Ep 010 - Paul Gustard
Fri, 10/16 9:58AM • 41:36
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, people, played, club, harlequins, players, game, england, team, paul, spoke, sport, group, bit, eddie jones, australia, wolves, training, achieve, absolute clarity
SPEAKERS
Jim Woolfrey, Paul Barnett, Transition, Paul Gustard, Tracey Menzies
Paul Barnett 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast. To me, being perfect is not about that scoreboard after this is a chance. You can understand the dressing, you can work towards a common goal. We are all on the same team. Now you do it to the issue of focus on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again. It's got to be better. We've known great moments are born. Great opportunity.
Paul Barnett 00:34
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's Podcast, where we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. Our great coach on this show is Paul costard. Paul is head coach at Harlequins Rugby Club in the United Kingdom. In a tangy Korea he played more than 150 Premiership games in the English Rugby Union League for Leicester tigers, London, Irish and Saracens. He started his coaching career in 2009. At his old club Saracens, coaching the backs and forwards and helping them to win the Premiership in 2013 2015 and 2016. In 2016, they won the European Championship. He was then appointed the England defense coach and Eddie Jones, were more successful owed to six nations titles, won Grand Slam, and a series when for the first time in Australia. Paul is a structured and organized coach who was able to zoom in and think about the present. And at the same time, zoom out and think about the future. The key highlights of the discussion for me were balancing the intensity versus the density of training, creating a lead by example group, not a leadership group, and using round tables for team meetings. We hope you enjoy this interview with bourgas. Dad,
Transition 02:01
the great coaches podcast,
Paul Barnett 02:04
Paul Gustard, welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Paul Gustard 02:08
Thank you, Paul. Good to be on here. Good to be on it.
Paul Barnett 02:10
And yeah, I can see that you're fresh from the training track. Could you just tell our listeners where you are in the world and what you've been up to for the last few hours.
Paul Gustard 02:19
So I'm based in Surrey. I'm currently head coach of Harlequins and we played a stupid trick. Remember, we trained down in Guilford. So we are in our delightful cube here, it's an old squash court conversant officers, we have some distance, or stuff operate in different parts of the building and lightspeed saw two guys.
Paul Barnett 02:40
Well, Paul, thank you for carving out some time for us. I'd like to start by talking about some of the great coaches you have experienced with Jeff proben, Eddie Jones and Alan Gaffney, to name just a few. What is it you think the great coaches do differently?
Paul Gustard 02:58
It's a it's a great question in phrase like that, to be fair, I think, I think what sets some of them apart if we start with Edie, because everyone gets it, and it is always in the public eye. And he's a great orator and speaks really well. But but i think i think one thing that Edie does better than anybody is, he trusts his I trust his instinct. knows, he knows what it is that he wants. And when he sees it is able to is able to catch that moment freeze frame it. So he is very good with intuition.[PB1] He knows what it is he specifically looking forward to coaching. So if you're coaching, for example, attack, which is what was what he was doing with England for a period of time, and there's multiple things you can look for the game of rugby, he goes in with a specific area of attack to look at now. So it might be about taking the ball square, for example. It's not about the shape, it's not about the structure, it's about the skill he's looking for to try and coach and he coaches that really, really hard. So that would be one thing on the field practically that is not always these folks into looking at some my niche I detail about what he wants to try and get out of that session. So absolute clarity. Second thing based on that is he is very, very clear about what he wants very, very clear about what he expects very, very clear with the staff about the standards it looks at. So from that point of view, you've got a very clear picture about what you would expect to do as a coach, underplay working for it. And then the final thing I think that he does better than anybody else have ever come across in coaching is ask the question why? He has a lot and you know, he challenges people a lot and and he makes you you makes you reflect hard on your own coaching makes you question your process a lot[PB2] . And without a doubt, I think anyone that's been around that in work with Eddie will all feel that they've developed as a coach and he makes you look at the game and makes you look at coaching as a profession. And not just someone who's been a sport as a player moves into the sport because all they know, he makes you think about How your pedagogy is what modalities look to how to expand our minds, big into growth mindset, big into critical reflection. And as I said that question Why? He must ask 56 times a day.
