Ep 012 - Chris O'Brien
Fri, 10/16 11:16AM • 50:15
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, athletes, coaching, rowing, understand, choices, crew, deliver, reflect, chris, finish, australia, bit, rio, olympic games, identify, sport, london, team, year
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Transition, Eddie Bolger, Intro, Jim Woolfrey, Chris O'Brien
Intro 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast. To me, being perfect is not about that scoreboard after this is a chance. You can understand the dressing, you can work towards a common goal. We are all on the same team. Now you do it to the issue of focus on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again. defenses got to be better. We've known great moments are born. Great opportunity.
Paul Barnett 00:34
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's Podcast, where we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. Our great coach on this episode is Chris O'Brien. Chris O'Brien is Australia's most successful rowing coach, with his athletes winning two gold and two silver medals over the last four Olympic regattas and six gold with numerous rowers at the annual World Championships. In August 2012, Chris was appointed head coach of rowing Australia, leading the team to a much improved performance at the 2016 Rio Olympics, where they won one gold and two silver medals. After the Rio Olympics, Chris left rowing Australia and joined the Australian Institute of Sport, which today is the lead performance consultant across a variety of sports. Chris is a self effacing and humble leader with a sharp eye for reading these athletes, and in his words, tapping the human spirit to get the most from them. He does this by helping them prepare for the physical and mental demands of elite rowing, particularly in the closing stages of a race when their mind and body is under pressure. And they are starting to compromise their technical abilities. He also has interesting views on decisions versus choices, and how by taking a very deliberate and conscious approach to decision making and training, athletes are able to make better choices in the heat of competition. And towards the end, he shares a great story to illustrate how coaches can get caught in the trap of focusing on the things that need improving with their athletes, and not the things that they are doing. Well, I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. The great coaches podcast. Chris O'Brien, welcome to the podcast.
Chris O'Brien 02:19
Thanks for good, good to catch up.
Paul Barnett 02:21
Can I just start off with asking where in the world are you today? And what are you up to?
Chris O'Brien 02:27
I'm in beautiful Canberra, the nation's capital in Australia. It is buckling down like cats and dogs here at the moment. But I've got to say it's actually welcome that we are actually getting into the rain. We don't get a lot in Canberra, I must say. But yeah, that's great. I've been tapping away here working away today, across a whole variety of matters, I must say and putting my hitting some different sports from from that which are, you know, traditionally had myself involved in?
Paul Barnett 02:56
Well, we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today we're gonna we're gonna talk a lot about rowing, which is, of course, where you did most of your coaching. I appreciate you have a different role these days. And we'll get into that as well. But I'd like to start off with a pretty broad question, actually, because you've coached at least four Olympic Games, numerous World Championships, and you've had the chance to see some great coaches directly. So I'd like to know what is it you think the great coaches do differently?
Chris O'Brien 03:28
Just start off with a nice, easy question their poor? Look, it is interesting, isn't it? Like? It's it's we probably wouldn't be having this discussion if the if the answer was a straightforward one. And I've got to confess that is something I have considered as the difference between the good and the not so good. My own personal opinion is is that connection with athletes, you know, the the athletes who win Olympic gold medals, good athletes, the athletes who come second, third, fourth, and fifth are also really good athletes. There's a difference as to why some winning some don't win. And it's there for I think, for good coaches to get the most out of the athletes that they have. And and I think we can all identify amazing athletes who have not been successful in achieving, say, an Olympic gold medal, and a variety of reasons as to why but the great coaches I think, are really those who that I look at those who really managed to harness a human spirit, that[PB1] human endeavor, and to truly understand the people that they're working with. That's not to say that others don't do that. We know there's a variety of things but but to me, our game is about pursuing outcomes through human endeavor. So it is that that connection at a very human level. That is the point of difference. We can do the training we can do all of the whether it's races, whether it's matches or whatever it might be, but the point of difference to me is, is that ability of a coach to be able to connect at a human level and, and exploit the the capacity with the capabilities of those athletes with which they're working.
Paul Barnett 05:11
Well talking about great coaches, I believe that you started off by watching your father coach when you were younger. And then later on, he's watched you coach as you've moved around. So what elements of your coaching philosophy were influenced by your father?
