Ep 018 - Joanne P McCallie
Wed, 11/4 9:09AM • 54:49
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, people, coaching, team, student athletes, game, person, women, choices, book, player, talk, michigan state, joanne, philosophy, sport, big, suffering, life, duke
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Steve Bann, Transition, Intro, Jim Woolfrey, Joanne P McCallie
Intro 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast. To me, being perfect. is not about that scoreboard after this is a chance. You can understand the dressing, you can work towards a common goal. We are all on the same team. Now you will do it to the best your ability to focus on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again. Your defenses got to be better. We've known great moments are born. Great opportunity.
Paul Barnett 00:35
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's Podcast, where we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. Our great coach on this episode is Joanne P. McCall he or she is called by her athletes coach P. Joanne played big 10 collegiate basketball at Northwestern University from 1984 to 1987. In 1990, she transitioned into coaching as an assistant at Auburn University. In 1993, she became head women's team coach at the University of Maine. During her tenure, the team made six straight NCAA Tournament appearances, and won nine conference championships. In 2001, she became head women's team coach at Michigan State University and led them to five straight NCAA Tournament appearances. Then in 2007, she was appointed head women's coach at Duke University, Joanne became the first division one head coach to win a conference title in four different conferences, and also the First Division One coach to be named Coach of the Year in four different conferences. When we open this podcast, we always say that we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. But Joanne is a coach who also helps you live your life better. She radiates positive energy. And in this conversation, she connects the leadership behaviors required to be a great coach, and a force for good when you're away from the team. There are many parts of this conversation that resonated with me, but the highlights were as a coach, if you're not evolving, then you're not getting better. And then you're not doing the very thing you're asking your athletes to do. If you're a great team, you don't look at the scoreboard as it's irrelevant until the game is over. You focus on the technical skills and intensity that you put in and keep trying to improve it. her thoughts on choice versus chance and the habits you need to develop to improve your decision making in life. And Joanne shares some great stories to illustrate this. And the expectation that suffering is part of life. And you should view as a means through which you can grow and build resilience. It was a privilege to spend time with Joanne for this interview. And I hope it connects with you in the same way it did with Jim and I,
Transition 02:53
the great coaches podcast.
Paul Barnett 02:56
Joanne McCauley, otherwise known as coach p, welcome to the great coaches podcast. Thank you so much. It's great to be with you. We are very thankful for getting a little bit of your time today. But maybe just a really simple question to begin with. Can you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far?
Joanne P McCallie 03:14
Well, I have been, you know, I'm in Durham, North Carolina, of course, a great place. And I have been doing a great deal of writing for my second book. And that book is called secret warrior. And in stepping away from Duke and having 28 years of coaching head coaching experience. There are quite a bit of stories, you know, from Maine, to Michigan State to do. And this is sort of an all encompassing worldwide book relative to its interest value, dealing with mental health, dealing with stories. And I think it's fairly unique. But we'll see and it comes out February, February 16.
Paul Barnett 03:53
I am very much looking forward to talking to you about mental health and the four universities you've coached and how that's helped evolve your philosophy in the way that you coach and deal with people. So we'll get into that today. Yeah, great. But can I ask you probably just step back a little bit. Firstly, because you've had some first hand experience of some legendary coaches. Yes, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try to pronounce coach K's last name. Yes, that's the one.
Joanne P McCallie 04:23
Try to try to spell it and you're really going to be special.
Paul Barnett 04:27
I know. And I have a lot of Polish friends as well. I should be should be much better than that. I Coach K. There's Joseph CMP. And there's also k Yeah, and this is just a couple that I was able to
Joanne P McCallie 04:38
Yeah, I mean, God, okay. It's Joe champey k Yao. Tom is Oh, and I've had a wonderful exposure to Nick Saban. spending a day with him down in Tuscaloosa. So I do feel you know, and, and working directly with Tara vanderveer out of Stanford when she was we were doing USA Basketball. All together. So I've had quite a wide ranging exposure.
Paul Barnett 05:04
So the question is, what is it you think these great coaches do differently?
Joanne P McCallie 05:10
Well, they all have different personalities. They're[PB1] all very comfortable in their skin, in terms of how they deliver information and how they communicate. Obviously, there's a high level of technical understanding of the game. There's different ways to motivate Some are more calm, direct about things.[PB2] TOM IZZO comes to mind as somebody who's very aggressive and holds his head in dismay on the sideline. I worry about him because sometimes I think he's going to get an aneurysm like I just heard, he goes so aggressively at his team and has that referent power. I think it's important to know that each coach has referent power relative to their delivery. And so some coaches can be you know, Coach Kay can be really tough. He can be very cerebral. I haven't seen Tara as tough. I mean, she gets mad. But she is very she articulates well and is very much comes from the mind a little bit. Kay, yeah, definitely coming from a calm space, allowing her faith to really drive her in her delivery. Joe champey came from West Point, like Coach K, he was the women's coach when Coach K was the head coach. And so Joe, I think took a lot of lessons from Mike. Again, great knowledge of the game. But you know, not afraid to let it rip, if needed at certain times, but always respectful of players, you know, just great coaches, it allowed to be free. Their coaching records were so strong, that you know, they're in a place of probably I won't call them Untouchables. But definitely, in a space of being able to coach and really communicate their ideals and their philosophy.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 07:02
You've actually reached a stage in your career where you're now developing other coaches that are well on their way to being classified, I think is great. The two that come to mind are Katie Abraham Henderson, abrahamsson Henderson and Felicia Leggett jack.