Paul Barnett 05:13
Paul, you're you've been get the coaching game now for 10 years and you're slowly building forward. You know, you had that great time with England when you were the defense coach. But if I was to sort of stand back now and say how would you describe your own coaching philosophy that you've got an implementing it Harlequins?
Paul Gustard 05:30
Look, I think the most important thing as a coach is to be adaptable. You know, I started my coaching journey with another great coach, but run inventor, assassins, and I was a fundamental skills coach with Eddie at Parsons prior to become a defensive force coast assassins, and he was very successful, which afforded me opportunities to get the privilege to coach with me again, and England. But each group has something slightly different moved from Saracens to England to Harlequins, and you know, moving into an international sport, where you have less time with them, you have different places and different philosophies and principles that apply their clubs trying to line them all into one commonality is a different cultural challenge than having somebody for I was coach's house for seven seasons, by the night seasons by then. So there was a continuity and understanding about the language that I used, the outcomes that I wanted. And the training way that we applied, England then became different because the amount of time we had to be more adaptable, to change the way that I did certain things. Had to recognize the landscape of international sports faster. It's it's there's more change. There's bigger gaps between competitions, there's more more time for, for playing sports to change the playing styles to change, and move back to Harlequins, which have a different DNA as a club, you know, Saracens is based around defense, and Hollywood is always based around attack. So it's trying to embrace the DNA of the club, respect the history of the club, the heritage of the club, and also trying to instill some of the things that I think are important, as a team to be successful. So adaptability, certainly certainly hugely important. I think the next thing that you need to have as a coach or delete a group of people is, as I mentioned around it is to have absolute clarity about what it is that you want to know, if you can articulate, clearly, succinctly and accurately what was expected, then then you go a long way to getting what it is that you want from each member of staff and each player. So being able to define clearly what the higher purposes but the identity of the team is, and how you go about achieving that through your processes[PB3] . So those are those are the two main things and they're actually practicing. As a coach, I think one thing that I'm getting better and better at and so that I stay true to is to be creative and innovative. So to keep trying to stretch and stimulate and inspire. That'd be one side of it. And then the other thing is, which goes hand in hand with creativity of inspiration and motivation is consistency and consistency, as we have a big slogan is actually not the same as the one next door. And it just has consistently been consistent, so consistent with with the messaging so that again, there's no there's no wiggle room, there's no soft language, it's very clear for pi to understand then insistent on the standard insistent on, that's the level that we expect and training and our performance.[PB4] So those were the kind of key things that jumped out my mind
Paul Barnett 08:18
poker, talk about innovation for a minute, if I could, because you started your coaching career at Saracens, you know, the club, you spent a lot of time with playing with in 2009. And when you left, they said your legacy had been seismic, and that was the exact word that was used. And it was because of the introduction of the wolf pack defense. And that would be the lasting legacy. We have a lot of listeners that are not familiar with rugby, but I was wondering if you could just try to describe this Wolf Pack defense and how it works for the For the uninitiated.
Paul Gustard 08:51
No, I think I was obviously with the with the audience probably not necessarily will be rubbing people that they're not the specifics of what it what actually is, but rather the meaning behind it. So probably everyone be familiar with New York Kipling and strength of bikers. The wolf in the center of the wolf is the pack and it was kind of came out quite organically in the meeting an issue really we talking about defending and having to sell my life have an energy and hunting together as a pack. And when I did it, a couple of players that are a wolf whistle, it was it was quite an upbeat meeting. It was quite vibey and it was it was a lot of energy and a lot flow in the room. So I kind of played on that. And then we started in no in meetings talking about hunting wolves. And I think within three days, our T shirts back knocked up with raised by wolves, all the branding and the imagery around the fence was presenting things on my deck of slides. And so I was always around a warford I did awards based on things with Teen Wolf from from different films where I was getting dressed up as things I just I just tried to I just tried to give something a life outside of the sport. So there was something about the plays belong to that was bigger than the actual aspect of the game. So in this instance, it was defense Could've been anything but it was just the point that you were part of something your parcel bigger than the actual aspects of the game. So that was the idea really was just to try and give give something identity that's probably the least fashionable part of their game and over, you know, as really really kind words obviously said about me but a bit over a period of time, it became such a such a confidence and such a reassurance for the team that the defense was so strong, and that they could rely on it and in a came of the back have just been a bit different.[PB5] And just thinking outside the box a little bit. We had two live wolves come in to try and illustrate points. We are different things in Tiger snakes in bits and pieces, but the kind of wolves resonated and it's stuck with them and you now see around the around the ground that thousands of a wolf pack bar that the sub merchandise around wolf pack and before don't get any commission, but it's it's quite nice to see that that kind of ethos and and DNA is not so tightly woven and ingrained in the club that all that success is based off the back of their efforts and a bit of guidance from me.
