The Great Coaches Podcast Episode 023
Wed, 2/10 9:08AM • 44:58
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, leaders, players, people, culture, paul, melbourne, feedback, team, sydney, meditation, standards, afl, technical, ceo, years, game, started, relationships, created
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Transition
Paul Barnett 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast.
00:05
To me, being perfect
00:06
is not about that scoreboard after
00:08
this is a chance you can understand the person and you can then work towards a common goal. We
00:16
are all on the same team. Now you do it to the best your ability to
00:20
focus on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again,
00:25
has got to be better. We've known
00:28
great moments are born and great opportunity.
Paul Barnett 00:33
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's Podcast, where we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. Our great coach on this episode is Paul Roos. Paul is a former Australian rules football player and coach. Paul began his professional Playing career in 1982. Eventually retiring with 356 games, five best and fairest awards, seven Australian selections, and the 1986 Lee Matthews medal under his belt, he began coaching in 2002. With the Sydney Swans, it was here that he implemented his high performance dialog philosophy. And in 2005, he coached the team to their first Premiership in 72 years, Paul is a wonderful coach and leader who has managed to find a balance in life that also makes him a great role model. This conversation spans his experience coaching elite level football teams, doing his best as a father to be present for his family, at his latest work with organizations, helping them build the right behaviors, so that they don't leave culture to chance. The highlights of our discussion for me were his thoughts on what he calls real talk, and how this is the cornerstone of accountability and taking teams from good to great how you act your way into a culture. And so behaviors across the group are critical to make sure that new people enter and build on the culture in the right way. And the idea of starting meetings with a gratitude session to shout out to someone who has made a difference, however big or small. I hope you enjoy our interview as much as Jim and I did
Transition 02:15
the great coaches podcast.
Paul Barnett 02:18
So Good evening, Mr. Paul rose, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
02:24
Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
Paul Barnett 02:26
We're looking forward to chatting to you too, Paul, we, Jim and I love talking a little bit about Australian football. But could we just start with something really simple? Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to today?
02:38
You know, I'm in Hawaii. I'm currently living in Melbourne, but we sort of left Melbourne got out to my wife's American. So we were I would have visited dad was a bit crook. And we were able to get out of the country, which was great print, about a month here. And we're now in a wire house in a wire which we bought six years ago, which is nice. So we're able to get out there. So today I had a good day or playing a game of tennis, which was nice, and a little bit of a swim and did some work so good day productive. Well,
Paul Barnett 03:07
I won't start with how envious I am as I look outside and see the gray skies and the six degrees. Instead, let's talk about all things coaching. And I'd like to start by winding the clock back a little bit actually, because you've had exposure to some great coaches in Australian rules football people like Robert wall's David Parkin, and of course, perhaps one of the greatest of all time, Ron barassi. You've also experienced many others on your study tours across America and Europe, which you've written about extensively. So I'd like to start by asking you what is it you think the great coaches do differently?
03:40
Yeah, well, maybe to put in a concept context with the listeners, Australian rules football is pretty much a part time role when I first started so back in 1985, my first game in 1982. So the guys you mentioned, Rawls was a school teacher David Parkin was a lecturer I don't think he was Deacon at the time. Certainly brass was more fully professional when I went to Sydney. So I went to Sydney to play in 95. And that's when the professional sort of era started. So in answering the question, there's been a huge transition in AFL coaching, because you can imagine Robert walls as a school teacher all day, and we were coming down and training at five at night and training at 6am or 630. In the morning, there wasn't a lot of technical stuff that we could learn and there wasn't a lot of stuff around relationships and culture and all those sorts of things. So most of the culture was sort of taught by the players themselves, you know, just learn to train hard, or whatever the the role models or the leaders used to do. So from a coaching point of view, it probably evolved in the mid 90s peress was was really really good. Yeah, he's reputation allowed Alex Ferguson, I guess, from Manchester United said sort of similar concept. But as we move to the mid 90s, the late 90s, It then became full time so in answering the question, probably the great coaches, when I first started were really simple, really simple messages really drove high standards were really hard on the players. And it was sort of sink or swim. You know, that's just the way it was. As we moved into the fully professional night nature of football, It then became about, what are those standards? You know, how can we build a relationship with the players? What is the culture of our footy club? Yeah, then we start to become really technical.[PB1] And a lot of To be honest, a lot of the AFL folded soccer, that real keepings off mentality, yeah, chipping the ball around keeping up the opposition, which is very soccer, like building the ball from the back half, getting into the forward line, etc, etc. So it's a way more technical game now. So I think the coaches from now, I have a great technical expertise. But to be a great coach, now you have to build really high standards within your group. And on the back of those high standards have to build really strong relationships.[PB2] Paul, you've
Paul Barnett 05:58
said, it's easy to be mediocre. To become the best, you've got to have really good behaviors. And so I'd like to ask you, what behaviors are central to your coaching philosophy?