Joanne P McCallie 07:19
Yes.
Paul Barnett 07:20
When you talk to people about becoming a coach, what's the top pieces of advice you'd give them?
Joanne P McCallie 07:25
Well, it's changed a lot as a profession, as you know, there's much higher salaries. And there's much more to draw people. Again, when you look at some of the pioneering codes that we talked about, and myself included, we entered the sport, making very little money. I mean, we entered the sport based on passion. I know, for example, my first salary was very, I mean, $40,000, for division, one head coach, you know, making 24,000 as an assistant, that the numbers were way down, and people will say, well, that's back in the time, you know, back in those economic days, but we all started from a very low base and never entering the profession, due to money due to the fact that it's now much more profitable to be a coach. And I think we have to be careful about that. Because you know, your motivations, I have to I have to be authentic, you know, you have to love to coach, I love to coach, I could go coach a team for no money right now and just have a great time putting a team together. So there has to be that initial love and passion.[PB4] And I think that's critical. And then of course mentoring having a coaching tree. I've got some wonderful former players that are now assistance Kristen Haney at Michigan State Lindsey Bowen. I could name more Courtney Davidson in Hartford. So you really take great pride in building a coaching tree and Katie and Felicia, were with me at Michigan State. And that was when we recruited some amazing players, Alicia Dimmick and Victoria Lucas Perry rini Haynes, and they were the ones that drove us to the national championship in 2005. So even though they weren't there for that, because they went on to become head coaches, we're all connected by experiences. And it's a great life and I've enjoyed it thoroughly, but I've been doing it since I was 26 years old. And so now at 55, I have a chance to sort of go into another career path, which is coaching, but not coaching just one team, coaching people and coaching mental health and reducing stigmas and, and being out there as a consultant for people that struggle of all you know, all people, student athletes, or whoever, so I am going into a broader world, and it might not be such a Limelight world, you know, in the spotlight or it's more behind the scenes I think. I think it will be
Paul Barnett 09:55
You said you're writing a book, your new one that comes out in February next year, The Secret Warriors Have you written the last page yet?
Joanne P McCallie 10:02
Um, yes, I've it's gone to the editor. Yeah, it's been kind of attacked by the, no, they get after it. Now my first book was choice not chance, you know, rules for a fierce competitor. So that's on Amazon, we did not publish that. I mean, we did not promote that terrifically well, because it was sort of self published with a little bit of help. And what I learned in this business is that you have to be with a publisher and actually get paid in advance to consider yourself an author. And so I'm actually an author on this. And so I'm actually an author on this second book. And the last it was right now, the last chapter, kind of just summarizes a lot of things. But it talks about stepping away from Duke. And that decision to do so and what that was all about. I don't know if that stepping away chapter is going to stay in the last chapter. Because they may move it all around. But right now, that's where it's at. Of course, I'm working on endorsements, and getting people to come on board. And that's been a lot of fun. Again, going back to people like Coach K and others, it's been great to reach out and receive some good support.
Paul Barnett 11:14
We also have a long relationship with the people at NIH, as well.
Joanne P McCallie 11:19
Oh, gosh, yes, I I adore the people at Nike, I adore them. 27 of my 28 years has been with them directly. I've enjoyed doing clinics, lots of clinics, I've done clinics for female coaches, I've done clinics for male coaches, and of course, will end mixed a lot male and female. And I've also had the great pleasure. One lecture sticks out in my head where I was. First it was Roy Williams. And then it was me in the middle sandwiched in the middle. And it was Jim Bay, Haim. And that was just great to be with them. And great to be coaching these men in explaining defensive philosophies and multiple defensive strategies. And so I have some great memories of being flexible enough to you know, be with some of the big guys, you know. And yeah, and Jim Boeheim was funny because he was like, okay, you just learned the matchup defense and all its complications from Coach t. Now, I'm going to get in here and talk about a two, three. And it's nothing like the matchup, but it's a lot easier. So if you want to do that pay attention to me, it was really, it was really funny.
Paul Barnett 12:35
You've really built your career over a long period, each step has been higher and deeper and bigger and stronger. And it results in you being the first division one coach to winning four different conferences.
