Ep 017 - Neil Craig

Wed, 11/4 9:08AM • 1:04:47

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

coaches, people, eddie jones, environment, head coach, role, leadership, capacity, important, neil, coaching, football club, afl, question, challenged, paul, decision, bit, situation, uncomfortable

SPEAKERS

Jim Woolfrey, Paul Barnett, Intro, Joanne P McCallie, Neil Craig

Paul Barnett 02:51

Mr. Neil Craig, good. Good afternoon to you and welcome to our podcast.

Pleasure to be here, Paul. And I thank you for asking me and sharing an interest.

Neil, can I just start off with a really easy one. Can you tell us a little bit about where you are today and what you've been up to.

Neil Craig 03:08

So I reside in Melbourne, I have been doing some consultancy work with the English national rugby team, coached by another Australian Eddie Jones, which has been fantastic for me in terms of my own professional development, and refreshing the way I think, and challenging the way I think so that's been really good. We can talk about that. But currently I reside in Melbourne. And when I'm back, when I'm back in Australia, not working with the English rugby team, I just I like to keep my hand in with the AFL, which is sort of my background in terms of being a participant, a player and also from the coaching and the strength and conditioning side of things. But at the moment, IT staff would you a bit limited to zoom calls and podcasts and whatever. But that's fine, because it gives you plenty of time to read and and use it as a chance to, as I said, to refresh and and get ready to go again.

Paul Barnett 04:04

We're very lucky to have you today. I guess we should thank the lockdown in some ways for making your time available. But Neil, I'd like to start by asking a question about your history, actually, because you've worked with some great coaches, Charlie Walsh in cycling, Eddie Jones in rugby and Malcolm blight in Australian rules football. What do you think these great coaches do differently?

Neil Craig 04:27

Well, they are different. Well, there's no doubt about it. And because they're outliers, and I'd throw in there Ric Charlesworth as well, I think who you've you've spoken to. So they're outliers in Well, first and foremost, they clearly understand that in the role that they have, which is head coach, senior coach, that it's a classical leadership role. And so they've got a really clear picture about what that looks like in terms of what I call elite leadership. And over that my journey You occasionally you will often you see coaches when they first start out in the role of a head coach, that they still basically act as an assistant coach. And so they still haven't got a grasp a clear picture in their head about what leadership is. So those guys are outliers in that area, really clear about what that looks like. So they create an environment where they don't take their hands off the wheel by any stretch of the imagination, but they create an environment where they trust people, they give a reasonable amount of autonomy, you know, to to other coaches and support staff, they can create an environment, which is about continuous learning. And that dovetails into a whole range of different areas, you know, being adverse ready, because that's an opportunity to learn if you're in the right mindset, refreshing the way you think, getting people in to your environment from other sports. So they have a humility about them[PB1] . It's really interesting, Paul, the older you get, the more you realize you don't know. And the more you want to know. And therefore you tend to open yourself up more and invite people in because you, you become really curious and these guys are curious, this, always wanting to do things better, is there a better way of doing it, a bit of a fear of missing out on what the next best thing is, so they can put that into their program. They bring a vision, and they're the keeper of the vision is really important. Because we all drift as human beings, and every now and again, they have a real feel of winter aligned when to realign individuals or groups of people back to the vision their own. So they have a they have this picture in their head about where they're going, what that looks like. But just as importantly, this this roadmap of how to get there, what and what's important to get there, and how will we know that we're getting there? Now that sounds easy on this sort of dialogue runs off the time pretty easily. But when you're in the chair, and you've got to know all that stuff, I've always you don't have you don't have a successful program. It's a really, it's a difficult, it's a difficult position to be in as a head coach, senior coach at the elite level, it's complicated, it's complex. So you better be careful who you put in the chair, you know, if you're involved in selection of people, because it's, if you get it wrong, it can be disastrous.

Paul Barnett 07:34

Neil, you're very generous with your time when it comes to helping other coaches, you often act as a mentor for younger coaches, especially these days, what are some of the biggest themes that that younger coaches talk to you about in your role as a mentor?

Neil Craig 07:50

Yeah, well, it's completely different to what Eddie Jones will talk to me about Paul, you know, and part of my role with, with England rugby, which is really, really interesting, because it is a highly experienced coach. mean, he's coached in four World Cups now, highly successful on the international stage. He's, he now encourages people to be around him, who can be critical friend, you know, they give him feedback on his performance. And basically, the better telling the way it is, because when you when you sit in the chair of a CEO, or a head coach, I know of a big organization, often you're the last person to get feedback, if you get it at all. And to notice, those people don't even want to, so to have two or three people around you who are who you have the trust in, to better tell the way it is, is really important to get that feedback for the head coach. And also you're you're a bit of a translator, often what the senior coach is thinking in the picture in his head and the standards and the way he wants things done, can sometimes get lost with other people. So your capacity to better take the way the head coach is thinking and, and maybe go and talk to people and help translate that they get the same picture in their heads really important as well.[PB2] So that's sort of a role that I would play with Edie, and one of the roles I play with Edie, and sometimes you just the listener, just sit and listen, you know, because and having been a head coach, my, my previous life, Paul, you have this, you have a degree of empathy for the job, which I think it's important for the role I play, and sometimes just to be able to sit and listen, not necessarily make any comments, but so that Edie can download or share a thought or share how he's feeling at the time. Because, you know, people think that these coaches, they get into these roles that are bulletproof, that they don't have self doubt that they don't get anxious. They don't have fears, which I do. They actually do, and as part of the job, but they have a capacity to still function under those sort of pressures.[PB3] But the capacity just to sit and download, I think can be very therapeutic and, and great for the well being of a coach, I wish I'd done it when I was coaching as a head coach, I wish I'd done it[PB4] . Natural fact, if I ever became a head coach, again, probably the first appointment I would make would be someone who could actually fulfill that role for me. Because I see it such as being so important, younger coaches, they just want to talk about the technical side of the game, you know, so that's still just learning the caper when they get in there. So it's more about your it's a lot more questions for them, I find it it's more questions for them. Whereas your Eddie wants me more questions, you know, so it's, it's sort of a role reversal to a certain extent. But the role of the mentor now, I think, in high performance coaching is, is crucial, because of is such a complicated and complex role to play. So we all need help. And, and the older coaches have been around for a while and who are happy to be vulnerable. And I had the humility, say, you're coming here, as I said, they still control the situation, they're still in charge, and they accept that responsibility. But they just want a bit of balance in their thinking. [PB5]

