got to be conscious of the fact there's a fun there that you've got to let them have. [PB5] How many times do you hear people say, Are you happy now at the end of the conversation well, most of the time in rugby youre never happy because you because the other team is trying to belt you and you're trying to belt them. That's not Yeah, unless you're something that that maybe should be in a horror movie. It's not a way of having happiness. But out of playing rugby, well, you can have such great fun. And it's teaching players about how do you find that fun to have, how do you understand fun to is something that you've got to stick at, it's going to at times going to be uncomfortable at times, there's going to be bits and pieces where you don't like, and you just keep on trying to find ways to get it through[PB6] . I think part of that is giving them more ownership of the problem, then then probably traditionally we've done like we'll, we'll definitely and this one thing we picked out from Corrine rather than trying to solve a player's problem we'll give the player almost the problem entirely and and encourage them to work out the problem now we'll give them advice. And guide, but the problems is their problem, not our problem. So say a player's got a problem with his consistency of his of his performance, you know, traditionally a Coach would be trying to find ways to help him be more consistent. Now, we certainly take the approach Well, you're inconsistent how are you going to solve it. Now if you need some help, we can help you. But that's your problem. Because you're going to make ultimately you're going to make the choice, not us, we're not going to make the choice for you, you're going to make the choice. So I hope that makes a bit of sense.[PB7]
Paul Barnett 13:36
Makes a lot of sense. It makes any sense to you. I think it's very similar in the corporate world. We have a full time psychologist on staff as well. And that person helps you understand the individuals that you've got working for you and and work through the best way to engage with them too.
Eddie Jones 13:52
Yeah, yeah.
Paul Barnett 13:54
Eddie can I take you back a little bit to Japan. In when I was reading about the time when you went there I was fascinated to see how, when you took took over, you went back to the samurai culture and you read about it and you engage that you came up with the values of trust, hard work and discipline as being touchstones for the team. And, and that seemed to work because it was such a great period in Japanese rugby. So from that context, if someone was out there, and they were setting up a new team culture, what are the things that you tell them to do first?
Eddie Jones 14:29
That's a great question.
Eddie Jones 14:32
I've got some again, I've got some ideas. I think Firstly, you've always got to look at the history of the organization. So when I go to a country, I look at the history of the country, what's been important for the country to be successful? Are there some underlying values or qualities that are consistent in the behavior of the people and that are important to people like, yeah, you'll work with a Japanese company and one Things Japanese companies are massive on is respect. you got to be respectful to the people you work with respectful to competitors. And and yeah, another part of that apart from my wife is Japanese. They're the most punctual people in the world. So I'll just give you one example with the Japan team. So we had 29 Japanese players and six New Zealand players. So we'd have a meeting at five o'clock at quarter to five almost by by clockwork, the Japanese players have been there with their night books ready to go. Yeah. We're ready for the meeting. The New Zealand players come in anytime from five minutes to one minute to 30 seconds before the meeting. Because that's how they're educated. Yeah, it's five o'clock we'll be there at five and so you immediately had a discord between the team. So to get cohesion in in in punctuality that to tell that to the New Zealand players doesn't strike a chord to tell that to the Japanese players come here at five doesn't strike a chord. So immediately punctuality was something where we could drive cohesion. So I gave the New Zealand players a schedule that had had the had the meeting 15 minutes earlier all the time. And then the players sat together because they were in in at the same time, and immediately we had more cohesion. So it's, it's mining for things that are really important. Yeah, another thing just in Japan, I always find people who are going to be successful in Japan, foreigners tend to want to use chopsticks, because they understand how important a meal is in Japan. And if you make the make the choice to try to learn to eat with chopsticks, you immediately become more part of their culture. So you're looking for things where you can be can really drive at home and absolutely non negotiable. And then then you're looking for things that need to change because tradition can be powerful and positive. And it also can be, can be negative and you want to change those negative things like in Japan they train, they'd traditionally train for four or five hours a day, no big deal for like, how can you train four or five hours rugby? I couldn't think of what to do. So how can we change that? So we I said to the players, we're going to train at a certain percentage as soon as you drop down that certain percentage will finish because you trainings about giving 100% and I remember one of the first sessions I did I'll give Suntory a plug since you are with Ashahi I deal with some Suntory. I said for the next 10 minutes, we got to be 100% and after one minute a player stopped being 100% and I finished the session. Sent him home and said to him go and sell beer dont come to training anymore made it over exaggerated the problem and immediately I got a behavior change in the group that we train for shorter periods but at the intensity we needed to train for is no longer three hour sessions, shorter sessions where we train with a far greater application, which then resulted in them playing better.