Joanne P McCallie 12:49
Yeah, that was Yeah,
Paul Barnett 12:50
but what what I found interesting is when you were talking about it, you said the success didn't come from applying the same principles each time you moved. So I was really, really curious to ask you from that first one, until the fourth, how did your philosophy evolve?
Joanne P McCallie 13:06
Well, I mean, you just if you're not evolving, then you're not getting better. And then you're not doing the very thing you ask your student athletes to do. So you've got to be consistent. One thing about coaching, it's very authentic. And kids have a way of seeing through when things are not authentic, or driven by a different motivation[PB5] . So I guess I mean, when you look at my philosophies grew a great deal at Michigan State, meaning understanding the psychology behind the process of coaching. When I was at Maine, I was definitely outcome driven, and trying to prove myself as a young coach, we went to six straight NCAA Tournaments with the highest point of beating Stanford in the NCAA Tournament. Main is a mid major, smaller school. And I you know, from there, it was pure British Italian, driving the train. You know, I was a really tough coach at that time. I mean, just really tough. And the women at the time were so driven as well. And so I didn't have any problem with being a very tough coach. And there's some great stories about those women in the book. But then I arrived at Michigan State, very fortunate to be recruited, you know, they actually came and watched me coach, which was really fun to think about it. So they came to watch me coach and, and I told them, I couldn't possibly deal with them, unless I was on my day off because they started to creep into my life when you know, late season NCAA tournament and things with Maine and, you know, you've got to stay true to your team. So they were kind of aggressive. And I said, Look, I just, I can't talk with you. And then they said, Well, you do have a day off. And I said, Yes, I do once every, you know, once a week, and so once a week they called me religiously. And I talked to the governor at the time governor Engler, I'm Tom so called, various people would call in these phone calls. So anyway, getting to Michigan State, I was introduced to it, Tom Izzo, of course, in watching his practices. And that just gave me a whole flavor of new drills, way to develop my drills my offense defense further, you know, you just have to learn from a Tom Izzo and, and so I did. And then I also had a sports psychiatrist, which I consider best in the world. I know that sounds funny. But he works with all the football teams, Alabama, Texas a&m LSU, he consulted with the Philadelphia Eagles. And Dr. Rosen was a person who taught me a lot about words and reframing the way t individuals and players think cognitively, you know, there are words you can use, for example, when you're talking to a player, and they're perhaps not feeling as good as they should about their talents. You know, you can say you're very good, or you're a great player, but it's, it's much better to talk to a player about how dangerous they are, you know, dangerous with their skill set, you know, you you're dangerous by being on the floor, and always being an issue for the opponent. You know, there's other philosophies like a Christmas tree, you know, you know, the blinking lights on a Christmas tree. And there's always one that's very bothersome, that always seems to blink no matter what, well, you don't want to be that blinking light of your team, you know, you don't want to be the one that causes all the attention, or constantly is giving effort or not giving effort, and sort of blinking with your commitment. And so you get these sort of storytelling words. I can go on and on about these things. Like, you know, the score is what the, you know, no scoreboard mentality, okay? That's the idea that if you're a great team, you don't ever look at the scoreboard, you know, you could be up 20 points, okay, that's great. But it's irrelevant, unless the game is over. And so, however, you got to 20 points up, you know, must be continued. And you must change accordingly, to keep the intensity and the technical skills moving forward.[PB6] And so you talk to your team about a no scoreboard mentality and a complete focus on our team. You get ready for opponents through scouting reports and all of that, but, but it's really important to understand these principles. And what they do is they lock in around your team. And it leads to a philosophy that it's well, it's communicated, you know, it you communicate in a certain way, and there's a certain clarity. Now greatsword, psychiatrists will meet with people one on one as well, they don't generally meet with a team, it's sort of like that sort of, I'm intruding in a way mentally, that most times you don't want to, you want individuals to sit down. And there are things that I as a coach can learn, nothing confidential, but what I can learn is if I have a player, and that player's name is Sarah, and Sarah talks to a sports psychiatrist about how she motivates, and what her issues are, because you're sports, like Chi address, you're a doctor so that that's all confidential HIPAA information, as we call it in the States, and so that I can be told, takes, you know, with Sarah, cat, you're doing things right. And when you catch you're doing things right, you know, obviously be very verbal about that, when you're correcting her be very, sort of secondary and off the court when you do it. And you might say, well, lots of lots of players like that, you know, they want to do that. But it's not really true if you have an Alpha Dog, an alpha leader, vocal, aggressive, alphas like to kind of take it and and alphas often like to take it in front of the team, because they prefer to be a leader and held accountable so that it can be seen their toughness, and their response. And so identifying alpha dogs, identifying