Paul Barnett 11:09
That's a great story, Paul. And of course that launched you into the English tape. So it was a was a wonderful initiative. I wanted to just take a step back if I could. And you know, you talked about Harlequins all about attack and Saracens, all that defense and but had he as a coach, when you come into a new environment? How do you balance that? respecting the the tradition of the past but also pushing, pushing the team forward and innovating? I imagine that would not be easy?
Paul Gustard 11:35
Yeah, it's a challenge. You know, you have to change behavior. Obviously, you know that there's this habit of how a team trains, you know, when the new guy coming in, and you've got an opportunity, because generally, when you go into an environment, in the capacity of hours as a head of an organization, then generally something something's gone wrong, or something's not quite working out. And they feel that it's maybe easier to change. One person is changed 45 players and rewire the opportunity. And so there was certainly people receptive, receptive to early ideas, you know, your early, early take on the early adapters, if you like. And then as time goes on, you know, people naturally, are predisposed a certain way. And you know, that there's things that we're still trying to change and still working harder. But, but I think as I said, it's important to respect the fact that Harlequins aren't trying to be Samson's version two, you know, because we're never going to catch up with sizes on the on the trajectory that they're on with, with that playing style, and how many years they've been doing home grown, the consistency of our squad, where our team is currently rebuilding a little bit, you know, we've had some lean years, we are in our first final in four years. And, you know, last year, we were in our first semi final and we just narrowly missed out on the playoffs and we've been a bit yo yo this season with a lot of injuries, so on but, you know, we started develop a really good group of young men, and I think they believe in, believe in the club, believe in what we're trying to achieve. And I determined to put things right and determined to try and put the best foot forward and create their own memories and their own legacies for Harlequins in the future.
Paul Barnett 13:09
Paul, if there was a coach listening, and they're moving into an environment similar to the one you took over, you're in rebuild phase, there hasn't been a satisfaction with the performance of the club, and they want a change, what would be the advice you'd give them on the things they should do first?
Paul Gustard 13:27
I think the first thing is set yourself out a roadmap you know, like I made some mistakes for sure. Obviously, when I came in, I wanted to change the world and the day or yesterday even and I probably did too much too much change too fast. So I think really identify the two or three things that you want to fix we kind of highlight five things when I came in and the one was around defense one was around set peace one was around standards of training you know how hard we train our intense training is so i think is a sport you either have intensity or density I want to be more intense and less dense. [PB6] And then the two of the things are more more I suppose I say superficial things but more or less tangible things in terms of having fun enjoyment and and also making sure that we that we respected it and identity so the fun enjoyment is I think is part of people enjoy doing what they do and enjoy coming to the environment that they're in in any capacity and work you're more likely to be able to achieve and it wasn't that we want to come here and just muck around and joke around but it was to try and enjoy spending time with each other's company was enjoy a positive conversations with each other learning by each other, learn about our families, learning about histories, learning about our backgrounds, learning what motivates us, and then likewise been able to make sure that we can go have fun doing as well, you know, there's certainly some social activities, but a lot of them was meant to be around positive interaction with people. And one of the things we want to do is obviously in life is to combat human beings, the more the more we spy to do that then not sure that they're not going to be better replays, better coaches and so on. So, that was kind of our big driver. But uh, but I think if you can read Be clear about what it is that you want to, you want to change less than, you know, you've got one mouth and two ears for a reason. And I think if you can listen and take some feedback, when you go into the environment, what's been said, is that there's been a review and an audit or something done differently that you could maybe take some information from, what due diligence can you do to try and find out some more embrace embracing people that you think you're going to be key for you. And that could be either through challenges support, you want to make sure that people are on board with you. And it's not necessarily has to be completely co creation? Because you need to, you need to be clear about what it is that you want. But I think you need to embrace some key drivers in the group key influencers in the group. When moving into to change an organization[PB7] ,
Paul Barnett 15:42
how have you gone in engaging with those key influences? Has it been successful? Or is it been a bit bumpy at times?