Paul Barnett 18:22
I want to talk about tradition then if I can, because you you, it's a great story to illustrate how you've picked up on, you know, cultural cues to get closer to your team. But when you got into England, you talked about the team having a fear of failure within the players. And I'm really interested to know how you got them to move beyond that and embrace you know, a different mindset.
Eddie Jones 18:46
Well, again, I was an Aussie looking in on the English side who I played some club rugby and coached a little bit so I had an understanding of how the rugby landscape worked in England and yeah, the media is powerful in England. The papers are absolutely ferocious, you know, say you're either the best thing that's ever been made, or you You're hopeless, and there's nothing in between. So the players openly talked about now and I heard it from more from football players who found it even more when they went to the England side. All they wanted to do was not be the scapegoat. So they're always dealing with the fact they didn't want to be the one that made the mistake. And then I got there, spoke to a few of the players who were openly honest. And they reinforced that when they came England, they wanted to be safety first, they didn't want to fail. It was all about just being nice and safe. How did I overcome it? Well, I don't think I have but we're getting there. Because those sort of deep seeded problems you don't solve quickly. Yeah, you manipulating, changing and moving in the right direction, but you can always go back. But what we've concentrated on these being England, what are we good at? What are we going to do as a team as England and also just really driving the message about the only noise that's important is the noise within the room. That noise outside the room, as as much as it might influence people, you've got to avoid that noise. And you know, and I've heard Belichick the great American football coach speak about that consistently and its so true. I saw a great press conference with Nick Saban. Have you heard of him? I think he coached one of the university teams. Michigan, he was at all he was at Michigan. And he said all the time, I'm just trying to get the poison out of their heads. You guys are trying to put the poison in their in their heads. I'm trying to take it out. And it's but it's true[PB8] . Yeah. Because The media wants either great success or great failure, most of time sporting teams, they rarely is the difference between winning and losing is about 3%. And you're always around that line. And and, and your job as a coach is to get them above the line as much as you can. Yeah. And in most cases, if you get above 60% of the time, you're doing really well, the 70% you're doing extraordinary. Well, 80% your flying. And then if you're the PSG coach who was the who was won the Champions League, Bayern Munich he's winning at 91% like he is he's on top of the world. But you're know that as soon as you get on top. There's somewhere to fall.
Paul Barnett 21:42
We had a chat a couple of weeks ago with Lisa Alexander who finished her career with an 81% winning record. And yet, you know, she was finished by a Netball Australia, even with that impressive winning record, so it's a great reminder, as you've said, You're only ever five or six games away from getting the sack.
Paul Barnett 22:02
I'd like to talk about that actually Eddie. Because you've had times in your career where you actually, you know, been sacked. You've had a great ups and downs and you've traveled the world. And I was really interested actually in 98 when you would the Brumbies because you're looking at your history, you'd been with randwick, you had some success. you'd gone out to Japan, it had gone well, and you came back to the Brumbies which I imagined was, you know, was a big step up. And it didn't go so well, you know, in that first season. And then it got better in subsequent years. But I'm imagining at the end of that first season, you must have had some self doubt. And I'm really interested to understand how you dealt with it, and whether you've got any advice for others on dealing with self doubt.