characters and personalities is all part of it. So I got exposed to some really high level thinking, and there's no doubt it was part of our national championship run. And it's no doubt that it became part of my coaching philosophy lead all the way through Michigan State all the way through Duke. And again, it's not every player you know, it's Some players need more than others. And the kids know that I know this, you know, Dr. Rosen that they know I talked to him. But he also tells me when I'm off base, you know, where I'm thinking, just come, you know, the wrong thoughts about something, maybe an opponent, you know, the trap games that can occur, you know, a game you're supposed to win is a dangerous game. Because it's dangerous, because it could be taken for granted. And so, you know, coming off a great victory, oh, a super win. And then having a game 48 hours following you know, you definitely can have a dip, unless you're talking about putting together maybe 80 minutes or 280 minutes of a weekend or 40 minutes of a game, and trying to go to four to, you know, with a focus on each philosophy that applies to each team, each kind of strategy. Anyway, I feel really fortunate because I was the only female with this mentor, Dr. Rosen to win a national title with him. I sorry, play for wish I was. That was that was a slip, yeah. To play for a national title. And otherwise, I worked with the guys so to speak, you know, Jimbo Fisher at Texas a&m. You know, Nick Saban, of course, he consults for all student athletes at Michigan State. So this kind of presents his story. And then, of course, when I got to do, the cerebral nature of Coach K, creeps in, relative to, you know, the next play, you know, the fist, you know, and how we, you know, the elements that all he's promoted in his in his books. And when I was a younger coach, at mean, backing up, I read all of coach K's books at that time. And it was one of the reasons I got the job at Duke, because when I met with Coach Kay, you know, I was talking about his philosophy, what I had learned and his books. So I've had some interesting mentors, and interesting ways to think about the game. And now I hope to kind of coach people across the board using using sport.
Paul Barnett 22:25
Well, it's definitely can definitely he elements of everything you're saying that are applicable to people everywhere, in corporate life, in personal life, leading community teams, etc. But when I was researching you, and preparing for today, I really enjoyed reading about choice, not chance as a philosophy. But there was a part of it that really resonated with me personally. And that was the whole idea of going against the grain. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit of that, that and how it applies to you as a coach and how you've used it with your, with your athletes?
Joanne P McCallie 22:57
Well, you know, again, you know, choice, not chance, determines your destiny choose to become a champion in life. That's the whole quote. And I've used that since main days. And that came from reading and putting things together. And I think it's very important that your choices are, it's the little choices that lead to the big ones. And it's a little choices that are actually more important on how you carry yourself. So we talked a lot about that. I also used it in camp with young people, you know, and I joke with you young people, you know, did you make your bed today? And how did you feel when you make your bed? Or how do you feel when your room is completely clean? And you're organized? You know, you know, how does that it goes back to the clean closet, you know, after you've you know, kind of cleaned out a closet, sort of the euphoria you feel with sort of getting organized. So making choices comes as small as making your bed daily to the biggest, you know, big choices of where to go to college and whatnot. Again, in my coaching, I look for players that make the right choices. And I do favor the people that work the hardest, you know, they always talk about, oh, I don't favor anybody. You know, the truth of the matter is you love each member of your team, the same. You know, if you're on a boat, and the ship is going down, and you're trying to save people, I mean, obviously, you would save anyone you could see under any circumstances, so you love them all. But you have to be clear that I witness their choices. I see whether they stay in the gym longer. I see their grades, you know, choices that they make and study in classroom, and that I try to put this all together in evaluating their choices. If they go out and they you know, they party or they take, you know, they just do things that are not conducive to the team. There's another quote that I love, which is what you do, you do to the team. And so what your choices are You know, you affect the team, you're not in a vacuum, by yourself and the other pieces to in in the world where we can all be victims. When you go to choice and not chance, chance indicates that I really can't control things. I was born into this situation or, you know, I don't have the love for my parents or, you know, I can be a victim of situation. And that is a terrible thing to think about. If you're a young person that you're kind of trapped. Choice indicates that you're not. And that you can make even the smallest choices, that would make a difference in your life. So it's an empowerment philosophy. And it can be used simply know, with the campers, or it can be used more at a higher level with student athletes or again, with corporations and teaching and whatnot[PB7] . And so I enjoyed that first book, I wrote that and had a little bit of help with Rob reins at that time. Again, Secret Wars different. I wrote the whole thing, and it's not, you know, that's all my writing plus the editor. I mean, you've got to have editors, and you know, but it was much more really coming from me directly.
Paul Barnett 26:18
Your high school coach?
