Ep 008 - István Görgényi
Thu, 10/22 9:32AM • 48:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, coach, game, team, play, understand, territory, water polo, win, scored, prepared, center, gold medal, read, hunting, final, defense, tournament, referees, confederation cup
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Transition, István Görgényi, Intro, Cameron Schwab, Jim Woolfrey
Intro 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast. To me, being perfect is not about that scoreboard after this is a chance. You can understand the dressing, you can work towards a common goal. We are all on the same team. Now you do it to the issue of focus on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again. It's got to be better. We've known great moments are born. Great opportunity.
István Görgényi 00:33
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's Podcast, where we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. Our great coach on this show is Dr. East van garganey. He's been represented hungry as a water polo player 96 times and was a member of teams that won the silver medal at the 1972 Munich Olympics and the gold medal at the 1973 World Championships. From 1984 to 1990. He was head coach of whoop chest in the Hungarian National League, leading them to a championship in 1986. From 1991 to 1994. He was head coach of sessio nice Water Polo Club in the French National League winning the championship three times. He then moved to Australia, and in 1998 was appointed the Australian Women's National Water polo team head coach. That team went on to win the inaugural waterpolo Gold Medal for women at the 2000 Sydney Olympics. In 2004. He retired from coaching and set up a consultancy based on his hunting territory philosophy, which he created based on more than 20 years of research into team dynamics, group performance is fine is articulate and friendly. And as a psychotherapist brings deep insight into the dynamics that exist within teams. There are many, many highlights from our conversation. But the one that was most special to me was receiving the gold medal game from the Sydney 2000 Olympics that I was lucky enough to be at. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Van garganey.
Transition 02:15
The great coaches podcast.
István Görgényi 02:18
So it's fun. It's very nice to meet you. Where are you today? in Budapest? And how is things in Budapest?
István Görgényi 02:29
Yeah, it's actually like it midway through the going back to this blockage. I'm afraid it's starting back again. Well, otherwise, it's really nice.
István Görgényi 02:48
Let's talk about something more interesting then, which is I know, which is your coaching. I'd like to talk about your coaching philosophies. And you I think you've got such a fascinating story to tell, I've been looking forward to this interview, ever since I came across your work. But I'd actually like to just start with a really high level question because you've played and coached water polo all over the world. And you started in the 1980s when the world was a very different place. And of course, the last 10 years or plus you've been working with corporations. So I'd like to ask you with this background. What is it you think that great coaches do differently?
István Görgényi 03:32
You know, I studied quite a lot of things due to the my research for the hunting territory method and the difficulty is that what you read our needs so it's it's not really a thing I spoke to some great athletes with great coaches and the athletes told me that the book about the autobiography of their coach was like a Roman over and over. And they were laughing get it they really admired the coach, I don't have the name. But they told that the story was totally different. So coaches who really pay attention to players and to, to the process, what's going on, in the training field as well as, as in the games. They are the best coaches, they can talk all sorts of things. They can be very emotional, they can be very brave there, they can be selfish. But what they really do is paying attention to their players and understanding what's going on the beach and also having a vision about the game and being consequent enough to make Things happen, and giving feedbacks and building, team and play[PB1] . I can tell some examples, really contradicting examples from football. You might understand Alex Ferguson, and as the event get totally different personalities. And both of them were great coaches. And Ferguson might be famous about his stamp temper. But really the keys on story and stories about him eating and watching or following their teams, because he did about three different teams during this 25 years of amazing carrier. He was very, very caring about the players. And he be the core team, which he was able to be the the team around. So he had core players who really understood his philosophy who were working with him who admired him. But I can tell Phil Jackson is the same example with very cautious and understanding coaching philosophy. Actually, probably he is the closest to me, if I may say I'm not as famous as he is that I was a psychotherapist as well, a group and family therapy, very similar to what his is done before. So I have the quite the same understanding. I even use some tactical things, he used the triangle offense, which was a tactics and the team building tool in the same time. So I don't know whether it's enough for you or I can tell other names, but I think it's enough.
István Görgényi 07:06
No it's perfect. I wanted to talk about tactics, actually, because you coached the gold medal team in the Sydney 2000 Olympics. And I would like to say that I was there that day watching. And I was there I was there. I was living in Sydney at the time. And I was I was in the stadium and I was the energy was amazing, especially when you when when the team dragged you into the water at the end. Remember, there was such joy in the stadium that day. But I was looking back through the articles and I found this quote from from you where you said the team didn't win because of tactics. It was because we prepared for 16 months, and the team played a very conscious game and supported each other. So I wanted to ask you in teamwork waterpolo what is the role of the coach?