Chris O'Brien 05:29
Ah, look, I was I was pretty significant. So it was at a very young age that I would sit in and it was in rowing, I'd sit in a coaching launch listening to my father coach. And, and I do reflect and say that he possibly wasn't able to achieve as much wikid coaching at a bike on the world stage, simply because he was so passionate and believes so much in the coaching that he was doing with, with schoolchildren, basically, from about three years of age, I, I kind of think I can remember that far back. But I know from our three years of age, I used to sit in the coaching launch with him and listen to him, I reflect very strongly on what he held as being important as a coach. And there was possibly two key principles. And he's, he's two things were about making it fun and enjoyable. And, and the second one was, and we are talking the sport of rowing was about the skill development and being technically proficient. And I think there are two things that that I've carried with me forward in my coaching, then when I reflect upon my father watching me in my coaching, and he's very generous, sorry, I'm being sarcastic. He's very blunt and pointed feedback to me about my coaching, he is actually able to highlight the differences between how I take up that role as to how he took out his role. And I think the points of difference is perhaps that I make a greater effort, I think, to seek to understand from the athletes side, to seek to understand what they have, they're understanding things, how they're trying to achieve, how they going about trying to get the best out of themselves. So yeah, interesting, though, I actually enjoy the opportunity to talk about my coaching because it is other people such as yourself, forcing me to reflect upon what I hold us as being important. And what you have taken me there is to two really strong points that I think I carry forward while I do that I I have taken on from my father,
Paul Barnett 07:50
you've said that there is no cookie cutter approach to high performance, you don't roll out the same training program he you adapt to the combinations you have. So in rowing, how do you describe the role of the coach?
Chris O'Brien 08:05
Ah,
Chris O'Brien 08:08
it is interesting I and and that your quote is correct. I do believe that I believe it is it is too easy for people to think that it is about going back to now what did we do last year on the throw that out? Again, I believe very strongly in the most important part of what you're dealing with as a coach is, is that group of athletes that sit right in front of you. And as I said, before you seek to understand those athletes, what, what makes them tick, how they're trying to go about doing their business, and, and how you can best tap into their endeavors to make sure that they can deliver their best outcome. So as a coach, the role is very much about getting to understand your audience, and getting to understand how to get the most out of each of those people with whom you're working.[PB2] So yeah, it certainly is all the work about the training program. But I don't think there's any athletes signed the sport of rowing at the Olympic Games, for example, who hasn't trained have, who hasn't done a whole heap of work, who hasn't tried to optimize their own personal performance? So they've almost they've got to be Givens as far as I'm concerned, and it's in tapping their human spirit to understand how do we get the most out of these people. They've got to believe in the work they've done. They've got to believe in all of the things set before them in the preparation, but it's truly understanding how to get the most out of both individuals, not just the athletes. It's not each person has as an individual athlete. I did actually do a podcast and it was with two of my former athletes from two different Crews. And and I did reflect in that those two athletes did not run the boat together. And I just reflected upon how different the two of them were as individuals. And the difference in approach that was required to get the best out of each of those guys[PB3] . So yeah, Paul, you're taking me through some huge reflection here. And and, and I'm trying to be conscious I don't get too off track here because it's, it's usually rewarding for me to reflect on them on my journey. So thank you.
Paul Barnett 10:32
It's not you're not getting off track at all, Chris, it's great to listen to his story, actually. And I did listen to that podcast. And yeah, it was an interesting story where he talked about taking, I think it was, was it James or one of the rows and you were going down for an early morning row, and they just weren't into it. So you said, You know what, let's go for a coffee. And then what I wanted to ask is, what did you talk about? If you could tell that story? Again, I'm not really like to know what you talked about while you were having their coffee?