Joanne P McCallie 26:20
Yes,
Paul Barnett 26:20
Fred Cova, he was the first person to suggest to you, you should think about coaching one day, what do you think he saw in you, guys, your background on what,
Joanne P McCallie 26:29
wow, you're, you're studying to get ready for this interview is absolutely fascinating. It might be the best I've ever experienced. So I have to say that. Yeah, Fred curver, a fabulous coach and person, a mentor to me today. He did he call me JoJo, you know, one of my nicknames, quietly is Joe Joe. And so he would say, Joe, Joe, I think you'd be a fascinating coach, or very good coach, or, you know, and I just looked at him, like, you've got to be kidding. I'm a player, you know, and I could only see myself in the player perspective. And it's interesting that he was correct. I kind of got into coaching by accident. It wasn't something I pursued, I went through political science. Well, first, I went to Radio TV film, at Northwestern. And then I went through political science going to be this. I don't know this great lawyer, Attorney, barrister, I guess, as some people say, right over over the pond. But I, you know, worked in a law firm, and that didn't work out. So anyway, long story short, I am a coach by accident, because then I got my MBA, and I was going to go into the corporate world, because I had worked in the corporate world for one year after Northwestern. So all these crazy details, you know, put me in a place where originally I was looking for a graduate assistantship, or my MBA would be paid for. So I'm a product of incredible gender equity and support in our country. So I had four years of Northwestern in a scholarship. And then I had two years at Amr working with Joe champion, my first two, I was a graduate assistant. So to think that basketball could lead me to six years, I mean, there's enormous amount of money and provide you that opportunity. Obviously, you never leave the ball, you know, you never leave the concept of the basketball. And oftentimes, you'll get a team together, and you'll have them hold the ball, and tell how they got there, and what it means to them, and then pass the ball to their teammate, who then holds it, because that's a commonality we have. And in our society today, it's all about how we're different. And and coaches can't stand that. And you can't have an effective team. When you're pointing out everybody's differences. You know, you got to celebrate them. And then you've got to what's the common bond, and then we pass that ball around. And we see it's all about that. So we look for similarities, we look for coaches, or coaches or generally a political, you know, I don't talk politics, because that's, that gets kind of yucky. But I will say we're apolitical. And we're very, usually pretty independent, you know, thinking, because we're independent thinkers, with our teams as well[PB8] . Your father,
Paul Barnett 29:23
if I've done my research correctly, father was a Navy pilot, and you moved around a bit as a child. And I imagine this must have helped build resilience. And you know, we started this interview with you talking about your passion for helping in mental health. And I want to ask you about the other charities you're involved with in a minute. But I'd like to just drill in and talk about resilience because I think it is the most important skill right now to teach, to teach young people and older people and perhaps everybody, but you strike me as someone who is very good at teaching resilience, and I'm just wondering if you could talk talks about how you've helped athletes develop a sense of resilience of coming back again, of keep showing up and moving forward.
Joanne P McCallie 30:07
You know, first of all, there's a, there's a presumption here, that life is some this joyous thing and all the pictures that people put on Facebook, like everybody's happy all the time. The reality is, the principle is that suffering, suffering is part of the deal. And by suffering, you are able to get to the core of what what the difficulties are, and you feel like feeling pain is a part of life, it is not something you can remove. Life is full of ups and downs, good times, I mean, sometimes it's good times, and then immediately following. It's bad. I mean, it's just things you can't believe you're up, you're down, you're thinking about life. But if you have a measure of faith in the process, if you're a person of faith in general, if you're a person that spiritual or thinks about things, and knows that if you do your very best, good things will happen. But you will suffer, things will go wrong, you will get injured, perhaps you will get in situations where you have a hard time communicating, you will lose games, you will win games, you will be on the bench, you will be a starter, you know you, there's so many roles that you can play. And so I like books that talk about getting comfortable with suffering. And I've had an enormous amount of suffering, that I think is developed me in a very strong way. And character comes from that. So we do talk a lot about embracing suffering, and you know, it kind of, you know, kind of joke about it sometimes like, okay, by this, we are going to suffer, you know, through this conditioning, and you can look at it two ways you can let that suffering take you down and feel, you know, feel weaker because of that, or you can rise. And you can get past any suffering, despite how you feel when you run around the track or something. I mean, you can make it. So it's light, but palpable, or, you know, definitely motivational. And so we're comfortable with suffering.[PB9] I told our team, for example, this year, we had a weird schedule. And we had some difficult games, probably in wrong places, relative to our situation. And then we had people hurt at that time. So we got into a situation where we lost games. And we generally don't lose a lot of games at Duke. And we lost more than normal in a period of time in December. Well, I told them, I said, You know, I hate to break it to you, but I'm not crying. I'm not crying about this. This is not something to cry about. This is a suffering that's going to lead us to incredible things. And of course, at that moment, they probably thought, I don't think so. But I also told them, revel relevancy is earned, you know, you don't become relevant, because you sign on to some great corporation or you wear Duke, on the front of your shirt, you become relevant by action and by each team. And so somehow in there, the team figured out that we had to make ourselves relevant. And it was coming from great suffering. I mean, people questioning us and of course, the coaches always get attacked, you know, you got to win basically every game, or else right. I mean, that's part of something we sign on to. Well, we we had the greatest comeback in ACC history by being down at 10th place for a moment, which was, well, very uncomfortable, and definitely suffering to go all the way to finish third in the league, behind to wonder in Louisville, in NC State, who was having a marvelous year and won the conference tournament. So, you know, again, loving that process. Now, I have to tell you some Duke fans, just because we didn't win 28 games, I mean, don't even wouldn't even recognize that. And that's a small percentage, and those are the people that want to really get at yet regardless. But, you know, a lot of Duke fans understood the process. And we're like, wow, I mean, they really turned it around. And it was sad that the NCAA tournament was canceled for everybody. And for us, we were the hottest team in the country at the time. And so kind of, well, you know, it's the never know, and there are many, many people obviously besides us that never will know what would have happened with it that season last year.