István Görgényi 07:55
I[PB2] think every read the role is the coach to prepare the players you were asking about philosophy, you have to prepare the players for long, long time and also to have them through a competition. But they have to play the game you can you can see coaches screaming and yelling at the and the side of the beach. But the players don't hear it. So if you don't didn't prepare the team they have to react in in seconds even very short times and immediately so you can you have to teach patterns they understand. So they all play the same. They all know the same language of the game I used to say to my players that the game is like jazz everyone has to play the tune and one player can always improvise but if everyone improvise is is like a cacophony so so what you do you really teach all your various art tools together with the team I save the record because the players are your partners they know extremely value their their craft, and you have to appreciate their knowledge and then they will appreciate you. That's that's my philosophy. On the very first day when I selected the team, it was a tournament. We organized a meeting after the tournament where we announced the 20 players who they selected. And I have a presentation prepared with videos with designs. About the game I wanted to play about the even more Some biomechanic details, I wanted to change their body position in the water in order to be able to play the mobile game I was a fanatic of. And I told and I want don't want to rely on referees, I don't want to play for exclusions. What I want is a spectacular game where we have to score action goals. So we don't rely on the referees, you know, in water polo is quite significant thing. And actually, that happened, we scored a lot of decisive action goals. And what I've done, for example, you talk about tactics, from the very first training games and competition games, tournament games, I used game analysis together in the team. So it wasn't a presentation was a discussion, I use the game analysis as a catalyst for discussion. And they understood this approach. At the beginning, obviously, they didn't talk that much. But after they could, they saw that it wasn't reprimanded if someone didn't agree with me. And so what we did some months before, we edited the opposition teams, games, defense, offense, extra men defense x men offense, and we gave it to small groups, and they had to come up with tactics. And they did come up with tactics. And I could, practically wasn't able to add anything because they realized what they had to play. So we went to the Olympics with quite deep knowledge about what we had to play. Obviously, I had that role. We had short briefs, and we had feedbacks. And I had the luxury of changing the team around. So it was pretty thorough, and it was really something we did together.
Paul Barnett 12:17
I had this quote I found in one of the newspapers from that, and you said, You told the team, don't focus on the goal because it blinds you. And when you're blinded, you'll miss the necessary steps that lead to the gold. And I thought it was a great quote, because it's about focusing on the process, not the outcome. And I wonder if you could just give your thoughts and maybe some advice to other coaches on focusing on the process first.
István Görgényi 12:42
Yeah, actually, this this quote was in a book, some months before the it was published in a book, some months before the games, they asked me to write a quote, and I am amazed to read it. But really, that was my philosophy, because I knew that teams who would talk about winning something all the time they got paralyzed. And what I say that it's absolutely true for me, other coaches talking about really goal is and it doesn't mean that they don't mean, but I wanted them to understand the details of the game, the details of that, our roles. And this is something the Atlantic territory is about. So when I advise corporate teams, I involve them into self analysis and self serve diagnosis, almost like game analysis is fun.
István Görgényi 13:41
You're fascinating, because you were a very accomplished player, you lead a team to a gold medal. But you also as a scientist, and a research had developed hunting territory theory, which is used so widely today in sport, it's probably not known as that name, but it is everywhere. Could you talk a little bit about the theory and how you apply it to to understanding team performance?
István Görgényi 14:14
I'm amazed how much you prepared for this talk or discussion, and I am very proud that you did. And it's very interesting what you're saying because obviously, you know the name david back in, who is a hero in AFL. And my first appearance in the Australian Sports Science stage was that I was in Melbourne and Peter Spence who was the program manager, the V is invited me to give a presentation on hunting territory. Or the first year that I was in Australia. I wasn't the national co chair and he invited me The professional team coaches, and some other coaches to the Wii is to my presentation and it became a series of 11 lectures. And David back in who just won the AFL guy for some months before. And the competition, the next competition, he didn't even start, he attended the first meeting. And from then on, he was amazing. Actually, he came to that final you were at, and he wrote me the most beautiful congratulation letter I ever received. And saying that that was his biggest sport experience. Which wasn't truth, I think, because he won a final as a player with cotton and as a coach as well. So I don't think it can be comparable with the water polo.