Paul Barnett 11:24

Neil, if you had a group of people in front of you who with with the thinking of becoming coaches in the future, and not just assistant coaches thinking of becoming head coaches, what would you advise them to be the top skills or competencies that they would need to develop?

Neil Craig 11:42

I think the important thing, Paul, is they're gonna, they got to understand themselves, they actually got to know why they coach. And that's really important, because where they gets really tested, is in when it gets difficult when the when environment gets difficult,[PB6] you know, the level that we're talking about in terms of high performance coaches in the sports, I mean, English rugby, huge interest in the world. I mean, I didn't know how I didn't know how popular rugby was until I went over there to do some work. And so the scrutiny of the job and the results. So, you know, it's all of a sudden, I mean, you work for a big, big company, but I get to read about your performance on the back page of the times, you know, whereas I do about Eddie Jones. And so it adds another layer to your capacity to, you know, to better perform your role. And to be clear thinking because is, is a justification you have to justify about why you do things. And sometimes that's, you know, the role of the media, you know, is is really interesting, diverting from you your question a bit, but in a lot of ways, the media keeps you accountable. Because I'll ask the question, why did you do that? Why is your team not performing? Or why is this individual player being allowed to do what he's doing? And this is where initially know yourself as a coach, and you know, the common term now being, you know, unless you have a really clear philosophy, you'll get caught out really quickly, you'll become you'll be, you'll be seen as very wishy washy, because you haven't thought things through[PB7] . So the capacity to think about your role in the media, hey, hey, you're going to your role about feedback? Do you accept it? Do you give empowerment, your relationship with management, your relationship with the team? How close do you get to the team? How close do you get the individuals your relationship about your you're thinking about leadership, so you got to you got to be really a pitcher on all this doesn't mean you can't change your thinking. But if you haven't thought about it, and I've got a lot of it sort of embedded in your thinking in a clearer picture. You can get derailed really, really quickly. And of course, being in a leadership role. That's, that's disastrous for the environment. So I don't know if that's answered your question there. But see, Know yourself, know why you want to coach. You know, when I first out of being a head coach, it was really when I reflect on it now. I mean, it was it was, it was a lot of it was about ego. You know, look at me, I'm now you know, I'm the I'm the head coach of the Adelaide football club. And yet, when I finished, it was more about my capacity to enable people to be the best, which is nearly a complete flip, [PB8] you know, about wireless coaching, and why I now want to work with the English rugby team and Eddie Jones and the players there. It's more about what you can do for people is where you get your satisfaction from, as distinct when I first started. And so you know, the way I think about coaching now is completely different to when I first started as a head coach, thank God. And sometimes it's when you when I reflect on that. You sort of say, Well, how do I get the job? Because it's sort of fun, I'm in this position where maybe I'm not maybe not suited for. So, you know, just to, to know yourself to know why a coach, and then to think, you know, one of the things that a coach that you've spoken to Ric Charlesworth, you know, I've spent some time with Rick, and that when I when I, when I leave his environment, like I know that I enjoy it is tough, it's uncomfortable, because he makes me think, Lucky questions all the time about why, why why do you think that way? What's your justification? What would you do in this situation? And so an old coach, when I was playing once told me, he said, I you're thinking about what you're doing. And so this capacity to think is really important to think things through about a debate about a question to be open to different suggestions, is really important. There's a lot in that. And yes, it certainly I get taught that any of any of the coaching courses that you go to your role with English rugby these days also involves the development of player leadership.

Paul Barnett 16:07

Can you talk a little bit about the areas that you've focused on in this this program?

Neil Craig 16:12

Yeah, well, it's interesting, the leadership question, Paul, it's, um, you know, it can be, I mean, we all need a minute without getting too, too in depth about the definitions of it. I mean, as soon as you influence someone, for me, you're leading, okay? So you can be a player in the team and have you know, and your behavior might be quite poor, and certainly not related to good performance. But if you're an it might be okay for you. You might say, well, it's, you know, it's just a while I am. And if I don't get selected, that's okay. But soon as your behavior influences someone else, you're you're exhibiting a leadership, okay, because you're influencing that, that other teammate. And so, I'm not saying that leadership is good, but it's still leading. It's still leading. So the capacity to influence is, is is where I sort of go with with leadership. So that's first and foremost.[PB9] And I often talk to the playing group. And in particular, I work with the leadership group of England rugby team, even though I do have obviously dialogue with all players, but those guys in particular, we talk a lot about your capacity, if you lead yourself first. First and foremost, qingyun. lead yourself. So what do I mean by that? leading yourself? Is, you show up on time for training? You first there? Do you do extra work afterwards? Do you have an involvement in team meetings? Do you wear the right? clothing? You're respectful to staff? So these are all things about? What are you doing? Because unless you do that, do you live? Are you a role model for the values of the English team? You know, if we had to pick people who are really role model those values, would you be in the top five or six. Because if you can't lead yourself, when it comes to trying to lead other people, you got no hope. You have got no hope whatsoever. So thought, first and foremost, if you it's about your capacity to lead yourself, if you want to be if you want to be considered a leader, you don't need an S I know we haven't even mentioned the title or captaincy or leadership group. So that's, that's one level of leadership is your capacity to lead yourself first and foremost, the extension of that, of course, is then just doing that. Paul, just doing that, by itself will influence our teammates because they'll look at you[PB10] . And so Paul was doing that really well. He trains hard. He gets to training a bit early and he does extra work after training. I'm like jumping with him. So all of a sudden Alvin's influence that person, maybe not even even without talking to the person. The extension of it though, on a bigger picture is your then your capacity to lead other people or influence other people. And they're clearly that can be on field and off field.