06:09
Yeah, look, I've said that after workouts, eight and a half years for Sydney, and then I went to Melbourne for three years, and also watching games over and over and over again, talking to other coaches. As you said, I did a study tour in America in 1999. And the difference is, it's very hard to be great. It's not easy. And you have to set the standards. And what why we did it at Sydney, and we started Melbourne was the players involved in those standards. What do you want to stand for? You know, what, what's your brand? What's the Sydney brand, what's the Melbourne brand and drive those standards relentlessly. And on the back of that you've got to be a really good technical game style that stacks up in final. So you have to be a really good technical team as well. And then you have to build really good relationships. And to get the players to really believe in what you're doing. You have to have to think you care about them and really understand that it's not the typical top down approach anymore. No coach yells at coach screams out yeah, it's no, we're in this together, we're building this together. And there's a lot of sacrifice that goes into being a great team.[PB3] I recognize that more than ever, when I watch the footy. Now having coached for so many years, and having seen teams that have been successful over a long period of time, probably the best way to sum it up is to me, there's two types of teams. There's a behavioral based team, and there's a talent base team. Now tell him by saying, Can we win that talent isn't going really, really well, but they're not going to win over time. Because all they are is based on talent. If they're telling plays, well, then they'll win. A behavioral based team is a team that understands these standards, lives and breathes them week in week out, one player gets injured, another play kit comes in plays their role, they might drop a bit when their talent drops, but they don't drop anywhere near as much as the other team, because they're really high on standards.[PB4] And as I said, over 30, sort of seven years of being involved in football, you know, I've never been more convinced. Richmond just won the grand final behavioral based team, the Giants miss the eight, talent based team, there's never been a greater example of two different organizations,
Paul Barnett 08:11
or just listening to you I I was thinking of something I'd read in preparation for today. And I think I think it was something you'd said where it used to be that you had to perform for the coach to care. But now you've got to care as a coach in order for the players to perform. Would you say that something that's happened in the last 10 years? 15 years? When is that transition occurred?
08:33
Yeah, I think again, probably in the late 90s, when coaches had way more time. I mean, it's very hard for Robert walls and David Parker to build relationships, when, as I said, you get down to trying to get maybe four, you're out on the training track at five, you're trying for three hours, you're jumping the kite, he's already jumping the shout and jump in a car and go home. And Beckett back then we had sort of 60 something players on the list. So it was just it was literally impossible for coaches to build relationships. Suddenly, mid 90s, late 90s players were full time, you know, they're coming in all day. So then you had the ability to connect with the players, you know, players coming pastor office walking into your office talking about how is the weekend? How's your wife? How's the kids? And yeah, so you had to be prepared to commit to relationship building. And the poor coaches don't do and the good coaches do a really, really well so the transition probably was around about the late 90s but there's still some coaches that don't do it really well. When did it when it became really trendy? In a sense? Probably around the Oh 30405 2000 Yeah, then Alice the clocks and you know, with with Hawthorne, and then the dynasty of jilong, with Bama Thompson and etc, etc. So more recently, sort of late 90s, early 2000s.
Paul Barnett 09:50
Paul, you now work with organizations, helping them identify their key behaviors and hardwire them into processes and culture in the organization. What have you found most surprising in your work with corporate teams?
