Ep 009 - Cameron Schwab
Thu, 10/22 9:32AM • 51:13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, richmond, people, behaviors, trust, conversation, talk, cameron, person, coaching, premiership, leaders, fremantle, relationships, values, sport, ceo, organizations, bit, important
SPEAKERS
Jim Woolfrey, Paul Barnett, Transition, Paul Gustard, Cameron Schwab
Paul Barnett 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast. To me, being perfect is not about that scoreboard after this is a chance. You can understand the dressing, you can work towards a common goal. We are all on the same team. Now you focus on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again. It's got to be better. We've known great moments are born and great opportunity.
Cameron Schwab 00:34
My name is Jim Woolfrey. And you're listening to the great coach's podcast. Usually Poland, I interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help us all lead our teams better. From time to time, we'll be looking at great sporting coaches from different vantage points that we call our infocus series. Today, it's the boardroom. And our first infocus guest is Cameron Schwab, who has had a ringside seat beside some of the greatest coaches Australian rules football has ever seen. Cameron grew up as the son of a football CEO, and spent his childhood mixing with some of his heroes. He then started his own career in football at age 20, overseeing talent identification and player recruitment at the Melbourne football club. He was soon appointed CEO of the Richmond football club at just 24, the youngest in the history of the league for the next 25 years. He was CEO of three AFL clubs, Richmond, Melbourne and Fremantle, ranking him the eighth on the list of the longest serving CEOs in the 150 years of the sport. In addition to his career in the AFL, he holds an MBA is a talented artist has battled cancer and depression, and talks openly about the parenting challenges of supporting a transgender child. These days, he runs design CO, where he helps organizations build courageous, confident and creative leaders. This was an engaging and challenging discussion. And the highlights for me were Cameron's thoughts on the influence of military training on the coaching styles of the 70s 80s and 90s. behaviors being more important than values and the concept of performance trust. Cameron is a great storyteller. He really takes you into the boardroom when he was engaging with some of the biggest names the sport of Australian rules football has ever known. We hope you enjoyed the discussion as much as we did
Transition 02:36
the great coaches podcast.
Paul Barnett 02:38
So Cameron, how you going?
Cameron Schwab 02:40
Good. Yeah, good. Now a Saturday night in Melbourne, in the middle of a lockdown. So I feel like I spend it's possible like 28 or 28 hours a day in this particular spot here. So it's not it's actually slow. days, it could be set. I could be Sunday, we wouldn't know where you wouldn't have any idea?
Cameron Schwab 02:59
Well, we're happy to take your 29th our discussion today,
Cameron Schwab 03:03
I'm really pleased to be here.
Cameron Schwab 03:05
So Cameron, we're here to talk about coaches and researching and learning about you. I'm absolutely fascinated to talk to you because you've had 10,000 hours minimum experience with some of the most famous coaches in the game of Australian rules football. Yeah, Bartlett, john naughty Ellen James rock varasi. Neil bomb. And of course, of course, dinner table conversation with Tom hifi. Yes. So you've had great experience of people that have succeeded and people that have failed. So I think I'd like to start by asking you what is it these great coaches do differently?
Cameron Schwab 03:47
The interesting thing is, I probably had an awareness of the value of coaching before anyone either and I never differentiated between coaching and teaching, because I had teachers at school, the coaches around my dinner table, as you mentioned, and I saw them as different, but they weren't really where they, you know, so. So in the case of, because my father Ellen Schwab was Secretary of Richmond Richmond with the great club, Tommy hifi, was the great coach Coach for premierships at the club. And, and he would come around to our house regularly or my father would go around to his house, or they admitted the pan right over Richmond when I was a little boy and I would always tag along. And I remember as a young person, it was pre football of pre replays or easy access to replace. My father and Tommy hifi would talk about the game The day before and and I'd be listening so as an eight or nine or 10 year old kid, and they'd be talking about a piece of play, which happened and I think to myself, I remember that I can recall that and then and then I was getting the value of them saying okay, what was their take on and, and I knew that my father's tape was different to what Tommy's was because my my father might have been appointed viewers. Tommy had a responsibility. You know, he had to say okay, if that, if that piece applied wasn't as it should have been, what do I now have to do with that particular player to, to improve on their performance and, and then so I grew up with that. And then the very first job I had was as an office boy at the Melbourne football club and the coach was Ron Baresi. And, and Robert is the icon figure of the game and maybe the biggest name of games ever produced them. He was he already been part of 10, premierships just extraordinary played in 600 coached for and but he's, he's way was very, very different to Tom. He was very into the science of coaching was he was very aggressive and tough, but he was always looking at taking it to the edge. And in fact, Tommy has he loses his job at Richmond at one stage because they say that he can't keep up with, you know, the insight of bressi, the understanding of bressi. So I'm getting the two aces. But the interesting thing with my experience with bressi is that was it was an extraordinary personal experience, we didn't have any team success. And it was the first time Ron bressi had not had team success. So So I saw the great run per se not not not achieved in the way that he had achieved his whole life. And, and then later on in the piece, as CEO of Richmond Football Club, I work with down James and, and I'd set out three really different people. But you could see how if you all put them in the same room at the same time, they'll keep each other entertained for you couldn't put a timeframe on because they bring up bringing something different. I would say their heart, though, is that the one thing that they did have in common is that they they were seeking to set a standard at all times. And they tried to align I think as best they could, that standard to the capability of what they had access to in terms of the player group, I think all of them probably would have been frustrated at different times when they didn't have the capability that they needed. And I saw that with bressi of Melbourne because we just simply didn't have that capability. And probably Ellen James at Richmond a little bit. But though very strongly that this is the standard, this is the standard we're working towards. If we're not really there. If we're not there, now, we have to be there in a timeframe, which works for us. And if you can't, if you can't develop quick enough to work in with that timeframe, we're going to be pretty cutthroat about it. And, and it was a sport in the 70s 80s 90s was very, very unforgiving, more unforgiving than it is now we at least try to give the person a parachute that says there was no interested we're just throwing out the pie really. And so those who found themselves on the wrong side of that decision making weren't necessarily dealt with with an enormous amount of empathy. And it was really challenging for those guys.