Neil Craig 19:06

The ultimate of all of this for me, is the picture I have in my head, the ultimate test is how does all that look under the pressure of competition? That's the ultimate, I'll guarantee you it'll be the same in your job. Okay, if you've got a leadership role and you join and you have Yeah, I would my my my judgment of you at the end would be how do you actually operate though when you're really under the heat? That's that's how I'm going to judge you. Not when sales are good, you know, just rolling in and for whatever reason, because we're gonna that's I mean, it's important but it's it's you know, when you're winning and that's that's easy. It's when you you've had some adversity well things not quite going the way that you want them to go or you've made a poor mistake or you've lost momentum in a game, or they've been some bad injuries. How do you now handle the situation when yourself Your own actual behavior? And then how do you actually conduct yourself with your teammates, and help them get through the situation?[PB11] So there's a lot in that. Okay. And it's, it's not, it's not for the, it's not for the timid, once you start talking about, you know, team leadership and accepting those sort of roles. So we spend a lot of time challenging and rewarding, you know, when we see when it's when it's a good time to reward guys and leisure group for the work they do.

Neil Craig 20:31

We reward that. And we're also in a capacity because of the relationships that we have. We need to challenge them to when the performance is not not a level with with education, because it is, it's a lot of it is about just you got to experience it, you debrief at camp, how do we do it? Do it better. And the next time that we get that experience, can we do it better? I mean, they don't go looking for adversity, because it will find you down in elite sport, it will find you you have to go looking for it. So the time will come again, where you will never opportunity, and we need to do it better. And that's that's your learning environment. You see, that's where the learning environment becomes. So don't you don't back off in terms of adversity. In actual fact, you actually clap your hands say okay, here it is beautiful. is another opportunity. Thank God for that. And let's see how we handle that. Yeah, that's, that's an elite learning environment. Because you value the lessons. And you, you value the lessons that you're going to learn and the skill set you're going to develop by being challenged in a whole range of different areas.[PB12]

Paul Barnett 21:40

I'd like to explore diversity a bit with you because and and how it links to learning and culture actually, because you've been involved with a very, very successful culture. In English rugby, it's it's talked about openly as being high performing. But you've also been called in to help with some clubs that are going through adversity and deep cultural issues, most notably, s&m football club. Yeah, yeah. So what are the building blocks? I don't want to get into the whole issue of you know, what happened to lead lead to decay of culture, or performance or behaviors. But I'd like to rather focus on one of the building blocks for an elite high performance culture, what's got to be in place?

Neil Craig 22:27

Well, they're a quick, layman's definition of culture is, I could come into your company tomorrow. And I reckon if I spent a week there, I could tell you what the culture is, without even talking to anyone, just by observation, and listening, because I bet at the end of that week, not not in every different situation. But I'd bet into that we'd sit down and say, This is the way you do things, Randy. And to me, that's your culture. It's, it's what you actually do, your behaviors that you exhibit. So I'm about to tell you the way you communicate with people in a meeting. Hopefully, in that week, there will be some adversity side that actually said this is how you handle adversity. This is how you handle errors. This is how you how you reward people. This is how you handle people that have maybe struggling with the environment is how you handle a poor sales is how you handle losses how you handle a win. So to me, that's culture is is the way we do things around here.[PB13] So in terms of the environments I have been in, I've been very lucky. I've been extremely lucky. So in my previous life, I was with my training is in Sport Science, in exercise physiology, and ended up being cycling physiology, natural fact track cycling physiology, with a guy called Charlie Walsh. When I first started with Charlie, Australia was considered on the on the international stage, just a laughingstock it was just a joke. Like, we'd walk into a stadium in Germany, the World Championship, and you can nearly hear the sneakers in the stadium. He comes a good time Australians, you know, good people. Fun people have a joke. Count when natural fact they might win occasionally, just by luck. And sometimes bit of luck does this go your way. But in terms of being serial winners, no. They'll have a beer with you. There'll be great fun, they'll have a joke. And I'll probably sell you their bike in their uniform at the end of the world championship and they go back to Australia. Having been in that program, after four years, when we walk back into the to the stadium in Germany. You could smell the fear of the opposition. Because we now come in and we had this reputation of these guys are now serious about what they're doing and they are fierce competitors. So how did that change? At the time, I didn't know how it changed, I was actually living in that environment and certainly wasn't because of me. But when I reflect back on it, it was because a guy like Charlie Walsh had this vision and this roadmap about what was required to be successful at the international level. So, always lucky to to start in a culture that was considered a laughingstock on the world stage. Four years later, as I was lucky to be in that, in that culture, where it had changed in four years, to be considered one of the best in the world. I started my AFL career in the Adelaide football club. So and I was lucky to be involved with I called Malcolm blight. And who, when we're at during that time at the Adelaide Football Club, we went back to back premierships in the AFL, which is very unusual to do that. So I was able to live in that environment.