10:04
Yeah, I think them the most surprising thing is how little time they spend on their culture. That's probably the difference in sport and in business. I think that's the thing that shocked me. Having finished coaching Melbourne sort of four years ago, and being involved with performance by design for the last four years, that's probably the biggest thing that shocked me how little companies put into their culture. And often they think by putting a sign up getting everyone in a building together, and everyone coming in from your nine to five or whatever, that we're going to build great relationships, we're gonna have a common set of standards and purpose and values and everything's going to be fine. That there's no doubt that's that's the thing that surprised me the most.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 10:44
I'm interested. Paul, from your perspective is an elite level coach. He's now worked in the private sector. I'm wondering if you could share an example from any sport is fine, where you've seen a lack of, I want to use the word values, but it could be a lack of culture that has led to them mismanaging the situation something that's really jumped out at you. Yeah, well,
11:08
maybe I'll just go through both footy clubs a little bit and sort of set them up a bit. When I took out the Sydney Swans, obviously, what are your listeners won't know who they are. But we hadn't won a Premiership at that stage for, I think, 69 years when I took over. But what I noticed we had a really good group of players we played in the grand fall in 1996. So So from a standards point of view, we were actually pretty good. We probably just didn't have a shade purpose or shared brand or whatever. So we quickly established that behind us to apply his credit. From day one I really picked up on it. We picked that leadership group and Shui Maxfield became the captain. And we played in the finals in 2003 2004, won the Premiership for the first time in 72 years in, in 2005. So it was relatively seamless once we put the system in place, when I got to Melbourne, really good players and good people, but no idea of how to play AFL football, and really no idea of what the leadership group was supposed to do. And the leadership group, those enlisting a leader is fundamentally first and foremost, a role model. You know, if you want to be a leader, you have to be a role model. You can't ask people to do things you're not prepared to do yourself. So I think the biggest thing that I noticed is our leadership group just really didn't know how to play and how to behave and act. So we had to spend a lot of time with our leaders, until we can get the leaders up to speed, I knew was going to be really difficult to turn the team around. But the lady's credit. They worked hard. They worked hard, they work hard. They were taught, but it's a it's a slow process. And then it comes back to choice. Do I sign up to it? Do I agree to the set of behaviors and values? And then as a leader? Do I hold myself accountable to them? First and foremost?[PB6] And that took a fair while at Melbourne? Where's Sydney? And really happened overnight, which was fantastic. And then can I challenge my teammates and reward my teammates? So is that is that a reasonable response to to the sort of question you're asking? I can I can certainly go into more specific detail if you like.
Paul Barnett 13:12
No, it is. I'm somewhat familiar with the Sydney example. And the values and culture being player LED. The Melbourne example is not something I'm as familiar with. But perhaps as a follow up question, the culture that was created in your Sydney to the Bloods culture that had specific values. I don't have them written in front of me now. But there was never anything to my mind. That was was there. Sorry. The question is, was there anything similar that came out of your time in Melbourne? Yeah, typically, there's
13:39
a number of things. But the thing that I loved about the system we created Sydney and Melbourne is it's a, it's a Player's Choice. Not from a technical point of view. So I want to make that really clear. So me as the coach or Yeah, Nike as a shoe brand. Yeah, the technical people put the shoes together. What we're talking about here is how we're going to act as a group of people within an organization. So there's the technical side, and there's the behavioral side. So we believe that we had a really good technical gameplan at Sydney and took that to Melbourne. And then the players themselves have to create what do we stand for? What are we going to reward? What are we going to challenge. So they are slightly different because it has to be from the heart, it has to be what the players themselves want to create.[PB7] Probably the greatest example of Melbourne is we were able to get to a really good stage in the game. For those who don't know, I was the senior coach for three years. And part of that was succession plan. You know, we took over a club that was two and 22 wins and 20 losses. I think it was the fifth worst season in NFL history. And through the process, a similar process we used at Sydney. Clearly we started a long way back. We won the Premiership Sydney and Melbourne we set ourselves up from A to win team to a 10 win team and just outside the finals, so it's really well set up. Yeah, the problem that Melbourne now have is they just let the standard slip you And when you let those standards slip, the tipping point, is really a fine line. You know, there's there's an enormous amount of talent there to build really strong relationships. But they don't want to hold each other accountable and have what we call in our business real talk, just have real conversation with each other. This is what's expected of you. Well done, you did really well, Ben, we don't do it like that. Don't do it again. So they're not prepared to have those really honest conversations and hold each other accountable. And that's that concept of Good to Great. It's easy to be a mediocre team as Melbourne at the moment, it's very difficult to be a great team, it's Richmond at the moment. There's a lot of sacrifices, a lot of discussion. Overall, you've got to hold each other accountable. And Melvin just not prepared to do that. And Richmond are
Paul Barnett 15:48
just talking about real talk for a minute, Paul, I want to tie it back to a comment I read, that I believe was attributed to you. And I hope it was attributed correctly. And it was changing culture takes time and practice, but also a safe environment. This idea of safe environments is somewhat controversial. You know, some people like it, some people think that's not the world. In your context, what is a safe environment where you have this real talk
16:15