Eddie Jones 22:48
Yeah, I do remember it really well. I can remember a game in Cape Town we played against the Stormers and so we got beaten 28 to 3, something like that. And we tried hard, but got absolutely belted, it was like men against boys. I remember going back to my room and just lying on the bed and thinking, what have I got myself into here? And I went that night, drove out, went and sat on a beach. It's probably not a good idea in Cape Town by yourself. So I'm lucky I'm still here. And just thought about right well, I've got to come up with a plan. We're going to do things differently. And and that was the I can still remember that night was the catalyst of of what we did with the brumbies. So I thought, right, where cant we compete? Where can we compete, and we couldn't and and we couldn't compete physically, but we could compete the smart so we then we started develop this smart game[PB9] . So the big thing I reckon is, is, is doing really good reflection. be as honest as you can, where you are, what you're good at and what you're not good at. And then you've got to get a group of people around you to help drive it. So then in that winter, I can remember after we finished super rugby which at that time was a summer sport spending that winter, in cafes in Canberra, with a number of the players and particularly Rod Kafer, who was one of the significant architects of how we restructured our game. We just countless pages and pages of thoughts about how you're going to resurrect the brumbies. And so we stuck at it and I remember the next season. We lost the first three games. So now, like the roof starting to fall in a bit heavier the rains coming through. You're looking for a dry spot. There's not too many. But you've just got to you've got to because when you are on the right spot because what had happened at the end of that Super Rugby season, there was a thing called the Ricoh Cup, which is basically New South Wales, Queensland and the brumbies playing in the competition without the Wallabies. I remember, we played against New South Wales and we went out there and started playing our new like smart strategic rugby and we led 14 nil after 10 minutes, and that was beautiful rugby, blew them off the park, but we weren't good enough at that stage to sustain it. So ended up getting beaten by a big score, but there were a few guys in the dressing room knew we're on the right track. So you've got to keep believing and to do that you've got to have a good crew people around you. You've got to keep reflecting, and you got to keep adapting your plan.
Paul Barnett 25:24
And of course, he did go on to win in 2001.
Paul Barnett 25:26
The first team outside of New Zealand to win. I'd like to talk about onfield leadership, Eddie, because you made a very unpopular decision back when you chose Dylan Hartley. But you talked about, you've always talked about the importance of onfield leadership. And I'm really interested to hear what advice you have for other coaches on choosing the right captain.
Eddie Jones 25:26
Yeah,
Eddie Jones 25:53
Yeah, well, I remember when when we picked Dylan I had a great CEO Ian Ritchie. He was very supportive. He got literally stacks of letters from private schools saying they got to stop playing rugby. Because Dylan was this thug who played rugby, but in fact, all of all of his misdemeanors that come with playing for his club and none have been with England. But how do you pick your leader? As a coach, you got to know who you are. So what do you need to compliment you? Because the two of you together have got to be a complementary team. And so if youre a coach that's strong and likes to talk a lot and likes to dominate and then you dont need a captain is going to be the same. You need someone who's quieter. Does it behind the scenes. If you're a social coach, you dont need a captain again is a social guy, so you need to find a complimentary match and you need the captain the most important thing is that he will influence the team in a good way doesn't have to be perfect. It's very rare that you find the captain thats great on the field and off the field, they're generally great at one and then you've got to surround him with the necessary resources to complement the areas hes not strong at. And don't be afraid to get it wrong. That's the other thing. But pick someone who complements you, who's got a ability to influence the team in the right direction. [PB10] And for us at that stage for England, it was about we needed a real sort of guy that could get around the dressing room pull people together. So Dylan was like that. He was a bit of a knock about you know, out of Rotarua . Left home when he was 16/17. Used to be in the academy at Worcster. Used to steal food from the from the kitchen to feed himself, but he was that sort of bloke, resourceful and it meant a lot for him play for England. So he wanted to bring people together and he wanted to be successful so he could influence people. But don't be afraid to be wrong. But have a clear thought about yourself as a coach and what you need as a captain the compliment.
Paul Barnett 28:21
Eddie, you talk about being you know, there's this tension in coaching, which is building relationships with players that's close enough to know what they want to engage with them, as you talked about earlier, but you've also got to be able to stand back and be dispassionate and make decisions for the greater good of the team. How do you find that line? And do you have any advice or any learnings around finding that line and making sure you don't overstep?