Neil Craig 25:57

Then I went to later on in my AFL career went to Melbourne, and the s&m Football Club, which was completely different, you know, quite toxic in a lot of ways. But it was a great experience, to live in that environment for a period of time because you get to compare. If you only live in, in the best environment, you think everyone is like that, you know, and it's not, it's not true. And so then, just recently, I go into an environment that's been being created by Eddie Jones, which is world class again, what I'm alluding to here is that the environment for me gets back to leadership again, you see, when Charlie Walsh gets gets appointed to be the head coach of Australian cycling, because it's bottomed out. And so people now decide we need to change here. So when Charlie sits for the interview, to a certain extent, I mean, what people are asking, tell me, tell me what you think his environments gonna look like? And I and I hear his answer, say, we would mind a bit of that. At the same when Eddie Jones become the head coach of England, like this is, this is how I see the environment. And you've got to respect the history as well as I think there's a bit in there about respecting the history of environments. But every environment that I've been in other what I would consider to be world class, or as rock bottom is you can get both of those have been tied to the leadership. I actually, that's what I want to know, if I'm going to employ you in a in a senior leadership role, I actually want to know what you think, like she wants you to paint the picture about a whole range of different situations that we spoke about just recently, you know, selection, management of staff empowerment, leadership, Captain, see, whatever, whatever, I actually want to know what that looks like. And then what happens, of course, is that you can you can tell me what that looks like. But in the end, the real test is what you do. And your capacity to to drive it and, and to reward and to challenge it and deliver basically, I'm sorry, gets back the leadership again, there's no magic bullet. [PB14] And so it's about you just become inquisitive about the roadmap that the person has in their head about success. And then you make a decision as an organization, whether you want them to not

Paul Barnett 28:19

kneel I it's the answer. verres Knights very strongly from someone who's not performed or been in an elite sporting environment,

Neil Craig 28:29

your environment ball would be the same, you see. So I know. It's not totally the same because we spend most of our time training and perform on one day a week. Probably in your company you spend most of your time performing each day with, you'd say I've got time to train. So I understand it's not totally the same. But in terms of what we're talking about, you know, standards, exceptionality vision, how do you do things in your environment? How do you do things in a sporting environment? It's those concepts are the same, exactly the same. We can learn a lot from the corporate world and the corporate world can learn a lot from the high performance world as a 41.[PB15]

Paul Barnett 29:12

No, I agree, actually. And I think one of the areas that overlaps strongly and I think it's an era actually where there's probably more energy in the corporate world is innovation. You had a reputation actually as being quite an innovative coach. You know, Adelaide, you famously introduced the idea of training harder in the middle of the season to prepare for the finals and I think most teams are doing that. But what stops more elite coaches and elite sporting organizations from being innovative

Neil Craig 29:39

leadership. You know, he talked about the Adelaide football club. I have this I because of my background in sports science, I come into the football club. I've seen this done before in cycling. Okay, this this capacity to work hard and then taper. I then I pose that possibility to Malcolm blind, who basically, basically, he was the head coach at the time. So he's the decider on that. He doesn't say, he doesn't say to me, although I don't know anything about that Craigie. He's gonna do it. No, no, no, that's taking your hands off the wheel. Okay. You will ask him, you'll ask me some questions about all tell me more about this, what that look like, do you? How's it gonna affect their performance? And what sort of workloads are involved when you're going to do it? And he, whilst he's not a sport scientist, like most of these elite coaches, they have enough basic knowledge to ask good questions. Because in the end, he's the designer. Because if it doesn't work, it's no good hips at all. Well, Neil Craig did that. Okay, what my fault? No, no, no, well, you you allowed, you allowed that to happen now. So that's a leadership aspect, which means he's prepared to take some risks, because there's a risk with innovation. So he get he asked, he asked good questions, he gets the information he needs, he then puts it in, puts it into the whole picture, which is involved with being a head coach, not just not just the conditioning side of things, and makes a decision that he's prepared to, he's been convinced that this could actually be an advantage for us as an organization. Makes sense with the way it's going to be? You know, where it's been planned? And where it will be instigated? Is there a risk with it? Yes, there is, there is some risk with it, is the risk worth taking? Yes, it is. And so your best coaches, they're not risk averse. They're not they're not cowboys. But they understand that if you don't take risks, you end up being an imitator. So you imitate people all the time. Whereas your best coaches want to be innovators. Something is something special about being the first to do things, Paul, I reckon, I reckon that's great. Keeps you ahead of that keeps you ahead of the curve, because by the time someone imitates what you're doing, you'll do the next thing on top of it, you've improved that. And so that's one of the characteristics of your of your absolute best coaches, Eddie Jones is unbelievable in that area. Like he's, he's, he's uneasiness about not having something new, to follow around with an experiment with to make us better to make England better, keeps him awake at night. And he's prepared to take some risks. Now, don't always get it right. But they are prepared to take those risks.[PB16] So that's, that's what I would say is that, and that would be one of the questions I'd want to know if I was interviewing for you as a head coach. Tell me about your philosophy on innovation. You know, I'd want to know that, if it was important to me as an organization, because that's part of your that was going to be part of our environment. And then of course, you know, you've got to recruit people who are up for risk, and a good thinkers, and we'll challenge thinking, and we'll bring you ideas. And then, in the vulnerability of an ad giant, it says, Now you can, we can bring in a soccer coach, we can bring in a ice hockey coach, we can bring in Ric Charlesworth. We can bring in anyone, if I've got some information to make our program, maybe better. Let's bring him in. Other young coaches and insecure coaches will turn on honor we don't want people in here. It's a secret men's business. You know, we can't let them in. So we've we've had, we've had opposition rugby coaches, sit in on Eddie's coaches meetings, because he wants to pick their brain about way to do things better. So that's, that's how I see innovation. so important. So important. But once again, it's a philosophical decision you got to make.