Cameron Schwab 07:51
Interesting you, those three men that you mentioned, I don't know any of them. But I do know the reputation of hifi. And James has been a father figure two players in in really fulfilling that role. How have you seen coaches balance this intimacy in this with their players in this almost patriarchal approach to them, but at the same time stepping back and being dispassionate when it's time to make tough calls?
Cameron Schwab 08:20
Well, I think the learnings of leadership as it relates to parenting a really strong, you know, I'd say that is a rule and, and that balance between, you know, the pure patriarchal sort of way. And I think a lot of it comes back to definition but but you're right with Tommy Hayfield was almost the people will talk openly about love, you know, that they loved Tommy, it was really deep, you know, and with brass, it would have been this deep respect, you know, and they, and so there was, you know, that, and the trust in that, you know, that he was able to get, but it was a little bit different. I think Alan James, that came a little bit later, from what I understand. He coached for a very long time, I'm not sure whether all people he dealt with in, in his early security days would have the same view. So the Hawthorne, people wouldn't later on. And he also you remember, Alan James was a placement as well. So there was a bit that that really came through in in the way that he would have, I think coached during that period of time. And he used to say things like you never take the uniform off, you know, so you're always you know, there's always an expectation in and around. If you want to be nice or apply. We never not an AFL player in a way you behave external. But the good thing that I'm seeing in in in most forms of leadership is that I'm in the early days and because i was i was i was young into leadership that people said, Oh, you can't form too close relationships with your people. And there was it was almost like a warning sign. And I think it came a little bit out of military training that so because if you had the sort of the World War Two, then you had the generation after that, and then I'm really because I'm into it young. I had the generation almost It was before my time. And, and so most of the leaders who I were in and around, we're very much control command type leaders, which almost by definition says, Don't get too close, you know, don't get too close. We're, we're, I think we're now we're, we're so far past that, yes, because he can, he can have really close relationships.[PB1] But as long as you understand that, at some point, a decision will have to be made, as it relates to what next and I actually had that situation I was CEO of Fremantle Football Club, and Chris Conway was one of my closest friends was coach of Fremantle. And before appointing him, we did have that conversation and said that this, there is a very good chance at some stage, I'm going to come to you might be in a year's time, two years time, hopefully in 20 years time, but I'm gonna have to come to you and say, Look, it's all over. It's all it's all over. And we need to, you know, be able to have that conversation. And hopefully, we can have that conversation that we can maintain a friendship as a result of it. And unfortunately, that has happened, that didn't happen the case. And literally, I did go to Australia after again, got bitten by North Melbourne in 2007. And I walked into the rooms, and I think I think it's a separate piece. I think it's time for that conversation. I think I think it's over for you. And he built a VCR, I think you're right. And so we're able to do it on on that basis. So the friendship and whether it's friendship, or whether it's sort of the parenting type thing, I think it depends. I'd say that one thing that we do is we have a tendency to generalize relationships, you have to be able to develop relationships, which are specific to the individual, you know, because we're all bringing different things in different ambitions, goals, ways, behaviors, attitudes, all these things will bring a very, very different immolates. But there are certain non negotiables. But even then, they were a little bit more broader if we actually trust the relationship. You know, we we were you know, I think that there was this thing, you have to treat everyone the same? Well, that's just nonsense, it seems Since when is that? You know, but again, I think it came very much out of a military way of thinking of which we're now in, we're probably the first generation who've never really had that in a direct, you know, respect in our own life, you know, where I grew up with, there was there was Vietnam in the background, but, but really, we haven't had nearly as much to go in Australia as, as other generations, if you're, you went from World War One World War One to World War Two, and then, you know, so I think we have the benefit of that. And the good thing is you get someone like Juergen Klopp, who really talks about his love of the players, and they talk about their love of him, and they talk about the sensitivities around relationships, and they, they value the relationships on things like empathy, and you go, Well, you know, aren't we lucky to be leading, or having the opportunity to live in an environment where that is actually considered important, where, where it wasn't? I think, for a long, long time,
Cameron Schwab 13:00
these are all great examples of coaches stepping forward, and even yourself moving forward into that conversation with Chris Connolly. When is it important you think, for coaches to step back and be be less verbose and be quiet or be in the background?