Chris O'Brien 11:01
Yeah, it was it was actually it was it was Duncan, there was Duncan free and drew again in the lead up to the 2008 Games in Beijing. Which by the way, on Sunday, I'm oblivious to the important dates in history, but apparently was our 12th anniversary on Sunday. So drew made sure that he came through with a message to to remind us of the occasion. So appreciate him doing that. But that that preparation was with Duncan and and Andrew, we we were staying at a hotel nearby to the rowing course we kind of bundle them out in the morning and hop into the car, the three of us. And we hit the like, been a very quiet journey down normally there's there's a fair bit going on, favor the banter and discussion going on. We were pulled up at the life we looked at over the life of had been silent, basically the whole way down. We're looking at over there, like it's still silent. I looked around and there was these empty, lifeless faces that were in the depths of a very heavy training block. And it was very much that that in to choice, yes or no? Do we do this or not. And I very quickly realized it was a no die, we weren't going to go on the water and simply turn and said, Well, it looks like you know a bit plain here is let's go and have a coffee effectively. So we turned and turned the car around, and the mood immediately lightened. Now, we still finish more training for the day, but we just dumped a session. We dumped it. We sat and had coffee, we had, you know a few laughs had a good chat over the coffee. And and we also spoke about the reason why we weren't doing the session. And there was a recognition from from both the guys that year, actually, it would have been an ordinary session. I don't think the mindset was right. You know, we're in that solid block. But But that said, we're able to have that conversation and then launch into our second of three sessions for the day having discounted the first of where they entered into that with a fervor to get the most out of that session. And likewise, the third session of the day, but it's just those moments. And I did say that it was a choice on my path. And I think that in sport, it is that ability is about able to make choices. And I differentiate between choices and decisions that as you develop as a coach, you get better at choices, yes or no. And it's in it's in it. It's becoming 18 you as to summing things up very quickly to be able to go yes, no, as opposed to, I think a decision which a decision requires a consideration of the pros and cons. And when you have two athletes that 196 plus centimeters everage of 94 kilos between the two of them. And you're weighing up, you make very quick choices about where you're going to go. And your back your judgment on that. But I do I think, yeah, that ability to make choices as opposed to decisions decisions, which are, what are the pros, what are the cons? Hmm, if I go this way, this is a consequence. I go that way. That's the consequence. But when you see in the car with two athletes, that really you don't think you're going to get a lot out of it, you make some pretty quick choices as to where you go to.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 14:27
Was there any particular event or circumstance that sort of led to this? Learning around choices versus decisions?
Chris O'Brien 14:39
Look, for me, I actually think I grew up in I'm originally from Ballarat in Victoria, and move to Melbourne but I'm from a state that you know, AFL is very prominent, and I remember watching a game of AFL on television, and the commentator, you know, there was a commentary kind of talking about something about a choice that some of them made, you know, they chose to put the ball out of bounds. And, and I and I can kind of put it back together, there was some consideration around that. And I do remember now I was actually in Ballarat. And I was teaching at this stage, because that was part of where I believe I developed a fair bit of my coaching and my belief system around coaching was in, in coaching school programs. But part of it for me to get better athletes in my school rowing program, I also built some connection with the school football team. So I spent some time also as an assistant coach with the senior football team. And, and I remember, the coach always used to talk about the quality of decision making as well, like, the better players are the ones who are better at decision making. And I connected these two events about the commentator talking about almost I chose to put it out of out of bounds. And in this whole notion of decision making in football, there's no time for decision making. And that becomes innate, and that becomes automated. And it's actually practiced behavior, or it's innate behavior. And so there's that reflection around ifl, I don't have the full clarity of the formation of all of those thoughts. But I know that's where it started. Because, you know, you're in the game of Australian Rules, football, you do not have time to make decisions. And those who go to decisions are the ones who get caught with the ball, and the ball gets turned over to the other team. But the one thrive, able to make choices. It's all No, I give it to this guy, or I give it to that guy. The ones who are actually able to do that, and do that quickly, are the ones who are more successful in the heat of the moment. So as a as a coach, I believe we continue to develop those skills around being able to make better choices over time. But they do start at a very deliberate and conscious decisions around what we do. And and I think that by the time we're at a high level, in our coaching, we're very much into choices, not decisions. That's not to say the decisions completely go. But we actually make better choices. And we're actually able to make those choices those Yes, no decisions in the moment in the heat of battle. [PB5] And the heat of battle could be to 200 centimeter athlete standing over your cyber war with that fish, and so ordinary, and they're looking for your opinion, you know, to standing in Olympic Games, with an athlete like drew GYN whose back is shot after the heat of the Olympic Games, and knowing that you've come in as two time world champions, and that the whole event is at risk, you know, the three and a half year campaign that had gone into that boat, and had positioned itself to be able to win and to win. Well, we've now placed under threat. And there was very much a need, then for sure, there was some nighttime decision making there. But there was some choices in the moment as well. That meant that that campaign stayed on the road and ultimately delivered, you know, the middle that it should deliver, which was an Olympic gold medal.