Paul Barnett 33:50

I remember reading many years ago, that you brought Jen Sterling in, I think, to the team after she'd taken the team to the World Championships. And that was, at the time you were there was some discussion around why. And I think that's now that I've interviewed you today. I understand that your view on looking more broadly. And being curious was a driver of that decision.

Neil Craig 34:14

Yeah, Gen stone. And I mean, I'd get Gen Sterling into any high performance environment tomorrow. Lisa Alexander, she could step into a role to water No, I've seen I've seen Lisa, I know Lisa, I've seen her involvement. So it was about, you know, an AFL football up in the Ford line. I wanted to know how in basketball, you set screens, you know, just little blocks here and there. What they do really well big part of their game in terms of basketball. So why wouldn't you get an expert from basketball to come in and coach the coaches about how to do that and see whether what you can take from that sport and add to AFL and that's been one of the great things about AFL up into this point of time, Paul, I think is their willingness. capacity to do it from a financial point of view. And I think it's quite a game to evolve so quickly is they they are known for looking outside of their sport to get different ideas, new ideas, fresh ideas, different ways of better different and better ways of doing things. I think it's been one of the great things of I feel I just hope it's it hasn't been stifled now by you know, the this Coronavirus situation where from an economical point of view, it's just going to have big implications on on professional sport.

Paul Barnett 35:34

I'd like to talk about the topic of resilience, if we could, Neal, because in preparing for today, I saw this quote, and many articles where you say good things happen to people that keep showing up. Yeah, personally, I think that's very, very true. But I'd like to ask you, what are some of the best methods you found for helping athletes build resilience?

Neil Craig 35:56

Once again, I'd sort of go back to the definition of what resilience immediately most people think it's about how you handle some form of adversity or crisis. That can be a loss that can be a poor form, it can be an error on the pitch in front of 100,000 people. It can be criticism in the in the media, and it is that that is part of that. But it's also being able to handle success. So you need to be resilient, to better handle success. Because if you're not resilient, you'd be you become very inconsistent, because success to juices people. I think as human beings, we've evolved to see the comfortable environment, our body is, from a physiological point of view is geared to bring it back to equilibrium doesn't like to be stressed. So it's got all these internal mechanisms that if if you start to overheat, get rid of the heat. And I think as humans, we tend to be like that anyway, like we'd like to be comfortable. Whereas your best high performance environments. Eddie Eddie Jones, Ric Charlesworth, Charlie Walsh, that they are very, very uncomfortable about being comfortable. actually think they seek, they seek ways to keep things uncomfortable. Because when that's when you really learn, like you learn you when you first learn to drive a car, like it's uncomfortable isn't like it if you everything's highlighted, and yeah, you got to push the accelerator down, you got Reich's and the indicators, and whatever, eventually you get to a stage where quite comfortable. And if you want to get better, if you want to get better at that, you need to actually extend yourself. So you might better drive a car around Prague all day. But if you want to be really uncomfortable, we'll put you in a Formula One. And so your skill set will have to increase enormously, because you'll be totally uncomfortable again. And so this capacity to to embrace the adversity which, which is a form of training for you.[PB17] For example, over my journey, I left home at 13 away from away from my family, but I had to go from a country area into the city to go to school at 13 years of age. Now when I look back on that I had to do that. But that made me really uncomfortable. But I survived. And I developed different I developed skills much quicker than a lot of my lot of my mates who are at school living at home, because I had to get myself organized in the morning to get to get up. And to get my own breakfast, I had to walk to school and get driven to school, I had to organize my own time, the whole range of things. So all of a sudden, it develops a skill I've spoken to you about when I was a head coach, you know, you're trying to be a head coach of an AFL team. And my youngest daughter was quite ill at the time. And so you remember driving up to the hospital at one stage and we just lost this game and you put it in, you put it in perspective, because you've got a young daughter in hospitals, but you still have to deal with that and still coach because the game they really didn't care that I had a sick daughter at that time. So you learn you learn this skill of how to manage that situation. You got injuries, you got losing, you've got criticism, you got all this, these things now, if if you're in the mindset of being combative all the time in the adverse situations, to me, you lose your but you don't see the opportunities that are involved. It's a bit like criticism when you're coaching. Okay, none of us like to be criticized in the public arena like it, I don't care who you are. You can become quite combative. As a coach with that. And you can say no, I'm not making any comment or not going to be interviewed. We give one word answers you know, you become you're not a great advertisement for your football club. So eventually I got to a stage is where any criticism, the first question I asked would be, is there any truth in it? But ask myself that. And if there's no truth in it, I develop the school where it's just dismiss it. Every now and again, no, you deep down, you know, internally no truth in that. Yeah. And so there's the capacity to reflect and to learn to take something out of it[PB18] . So that's when I was talking about the media can be a great accountability tool, because they'll ask the questions, particularly in the case of the media, which is huge in high performance sport, up, it's a big stakeholder. And so you need to have a good skill set to better manage and work with them. Yukon is a head coach, just dismiss it because it's, it's part of your role.