Paul Barnett 15:55
There was a lot of energy that day there was there was something very special about that team. So I can understand why the famous the iconic David Parkin might have said that and I can, I can close my eyes and remember being there.
István Görgényi 16:14
Still, because that 15,000 people was the same as hundred thousand footballs open football stadium, because I couldn't hear my own voice. But returning back to the back, and he told me, I think on the third or fourth session that I didn't say much, which was, he wouldn't have used. But if he saw the big picture and the system at once what he didn't know it just leave things by common sense. And actually, I think it's common sense. And it was I was loud and proud that he said that. But he became very close. And I could actually give him amazing feedbacks during this time. So yes, hunting territories used by the good coaches because they they systematically thinking so they see the big picture, they see the role of players relationships, and the can read the good and wrong patterns from a group dynamics point of view as well.[PB3]
István Görgényi 17:29
Could you explain it for us just perhaps for people that don't know anything about it? Describe it.
István Görgényi 17:35
So the thing is that the team on the beach is a system they the players relationships? Not that whether they like each other or not that how much they appreciate each other how much they read each other's movements. It's very important because if players want Why is it hunting territory, because it equalizes the fact that we are territory enemas. And in elite sport is he even more true because players are really very territorial, they want to be exceptional, they want to be the best. They want to score the most laws and so on. But if they are locked into themselves, which is a the tunnel vision is that is characteristics of the selfishness sort of on the if if you really just focus on yourself, it means that you don't need others, other players movements, so you would give short passes or too long or too early or too late passes. So the team is not working well. You might be the best player on the pitch, but the team is not functioning, particularly now in these total games. So a player has to play attack a defense midfield in the same time, it means that it's really crucial that he read The game also[PB4] , you mentioned at the beginning that you understood the hierarchy the importance of the hierarchy. And it is very important that if if at the top of the hierarchy, Sam, stars Amelia stars who don't perform well, the team wouldn't win. And if you don't appreciate the players who might not be spectacular, early on the top of the hierarchy like NAS tower HIV who had the game to game players or are the quality game makers Then Then you won't appreciate that three or four months and you won't give them the same freedom as you would give you to, to a Messi or Ronaldo. And they need that that freedom as well. Plus, they have to be your real partners and seem as the as the middle of the defense who are calling the defense, and people don't know they are calling it but they do. And if you don't give them trust, then then the defense we collapse, or they don't appreciate their contribution. So you really have to think in system where you realize the importance of all of the players. And even in our attack, if you play every game to the your key player, it will be very, very, very easy for the opposition to block your attack because all they focus on the past is given to that particular player, so he won't be able to perform on the big games. But if you allow the team to play a more free attack, for example, I mentioned the triangle offense that that and that it had not just the technical importance, but also the group dynamic group dynamic importance as well. So if Michael Jordan got the ball in defense, he had to pass it to someone. And then he might have received or might not have received, it meant that other players had opportunities to shoot as well. And when this whole thing started v Jackson toe to two, Michael Jordan, do you want to be the best player of the vert or you want to win a competition? and Jordan said, Yes, I want to win then pass the bloody ball towards Phil Jackson. And he said, I would pass but they can't shoot. And then if he Jackson told him that that's my job that he would be able to score as well. And he did that. So he had an amazing t balance. If you like basketball, you know what I'm talking about. And that this is the balance. So there are games, which weren't we won by Michael Jordan added, other games have evolved by him. And that game and amazing balance to the team. And this is what what I did as well, my key players scored the winning goal. Bridget ghostess and against the Russians, but she didn't score. On the final, she scored one, but it wasn't allowed. But she buys then she she threw defense on herself. And she did a lot of things which aren't spectacular. But other players were able to score and that's why we won.
Paul Barnett 23:13
It's fun. I watched a great TED Talk where you use your hunting territory theory to explain what happened on the Deepwater Horizon rig
István Görgényi 23:24
You ae amazing. That's a great example.
Paul Barnett 23:28
It's a wonderful story. And I'm going to put a link in the show notes because it explains how the teams that are competing with each other rather than CO coalescing around the same goal can can really cause catastrophe. But I actually when I was also preparing, I rediscovered your work through a video where you described what happened to the Brazil 2006 soccer team when they spectacularly failed. And I wondered whether you could just talk a little bit about your analysis and what you learnt about that team and why they failed.