Paul Barnett 18:08
Full disclosure, I was there that day. I was working in New York. I was working in Beijing right on and, and I and I was in it at the venue when it happened. So it was pretty special moment to be in Australia and to see the success of that team. But I want to just pause actually, Chris, I want to get back to you know, you talked about human endeavor before and you talked about your father really having this having this focus on skill and also having fun. But when I was preparing to talk to you today, I was looking back through some video, you know, rowing races and the commentators always talk about the technical or the physiological aspect of the rower. So I would like to ask you, how do you balance this as a coach this approach to both physical and mental development?
Chris O'Brien 19:02
Yeah. Look, I, I firmly believe that the skill component is incredibly important. Wherever, absolutely, preparing the physical capabilities at the same time, and then you allude then to the the mental skills around that, and, and they all do linking. So that to me, you've absolutely got to do the physical preparation. But at the same time as doing the physical preparation, you've got to be doing the skill development and the mental development to mean that in the heat of battle, that athletes are actually able to make choices as well around what they're doing. So when you're halfway through a 2000 meter rowing race, and you're at a point where you've built up so, so much fatigue You're under pressure, your body's tiring. Your body state gives you cues around, yes, I'm tired. This is starting to hurt even more, my body's asking the questions, how do I make sure that my mind comes back with the right answers. That's where there is an ongoing dialogue in in the training around the physical, developing the physical capabilities, putting the body and the physical load, ensuring that we know what the skills look like and feel like as we are delivering that physical output. And then equipping the mind with the ability to be able to combine those component components and to deal with the external inputs that are coming in saying that this is under pressure. So for example, we do a lot of preparation around mental rehearsal and mindfulness. We do that work to make sure that we fully understand the behavior of our body. So what is our physical capability? What are the things that we experienced when their body is starting to come under pressure? What is it the starting to compromise our technical capabilities? And what are the things that we can divert our mental attention to, to ensure that we're actually able to deliver our best possible outcome.[PB6] And I'll give an example and I will go to a different Olympic Games, I'll go to the 2012 Olympic Games, one might say that we failed in the 2012. And up guys, because we only want a silver medal. And we had high hopes of achieving a gold medal in London. But the thing was that everyone was able to walk away from that event disappointed, but also able to acknowledge and that they were still respectful of their result, because they understood why they got silver. And I think that's a that's a challenge for people too, is that quite often the people who, who struggled with a result, that wasn't what they were expecting, probably didn't truly understand their own performance, capability and how they produce it. So it goes back to my point there with the London Games was that we understood exactly what our best performance look like. We understood what we needed to do to deliver our best performance. So when we started on our international work in 2012, and we raced the first World Cup that we went to, we raced in Lucerne, we led for 1800 meters over the Great Britain crew. And we lost it in the last 200 meters. And in the last 200 meters. We lost it because we didn't work as a crew. And we finished up with four people going in different directions doing their own thing. We why in the next three weeks, we did our homework around identifying what we wanted the last 200 meters to look like and what the time before that needs to look like to make sure that we could deliver that. We went to Munich world cap we meet it was great britain who beat us in Lucerne. we raced Great Britain in in Munich. We met them in the semi final and we beat them comfortably in the semi final. And we turned around the next dive into row them again, race them again in the final, and we bit beat them again in the final. Within had a break in training, we went to the London Games and in the London Games, we had our own who we want our heat and went through the semifinals, some anomalies in the progressions that went through there. But we finished up during the British in the semi final. We race them in the semi final. We led them through until the 800 meter mark and we were still in the low that they didn't hundred meter mark at the Edison hundred meter mark what we delivered I was out listen finish, and not him unique finish. And there's a whole heap of work that went into identifying what Lucerne look like and what Munich look like. So we delivered Lucerne, we got big, we came second. Okay, we can still do it from here. Unfortunately, on the day of the final, we got unfair lines. And we knew that with the possible possibilities at eight in London, we had unfair lines, the British drew the preferred line, the US won the other semi final leg of the second third line, and we got the third preferred line. We had a cross headwind, which favored the British there and we went down by under length. Now, do we look back on that race and feel that we failed in that race? No. We know why we placed ourselves at a disadvantage in that race. And that was because of what we delivered in our semi final. So a huge amount of work that goes into understanding what those races look like that we've got to the end of of London. So drew Guin was in that boat in London, and was he swan song, his final race as an international competitor, he had a perfect Olympic record to that point. He had Golden 96. Atlanta, cruel by injury in 2000. Gold in 2004, gold in 2008, coming in 2012 as a favor, doesn't win come second, but was still able to walk away from that, yes, bitterly disappointed, but with head held high and a full understanding of why, as a crew, they weren't able to deliver the performance that, you know, they knew they were capable of. But they knew why. And I think it's a really a really important lesson there about understanding what your performance capability is how you deliver your best performance, what it looks like. So that then when things don't go right, you perhaps have a better understanding as to why the outcome didn't go your way. But what we see there too, is that they are choices in the moment. So these athletes, they're making choices in racing, we're trying to condition that over time. I think in 2012, we had a 50% crew change between 2011 and 2012. And maybe if we'd had that combination together for a little longer, maybe we would have been alpha solidify some of those lessons and make sure that we're more reliable in delivering the Munich finish, not to Lucerne finish.