Paul Gustard 15:50
I think I think it's always bumpy. No, no, in any industry or any sport, you know, results, results can fluctuate. And when results fluctuate, it puts pressure on different types of pressure on people. And people respond differently to different things. And that's when you're looking for people to stay true to the course, you know, have their sell point the same direction as you are. And you know, it's not always been perfect. And I've not always been perfect, and I make mistakes and get things wrong. And you know, that our cell lines up and apologize, work on reflect and get better. And but but i think i think we're getting into place now where more consistent with with our approach, when we win or lose that we can be more reflective and understanding and try and really work out the critical two or three reasons I can fix. Things that we can kind of even build on more make more of a super strength. To that end this year, we went around things slightly differently, we want to share of course, we created one called lead by example group, kind of take away the word leadership a little bit, I think that's a it's a title gets given probably too easily. But I think people can be example setters and set certain standards and be demanding of certain things are important. So lead by example group, which was voted for by the players, we divide the group into three different bandwidths of age. So there's a cross section across the group. And, you know, we have a group of 12 players now that we can call upon and every kind of week we meet in the circle was no head of the table No, no head of a head of the group. And we share, we check in with our feelings, we check in with our commitments, and then we check in with what we want, what we want to achieve. And then finally, once we kick it around and discuss two or three things within it, we check out and see how we feel again, and what it is that we want to take moving forward and what the actual steps are. And I think I think from that now we're talking about drivers and influences rather than like a leadership group, these people here that are meant to help help drive the standards, help drive a message, help drive the game plan, and I think will work more effective as a unit like that.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 17:49
It's a fascinating story ball hearing you get the place to talk about their feelings. I mean, particularly during COVID I mean, it's, it's something that is very underrated and tense, wonderful what you're doing, but can I pick up on something you said just at the start of that answer, you said, leadership gets given away too easily. I'm really intrigued to just hear a bit more about what you mean,
Paul Gustard 18:11
as well, I suppose I suppose the word the word itself isn't entitled, you know, you know, what makes leadership You know, I think leadership is something that's earned. And I think it's somebody that you, you, you need to respect as a position and you have to be willing to willing to accept and willing to want it you know, I think sometimes leadership or positions of, of stature hierarchy, often given because of time or experience, but doesn't necessarily mean that they qualify and attend to leadership. So when when we did this lead by example group, the idea was more that we gave the criteria that you had to had to vote for. So it was more based on you know, how competitive they are? what's the what's the training standard, like? What's their will to win? You know, what's their passion for the sport, they love the sport and have a passion for the club. It wasn't necessarily based on how many times they've played for the team or how long they've been the club is more based around that day in day day, our attitude and behavior around people and how much they could influence because as soon as you as soon as you sit in the seat like I sit in I can influence people either positively or negatively. And sometimes as I said before, I won't amount I think I've got things wrong and reported negative influence when I mean to but i but i think that you know, the more that you understand that the the power of your word and the power of your body language, your actions can influence people, then it's important they try and get the right people like another positive influence on the rest of the group and bring us with us because you know, I certainly can't do all by myself. And the coach can we'll do all we have to have a kind of top to bottom and bottom to top. don't necessarily like that language, but unicellular meaning it's not just given by me, it's not just driven by the bottom of the of the youngest kids. It's everyone's in it together and the more people we have that's going to lead by example, through action, and our more positive influences amongst the group. And I think we'll get where we want to get to faster.
Paul Barnett 20:17
You've actually said, Paul, I read where you, you talked about your biggest coaching challenge is to stay positive, and to not focus on mistakes and to have this next job mentality. And that that was the most important thing to have in the role. How have you coached the players to deal with their own self doubt and their own lack of positivity? eloquence?