Paul Barnett 34:57
Whilst that's the one that got away, there are plenty of Other victories that I'm sure you should be very proud about. But if I can talk about service for a minute, because it's a it's actually a big thing in your life, you are a passionate supporter of community service, Big Brothers Big Sisters, which I think is a great organization. You're involved with others that serve as homeless families, all simas. And of course, given your experience with cancer, you you're also supporting cancer sufferers as well. So it's a big theme in your life. And I'm wondering if you could just share a story of how you've been helped as a coach by others. Oh, God, when it's been returned to you as a fader, when times have been difficult?
Joanne P McCallie 35:42
Well, I think, um, you know, giving giving away or giving time is an incredibly important thing. Recruiting one special student athlete was very interesting. And that's faith, Suggs, faith, as I recruited her, I learned the story of her mother passing from melanoma, when they was just 12 years old, 13 years old, in that range of being a young person growing up. And that put enormous perspective in my dealings with melanoma. Obviously, we had a common issue. But I was one of the people that, you know, I was able to be detected early, you know, I was an early detection person, and grateful for that. And then I couldn't believe how things might have been different. For Susan, phase mother, in terms of if she had been exposed to what I had been exposed to. One of the reasons I respect Duke so much is the medical the Duke hospital, and the medical care and the urgency and immediacy they bring to situations. So my malignant melanoma, I've only had one and the rest of my, you know, cuts or surgeries, whatever you want to call them have been proactive, and getting after early melanin, malignant cells. So when you speak about getting back, that whole story, you know, we ran a story on faith. There's some beautiful video in her story. Her father played in the NFL, Shaffer, Suggs, she has a wonderful brother, Devin. So she was sort of challenged with raising her brother, and her father and kind of being obviously that female person in their life. And so learning her story, and then having her able to tell her story, when she got older, she got to the point where she wanted to talk about it, tell it, share it and allow people to learn from it. Well, that connection that we shared, obviously, that's, you know, that's what it's all about and sharing, suffering. I mean, there's nothing I can say about melanoma, that isn't suffering. I mean, the way you I, I got cut up twice, surgery twice in my forehead. I mean, I look like Frankenstein. And I can remember coach Kay, looking at me when I came to the office and came to work saying, Wow, what happened to the other guy, you know, you know, using sense of humor in a very difficult situation. So there's just a lot of ways that if you communicate, it comes full circle. And so what I received back from faith is something I can't, I mean, she works with me now interesting. She's one of the warriors in the book. And I don't mind sharing a little bit of that. And faith is a person that's working with me now, to promote the book. And we want this book to go worldwide. You know, I want COVID is going to go away, we're gonna solve that. And I want to fly over there. Meet you all in person, talk to a huge group. take questions. It would be, you know, all the places I've been in Europe and, and spending a lot of time in England. The World Wide approach is the way to go. And that's why this podcast is so incredible. That's why it's, it might be no looking at coaches are very talented coaches. But this is a talented podcast.
Paul Barnett 39:12
Well, I appreciate you saying that. But I think the reality is that we all need more coaches in our life. Because when I speak to people like yourself, what comes through is a sense of selflessness, and also a sense of stoicism, whether you call it resilience or whatever it is, like just being able to keep going when things get tough. And I think we need a little bit more of that these days. I think there's a there's a place for that. And we always as we were talking about before we started there's always a time for the star performer, the tick tock dancer, the person who is that but there's not always the space for the people behind the scenes that are coalescing the group and bringing them together. So I appreciate you saying that very much. But you also talked about mental health at the start. And it's a big issue. I think it's I think it's always been a big issue. But it's because we're talking about it a lot more. We're definitely becoming more aware about it in all elements of society, you've been quite open about your experiences with it, and also wanting to help others deal with it. In fact, you know, you talked about helping coaches and get better at recommending the signals within their student athletes. I'd be really interested to hear from you around. What are some of the simple things, you know, we should be looking for when we're when we're coaching teams, what should we What are these red signals that that we should be keeping an eye on?