István Görgényi 24:06
Yeah, I am completely amazed and honored that you did this deep research because for example, the bressi case, which was planned to be a movie and documentary. And I have I think 36 games between 2002 and 2006 what the aggressive team played because I did a thorough game analysis about the dynamics of the team. And we started to make that movie with an English company and be very able to raise 80,000 pounds so the whole project failed. Even if it could be still a sensational story because it didn't age it. So It was very interesting because they won the 2002 cap with a great team play. And also with the other Ronaldo, who was the perhaps the best attacker but back that time and he played extremely well on the final and then the lifeforce going gone and other players became key players on that on like Ronaldinho, Kaka and some other players. And also there were some great players like zero bateau and some others who had a creepy role in in those games, and no one recognize they're all in it in them. And in 2005, there was a a confederation cup where the coach didn't take the older players, three, three great players were missing. And the coach took a young team, which played a magnificent, glorious game winning four to one I think, in the finals against the good Argentina. So a new hierarchy emerged during those tournament, at least during the tournament. And on the top of it, it was Ronaldinho, and zero back to The David deleo, team, leaders. And donadio who was a very like a Mozart like player. He played an amazing team play he never ever did before. And he was a real leader and answer fish. And if you thoroughly watch the games, you can find you could find how well he had the team to play well. And then then the coach ignoring that a new team was born in 2005. And it brought back the old players. I don't know how to do what Steve struggling with an injury and even psychologically for individual reasons. And he wasn't physically prepared for the World Cup. And he made him again team captain putting the wrong idea in your head took it really badly. And they the players who want with a very strong team played the 2005 Confederation cup they're put into a system to roll around and run it the new who lost a lot of balls. No one wrote about it, but I can't read the last processions by him. So all what these great players Chi and Donati knew and then the others did the serving a poorly playing Girona Ronaldo and running back to cover for him. So they practically were even humiliated. Why ever and the reason for the pokers performance and it's an amazing story, because they all are the word I don't donado are not in your names was chosen because of Ronaldo by him. And they really adored him you couldn't read, blaming Kim during the whole tournament from the players and his playing team. Anyways, so the story is that if you ignore the higher the team process you were talking about earlier, then you don't realize how the team transforms during the period and you don't realize it then you kill it.
Paul Barnett 29:16
If you spoke to a coach who was taking over a new team, and that coach really wanted to improve the culture and the playing style of the team, what would you advise to them to do first?
István Görgényi 29:29
It's interesting, you're asking that when I went to France to coach katsanis. Before I took the position, I was invited for a discussion about the job. And then I went to games and with a small notebook, I was making notes during the game. So the players watched me very cautiously and it's not used in water polo. It wasn't used back then. And I made notes and I said started to have a clear view on the team who are the players that can be done? What are the hidden treasures in the team, what, what is the style they are able to play, which direction I have to move if I want to change something. So I had a quite clear vision on the team before I took that position. And I did the same thing with the Australian team[PB5] . Because it's also a part of the story in 98, January 98, The Verge championships, were in in Perth, and I was just the National Junior Men's coach back then. But I was testing by handling territory game analysis on games. So I analyzed seven teams, games, and including the Australian men's and women's team. And after the tournament, I was offered both positions, I had the luxury of choosing between the men's and the women's position. And everyone was surprised that I choose the women. Because in the nopalitos, the range, women's water polo wasn't really appreciated, and they didn't understand why I choose the women. But I saw the values of the women team and I saw the opposition teams as well. And I thought that there was a chance to win another with them because they've a very talented players, but they've fractured by rivalry and even, you know, the state rivalries. You know, in Australia, it's really bad. And the girls, some of the talented players rarely talk to each other. And I thought, Oh, that's I can fix it. And so that's I choose that, that the women team, then the men's team,
Paul Barnett 32:03
how did you fix it?
István Görgényi 32:05
That's it. Yeah, it seems that this is what is coming from from science, social psychiatric, that it's like you have a family to deal with, with. Mentally, I would say in person, although I never took them as persons, often it's just a behavior problem. But so you deal with the family, to make them understand the dynamics of the family that the patient may be just a scapegoat of family problems. And what you do that you create a dialogue within the family, which never happened before. And you you make them focus on each other to pay attention to each other values rather than failures or weaknesses. And this is what you do with the team as well. [PB6] And the weird thing was game analysis, because everyone everything is on the video, you know, when players come out from the water, they deny that the game by self justification, so they have a vision of the game, which which justify themselves, and it's not necessarily the truth. But when they start to look cautious, cautiously and thoroughly into the game videos, then they realize what really happened, and that they read or the story in their mind in order to justify their behavior or their performance. And it took it took some time, but then it isn't I talk too much, perhaps No,
Paul Barnett 34:01
no, it's, it's absolutely fascinating. I'm sorry, I'm trying to not talk self doesn't interrupt you.