Paul Barnett 26:23
That's a great explanation. Thank you for sharing a crease I can, I can understand that. It's a must have been very disappointing, but also great learning that spurred you on actually as a coach, because after 2012, you were promoted, believed to be the head coach of the rowing team. Yes, it was disappointing in 2012, where we will be finished and Australia finished 10th. But things changed in Rio, you know, the team finished fourth. And I'd like to ask you, what were some of the things you first did when you took over and started looking towards Rio,
Chris O'Brien 27:00
who, and actually I have a game, I have very vivid memories in there. Because it was at a time where as a sporting system in Australia, we were going through some significant change. I started in October. And I had a period of time there where actually, I was trying to make sure that we had people in the right roles was the first thing. So I will give a specific example there, of where we had Lyle McCarthy, who had been our women's head coach. I don't believe that we were getting the best out of while because we had him in there's a women's head coach. And we're also asking him to deliver a crew performance. And he's he's an amazing coach is an amazing coach. And I had observed, you know, over a number of years, I'd been on teams with him since my first Olympics in 2004, had been on changing every year since. And I saw a guy who his best time was with a boat on the water delivering outcome. So we took a while and had the conversation about him not being the women's head coach. And we made him the we put him onto a project boat. And we took him from dealing with a whole heap of all the girls. And we focused him on one of the girls. And that female athlete that we focused in on was Kim Braden that Kim had had been in one sense an accidental hero in London assited gathered Lee, but accidentally in that she was rolling the double. And her partner Pratley had been on and off with the group stress reactions. So we got the single qualify that the final qualifying event, just to make sure that we have it in play, in case of Brooke didn't come up from injury at the games. And as a result, Kim won a silver in the bronze in the double and the single in London. For Rio, the strategy is very much about having her and loyal and support team focused on delivering that project boat that campaign. So So we went very much into a specific campaigns or the focus, and we identified Where are our best opportunities. So that that was one of the very first ones. We had some rearrangement in coaches. I certainly look back and I see some things I got wrong at that time. As I said the system was changing. I had to readjust the strategy. We're going from a situation of where we're, you know, we ran program through these trainings to the sport as well as programs through the sport that we were bringing those together into one entity and a rewrite of strategy to achieve that. So there wasn't long back to was reading back through that strategy. I spent about six weeks at the start of 2013 writing that strategy. And there's some significant insight in that, that I look back on and using my current work across a variety of other sports as well. So, but yeah, we entered, I went into a 90 day plan that that October, November, December into the end of that 2012. Year, GE wrapped around setting up for the start of 13. It was also around to identifying who were the coaches that we could we can take forward, we had a very clear picture of who the athletes were that we could work with, and put some plans in place. clear strategy, we did a lot of work around what our culture was going to be, and what were what were the values we're going to subscribe to, you know, a lot of work trying to set it up. I think we had a number of disruptors along the way that kind of got in the way of that. But I think ultimately, we were well poised going into into Rio. I do reflect we had a couple of misses in Rio as well. And I think that we could have been even further up the order. But nonetheless, I think we had we had a successful cycle. And I think, you know, we've now we've now got in Australia, a centralized program, where do you start that work? In the strategy document that I had written in the style of 13? Was the identification of the need for that centralization. And we come in set work on the centralization in 2014. And that's what's been set up for for the here and now, the work we started back then. But yeah, I certainly look back. And probably the thing I'm most look back on in that cycle, is perhaps some of the mistakes that we made in the moment in rail, that, you know, if we'd gotten them, right, maybe we could vssi even further up the middle table. Chris, I'd like to
Paul Barnett 31:50
just pause for a minute you were talking about the culture, you put in place the values that you developed when you were into that role working towards Rio. But you also talked about, there were some disruptors, could you talk about how you managed to deal with these people that were perhaps being a negative influence on you and the team?