Joanne P McCallie 40:36
I think that comfortability is important, and it's not so much talking about it, it's a very individual thing. I mean, it's not something I talked to the team about their physical and mental health, their mind body, and how they have one body and one mind. And that's all they have can't trade it in. So I'm clear about the care of mind and body. The next step is the one on one conversations, and just getting to know the student athletes off the court, and allowing them a safe space to share information if they want to. Okay, so you're not trying to dig that that would make people uncomfortable. You're trying to share, you know, boy, I went through a tough time when I didn't believe in myself as a player, back at Northwestern, I struggled when I was a freshman, or sophomore. So it's sharing your experiences, and then allowing them a safe space. And then sometimes I've been directly involved with I've witnessed a player just be so damaging to herself, that I had to ask the question and say, we need to look at this person in a whole a holistic way. And I believe they need some care, psychiatric or psychologist and, and some some schools in our country are really ahead of the game, you know, they may have a sport psychiatry is right in their athletic department, or psychologist, and there is a difference, big difference between the two, as the sport psychiatrists can bring medicine into the equation if that's necessary. So I've had student athletes go through a process and find that they did have anxiety issues. medicine was prescribed, and then they didn't want to take their medicine because their student athlete, and they don't want to bring foreign substances into their body, nor do they want to be considered weak, you know, for and that's a real, that's a real issue, if people are actually diagnosed, now, sometimes is just cognitive restructuring of how people are viewing the world, you know, they're coming from a negative space. And it's able to turn in and say, well, you really could look at it this way. And kind of trying to change their thinking. Now, the great psychiatrists, psychologists do that study it, you know, become the experts. Well, I am not one of those things. I'm a coach. And so I've just really paid attention to the mental, excuse me, the mental elements, and how that's part of the whole picture. And to be honest with you, pro tennis players, Olympians, they have a trainer, they have a sports psychiatrist, they have a coach, you know, they have everything surrounding them, so they can be successful. And you'd like that, for every student athlete, you'd like that for everybody in the world. I mean, you'd like people to be able to have that kind of support. And it would come in a variety of ways. For me, I'm a consultant, okay, I'm the person you can call up and discuss the coaching element of trouble that that someone is having. Like, if I found somebody that seemed they could harm themselves, or off in a way that I it wasn't for me, I would pass that person to a doctor. But that person might never get to a doctor, unless they have a liaison. something in between that says, Well, yeah, it's okay. It's what people do. And when you get through this difficult time, you will be better than you've ever been in your life. And I have found that to be true. I have seen that with my own eyes. And so mental health is part of it.[PB10] And that's why we started the mental wealth game at Duke. And you know, I've taken it from there and had speakers should make a holtzclaw openly diagnosed with schizophrenia, Tennessee, all American national champion. Her speaking was incredible. The way she you know, talked about things so The more stories about success, there's a lot of books written on how mental health is just really, I mean, pull people down in a way that was not recoverable. And there needs to be lots of writing about the positive stories, and the fight back spirit, because you have to fight back and you have to fight for a healthy mind.
Paul Barnett 45:24
So talking about fighting back, I want to jump into women, female coaches in athletics. This is another thing you've spoken about. It's a very important area, I this statistic that I often talk about and gets played back to me as well is that go back to the Rio Olympics, it was in 2016. And 11% of the accredited coaches were female. So we've got to get more women into coaching. My open ended question to you is, how can we do that?