István Görgényi 34:07
So I continue that because this is just one part of what you do in order to fix the problems. The other thing is that you have the opportunity to structure the team training. So I had stationary trainings in ski sessions and I would put players together who would never choose each other in small groups because they had tensions politically, I can tell the story of that. I had three great final forwards in the team. And coaches switch senate forests, so they changed me in order to keep a strong player in the center former position. So they need to play with each other and I thought it was a luxury. And actually I played that you can say type galore friends when I was playing I call it a verbal attack read the set of formats actually stopped providing space to the divers to get into the other center for us to get in and play with each other. And I didn't centralize the program because I thought that I have to leave the players to live in their families because they won't be able to continue their career as a professional player in humans water polo. So I didn't want to break their their life by centralizing for two years. And also, I thought that if I create three centers, which use my methods in Perth, please be in in Sydney, then I would be able to invoke invite and involve the juniors in the subsequent years. So rather than having too many chosen players, at the end, they wanted players involved into my programs with the center coaches, to use the methods I wanted them to us. And so anyways, because they begin to get it all the time, I sold it to Sydney Bay center forward with me to Perth, it would go there for three days. And we will chain and watch videos together and I would explain what I wanted from there. But also we had threes, they had to practice together in order to read each other moves understand each other, where they want the past two and a three them and those sorts of things. And, and I did several times that then I took the birth base center forward to Sydney and we did the same thing. And we had, we had the training camps as well. before the Olympics, we stay together like a residential kept for several months. And I used to practice these things regularly. So they got used to each other. They they started to appreciate each other we had little games, when I put them together when two or three players competed at a at a leader groups. And they badly wanted to win. So they had to play together, they didn't have a choice, you know, because if you don't mean, the whole team will tease you for a whole week. So it's more important in a team, like any competition game, because in their little word, they have to be the best. So I use all sorts of things, but it went for two years. So if you really wanted to change the relationship patterns, it's not a cognitive thing, a lot more than that.
Paul Barnett 38:02
You say it's not a cognitive thing, but often times athletes or high achieving athletes, and even high achieving coaches can really struggle with self doubt. And I'm interested to know, as both the coach and a psychotherapist, how you've helped your athletes do with self doubt.
István Görgényi 38:23
You know, if we prepared well, if you had challenges in training sessions in training games, you analyze the tournament games, that it didn't increase the data, it actually decreased it because they I could show them what they really did well, and I didn't even have to point it out. I had obviously I had the chance to edit the game so they could see what the leg is done well and the others as well. So it's actually gave them confidence. They could see that what we created to get it was working. And I had self doubt as well, like a coach, you might have a fast side but you show show to the outside world. But within it's really difficult you are under huge pressure and it's actually very, very lonely work being a head coach or an add on the company. It's very lonely.
Paul Barnett 39:30
I hear a lot of coaches talk about the imposter syndrome and how they feel even coaches that have been so successful. They talk about this imposter syndrome and I find it I guess I find it fascinating.
István Görgényi 39:43
They might not talk even talk about it because it's not something you would admit. But every morning and for example you we were at the corner waters where we trade north of Brisbane. Every morning at five o'clock or 530, I was walking on the beach. And you know, they are empty beaches, because so long is the course. And that's when I and even in the in the Olympic really jive with walk every morning by myself, and this is how you dress, redress yours for the next challenge, and fear. So I really supported the players. And also it was really it was realistic. I didn't tell them that you were great and fantastic what you're doing now, I just showed them how they improved. And it was a lot more than just telling card a good day. And also they didn't depend on me they had to be self. They have to be strong enough. And also, it was it was very interesting. Again, because they were living by themselves, I didn't have the chance to enter into their rooms or changing room. So they have to learn how to fix the conflicts as well. And because we handled very difficult conflicts at the beginning together, training camps or after tournaments, then they learn that they didn't have another choice then dealing with it. The last the World Cup final in Canada, December 1999. And we played where there was a huge pressure by the referee. But I learned that there was a conflict at the night before the night before the final in the night within the team and I didn't know about it before. So I had the choice to close my eyes and avoid the conflict. Or rather face it. And we did face it and it was quite painful. But I am glad we did it. Because then I didn't know I still don't know what happened on during those eight days they fix their problems. What they had to[PB7]
Paul Barnett 42:14
Istvan, I could you've been very generous with your time if I could ask you one final question. And it's around legacy and what do you believe is the legacy that you're leaving as a coach?