Chris O'Brien 32:12
Oh, look, and it's a variety of variety of them. Some of that came from the complexity of what the Australian sporting system is, and me stepping out of just focused on a single crew, to being focused on a whole, a whole program, and a whole system of delivery. So not only were we delivering a senior team, so I went from dealing with a boat, I ran a domestic program, I had a 24 squad, a 24 athlete squad, domestically that I ran out of Melbourne, I had my international boats, my project boats, I work on an international season, but then I stepped into this world of where I had a full national senior team, as well as a broader squad that contributed to that team, as well as an under 23 team and under 21 team and under 19 team, a para team, like the level of complexity and the number of moving parts that came into that was then just huge. And my reflection back on that was it was around my own readiness to deal with the high high rotation right on the number of different issues. And then also to then the fact that because we're dealing at a higher level in a strategic level for, for our national program is in an interaction with a CEO and a board as well. I had really good relationship with CEO, I had good relationship as a whole with board. But you had to I learned over time about taking the board on a journey, and and who were the ones that need more information, and those who defer to others for their information. So there's that which was a huge, steep learning curve. And as I say, the complexity of our system, we're running seven senior training centers around the country, that we're having to provide oversight and management of in addition to that, you have a multitude of clubs that then sit beneath that, that are then contributing to a national system. So just just huge, huge complexity. I originally back many years ago, I as I've described, I did a lot of coaching the school level and some huge lessons from that. But it takes your stakeholder management that you identifying a school environment, takes it to a new level when you're then dealing with a national program. So that That to me was was huge. And I also look back to some of the lessons I originally did a at university a business degree in accounting and information systems. And I look back at some of what I learned in first year university and saying, but particularly stuff around Oregon, ization behavior that I look at. And I say, Wow, so much of this is actually so applicable and so true. And in that moment of, you know, very naive first year university student looking sign here or whatever, just tell me what the mark is to reflecting some, you know, 20 years on as to the relevance and applicability of some of those, those insights that we gained all that time ago. Look, yeah, just so many bits that you look at, but I've got to say, my, my greatest lessons have come from being able to step out of that role, and to work with others who are taking up that role now. And to see so clearly, so clearly see other ways of taking out role and helping others in how they take out their role.
Paul Barnett 35:51
So if one of these, these other coaches that you're talking about came to you and said, Chris, I want to set up a higher performing culture within my, my team, I want the values to be stronger, I want the behaviors to be to be more aligned, what advice would you give them,
Chris O'Brien 36:10
it's probably no different to my advice on the crew. And that is that every crew is different. So every situation is different. So that which is required is going to be shaped and nuanced to, you know, the context and environment within which we're working. My first thing is, yeah, it's not the cookie collar, don't turn with, or here's how culture development is normally done. Or, here's a plan. It's more, here's my ideas. Now, let's start to work through what the ideas are, and start to develop a strategy for how we're going to work through this in this particular context. But don't by any means think that I can get the complete answer from one source, I need to be inquiring, I need to be looking as to that which is going to work for me in my current context. So yeah, it's no different, it's no different to coaching. It's just another level. So the skills and the, what you're trying to achieve, really asked all the same, they just have a different level of what you're trying to achieve. So when we have a crew, we work within the crew, we have a culture within the crew, we have some values within the crew. [PB7] And we do go through that exercise, we have some rules that we observe as a crew. And all we're doing is taking lessons from the drill crew, and trying to expand it out to two crews, to four crews to eight crews, or a haul sport, or one sport versus another sport. So yeah, I won't cookie cutter it, other than to say, there are lessons and we need to explore. What are the other offers or the various offerings? What are the experiences of others? Now, what does it look like for me, in my sport, that's a bit simplistic, but I I'm just linking it back to the look, it's the same as as while I say about coaching, it is specific to the situation, the environment, the context of the individuals.