Paul Gustard 20:40
I think we talked about it a lot. You know, there's, to me, we had a pretty, pretty honest, reflect to me today, you know, we lost a performance on Saturday just gone, you know, gifted points away, and we got humbled at home, and we're the first first rugby team to have a crowd back in front of our supporters, I'm looking forward to seeing his play. And obviously, the burden of that can weigh heavy on people in terms of we fell in love with let people down. And it's important that we understand where we are as a group. And you know, where we're at what our aspirations our ambitions after the end of the season. And in there, I think part of part of being positive is you have to embrace the negative or you have to embrace the reality. And I think today, we had a really cosmetic kind of meeting, again, where we spoke about feelings, we spoke about how the result factors how it performs, affects us in order to do to move forward both as a coaching group and as a playing group. And I don't think you can always just be, you know, put a cherry on top of the cake and savings, or I think we are you have to you have to reflect and you have to show and illustrate the standard that you said, you want to know that the standard that you will pass is the one you're willing to accept. And if we if we if we accept mediocrity, then we can only expect mediocrity on Saturday. So it's important that we went through that process. But once that's done, know what's done is done, as I say, or what you did yesterday, is only a failure if you don't learn from it. And it's important that we take the lessons that we've got from it and make sure we see a positive response in terms of our process, and how we train and how we apply ourselves.[PB9] And then also, more importantly, terms of our mindset that we that we that we have to take on the next thing No, the whistle starts again up for us on 745. On Wednesday night and starting Mills, he saw 00 doesn't start 10 points down at 10 points are. And it's a I've used the story before, but it's it's a story about King Sisyphus, who who got punished for being deceitful basically, and is burdened by Seuss was supposed to this giant boulder up the hill, then every day, and every night, the boulder would roll back down to the bottom, the elegant and next day consists of a set to push the boulder back up again. That's life, you know, that's forward, every every day we start again, every day, the sun shines, you get up mountain sunshine, so much aluminum, but it's been two, and we have to get going again. And every time we play every time train, we have to start again, we have to get our bodies going have to find a way to perform it to find a way to apply ourselves. We have software is not ball up the hill again. And it's if we feel sorry for ourselves, if we look outward, not inward, if we have a negative outlook on things that we're not gonna be able to perform, perform within ourselves perform a fear of failure. And it's important for the players and the staff, as well project positive images and try and move forward because we're not the only team that struggle from time to time. But but the bodies that we were, can weigh heavy on some people because it's a it's a historic club, it's a famous club. And there's a responsibility to perform this and certainly where we are, you know, I'm not happy to where we are. And I gotta I gotta improve myself as well, of course.
Paul Barnett 23:48
Well, let's, let's talk about more successful times then. Because you were part of Leicester when they won four championships in five years, which is an amazing period of sustained success. Had a great coaches get this kind of success without their teams becoming complacent, or as you said earlier, having a sense of entitlement.
Paul Gustard 24:10
Look, I think I think when I look back at the last time, I think one thing that was very clear was the culture was very strong. And that the best example I can give you is like I played England a couple of times, but I wasn't a regular player. I played a couple times in two non Cup games, you know, that kind of stuff I never quite played the highest level for a sustained period of time was more amateur players. So what was really intriguing for me is the guys like Mark Johnson, who's won the World Cup for England. We had six or seven key England players last year at a time. And what was very noticeable is that they came back to training and play a test match on a Saturday. I've been away from their wife and their family for for maybe six, seven or eight weeks. Come back on the Monday and fronting up and training. You know last is training time is very physical, very hard. And these boys have come back from international and made fun of a mom of the front of it, you know that there's lots of stories around Leicester and how are the train and the fighting and training and all the rest of it. So I don't need to go through that. But it was more than mindset that the club meant something to them. And the the the attitude to come back and train and give back the club was important. And that came from their, from their lead by example group or their leadership group, or the captain of the team, by how hard to train. So there was definitely a really strong culture there. people understood what it meant to be to be a target. And, you know, I think for probably 1015 years that they had that prior to pride sort of houses, I guess, emerging, following a period from wasps had to be the most dominant team of the last 10 years. So you know, the culture, the people and building the clarity about what it is that who you are, why you do what you do, and understanding the Why is important. Everyone's going to want every level how, but understand that why is probably the most important thing to get right.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 26:01
Actually just talking about culture, Paul, you became the defense coach for England in late 2015. And then you go on this amazing run 2016 2017, you win the Six Nations. There's some other victories in there as well, they may have been a victory over Australia, I'm not sure about them, to consult my notes. What was what was so unique about that team's culture in that period, that just drove those results and that success.