Neil Craig 40:45

And the example here would be is that I identified three or four people in the media that worked in the AFL, who's what would I call it, I could actually, I could trust their criticism. So when they criticize the club, or that, or they criticize my own individual performance as a coach, because of the the history of that, I would actually say, is there any truth in it, because I trust their criticism. So all that so you get, you get an opportunity to learn. So once again, it's just growth mindset. It's just capacity to keep calm and clear thinking, as I said to you before the ultimate test, the ultimate test for you, or for me in a leadership role is how do we react under the heat? And so in a lot of ways, you're welcome, this adversity to come your way, because there's an opportunity to hone your skills to better manage, because it's a really important skill, when you're in a senior leadership role, because people look to you. Right? What are you going to do now? what's what's new, we're going to do now what's Paul going to do now? Because they're looking for that leadership aspect. And so I think it's, I think it's you cannot be successful, she can't handle adversity, is impossible. It's just not going to happen. So you need to be good at it. And therefore you need to embrace it, and see it for what it is not saying it's pleasant. But it's it's the old, it's the old driving theory ball, you only learn it's a learn new skills. You know, when when it's a bit of heat on when it's when it's uncomfortable, and things go wrong.[PB19]

Paul Barnett 42:20

It's a fantastic answer, Neil, thank you. Thank you for sharing. And I would like to take a sidestep, actually, in your one of your early coaches, Robert OT, in was talking about review. And he said he doesn't forget people. He's very serious about you and caring for you. But I'm very interested in finding the line with players because you can be too intimate with them. And then you can also lose your ability to be dispassionate and make difficult decisions. How have you found that line? And what advice would you give to others on finding their own line when it comes to being too close to players?

Neil Craig 43:01

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Robert Odie. He's no longer with us in actual fact, is, he died. Very close friend of mine. He died last year. And he was my first he was my first coach, when I started playing at the highest level in Australian football. So he was a great mentor of mine right to the end. And he can talk about not forgetting people, he told me that he told me that that value. Because in the end, Paul, what else have you got? I mean, in your company, you've got to, you've actually got to get the result. Yeah. And Simon in high performance sport, we've got it. In the end at the level we do that it's about results. That's, that's important. It's not at every level, you play it, but at the level we do, looks about results. So what have you got apart from people to do that? That's your that's your greatest resource. And so, you better you better have a great skill set and understanding of human behavior. And so really, what we are as coaches, or men in the leadership role when in coaching roles as well? Is that all we are is we're behavioral scientists, just because you're working with people.[PB20] Okay, so the way you operate is completely different to me, and you're, you know, it's I need it, but I need to know you. Already, I read a thought a great analogy the other day is that, you know, if I was always coming and coming to work for you as a direct report, I'd actually want to get to know how you're routed be some, some areas that you don't want me to come into, you know, and I would respect that. But I need to, I need to better read your user's manual. You know, if there was a user manual about Paul Barnett, I actually want to better read that and find out about how you work, what makes you think and what your values are. Because that's important, because in the end, you know, I'm working with you and we've got to get a performance here. And so You know, we need to know each other. Now, do you forget people I got, I don't remember of one that I've coached and whatever. But you see, if you, if you ask any player, a better coach that you remember, for good reason, that's one of your best coaches, they'll better come up with a name like that. And if I asked him about a coach that they remember, you know, that was one of their really poor coaches, they'll better come up with a name. And if and when you ask them why it'll be about the way they made them feel. Every time it's about emotion. So your capacity to know people to help people. And the bottom line is to care about people. Okay, so the care factor is huge. Because if I know you care about me, all, I'll start to build some trust with you. Now, that doesn't mean you can't have a tough conversation with me, it doesn't mean that you want to dismiss me from my role. But if I know if I trust that you care about me, I'll go a long way to do the best I can possibly do in the situation. So this key effect is really important.[PB21] I'm in the working one AFL club, we actually, we spoke to the playing group about how they, what they expected from the coaching group. Okay, so this is elite perform once. And we said, What do you take from the coaching group, and the number one thing that came back from them, it wasn't about game plan. It wasn't about teaching me how to kick wasn't about contracts, it wasn't about selection, the number one thing is that we just want you to care about us. as coaches, we want you to care about us, what does care about you care about you means I want you to be the best player you can possibly be. And I'm gonna be here to work with you, and provide you with feedback and some maybe some strong feedback, that's a key factor. So if I really care about you, I'll put time into you. And I would be prepared to tell you the way it is, I care for Eddie Jones, I really care for Edie. Therefore, if I really care for him. If I have to have a conversation with him about say, a behavior, which I think is not conducive to the performance that he wants to the team, I care enough to have that conversation with Eddie, if I didn't care about or would have, the more we do what you like it. So the key effect is really important. And that's, and that's getting to know people, you know, so and we're all different. And the way in that key effect between you and I, if we if we develop that relationship, and it takes time, Paul, and that's the other thing. It's time consuming. And it's easy not to do because of that. But the relationship between you and I would be different if relationship between Jim and myself. But there would be a relationship there. And it would be different. Because we work out what that relationship needs to look like in terms of as to get the performance.

Paul Barnett 43:01

You want? I I'd like to follow that that question up with one that may that may be too close to home, I don't know. But I'll ask it anyway, you've been, you've worked in environments that have been ethically challenged, either the sports been ethically challenged, or the club has been ethically challenged. And I think this is quite interesting, because you've probably had more experience at it, dealing with those environments or being near those environments than anyone we've spoken to. So I'd really like to to ask you about what advice would you have for someone who's in an environment and they're feeling ethically challenged? Either by the team? Or the administration?