Eddie Jones 28:48
I think one of the greatest piece of advice I ever got my fingers might have been from Wayne Bennett, the great rugby league coach is still catching now. He said, just remember they're never your friend, the players. And it's and it's so true, you've always got to have that, that respectful relationship with them that there's there's almost an undrawn line between you and the players, where, you're close enough to know what they need but you're not close enough for the emotion of, of the relationship to affect your judgment. And, and you can and that that line can move because sometimes you need to be closer to them. And sometimes you need to be further away. And your ability to judge almost whether you need to go in the sauna or whether you need to go in the ice bath, check the temperature of the team and know what they need. But it's a moveable feat, but you've always got to have that little bit way where maybe that they are not quite sure what you're thinking. Like it's good that the people say you got to have clarity, where you do but you need that little bit where they're not quite sure what what what's there. And that's I reckon you know that it's that beautiful relationship between having some conflict and having cohesion? That it's just like, you know, do I put a bit more hydrochloric acid in? Or do I need a bit bit sodium in there, it's knowing what to do. And, again, I'd say for any coach out there, don't be afraid to get that wrong. You've got to make mistakes. The only way you're learning coaching is to make mistakes. And the only way you never know how good a coaches you are, is when you lose three games in a row. And that's when you find out about yourself. You haven't case until you've done that. And then then then you know what you're about.[PB11]
Paul Barnett 30:42
You said in one interview recently to being a coach is about adjusting players limitations. Can you share some examples of where you've successfully taken a player adjusted their limitations and move them forward?
Eddie Jones 30:57
Ah, well, I think Again, I recommend the big change in coaching now is that probably when I first came in the coaching I always wanted to fix players weak areas I always wanted to improve their weak areas, and now i would almost entirely focused on the strength of how can I make that strength better. And it's, it's the big thing I reckon in terms of coaching for any player because all the players you coach, they generally want to be better. And if they don't want to be better, you don't want them is getting a picture in their head of of where what they can be, and then helping them find the way to get there. [PB12] So I remember Steve Larkin is probably one of the most gifted rugby players the worlds seen. He had this it was bloody annoying. Yeah, because he was a perfect player, but he turned the ball over at least twice a game, and I couldn't work out why So then I really sat down. And watched his games clearly and it was every time he ran right to left, he tried offline with his left arm, but he always do a one handed whereas when he ran to the right, he always offline with two hands. So he hadn't recognized as a player, but the good players, all I had to do was show him that right to lift off load and that left to right off load, got a picture in his head of what was wrong, and that that ceased to be a problem. Yeah, so you always got to find a way to show the players a problem. And and most the time, theyll work out the solutions themselves. But again, the use of emotion there I think is really important. Because you've got a tinge sometimes you got to tinge that with emotion. Right? Yeah. George Smith always tells a story about when he's a young guy coming through. He liked a beer George Smith and as he you know, he got 19, 20, 21. He's played for Australia. He's won Super Rugby with the Brumbies so he s a bit of a hit around town you know so people wanted to take him for beers, he had this long hair and he was a bit of a jack around the town and he was starting to put on a little bit of weight. Yeah, he's t shirts got bigger. He was pulling out his t shirt more to hide his weight. And I got him in one day and I just said to him I said mate, you got a decision to make here. You either stop drinking, or you're train harder. But this time I'm gonna make the decision for you. Because you're not going to stop drinking. And then he trained hard and then you hear these stories even at 38 four watts Yeah, that ever night out and he'd be the first in the gym the next day and train hard and because whilst you gave him the solution, then it was a it was a conversation he'll remember the rest of his life so you change the way he thinks about things and it has a lasting effect on them.
Paul Barnett 33:59
I can see in the background there, you've got evolve or die written on the planner. I want to give away any any secrets. But is that a theme you're taking it the minute
Eddie Jones 34:10
at the moment. Yeah. Because what's happened? I think, yeah, sports going to change considerably over this next period of time and I think there's a great opportunity because everyone's starting at ground zero again. It's almost like the whole world's been taken back to, to the base and and teams are literally and players and literally starting again so there's this great opportunity this moment to really evolve what you're doing as a team in terms of your training in terms of the game in terms of the way you operate. And that relates to coaches to you know, you've got to you've got to keep thinking about right How can I evolve myself as a coach, how can I keep getting better as a coach, and unless you do that you are going to die[PB13] ?