Paul Gustard 26:31
Look, I got a bit similar, really, I joined in 2016, Six Nations. So that was after the 2015 World Cup, langeland and galon Group, which was also disappointing for a whole nation and we didn't go out the group stages. So that was disappointing. So it was changed. You know, there are a few changes brought it in. And, you know, like Edie, I remember Edie ringing me up on a Wednesday. And I missed his call a couple of times during the day, and I apologized, over like an hour period, I apologized, because he likes to respond as quickly as he would. And now we call it fellow Venice. Look, I'm really sorry, I was to cause my, my little boy named munities. nappy changing. And he was like, well, that now now now you come to me and you and you wouldn't do it as a pretty decent line to throw on somebody you know. So I kind of took it on, you know, as it is that he's very clear about what he wants to do go for hours, make your mind up. And that was it really, I toss and turn around the idea. But I came into a group that was had absolute clarity. And he said, from day one, we want to win the World Cup, there was no no hiding behind anything, there was no this is where I'm not good enough players, we can do this go believe in it. He told the players at day one, we're going to win the World Cup who wants to be in the journey this was going to take us how we get there. And I think we had a group that felt inspired. And you know, the felt that you know trading is different than being for a period of four years or so with with a group that comes well and very good coaches have gone on to really wonderful things over in Ireland. But but actually just it was just a change. And I think the players following the the kind of humiliation really look around the group stages in the home World Cup we're ready for and we're ready for the fight and ready for the challenge. And we got a little bit lucky against Scotland game one, and we ended up economic 12 nine wins on the road. And then we go to game two. And again, Edie being ID came out in the press that we've gone over to give Italy a spanking and put a bit of pressure on defense coach but one by 50 points. And we've got we've got momentum and then we ended up equaling the world record number of wins in New Zealand, which included two six nations of Grand Slam first overseas win against Australia. You know, first of all wind down and down and Brisbane, you know, and it was just just just a brilliant time to be involved and contribute and take part and learn and get better and meet people and be inspired by by people and learn Blender things and I think I think that was the that was the biggest thing for me was the amount of clarity given the purpose of what we're there to do was to make England proud was to was to win the World Cup. And then, you know, absolute understanding to the players that we're going to work on these three things, fitness cola things that I mentioned, but by chance you're trying to work on our fitness and play more unstructured game to keep up with the likes of newseum to the pace as of the time so i think i think i think that was that was it you know that the training was was hard. It was physical, it was abrasive. It was intense. But it wasn't it wasn't reinventing the wheel of what you do is just giving real clarity demanding the standard that will take you on a test much.
Paul Barnett 29:39
We were lucky enough to interview Eddie Jones and it was a wide ranging interview but we also talked to him about the psychologist that was in use the Australian lady Korean raid and just how impactful she had been on on his star but I'm wondering Did you take anything away from watching Korean work that you folded into your own coaching now as a result,
Paul Gustard 30:03
well actually she, I left until then she joined after I left I left for the opportunity to consolidate was fortunate that family setback, and my cousin lost a baby. So I kind of left that to get back close towards home. So is it you know, a personal decision. So I missed out on that the kind of final year run into the World Cup really. So I never got to work current book there. Certainly, we had three different psychologists within that time, or different styles or different ways of doing things. And like always, I think you have to be open to listening and learning about different things and different ideas and different processes and different ways to motivate, inspire, and all that kind of stuff. And I think I've taken some of that and the club now you know, all this kind of circle work I spoke about we've employed a man called Craig whites who was used to be a high performance director for for Wales for wasp when they were dominance in the lions, is a belt and one was a football team over here in England, is to Georgia World Cup just gone and is just a sorry, Uruguay, the World Cup just gone. And he's actually just going a different journey himself. He's going to spiritual journey about human interaction, and you know how we can get to know each other better and develop stronger interpersonal relationships, which fundamentally will give us trust from a place of trust, to get safety from safety, hopefully get stronger performances. So we're using him in a slightly different different landscape to what he's done previously, I think I think, again, it's being open to different ideas and different ways of trying to elicit the same response. I am, was reading about 2018. Actually, when you when you came back to Harlequins, and there was you know, you were in the press saying the team wasn't competitive enough. And you were very vocal competitiveness needed to improve? And I was, was wondering, was there any particular
Paul Barnett 31:52
training approach that you implemented to try and lift the level of competitiveness or drive within the team?