Joanne P McCallie 45:56
Well, we have to continue with education, continue with opportunity. As you know, there's very few female athletic directors in our country. The pioneering spirit, whether it starts from Billie Jean King, you know, Donald obiano, there's been women that have been extraordinary dalo piano developed the woman Sports Foundation, you know, highlighting women in sport, I think that one thing we could do better is highlight more women in sport that aren't exactly all Americans, or Olympians, you know, just across the board, people, people that might be the fabulous administrators, you know, sometimes a great player does not make a great coach, you know, you know, if you look at a medium player, giving them seminars, you know, there are seminars with the Women's Basketball Coaches Association that are so you want to be a coach, right? So you want to be a coach, and they bring women, and there's a lot of discussion on how to be a coach, there needs to be a lot more than that. I mean, it's just that just a little bit. And there's very few of anything that says, you know, how do you become an administrator, think about it, if the women are athletic directors, you know, they are going to be more comfortable looking at the diversity of the pool. And us women think that we're kind of it, you know, in terms of intuitive and, you know, it's like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, right, she said, if there's any decision making a woman, or more have to be in the room. And so breaking down that whole structure, that it's just basically built by the fact that guys, you know, we're playing sports more earlier. And, you know, it's been a process and the equity pieces are critical. And keeping women in the game. I mean, when they're 14 and 15, a lot of women are dropping out. And they're dropping out a lot of women because they say, Well, I can't really be the best, I can't really be an all American, maybe I'm not being recruited by the school that I really want. Instead of thinking, Well, wait a minute, I can change the whole dynamic here, I can be the senior women's administrator at Duke, I can work my way up the line, I can become an athletic director, I can, you know, change, change so many things that way. So there's, there's got to be more diversity in what we teach. And the old girl network has to arrive in strength.[PB11] And also to we must have fun with the old boy network. Like you can't look at that as Oh, I just, you know, it can't be an opponent. I play golf. One of the reasons I play golf, is because I saw all these guys playing golf. And I thought, well, I got to get in on those conversations that take place on the golf course. And a lot of conversations take place on the golf course. So you have to put yourself in these positions where you have exposure, and one of my biggest donors and supporters at Maine, that that business dealings occurred on the golf course. And we were playing me and me and Walter, we're playing to other people. So we're bonding as teammates on the golf course. And you make that beautiful birdie putt, you know and celebrate that and something really breaks down you know about I don't know differences, and then excitement about women's basketball. Next thing I know is oil company is sponsoring a tournament, did river oil was putting money towards my program at Main. And so you look at Condoleezza Rice and she's was the only female board member I think at the Masters if I said that correctly. Well, my goodness Finally, and all of that will start to you know, work but remember kinda Lisa loves football. She, she loves college football, and she's also a concert pianist and incredible person. But again, she, I could just see her, you know, talking about all this, these kind of topic matters, that you can talk about gender to gender, and not just football, but anything, you know, it just working your way. And I felt that I've tried to do that through my career is trying to get involved with things. And so I play golf now,
Paul Barnett 50:25
there's a quote from you that I'd like to play back to, I don't know whether it's going to be in the front page of your new book, but it probably should be. It says, people ask me what coaching is an I think it's the business of developing people and empowering others. And I choose to do this through basketball. So I'd like to ask you, I don't know whether you're finished as a coach, you may come back and do it again. So let's use the future tense. When you do finish coaching, what's the legacy you want to have left behind?
Joanne P McCallie 50:57
The legacy is just impact. Being able to mentor change lives, you know, being able to change lives and women, I've spoken to a variety of issues. I know someone has spoken to me about orientation, and their own orientation, because they're in college. And college is when you discover yourself and make a lot of choices, and then having parental problems with acceptance. And so I think about those women, I'm talking with them and encouraging them to move forward, but also to be graceful in understanding other people's issues, and not to let that reflect on them. [PB12] I had a current conversation of a former player lately about that very issue, and being able to understand that healing of time for people, and you know, the limits that some people have and understanding. And so I get back to your question we are in, it's not a business, it really bothers me. I mean, I know there's lots of money involved. But if you get to the core of it, it's the business of developing people, and trying to move their minds, you know, move their minds so that when they graduate, they're at a bigger space and, and, and can think better. You know, you I think you should always think deeply and feel deeply. And I don't think you can do that unless you suffer[PB13] . And also, unless there's a mentor or a person that drives you to do that.
Paul Barnett 52:32
Joanne McCauley, it's been an absolute pleasure talking today and hearing a little bit more about your story. I look forward to the new book. But I look forward even more to seeing you in Prague one day and organizing that room full of people for you.
Joanne P McCallie 52:44
Oh, I would love that frog is such a special place only been there one time, but would love to come back and meet you personally and, and just talk with people. I think we're I think we're worldwide at this point. I think this virus has made it very clear that we're all humans, and we're all susceptible. And so we might as well stay worldwide completely after this challenge that we're going through.
Paul Barnett 53:12
Thank you for your time today, Joanne.
Joanne P McCallie 53:13
Okay, thank you take care of
Transition 53:16
the great coaches podcast.
Jim Woolfrey 53:19
Hi, everyone, its Jim here. You've been listening to our discussion with Coach P. Joanne P. McCauley. The key highlights for me were her thoughts on expectations and how they can be harnessed and used to help the team develop and individuals build resilience, coaching to move people's minds so that they're in a bigger space and can think and feel more deeply, and coaching female athletes who feel that they can't be good enough to make it to the starting team and may want to drop out to look beyond careers as athletes and develop in other areas related to the game. I hope you enjoyed it as much as Paul and I did. Coming up next on the great coaches podcast. We speak to author and golf coach, Steve Bann.
Steve Bann 54:00
So the great golf coaches, the great coaches of any sport have the ability to identify what their athlete needs right at that time so they can play it the client the best. So when you're coaching in a major course you're not working on the golf swing. Most times are working on shots and strategy and the other skills so they can play the best that way.
Jim Woolfrey 54:23
And just before we go, coaches are not usually the type of people who seek the spotlight. And so if you can put us in contact with a great coach that you know has a unique story to share. We would love to hear from you. You can contact us using the details in the show notes.