Cameron Schwab 13:17
I think there is a difference between mentoring and coaching. And I know that they're used interchangeably. That mentoring is more about sharing a, a way of thinking and inside a framework and model. Even when I coach now I build on sort of three framings. Or I say, how have I got a story to support what I'm going to say, Have I got a metaphor, which actually makes sense for that individual? And is there a little model and the model might be just a two by two or a little triangle, my belt might be anything, I see that there's more mentoring, because you're trying to teach something to someone. Whereas with coaching is mainly about the space. It's really about asking better questions as much as anything and and so the, but it's not the first question, it's, then you might have an idea. You might say, this is a really cool question. And then you roll it out and nothing comes. But you then got to go get what's my second or third go at this one? Because you hopefully there is at least something that you've heard back, you go back, can we explore that a little bit, a little bit more than what you've given me at this at this point in time? And about the listening and yes, the listening is very, very important. But it's actually not just listening to the person you're seeking to coach is listening to what is going through your own head at that time. So I think the most important thing is because if you're hearing their words go in your head, that's a really cool thing. But it's actually making sense of what they're actually saying. And if you're just looking for the opportunity, just to say the next thing we'll talk next thing or or whatever, that's that's the one that's the wrong record pining you hit. You got to create different different spaces. And then and I was like, exactly like an environment. When my father was very good at that he would. And so was my mom. When I think about it, she whenever I'd come home and I'd say, you know, they reckon this or they say that she goes, Oh, who's that? Let's this word? Let's have a chat about they listen to it. I want to know exactly who is a Who is that? You know? And I remember at one stage she said, It was during puberty, which your friendship is a friendship group is everything even though you know, they're quite not do you look back on it now? But do they mean everything to you? And remember mom saying, if they, if they said, we're all jumping off a cliff, would you do it? I'm thinking probably. Because because they are everything really at that point, you know? And then the next just silly. Yeah, but that it is still who eat so rough and stuff like that. My dad, I may have described him as this field interrupted over Geneva describing that as the timelessness. It was a pain in the ass, really. But he was gonna think more about that. And mom was always on to that. So I had these two influences around me very much about, just don't tell me the obvious stuff. I want. I want to know more about what's going on here. I want to know what's going on. And that probably served me quite well. Even though, I gotta say, there's lots of periods of time where my arrogance and ego and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that blinded everything. Like, there's no question about that. And but to come back, I think so that I wasn't even if I'm in a coaching relationship, I say, Okay, let's talk to that out and my mentoring and my coaching here. And I've explained the difference at the start of the relationship. And someone might say, look, you know, no, I really, I've got this really big issue I'm trying to deal with, oh, god, this person is just not performing. I reckon they're undermining me in their own way. How do I deal with that issue there? They've been it. I know that they're, you know, that they're what the fact that I'm letting them get away with it is really hurting my relationship with other people or that? Well, that's a complex issue with a better coaching issue. There might be a framework I can help them with eventually, but I've got to learn more about the problem, you know. And so mentoring and coaching was the used very much interchangeably, I'd make a point of actually trying to say we're which mode Am I in here now? Which way am I? And that's been quite helpful.
Cameron Schwab 17:08
Cameron, I've heard you talk about the first lesson you learned being that your leadership has to be an extension of all parts of you. Can you talk a little bit about how you learnt this and where you've applied it to the teams that you've been involved with.