Paul Barnett 38:11
So you talk there, Chris, about sources, you know, sort of alluding to the fact that you're learning looking more broadly to gather information, are there any particular resources that you found useful as a coach?
Chris O'Brien 38:24
Ah, look, and again, this is a huge, huge amount of material. And if I reflect back on when I'll start here, hey, my coaching, and I was only the other day out in the shed thinking I need to condense some stuff down in my shed, but I have stuff back from, you know, the late 90s into the 1990s. In hardcopy that I need to digitize. There's a whole heap of stuff there. And of course, what happens when you sit down to say, Ron, I'm going to refine this a bit. You just have reading? And to be honest, I I don't think things have changed that much. Really, I I presented at a conference in Brazil, early last year 2019 for the Brazilian Olympic Committee, and it was a coach's conference there. And and the presentation I was asked to deliver was about the future of coaching, where coaching is going to go What's the New Horizons in coaching? It comes back to some of our said earlier, I believe that the the new horizon in coaching lies back somewhere in the past that I think we've told ourselves some stories over time as to what is important. And we keep looking for the point of difference for those who are successful, rather than looking for the point of commonality that sits with those who are successful. That goes through all the points around The technical, the physical, and the mental, and the melding of those together[PB8] . So I think I think they're, they're really important. But as I'm talking, I'm looking over the book a bookcase, and I'm reflecting on one book. There's there's a book over there and it's called Fairburn, on rowing, some talking rowing specifically, I think the version I have was like a 1944. reprint. And I bought online from the Isle of Wight into Australia for I think it was about $20 Australian. And it's a within rowing, it's a bit of a collector's item, I think the 1990, reprint can sell, you go hunting in different times, it can be as much as 1500 Australian dollars to get a copy. Clearly there's a reason for that. But I look back at that. And there's stuff in there from, you know, early last century that Fairburn had written, which is still so applicable to what we do today. And I think so. So when I, when I read, it goes everywhere, it's it's no one theme, it's no one common thing. It's just a huge opportunity to see where, where you can land. But But I look back at that, and that that's possibly the piece of written work that I would reference the most, and is one thing, and it look early 1990s, and I apologize for the language, but the mark of a man is the quality of these blade work is stated in there.
Chris O'Brien 41:34
But if we actually look at rowing crews, and we look at the ones who are pretty good, you will actually find that the ones are pretty good, they're pretty good blade work. And for the uninitiated, the blade work is that everything else on the end of the order you put in the water, that you really the mark of equality, you know, always person is their blind work. And if you sit there and you watch good crews go up and down at the World Championships, even in training, you actually know that, that one thing that's really important is quality blade skills. So that that's not something new. It's also something that we forget. And it's also the point of difference. The point of difference between success and not being successful, is potentially the quality of blade work. So yeah, it's it's it's a funny one and it's this is where I get myself kind of into a bit of a mental quandary, you know, exploring about the the point of difference and the point of commonality. So the point of difference for successful is what is it that's common. Now typing back, actually, I did a coaching presentation, poster 2004 on the big games, and I was in Queensland here in Australia, it was up on the Sunshine Coast, and I put a piece of video up of actually it was 2003 back in 2003, pretty Athens guys, I put a piece of video up of the pier that had just won the World Championships. And I think this group of coaches, I want you to have, look at this piece of video and tell me what you see. And I want you to take notes. And it's gonna go for about five minutes as a good opportunity for you to capture some thoughts. So coaches, students leaving around when why as I'm playing the video, pasting the capturing notes, we finish and I say right here. Now I'd like you to play back to me some of your observations, you get one point at a time, don't want everything you've got shares the chair around that everyone have an opportunity. And we went for about five minutes of feedback. And I said, right stop. So you're looking at a crew that has just proven to be the best in the world, they've just won the World Championships. The room here has just spent five minutes telling me what they're doing wrong. The things that could be better. Yet, no one has been actually able to identify the things that they do well, because it's the things that they do well, the things that mean that they're world champions, have a silence there for a moment. I said radio, you've got another one minute now to tell me what you see. And I play back a bit of video again. And you know, I could only come up with one or two things if they could identify as being done well. And it seems to me that, you know, all of our really innovative investigating, we keep looking for the other thing that we can layer in what else can we do? What else can we do? But we haven't actually identified what are the things we're going to hold true to and what are the things that truly are the the point of commonality, but as a result of the point of difference between the good and the not so good. I hope I'm making sense there, Paul, but it's it's a really interesting exploration there as to being able to identify What are the things that make it work? Because the coaching default is almost to What's wrong? What's wrong? How do I make it better? But in order to make it better, I've got to have the picture of what I want to look like, anyway, and what the good building blocks are.