Neil Craig 43:01

Yeah. Okay. So I've been, I've been in one of those environments, I've been in more than one. And that's why it's good. But it's good to have been in those, because they're always you have this perception that every environments like the Adelaide Football Club, or like the English national rugby team has not. So first and foremost, is the world not perfect. And when I first started coaching, I everything was black and white for me, like it had to be perfect. And yet you're dealing with human beings. So there needs to be a degree of tolerance. I think what you're alluding to those, you know, where there's a Is there a tipping point? So first and foremost, an understanding is I want to, if any of this sort of situation, where it comes down to ethics and you know, maybe something you consider is not right. Because I'll just divert a little bit there because in leadership roles, the thing that challenges you the most is to make decisions that you think is right. And that's what that's what your followers wants you to do is to make decisions that you believe are right decisions. And yet there's this this, these, these political is safe these popular decisions that keep tapping you on the shoulder No, no make the political decision make the public pillar one came back the popular one, make the easy one. But part of your role and responsibility and accountability is to make the right one. You get into those situations, and I try and put myself in other people's shoes to start with, about what why they are actually thinking that way and behaving that way. Just so that I, you know, maybe there's something I'm missing in my thought process. So I put my I personally put myself through that situation, then, if, if I still think No, I don't understand that, or do understand it, but I still don't agree with it, I'll make an endeavor to try and change people and change behavior, and do what I consider to be the right thing. And that will either have an impact or one way to change it to a certain extent, or what better change it eventually can get to the fact that that the environments not for me.[PB22] And that's okay. And that's at a time because see the the environment that I created. And we'll talk about this course, the culture that I created at the Adelaide Football Club, wasn't for everyone. And when I exited a couple of players for a certain situation, I remember this quite clearly at a press conference. So that asked the question that, you know, Player A and B, have left the club, they weren't enjoying your football, you know, they weren't enjoying their football at the end, like football club. What do you think about that? You know, because that's a big thing. You know, we're the players that don't enjoy the end of a football club. And I remember making the comment, well, that doesn't surprise me with the, with the standards and behaviors that we have at this football club. And I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but they are right for this environment. For the standards and behaviors that we have, and the way we expect people to act, I understand why Player A and B wouldn't enjoy their football at this football club. So it's best that they leave. So they can go to to another environment and find an environment where they do enjoy it because it's important for them to enjoy enjoy their football, but it won't be in this environment. So if you find yourself in those, and you can't change it, at some stage, you might have to exit yourself out of that environment. And that's okay. That's okay. Because otherwise, you get into this area now of mental health and well being where you can't perform at the level that you need to perform. And so you have a responsibility to change the environment to a level where you can operate and perform well. Or you exit yourself out. Don't stay in that environment, if you can't change it, because your performance will drop away. And eventually, you probably get excellent anyway. So the extension of that is and I talked to young coaches about this, who wants senior roles, senior coaches wrong. He says, I'm going to go, I'm going to go and there's a job available at a couple of clubs coming up. And I said, Well, what tell me some of the questions you're going to ask you was tell me some of your interview questions that you're going to ask. I said, Well, what do you mean interview question, they're gonna interview me. I said, No, you need to also interview them. Because you need to know the environment, you need to know what their way they do things in their football club to the best of your ability. You know, and sometimes that's difficult because it's an interview and necessary in their living it particularly when things go wrong, which is your ultimate test. And we've spoken about that don't really know, but to the best of your ability, you need to know what environment you're putting yourself into, before you jump into it.[PB23] So if we're going to come and work for you, I'd asked you a lot of questions. And you certainly asked me a lot of questions because you're employing me, but in my own way, I'll be interviewing you. And then I'd be trying to find out about the environment I'm going to maybe put myself into, because if I'm going to do that I want to better perform. So it's it's I don't know if that answered your question. But it's tough working in an environment where ethically you you're not comfortable. It's easy for me at that stage. Because, you know, I've been working for a long time, I didn't have a house mortgage. And you know, and sometimes it's it's not as easy just to exit yourself out. Even from a financial point of view, you know, you could, but I understand that, but it's it's a tough environment to be in.

Paul Barnett 43:01

I think the message of giving yourself permission to leave an environment that you're finding ethically challenged is a great piece of advice. Yeah. You know, just just, it's okay to leave you don't have to fight to the very end to prove that you can change and they can change. I think it's wonderful advice. Yeah. And I think the other thing is, too is that you know, if you're in charge in a in a senior leadership role is not to try and make the environment for everyone.

Neil Craig 43:01

You know, which is what I alluded to with the NBA Football Club, is I had a picture of my head in in, you know, my philosophical beliefs about standards and behaviors that I thought were To to, to, to creating a winning environment. And they and I was quite comfortable to know and to say to people, this is not for everyone. And I don't want to make it for everyone. Because if I try and make it for everyone, it'll be wishy washy. So I was quite happy for wasn't happy, happy is not the word. I was disappointed that those two players left, but I understood why they left. And I understood why they, they couldn't enjoy their football with the way they wanted to think and behave in this environment to have that that would didn't sit in the middle. So I needed to go,

Paul Barnett 43:01

I might, I might lighten the mood for a moment. You've got, of course, this is a podcast and no one can see but you're in, you're in a room full of books, it looks like a great space to learn. And so I'd really like to know, if a if a young coach asked you, Neil, what a couple of resources, I should really use an explorer to help me with my coaching, what would you say to them.