Cameron Schwab 17:24
And it goes back a little bit to to what I spoke about, because because I was a young CEO, I had, I look around me and my, as crazy as it sounds, this is this is day one. For me, I was 24 and CEO of Richmond, I'm sitting at the desk, which, like 10 years earlier, I used to visit my dad on school holidays, I'm sitting there and I felt almost embarrassed to be sitting on that side of the desk, I felt that I shouldn't sit still. And that one there drawing pictures of horses or something like that, which I used to do with footballers, when I was used to go in there and, and hoping hope my battery that Roy's half would walk past the door, or the childhood hero, and if it was anyone other than or sad or being disappointed, you know, Assistant, and then all of a sudden I'm in the job, you know, I'm doing the job. And I'm thinking, I have no idea what to do. You know, I don't know who to read. I don't know who to talk to, I don't know, I had no idea. So my first obvious thing is I sort of was a little bit what would sell and so doing it, you know, what would this person do now, that was my way of thinking. And I actually built some momentum based on the fact that now what would grind Richmond, the famous Richmond CEO do it this time where he was a very aggressive person, he was a very ruthless person. And I was probably a lot of things. But I would never have ever gotten close to his level of that. So I felt that that's what you had to be to be one of those things you had to be. And Richmond was known as ruthless Richmond as well. That was the number one value almost, we just managed to ruthless a way to the bottom of the ladder. But that was that was a different discussion, probably. And so I thought that's how I had to be. Well, I'm not like that, you know, I reckon I'm hopefully and I was. And I reckon I was only about three years into puberty at the time. And I was so concerned about the fact that people would see me as soft and weak and all that sort of stuff that I just overemphasize to make the point. And I just had exhausted myself and I just had stuff that every basis of any digit relationship I could possibly have. And then I just had There's a wonderful mentor I had early in, in any looking as a childhood hero as well, and it's gone. I'm afraid to speak you Pied Piper, Richmond superstar are great quiet, but he was he was a bloke who had probably Yeah, he got the very, very best out of him. So and he's an iconic figure Richmond. So I'm again I'm blessed. And remember, just used to say, Can we just be yourself? And we'd have these conversations and he say, I don't see what you're talking now. It's not what I see when you're in other environments. What was that? You know? And, and I thought, why not Francis Berg, so you can just walk in and be Francis Bacon when you log in everyone. Just get that You guys need to remember saying that he said, he said, you can walk in everyone, everyone knows who you are. And the only reason it was always that way for him. Of course, it wasn't. He was the 89 year old 20 year old trying to work himself out as well. But him saying that gave me the confidence to say, Well, yeah, I can be alright that I enjoy, you know, the, the creativity of leadership, I enjoyed the person, the personal relationships that I had the prospect, I enjoyed almost the work that the only sort of have to leave is anyway, so your talent lever and your systems level or I like talent and systems, they two things I really enjoy about leadership. So I just focused on the stuff that I was good at. And and then worked out that it might be good to actually employ a few people, they're gonna pick up the stuff that I'm not very good at. And people can really build relationships and trust and give them then the opportunity to sit on the other side of the desk whenever they think it's appropriate to keep to bring me back to where I need to be. And that worked out much better, much, much better. And the other thing was, it didn't exhaust me because trying to be someone else is a really exhausting thing[PB2] . You'd be sitting in the car and you'd have to almost put yourself in matchday mode, like every every morning, you walk, you know, you walk into the footy club, well, that's just exhausting. And leadership is tiring enough without actually adding another layer of just pure exhaustion total. So and then I probably had, I was lucky, I was given more opportunities, and I got to do it for a long period of time. And, and every time I was faced into situations where I had the benefit of the last time I've been in that experience, all those things are applied. They're all
Paul Barnett 21:42
Cameron listening to you. I'm reminded of the imposter syndrome, which is very prevalent in corporate life
Cameron Schwab 21:49
I feel like that, as we're sitting here today.I sthat OK, Am I aloud to say that now
Cameron Schwab 22:00
I mean, my my reaction to meeting you and hearing your story is that you shouldn't feel that way at all. I think you've got great insights and a very rich history that is applicable to many, many people. But let's talk about the imposter syndrome a little bit and how you've seen the great coaches around you deal with self doubt and in turn, how that's helped you deal with self doubt?
Cameron Schwab 22:24
Well, I've got so it comes from the basis of and this was an insight, which took a while to emerge, but always wondered why I continued to feel like an insight into a imposter in something that I'd actually done for 2020 years, why 20 years down the track, you shouldn't feel like an imposter therapy. And I think it was because firstly, leadership as the most fundamental level is difficult, it's hard. So you're doing something which is just hard, a lot of things can go wrong. And football clubs are really complex beasts, but I think most businesses, it's the layers, and I call them, you know, I have these in the work I do. Now I talk about the trust enemies, and one of the trust enemies are called is complicatedness, you know, that we, you know, it's definitely complexity, it's called where we make it more complicated than it should be. And I like using, we need to have an anti complicated Miss strategy here, you know, so, because it's like, read 27 syllables, you know, so. So, you know, it's a, and often we're adding to that, where the person adding the layers total. And so therefore, by definition, if something is hard, you're always going to feel that you're gonna ask yourself, am I up for this, you are gonna ask them. But if you're doing a good job as a leader, the main focus you should have is what I would call the 4951 decisions, the 49% 51% decisions, because that means you've got a whole lot of 6040, arranging, covering off all the stuff that they need to cover off everything got their own version of a 6040 with them. And so therefore, but the only decisions which should come to you by definition, as in to make a decision not to sign off on a decision, but to make a call are the most complicated. And the most complex of the most, you know, the ones we just carry, you know, and I'm in a