Paul Barnett 45:16
Fantastic answer, Chris, I appreciate you sharing it. Thank you. One last question, if I may, I watched an interview from way back, I think it was 2013 or something like that, where you said, it's not about the workout, it's about the people. So I'd like to finish by just asking, what is the legacy you want to leave as a coach?
Chris O'Brien 45:43
I, you know, I I almost don't want to leave a legacy as such. Because I believe that my my role as a coach is to impact on people, without them actually knowing that they've been impacted upon. So I believe that the greatest impact we can have as a coach is negative. I believe that in 30 seconds flat, I can have a life changing impact on an athlete[PB9] . And it will be negative, if I want to do within 30 seconds. If I want to have a life changing positive impact on an athlete, I'm going to struggle to do that in 30 seconds. But it takes time. So the negative i can do very, very quickly. I could I could attack an athlete Personally, I could give them you know, some very pointed, Ill considered and timely feedback. And I will impact them hugely. And they will never, ever forget it. As a coach, when you're having positive impact on athletes, it takes time. It takes repeated effort. It takes a journey. It takes a commitment, it takes a relationship. And it takes a long time to keep overlaying all of those, those positive impacts and some negative, but you keep lying them in and you're lying them in and you're lying them in. And it's almost just assumed, it's almost just said, well, that's what we do. That's how we work. And it's not really that strong recognition around that's had an impact on me. So, so the legacy piece, really is is almost people kind of saying well, it's not a legacy. It's just that we have a shared experience that we've really enjoyed doing together, and we deeply value. And we've continued to stay connected to that experience [PB10] with head Allah, the text message from Jurgen, reminding me of the victory in Beijing in 2008. And he said, you know, what a great time and he just had a little icon, which was basically about, you know, perfection was what it was. So, yeah, the legacy really is the relationships that you have with people that are little, you know, they life lasting. But that takes so long, and so much investment.
Paul Barnett 48:18
Chris O'Brien, it's been a great chat. We've loved meeting you. Thank you for sharing your insights today. And we look forward to talking to you and saying feature success in the future in your new role. Good idea.
Chris O'Brien 48:31
Thank you, Paul. Thank you,
Transition 48:32
the great coaches podcast.
Jim Woolfrey 48:36
Hi, it's Jim, you've been listening to our discussion with Chris O'Brien, the lead performance consultant at the Australian Institute of Sport. What Chris has just shared, I've already found myself coming back to listen to more than once. Chris's insights have deep application into the corporate world. As a sales leader, I can often look at a team's result, and at times struggled to connected with the team's own expectations. Typically those expectations get reset. Perhaps it's more prudent looking to understand that the result only reflects the performance capability of the team. And taking the time to look at that would give me a better understanding is why things don't always go our way. It may even help define what the Munich finish could look like. Coming up next on the great coaches podcast. We speak with the head coach of the German boxing team, Eddie Bolger,
Eddie Bolger 49:26
four key areas in my opinion or my philosophy or is what I always focus on is to be a world class boxer, you need to be mentally strong, physically strong, a good lifestyle and technically and tactically developed know, as a club coach and as a young coach, you think you must do all this, but it's so much better when you when you can avail of experts and when you lead the program, get these experts in to help you lead the program. I hope everybody pushed in the right direction.
Jim Woolfrey 49:55
And just before we leave, if you know a great coach who has a unique story to share Share, then we would love to hear from you. Please contact us using the details in the show notes.