István Görgényi 42:27
The legacy is that i i was last here in Australia and met all the girls and now journalists do interviews now remembering to the 20 years anniversary. And older girls talk about the experience very happily and proudly. And you mentioned the end of the game. The real love and happiness, which is obviously all the team would celebrate with the same happiness by it was very thorough. So at the end of the game, for example, the two team captains swam straight away to the bench and they embraced me so I have a photo when I am embraced by two women from both of my cheeks in the same time and you cannot have better and they player who scored any goal or breach. Either TVs he drew me into the water so it wasn't me celebrating myself jumping into the motor she drew me in the in the water and actually that was if you had a minute. I am very proud. You're talking about legacy. It's very I think it's something that if it was the third center forward Bridgette Costas and Simone Hankins, probably amongst the best center for words of the word. And if it was small, but very, very nasty and just with full reading, go reading and very clever and lefty. So she was always swimming on the Center for words. And you know, it's the neat territories. If a player swims there too early then it's crowded. So I took her before the semi finals I think at night for a walk and I told her told her that you playing extremely well by just be a bit more patient and you we scored the winning goal. Obviously I didn't mean it. But I wanted to tell her that just be patient and she scored the goal. We're winning gold in the dining second and then we were invited Did to a function by the only big committee and obviously the girls drank some champagne beforehand. And she she pulled me into an empty room. She kissed me. And she told me, I scored because you told me so.
Paul Barnett 45:19
What are amazing stories, right? Dr. is fun. garganey I would like to thank you for your time today. It's been an amazing conversation and I can't wait to share it with everybody. Thank you for your time.
István Görgényi 45:34
Thank you so much. That's a pleasure and particularly that you were so prepared.
Transition 45:40
The great coaches podcast.
Jim Woolfrey 45:43
Hi, it's Jim. We hope you enjoyed listening to this special release edition of The Great coach's podcast, with Dr. Istvan Gorhenyi. It's attribute to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the gold medal game won by the Australian women's water polo team at the Sydney Olympics in 2000. The key takeaways of our discussion with his fan for me were getting star players to share the territory on the field with all players dealing with the competing groups within a team and the insights from his analysis of the Brazilian soccer teams 2006 loss in the Football World Cup final. If you'd like to hear more about his hunting territory theory, you'll find an excellent TED Talk online where using his theory, he explains the Deepwater Horizon disaster. We'll put a link in the show notes for you. Coming up next on the great coach's podcast. We're taking a look at advice on coaching through a new lens that we're calling out in focus series. Our first infocus guest is Cameron Schwab. Cameron is a CEO, a leadership coach and a strategist. He works with CEOs and emerging leaders to achieve high levels of trust as the basis of high performance. At 24. He was appointed CEO of the famous Richmond football club in the Australian Football League, the youngest in the history of the game. Over his career as a high profile sports administrator, he has taken on some of the sports most difficult and daunting challenges and established a track record of building teams and organizations while navigating periods of genuine adversity and complexity. Cameron is a legacy focused leader who has bounced back from both personal and professional setbacks his whole career. It's a generous and inspiring conversation that we just loved.
Cameron Schwab 47:30
I'm in the early days and because i was i was i was young into leadership that people said Oh, you can form too close relationships with your people. And there was it was almost like a warning sign. And and I think it came a little bit out of military training that say because if you had the sort of the World War Two, then you had the generation after that, and then I'm really because I'm into it young, I had the generation almost as before my time and and so most of the leaders who I were in and around were very much control command type leaders, which almost by definition says don't get too close, you know, don't get too close. Where I think we're now we're, we're we're so far past that. Yes, because he can be can have really close relationships. But as long as you understand that at some point a decision will have to be made.
Jim Woolfrey 48:19
And just before we go, if you have any feedback on any of our great coaches episodes, or you know a great coach who has a unique story to share, we'd love to hear from you. You'll find our contact details in the show notes.