different time to be facing into situations you go on, I've been around the game a long time, but its ability to throw up totally unique scenarios for you to deal with. And then people look to you as you are. So as you're some sort of an expert on this thing that no one's ever seen before in their entire life. That's actually part of the deal. And so if you're actually doing your job, well, you should only be dealing with the most ambiguous decisions. But the problem with ambiguous ambiguous decisions is you're going to get them wrong often. So therefore, you're gonna feel what so it's one at a time and you're going to stuff it up a lot. So you're going to get it wrong a lot. And the one thing about footy clubs is it's pretty unforgiving when you stuff it up, because we have a school What do you think the size of the MCG score was like a better me and fake beak, you know, so. So you're walking off the ground with the score saying where we, we keep 62. But the problem was they keep 171. You know, that's a pretty unforgiving little piece of information for everyone to say. And also, I mean, people have watched it on the telly and the Murphy's Law of footy is that when that happens, it's most likely a fraud and access the biggest audience so that they really did much better when they happen when no one's watching, but that generally happen other time. So it's gonna be hard. And so therefore, you're going to feel like an imposter. The other thing is we have a tendency to as leaders is that we, we see a bigger picture, because we've got, we're higher up like it, we've got a different view, if you like. And so therefore, when we achieve something, we're almost past the achievement and moving on to the next thing, and not necessarily getting the pure joy from the achievement. And one of the phases I talked about in sport is called a game never won, even if you win. You still play next week? Yeah, you still got to even if you win the Premiership trade week, or the trade where you're training in place, starts One week later, one week later. So we used to win the Premiership and we would start we'd stop, celebrate, we'd win the Premiership in September and stop celebrating in March. Well, we stopped celebrating now, you winner on the 27th of September, you stop celebrating on the second of October, because that's when tribalism starts. So and the demands of leadership, all that sort of stuff. So I think so what you have to be good at is dealing with being an imposter. So what why do you feel that what is it? Yeah, what do you need to be good at to understand that that's the the reality of it all? You know, that's, that's the thing. So, even though we're going to now just build on in framing of it all. So you just again, I just always had one key question I'd always come back to is okay, in this moment, right now, at this time, what does this role expect of me? What is it expected me now? Because it was different to what it expected of me six weeks ago. And if we're having this conversation in the future, we'll expect something off differently of me. And I think, yeah, and the classic one is the, you know, the covert, you know, the role and expectations of leaders totally challenged. And I would think most incumbent will work with organizations and most of them are saying we're getting the best employment engagement surveys we've ever had in their lives. Because their leaders have been front and center in trying to sort this stuff out and give people some sort of meaning in and around. You know, at a time when we're really struggling to find it.
Paul Barnett 27:40
I'd like to talk about values if I can, you talked a minute ago about ruthless Richmond of the 70s Yeah. And you know, recently in our time, it makes it so much like humble Richmond I, you know, you see them laughing and
Cameron Schwab 27:55
it's the greatest transition in the history of modern sport. Yeah, from an Australian point of view that the club which prided itself on its ruthlessness, now prides itself on its humility. I know what a bit of club, I know which one I'd like to play for, or be involved with, or support. Well, I heard someone recently say, Richmond now for me, whilst I sort of have played along with that ruthless thing, the Richmond Iberico, and this is a person who's 50s. Now, because if they're leaders in their own right, I can actually hold out to my my people are saying this is this is sort of organization we want to be a part of, we're heading in order to do that for the previous 11 years of their life. So that's really powerful. It's really powerful.
Paul Barnett 28:33
I heard I mean, talking about powerful I heard Stephen Curry, and it's been in the news because of the Jordan documentary lately, but I heard him talking about the value of joy. And it's amazing. And so I'd like to ask you what, what are the best and worst values? You've seen coaches develop through your 20? football?
Cameron Schwab 28:54
Well, I think we're probably described it in some ways, I think where it's where it's so outcome focused, that it loses track of what what it actually is. And these are always really interesting. Like I'm, I understand that there is a need for you bigger organizations who say, Okay, these are the things which are important. These are the things but by definition, were we saying, Okay, well, these things are important. I'm much more interested in in the behaviors which align to those things. So, so we might say that, like, if I looked at organization's value statement, like across the world, I would say if we said the word integrity, or reckon it would be in like 85% of them. Okay. But then second, let's have a chat about integrity. Or some people integrity is not pinching money. You know, some people integrity might be integrity of effort, trying hard. So I put a little definition on so again, I think integrity is is doing the right thing, even when it's hard. So I think integrity is easy. When it's easy, if everyone remember, so, so if you go back to all the values again, and say, okay, Tim, we have we go in it's hard on those things. [PB3] And a classic example would have been in recent times where organizations are saying, Okay, well, their profit model is just gone, you know, down the toilet, what are we now doing this, this is the test of our values, you know, people are everything I tell you, power is epic, or they're just actually just, they're just empty three quarters of the amount of joy. You know, because, because, and I get why they can actually have it. So I'm not I'm not judging. So I'm not as much into that they use as a, a statement around stuff. I'm really interested though, in behaviors, how do we behave here? And, and sport is a performance industry. No, no one even pretends that it's actually not. But it's also as you know, it is so critical in terms of how people align their their identity to this thing, it's how, you know, even that the conversation where then the funny thing was, I grew up in Richmond supporter I worked at Mel when I worked at Richmond, I worked at Fremantle at Pixar at Barrett, for all I did, I just came back to