Paul Gustard 31:58
Yeah, we did, we look around first thing, we kind of boldly put on what it what it is the identity team was, and one of the words we use was heart, there was to be hard to beat to be hard and contact areas, and so on. So we kind of try and weave it into our style, which was fast. So we also are faster than my keywords. So being very clear about identity, and we review ourselves against ourselves against these key things. And fast and hard can mean different things to us. But it's it's the base of it's very clear for the players about what it is we're expecting, because they can non negotiable non talent actions. And, you know, not an expression like tnts dynamite, and it takes no talent. And I think that those kind of areas that are very critical to us. [PB11] So that was, that was certainly something and and, you know, I think in our first season, we were unbelievably competitive, we had more more bonus points than anybody else in the competition. There's only two games, we're going to get some from the game, and then maybe three in the league, semi final of the European Cup, we just narrowly missed out on the top four, you know, the first three finalists team had been in for a period of time, we start the season off pretty well. And then we're, you know, like a catastrophic one of injuries. Unfortunately, the team got disrupted, and we are to three heavy defeats. And we've kind of just lost our rhythm a little bit, and we're just yo yo, and we're consistent. When we're competitive and function, we're competitive. And then it's like two steps forward, one step back, or even one step forward, two steps back at times, and we'll try and we're trying to, we're trying to work with a group and seeing how we can get our response. But year one, certainly. And then in the appropriate times this season, I think what we tried to do was create one on one contests, contests in the gym, contest in terms of quizzes, where people have opportunities to compete. If you want people to be more competitive, your current environment where competitions primary, and also very binary, maybe you or you to be those two, separate a little little drills where spotlights on them. And then wider scope and things where perhaps you create stuff in your sport, where where you create a one shot chance, you know, in any sport on that, on a game that weekend or midweek you get one chance to execute if you don't, there's no second chance. [PB12] You know, we made two mistakes that weekend and butchered three or four strong scoring opportunities, we just don't get that opportunity again, again, doesn't come back, everyone play back again in in September 2020, you know, that said done and we lost people to maturity mistakes. And that's that's the kind of element and training I think you need where they understand the pressure and the consequence that everything you do on the field, just like you do in life, everything has a consequence. And it got to be a positive consequence, or negative consequence that'll impact either forms the team or more than likely the energy of the team. And that's that's kind of where we're at the moment.
Paul Barnett 34:44
Paul, you said in an interview recently, I like challenging myself. I'm curious to see how good I could be and so I was wondering how did you spend your extra time in COVID to develop yourself as a coach was there anything interesting you found or resources that you engaged with A
Paul Gustard 35:01
lot of things really, you know, I was I was very despairing. First thing is I learned a set from from Eddie. And working with that in terms of, of managing your time. Like I think time management when you're in a club routine and things of that rugby players professional player, then it's a professional coaching as a junior coach, I kind of follow the program, or in this situation now I'm setting a problem. But one thing I learned when I was with England is a lot of time income when I was very structured, I knew what I had to do, then I'll say that when I can improve Hurry, flat tire view, and watch and so on. So I think for me, the first thing is create structure, create structure, my time identified three things I wanted meet myself to work on three things for that, for the stuff. First one was tactical development. So like how to improve our style of play, or how to improve our logistics operations department, how to medically improve our processes and so on. And then there was personal development, how do I improve myself? How do I, what areas of it of my coaching of my management Do I need to improve? And then the third thing was interpersonal skills and communication. So once I once I was clear about what it is that I wanted to achieve in that block, which at the time, we didn't really know how long was going to go on for, but but I was very clear that I looked for things that would help me develop my personal objectives, helped me develop my communication skills and interpersonal skills. And then who could speak to around tactical developments and who could lean on what can we watch to try and develop our games. So that was the kind of journey we went on, and did a lot of reading, which was, which was nice, I don't often get the opportunity to read I live quite far with my drones from the car for three and a half hours, four hours. So normally, it's podcasts. I go on to blinkist and listen to books, then try and get one out, enjoy, then I'll try and read it.