Paul Barnett 34:57
Eddie, perseverance resilience, i dont know, whatever you want to call it, it's such a part of your own story and the way that you've kept going despite setbacks, you know, and you said that you wrote your book to help young rugby coaches realize they don't have to be perfect. You know, they don't have to be to be successful. They don't need to be striving for perfection. So what advice do you have for other coaches on persevering?
Eddie Jones 35:22
Well, there's a great book mate. courage to be disliked is written by Japanese guy. It's that psychology theorist Adler I think it is. And it's all about the fact that never used one of the one of the things that comes out of the book is never use you your background or what's happening in your life as an excuse for what you do in the future. And I think for me, that's it like, yeah, I came out of matches or high eastern suburbs of, of Sydney. We had 30% Aboriginal kids out of my year we had two kids go to university. One was another boy and myself. Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't academically driven. And I'm coaching England now. Like it's almost like how can you do that from the eastern suburbs of Sydney? From a working class. Because if if you have a desire to be good at something and you apply yourself to it, then you're going to get success now success can look in a number of ways. Now I could still be a coach at randwick and be coaching their third grade and be developing players and that's successful. Now I've been lucky enough to coah at the international level had wins had losses. But they've been able to keep keep building on their career and I think you can do that at any level and never let your background or, or what's happened to you to be an excuse for not going forward
Paul Barnett 36:57
It's funny, you talking about your background because I believe in High school you went with the Ella Brothers?
Eddie Jones 37:04
Yeah, we won everything mate but it was a joke, we played rugby as though the game was being reinvented I've never seen three guys with almost, they used to talk about this telepathic connection that they throw the ball and the other one to turn up and those the three of them was say different personality wise. Mark was quite driven. And you seen. Mark was the most successful players basically dropped out of public life. Glen was more was probably more talented than Mark but a larrikan you know, loved loved life and he's he's constantly in some sort of trouble or something but done had done some great coaching jobs and then Gary who's is a much more seriously younger one the serious one yet he wasn't fed as much as the other two is that the fight his way become a great advocate for aboriginal quality, works for the local council. I think he's on the World Cup Committee for the 2027 World Cup and he is a man of great stature. That they were just, playing with those guys, we won every cricket game every rugby game. So he got used to winning, which was, so you're in, you know, fairly disadvantage type area but we had this, we had this almost luck to be to think winning was normal. And it's definitely helped me in terms of my coaching. Because I don't accept anything less than winning. And what I mean by winning is, is that you're doing everything you can to be at your best. Sometimes the result goes your way. Sometimes it doesnt. But if you're doing everything you can, if you're doing good practice all the time, then then, you know you're going to be successful.[PB14]
Paul Barnett 38:57
If I could take you back to that young School Teacher whose coaching Randwick, late 20s, early 30s I think you were back then what advice if you had that person in the room with you now? What advice would you give them?
Eddie Jones 39:13
Be patient, be humble. And keep working to your strengths. I think being humble is the hardest thing when you win. And I think understanding it's not only for your team but for yourself that every time you have won, that weakness immediately comes in the environment and and use the strength is not to accept that you're going to have that weakness and to keep working hard to be better.
Paul Barnett 39:51
And perhaps just one last question, Eddie. And it's the legacy question and I know it's a difficult one, but what is the legacy you want to leave as a coach?
Eddie Jones 40:04
I don't want to leave anything. You know I'm not I don't think that's my role. But what I'd like to think is a would be kids in any part of rugby environment that if they're not good enough as a player to play for the country they think they they they can aspire to be good enough to coach their country and that was my drive you know, [PB15] I wanted to play for my country. I wanted to be Ian Chappell in cricket and I wanted to be the starting Hooker for the Wallabies. I wasn't good enough to do either though so I ended up I ended up that drive me to coach because I thought I could do something to to help the game. And that's what I'd like to think the kids out there think well, you can do this. But let's let's be as good a player as we can be, If I cant be as good as I want to be in terms of, of making teams and then look to add to the game through coaching.
Paul Barnett 41:01
Eddie Jones it's been a privilege to talk to you today. Thank you so much for carving out a bit of your time. We appreciate it and best of luck for the season ahead.
Eddie Jones 41:10
Thanks very much good to chat to you mate, cheers