my identity. I'm a Richmond person, you know, but I couldn't have been any other developer. I couldn't have been any more Melbourne at the time, you know, and Baresi, the figure that we were talking about before, he's a life member of for AFL comms, you know, but he considers himself now he says, I'm a Melbourne person, but I reckon when he goes to the Carleton Premiership, where he is Geez, counting on that guy, you know, that's just how it is. And no one would say that he's not being not showing integrity. So it's how people behave so. So people will then often in conversations I have with people say are you come from elite sport, let's have a conversation about a high performance culture. And I often say, well, we don't actually talk much about that, when we talked about high performance behaviors, and high performance behaviors as it relates to the individual. So how do we get that person performing at a high performance level, and that is a different thing for each individual. So if we just throw out accountability and integrity, and all these sorts of words, which gets thrown around in regards to that, we had a really come, a deeper conversation, not the obvious conversation, but a deeper, deeper, deeper, having tested those values, or if and we'd all have three different takes on them. So it's the conversations around those, and it's the accountability teams actually have to each other as it relates to those which are important.[PB4] And so I find that, at an organizational level, they're pretty good at articulating values. Yeah, they get that, and they understand that and, and hopefully, it also has a strategic value for the minute that there's no point having a value, which isn't going to help them strategically do the things they want to achieve. And I'd say most people, when they they look at that they go Yeah, they're the vaes. Now, what am I behaviors is related. And you can have some really good conversations in regards to that. And individuals can can pretty much say, Well, this is my take on most things. The tricky is most of us operate in teams. And most senior people in businesses, they're part of about four or five different teams, and the team that they're the most important team, they're a part of, maybe say senior leadership team, which is a group of people with nothing in common. We don't spend much time together. And that's where the values are tested. That's where the values are tested. Because someone says, this is a time when we should be taking risks, and someone says, hang on, like this is the time we should be putting money in the bank, you know, and turns on what job you got, I need 15 more people to sell stuff. Because you know, this is a great chat, and someone says like, Oh, he's gonna pay for it. You know, you have these, you're coming from your own world. And you're always representative of your part of the business by Tommy it's almost like a jockey. When really this is a group of people who should be there, though, that's where the values are tested. And I'd say the same around board tables as well. Because I reckon most the time you say to the board, I can tell you those days again, but that's where it's tested. Because they're the groups who are making the most important decisions based on the least amount of information and knowledge often. That's where it's tested. So, I reckon, I reckon, that's also the area we do the least amount of work on making sure that we leave the values.
Paul Barnett 34:32
So let's talk about your work there.
Cameron Schwab 34:36
is that your experience or not.
Paul Barnett 34:39
I am lucky enough to be part of a European management board. And I would say we are lucky enough to work in the beer industry and we spend a lot of time outside of the boardroom together. Yeah, and we're in a social scenario
Cameron Schwab 34:55
thats very underrated by the way because a lot of groups don't
Paul Barnett 34:58
And we will Talk about families fears, we would share with each other, I think in the way that you only can when you're in a very comfortable setting like that. So, so listening to you, we have a set of behaviors that are very, very strong. And we had we launched them a few a few years ago now. And we talk about them a lot, we recognize them in others. And so when I hear you talk about behaviors being more important than than culture, I can definitely, that definitely connects with me. And I'd see that in my experience,
Cameron Schwab 35:40
it's great. And say, what would have happened is your culture you then create is unique to you guys. And therefore, because it's unique to you guys, you can actually fulfill it, you're not trying to be something that you're not. And so then we say, Okay, if some of the habits within the group aren't where they need to be, we can then have the conversations about these behaviors need to change. And that's where Team teamies tears, elite sporting teams are great at this. They're great at what happened. Question isn't what happened? And what do we learn? And how do we now bring that into our, into everything? So something if you're someone says, okay, that behavior is outside of what do we have to do to change that behavior? And you might have to debate whether it is or isn't outside. But once they're tested, and I've got three rules on that is can you back it up? Is it important? What you're saying is, is coming from a good place? And if it takes off those three things where you should be getting their feedback? And then you say, Okay, what do you have to do change it? [PB5] Well, there's something which is, that normally is something for you personally, you have to be a habit, there'll be a routine, there'll be a rhythm, if you want to get fit, it's the consistency of the effort to get fit, not the decision to get fit, it's and then, and it's the identity, do you see yourself as a health and healthy fit person. And that's, that's where I think, mainly business can learn from sport is that with a total focus on behaviors, and what we actually have to do to change behaviors. And so I had a conversation yesterday with Neil Craig, who, who coached Adelaide Football Club, came in Melbourne, he's done high performance roles now for the last 10 years. And he's a high performance manager with Eddie Jones in England, anyone rugby now. And he says, All their conversations are about people. So we need to get this behavior, right. And straightaway they go into that mode, well, how do we change that person's behavior. And then we give them the chance to do it. And if it doesn't change, and it's still impacting on team performance, or the choices made to replace them. And it's pretty unforgiving from their point of view, because it is called an elite sport for a reason. But you're operating in an elite business environment. And there's certain expectations, which then obviously, come come with it. And you won't necessarily work towards those expectations, until you actually really understand what those what those expectations are. And until you build clarity around those expectations, and therefore can change your behaviors accordingly.