Paul Barnett 36:50
I spoke to a lot of people, they love zoom, webinars, learning opportunities, spoken a few different stuffing, football spots, a few in the football coaches, that kind of thing, really, you know, but it was it was all based off the back of clarity by what I was trying to achieve. And Paul, you've been very generous with your time. So just one last question if we could, and I know that you're still very young as a coach, and you're still moving forward. But already, there's a lot of momentum and energy in your career. And so I'd like to ask you, what's the legacy that you want to leave as you as you move through as a coach?
Paul Gustard 37:26
That's a good question. Look, I think I think the first thing is, though, I want to have a positive influence or impact on people's careers. And that can be in my current role as as a head coach can be on. Everybody starts medical strengthen condition affects performance and players. And positive impacts might mean that it's, it takes some tough conversations for them to get there. And there might not always like me for it, but hopefully respect for the fact that I've got their interests at heart in terms of improving them for the betterment. So for an individual point of view, or a legacy I'd like them to think is looking at, he's a good coach. He understands what it is he's trying to achieve. And and he's helped me, you know, I'm not I'm not here to be universally liked, or the most popular person in the room I made, I made to try and help the team perform. I mean, to give clarity and direction about what we want. And I think the best thing people could say is that I was fair that I was, you know, almost relentlessly fair, but very, very firm, and giving clarity and a lot of positive impacts on their, on their career in their life.[PB13]
Paul Barnett 38:29
What a wonderful phrase to finish on relentlessly fair. Paul, thank you very much for your time today. It's been excellent listening to you speak. Good luck for Wednesday night, and I look forward to seeing your career progress. And one day seeing you coach England in a losing test against Australia.
Paul Gustard 38:46
I've played Australia five times as a coach won every single one.
Paul Barnett 38:52
Well, let's continue.
Paul Gustard 38:55
Know, I spoke to Scott Wiseman, who used to coach in England an now coaching Australia, and I'm looking forward to cactching up with him over a beer
Paul Barnett 39:05
Well, thank you very much, Paul, and look forward to chatting to you soon. Take care.
Paul Gustard 39:10
Cheers, guys.
Transition 39:13
The Great coach's podcast.
Jim Woolfrey 39:16
I think that anyone listening to our discussion with Paul Gstaad will agree that not just English rugby, the game of rugby itself is in great hands with coaches and leaders like him moving the game forward. What stood out most for me were his views on the importance of innovation and creativity to your own development as a coach, and for wanting to be remembered as a coach who is relentlessly fair is something that we can all take lessons from. Coming up next on the great coaches podcast, we speak with Tracy Menzies, jack Bauer. Tracy is an elite swimming coach who has influenced some of Australia's most talented swimmers such as Olympians, Craig Stevens, Kai Hurst and Kirsten Thompson. However, she is most known for coaching five Time Olympic champion, Ian Thorpe, Australia's most successful Olympian until his retirement in 2006. Tracy speaks warmly and honestly about her career as a coach. In the moment she spent on the pool deck, guiding young talent in a truly golden era of Australian swimming.
Tracey Menzies 40:18
In every one of us, there's gifts and I think half the time. We're so in tune to booking to what everything like social media, how we were saying about phones, that the world looks so perfect through so many different lenses in so many different eyes that we seem to forget to be able to look in the mirror and go, what is it that I truly bring to walk to the pool deck or to my family or to my friends every day, and I think we were so hard on ourselves that we we forget to actually stop in relation be gratified, like take the gratification of what we have actually achieved. So like my own kids, I'm always like, make sure you say thankful, be grateful for the teachers that you have in your life, be grateful for the people you have. And I think teaching that sense of gratification takes you a long wide
Jim Woolfrey 41:13
and just before we go if you have any feedback on any of our great coaches episodes, or you know a great coach who has a unique story to share with love to hear from you. You'll find our contact details in the show notes.