Neil Craig 43:01

And I think I think mentors are a really important ball and I. So I would, I would encourage them to get mentors that they trusted. And people have had a lot of experience in the sport that they're working, not necessarily the sport, but in their sporting environment. Because it's they can accelerate your learning. Now that often a good mentor, through good questioning and listening. And suggestions can stop me from making an error that they made, which might set me back for 12 months. So all of a sudden, my my learning experience has been accelerated because of with with good wise, you know, great wisdom from someone else, I don't have to make that error. So that makes sense to me to have those people around you. Okay. So that would be the first thing. The other thing is that you've mentioned, you know, my office here and the books. And I learned this by my just by my association with what I consider some of the best coaches in the world that I've been exposed to, is that they're all great learners have this unbelievable appetite for information. And into one in today's technology, you know, around the world, like, I'm talking to you now in Prague. So we can exchange ideas and have a conversation. So even just that, but I can, you know, when people write something like it's see a thought process, so I can go and read about that now. And it's unbelievable. Some of the some of the information, actual fact it's information overload. And so as a rule skill now to know where to go. And it doesn't mean everything you read that you agree with natural fact, you should probably read it, you know, with a really questioning mind, or I agree with that. And I get really interested when I read something or talk to someone that has a different point of view. To me, this, this is interesting, tell me, tell me, tell me why you think that tell me a bit more about this thinking, you know, because it's completely different than what I think I get really interested in that. And the other thing is, you got to be careful, you don't just fall into the trap of becoming an accumulator of knowledge. Like, I think you've actually got to get out there and use it at some stage and try it out. That's the rule. That's the rule out of it[PB24] . So I, you know, I'm starting to come across more and more people in the world who in terms of being a resource of where to go for information, they are unbelievable. But if you talk to them about you, but tell me about the application of this information, they can actually tell you about the application of it and the experience and the wisdom of it, because I actually haven't done it though just accumulating. So this is this two levels of it. One is the knowledge that's there, and being able to access it, access it. I think the room challenge and the excitement is I'm going to go out use this tomorrow, I'm going to try this out, you know, in the leadership meeting, or in front of the media, or in a team meeting, or in a staff meeting, or, you know, I'm going to have this tough conversation. I've read this about feedback. That's the real challenge. That's why I do like to better get out on the grass and get into the application. Well.

Paul Barnett 43:01

Neil you've been very generous with your time today. I'd really just like to ask you one final question, if I could, and it's in connection to a quote that I found it goes back, it goes back 1516 years, actually. But I'd like to just read it. It says Craig points at the wall to make his point. In reality in 100 years, I will be one of those bricks in the wall. That's really how insignificant you are in history. But it's an important brick at the time because that brick in the wall is there is playing a role. So the question is, what's the legacy legacy that you want to leave as a coach?

Neil Craig 43:01

Yeah, there's an interesting one for that. I remember that. And that was towards the end of my tenure as a football club member talking about that, because that was, that was a tough time, things weren't going well at the club, as in the scoreboard. And so with, in conjunction with management, and it was a really healthy conversation over a period of time, I made a decision to resign, you know, which I never wanted to do. But I'd made a pact with the, with the management of the Adelaide Football Club, that if at any stage, they didn't think I was the right person, they would come and talk to me about it. And we would, we would end the relationship. And if at any stage, I thought I was in the I wasn't the best person to coach in a football club, I would come and talk to them about it. Now, when I make when we spoke about that, I just assumed to be them coming to me. But because of the situation, which I probably don't need talk about here, on this, I got to a stage where I believe I wasn't the best person to coach a football club. So I needed to resign. So well, that's what I was talking about there is at the time, you have this responsibility to the club, to make it the best environment you can possibly make it for to enable people to be their best.[PB25] And that means that doesn't mean you give up at the first, you know, the first sense of adversity or a loss or whatever. You know, we've been talking about the way you do things, which is culture, we've been talking about standards of behavior, we talking about caring for people, we've been talking about enabling people. So I just think you have a you know, when you're, and that's probably my thinking as a coach, not everyone thinks that way. And that's okay. But I think once again, you pull back on your thoughts about how you think about it. And I just think that, when we're talking about the brick in the wall, that's part of the wall that was building and will continue to build, I just want to make sure that that particular brick, which was me at the time, had some substance to it, you know, didn't get salt damp around it and bit crumbly, or whatever that had some had some substance to it. So that when the next person comes along, is there's something to build on. So this old adage of, can you leave it in a slightly better place than what you found it? And if you can do that, you know, in any aspect of your life? Well, that's that's how organizations and individuals evolve.[PB26] So when I was working with you, as a mentor, can I leave you with slightly better personal way you think, maybe just a little bit better today than you were yesterday. And that's how that's how you evolve. So that's what I was talking about there. That's sort of the legacy. My guess my thinking got really tested at the time during resign here, or that set a big call to resign, you know, halfway through season. Anyway, that was the decision i made

Paul Barnett 43:01

Neil Craig, it's been an honor to chat with you today. It's a real privilege for Gemini and we thank you very much for your time. The great coaches podcast.

Jim Woolfrey 1:02:55

Hi, everyone, its Jim here, you've been listening to our discussion with Neil Craig, the key highlights for me were innovators have an uneasiness with not having something new to make their teams better, they're uncomfortable with being comfortable. The best high performance coaches are curious. They think more broadly as to the types of resources they access to improve team performance. And a good test of leadership skills is how you react and how your performance is being viewed when under pressure. I hope you enjoyed it as much as pollinated. In our next episode, we'll be speaking to Joanne P. McCauley, for red, she is called by her athletes. Coach P.

Joanne P McCallie 1:03:34

I hate to break it to you. But I'm not crying. I'm not crying about this. This is not something to cry about. This is a suffering that's going to lead us to incredible things. And of course at that moment, they probably thought, I don't think so. But I also told them revel relevancy is earned, you know, you don't become relevant because you sign on to some great corporation or you wear Duke on the front of your shirt, you become relevant by action and by each team. And so somehow in there, the team figured out that we had to make ourselves relevant. And it was coming from great suffering. I mean, people questioning us and of course, the coaches always get attacked, you know, you got to win basically every game, or else right.

Jim Woolfrey 1:04:20

And just before we go, coaches are not usually the type of people who seek the spotlight. And so if you can put us in contact with a great coach that you know, has a unique story to share. We would love to hear from you. You can contact us using the details in the show notes.