Paul Barnett 38:04
And there's a there's an element of trust, I think that is has to be in place for people to call out these behaviors. And I want to talk about trust, actually, because your your running design co which is which is your company and you teach performance trust, which I find to be a fascinating idea. Could you just talk a little bit about the role of trust? how people can how you've seen coaches develop it with their teams, and just add some color to that for us?
Cameron Schwab 38:36
Well, the interesting thing is often you whenever I'm so I was having conversation with your child, how important is trust? And, and most of the time, it's really important, and then he throw, okay, and it might be their definition of trust, we have to consolidate what we mean by trust. But then I say, is there anything more important than trust? And, and we can say it well, I need to be able to trust if I'm working with you. I need to trust you at two levels. I need to trust your, your character. Yeah. Are you a good person? And I reckon it's a little bit of sort of integrity, intense, you know, comes into that, and there might be a bit of vagueness around that, you know, attitude aptitude, maybe you know, as in you know, do you bring a good effort, are you prepared to learn, you know, you'll have different takes on on character. But I have to be able to trust your competency as well, but you have to be able to do the job. You know, I trust my wife, absolutely. But she, she's not performing brain surgery on me. You know, it's outside of the realm. So there's a character competency there. And then we say, Okay, well, that's that's the personal trust that we know. And then we say, Okay, let's talk about then the systems trust. Do we trust the systems are the systems that were put in place? incentivizing the behaviors that we actually want from our people. And the banking Royal Commission in Australia, which probably say that they haven't. They haven't done that. So this is broken at a system level, which then probably comes into play. It's very complex and all that stuff, I get that. But the systems were all ordered behaviors of which elements, you know? And then you have the strategic trust. Do we trust the plan? Like in the most general sense, do we trust the plan? Well, firstly, do we actually know the plan the people are working in our organization? Are they do they find the plan understandable enough, so it can at least be compelling to infect. We can take action against them. And again, the similar thing if I threw the values out to a board meeting tomorrow, and I said, Okay, what what's the strategic plan of this space? What are the two or three critical things that we're trying to do? What I can make, most of them are not really strapped, so if I can't do really easy, I think strategy front just really needs to cover off on two things. First of all, people get my ideas. And it's in its own way, it's compelling, quite a bit excited by us. Because we get excited by our achievements in the moment, or the very real chance of achieving in the not so distant future, you know? And then there's a cultural trust here, do we trust what's going on when no one's looking? You know, that's something so and then people say, Well, yeah, I can. And that's, I've defined it that way. So people go on based on your definition, and I'd struggle to find something more important than trust based on that type of stuff. And then I get Okay, we're just trusted in the strategy now. But have we got an objective to be good at trust? Because I think the stuff that we're talking about here and the conversations we're having, are, in fact, things where you can proactively become and build better trust. And I'll look at trust as an outcome. The same way, as I look at authenticity with leadership as an outcome, big pigs, I'm gonna be really authentic leader. So has that vulnerability stuff down for you? Oh, no, not big on that. Okay, well, here's your thing. You can't have one without the other, you know, the behavior is one of being vulnerable, if you like, which will help with anything. So therefore, I say, Okay, what are the things which contribute to trust? And, you know, and it really comes down to those four things? Do we trust the trust the person trust the plan, trust the systems trust the culture, you know, but having a really proactive? And what I find is, it's not necessarily based on anyone doing anything majorly different. It's asking the right questions of all of those things. But from a strategic point of view, I just simply asked, okay, what does winning look like? And are we clear on ambition here? And then say, Okay, what do we need to be good at what capability we seeking to build so we can give ourselves a chance of actually doing that? And can we get ambition and capability somehow alive, because if ambition is up here, and capability, see with over promise, or just stuff, trust that trust is gone, because all their people are out there selling stuff that they can't deliver on? and looking through, through a company recently, they said that they're gonna have it for me in June, I'm still waiting. And you said that the trust is broken a little bit now, you know, in its own way. And there might be lots of I'm sure, there's lots of good reasons for it. But can you tell me what the reasons are? So at least I'm not sitting there waiting for the dog to bark at the Amazon man at the front. And I say, it's this type of thing. And then you go, Okay, then ambition capability, align it, because then we get clarity around it, we get clarity around expectations, and expectations are important. And then we have to ask ourselves, what are we actually going to do here? Because we can't do everything. And that's where the next important part of strategies strategy is about the best use of scarce resources. And there's always going to be trade offs. And that's those really difficult decisions around senior leadership to I need this, they need that. And if we actually the first year of the budget every year is like, we're gonna lose billions of dollars because they might just put their wish list in. And then the final question is, how will we know which is measurement and measurement? The danger with most organizations is they measure that big scoreboard at the MCG? They don't measure the behaviors. So I just simply asked a question. If we were seeing, say three that actually said, Okay, we're forming your business, and we're calling Barnett and Associates, you're the big hitter in the room. We're calling. And we're going to have, you know, we're going to, we're seeing here and here and it's done what we wanted to do if we sit here in three years time, we just asked ourselves, and it's gone. Well, you know, what, tell us what conversations we're having. If it's gone. Well. We're talking bit of tongue we'll probably be talking about the wonderful people we've got around the place we'll be talking about ci we really worked hard through that period. g got hit and miss there. You know, we almost went under that stage where we really dragged ourselves. That'd be the conversations we'd be having. We won't be talking about how much money was on the back. We won't be talking about so these are the things that I think so I'd say just run those lenses that lens, those four questions over the organizational strategy, run it over, even at a team base levels. So if you're in a senior leader, what does winning look like for this team? How will we know this team is a good team. And then you find is a few things we're going to change. And so that I think if you've got a pretty good understanding of expectations, actions against those four questions, or you're, we're good chance having trust, we trust the plan, we trust, their capability of delivering on the plan, we trust our capability, when things things go wrong, that we can actually make the right choices and trade offs at that time, we can be nimble, we can do all those sorts of things.
Paul Barnett 45:45
I hear a lot of coaches and a lot of leaders talk about legacy and, you know, being something that they are aware of and something that they want to focus on. Can you tell me what is the legacy that you believe the great coaches leave behind?
Cameron Schwab 46:09
There's a beautiful definition of legacy from the book legacy, which is, if you're looking for a great sporting book, as it really relates to business, the book legacy, which really uses the All Blacks as the example of some of the things that we've talked about, and they've got a notion of being a good ancestor, which is definitely saying, you know, leave in a case that leave the SE or blacks se always it's beautiful sporting brand, if you want to call it that, you know, that's that's one that at least leave the viewing team better shot. He's[PB6] sort of the notion, but then they say, but it's, it's plant trees, which will never enjoy it shade or fruit. That's. So it's actually having enough humility to say, I might be the people might be the person to finish this off. There, I might be sitting in the stains when we win the Premiership, and you might get a few texts from a few might say, Oh, well done on that. But you just go home, you know, in the afternoon function. Yeah, you're not drinking champagne out of a cup?
Paul Barnett 47:24
And if I could ask, what's the legacy that you want to leave as a leader and a coach?
Cameron Schwab 47:33
Have I taught self responsibility, if you like, it's a really feely vagy answer. But I'd say the same thing with my kids. So have gotten to the point where they can deal with the stuff they're gonna have to deal with themselves. And, and I've got, I've got to trench in the door. So so so part of her legacy. My legacy for her is giving her the confidence to define herself in the way that in a gender other than when she was born, you know, so like, so it's knowing that that's a promo? Yeah. When, when she first told me or talked to me about that, I was thinking it was gonna be hard to fight. Yeah, the first thought was, this is gonna be so much harder for you. But but that was me being selfish, you know, really, because it was that it was already it was way too hard, already. And now, it's actually much easier, because you get to be who she wants to villian. and stuff. Anyone who doesn't like it anyway, you know. So that's, and that's the power of it. So you, you actually with coaching, it's not actually saying, you do this, and you'll do? Well, it's actually them working it out for themselves. And we'll come back into this, no one ever saw that. They had to be different, and forging their own way. And actually, yeah, and the resi story, which you've heard me tell is this notion of an unknown meaning for an unknown person is you actually, if you're helping someone in some find some little piece of meaning and they take it somewhere else and becomes like a, it forms its own way forward. And so as a coach, all I'm saying is, I'm hoping I can help people look at it for themselves, in a way which is unique to them in their own way. So they went one for advice, because I did Chet
Paul Barnett 49:29
Cameron Schwab, I'd like to thank you for a fantastic discussion. We greatly appreciate your time today. It's been hugely insightful and good luck with the remaining lockdown in Melbourne.
Cameron Schwab 49:40
Well, thanks very much. I look forward to learning from the other people you've had on board as well.
Transition 49:47
The great coaches podcast.
Jim Woolfrey 49:50
We hope you enjoyed our first infocus edition of the great coaches podcast. We will look to bring different perspectives on coaches and coaching like Cameron's In the near future. Coming up next on the great coach's podcast, we speak with Paul gustar. Paul is head coach at Harlequins Rugby Club in the UK. He played more than 150 rugby Premiership games for Leicester tigers, London, Irish and Saracens. His coaching career started at his old club Saracens, helping them win the Premiership on three occasions. And in 2016, they picked up the European Championship in 2015, Paul was appointed the England rugby teams defense coach,
Paul Gustard 50:29
as a coach, I think one thing that I'm getting better and better at and so that I stay true to is to be creative and innovative. So to keep trying to stretch and stimulate and inspire, that'd be one side of it. And then the other thing is, which goes hand in hand with creativity and inspiration and motivation is consistency and consistency.
Jim Woolfrey 50:50
And just before we go, if you have any feedback on any of our great coaches episodes, or you know a great coach who has a unique story to share with love to hear from you, you'll find our contact details in the show notes.