in the safe environments created by the leaders? And I'll give you an example. You know, we if we start with a set of behaviors, and everyone agrees to them, it's a learned skill. It's not It's not as simple as then we start getting everyone and saying do this do that. The first part of it is clearly articulate what's acceptable. And then often we start in a subtle way, you know, we do a poll, well done. Fantastic. What you did yesterday, that was great. Everyone in the room says, okay, that's, that's interesting. Paul Roos is rewarding, Paul, for that behavior. Fantastic. So we start to have conversations. How do we create a safe place is a great, great question, Paul, we create a site twice as the leader on the first one to receive the real talk on the first one in the room, that I say to people, what am I doing really well? What can I do better, as the CEO, as senior coach as the captain of a footy club, that's creating a safe space, because if I'm prepared to accept the feedback, as the CEO, or as the coach, then everyone in the room should feel comfortable. And we do it right time, right place, right way. So there are some strategies around it. Because I've often heard of this notion of 360 degree anonymous feedback, which for me, is just complete garbage. I mean, if you're trying to set up a culture of transparency, and honesty, and trust and psychological safety, that's the worst thing you can possibly do is anonymous, 360 feedback, because let me tell you what the first thing happens is, oh, who said that about me? A bit. I'll bet you that was Paul. He doesn't like me, as opposed to in an open forum in a controlled environment. Paul says to me, Rosie, yeah, I love the way you're really enthusiastic. Can you please just not buy in as much in meetings? Yeah, we love your input by to be Apollo. thank thank you very much. I didn't realize that. I was doing that. Fantastic. We have a conversation. It's facilitated by someone in the room, as opposed to who said that it was up like I said that about me, buddy. That's not me. Oh, yeah, I reckon I know who it is. So 360 anonymous feedback. That's not creating a psychological safety in a safe environment. Leaders receiving feedback, right time, right place. Right, wait, that's creating a really safe environment for everyone to be honest and open and transparent about what's valued. And what's challenged.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 18:36
I think there's a there's layers of feedback and learning to accept feedback and give it is is a skill in itself, I think. But how about this challenge of you talking about this room, you're the senior coach, highly decorated? You know, you've coached premierships you've played in successful teams. And you got a first year, rookie sharing feedback that dynamics difficult, but how, what are the tips in managing that because that is a real scenario. You've got graduates in a in a large organization, they're very comfortable with social media, they're happy to throw questions up, they're happy to raise their hand they used to giving feedback, they have a higher sense of entitlement, and they're not afraid to speak. How do you handle that dynamic? Paul, what would be your advice there?
19:19
Again, every interaction the leader is involved in I say this all the time, the leaders are getting watched. So you're absolutely right, the young person, Paul Roos walks into an organization just finished college, 23 years of age starts working. Everything that the leader, the sales manager, the CEO, I'm watching that 23 year old is watching every single movement that lead and that's what I say, when I talk to leaders and we work with leaders, performance wise on every interaction is being watched. So you can take those interactions as a tremendous opportunity equally, you understand if you mess up in a in a meeting, board meeting, sales, meeting, review, etc, etc. That's 23 year old is watching it. And to your point, the younger generation are prepared to speak up. They want feedback, they want information, right? So So my point is in a broad sense without being specific in terms of exactly the company and the feedback and all that sort of stuff. Just be aware that every time that 23 year old, is watching every meeting that he's in, so what we're trying to create, it gets back to my original point, before when you asked about the biggest surprise, if we're not conscious of our culture, and we're not consciously working on a culture, then that 23 year old can pick up some incredibly bad habits. Through that process, people yelling in a meeting, people being rude to each other, people not turning up on time. And then all of a sudden, what is that young person doing? Everyone wants to act their way into a culture, or I want to feel valued. So I'm gonna count the end of the first week, or no one was on time. So I'm going to be late. Because I want to, I want to, I don't want to the first one here, because it looks cool. Everyone seems to yell at each other. So I better start yelling at each other. As opposed to, we start off first meeting, I'll work walk into as a 23 year old, everyone's on time, no one's on their phones. And meeting starts, we do a gratitude session, at the start of the meeting, we do a shout out, you know, who wants to give a shout out to someone in the room at some done something really well. And then we get into the technical side, right? He's watching on Gee, that's interesting. They're rewarded, is temporary. In the room, they've rewarded five people for speaking up at last week's meeting, they've rewarded for people for, you know, being really diligent and in delivering on their word and getting their work back. I just noticed that that one person, that they gave some constructive feedback, took it really well, and said, Look, thanks very much, it won't happen again, every interaction, you see what I'm saying, if[PB9] you're consciously working on your culture, then you will create a really good culture, that what we took a performance by design, is we take the chance out of culture, I don't leave the culture to chance, we take the chance out of culture. And that's how you get that 23 year old, really comfortable with receiving feedback, understand, he doesn't have to talk up and yell at every meeting. And just because he's a millennial, and he's on social media and all that stuff. Okay. He's respectful. He receives the feedback when he feels comfortable. He's asked, yeah, young ruzi. What do you think now? Yeah. Would you like to? You been here two weeks? Would you like to give Paul a sales message, a little bit of feedback, you know, what's he doing really, really well. So really important for what you said before, it's a learned skill. We just don't rush into launching into a whole lot of feedback until we know what we're giving the feedback on the parameters, how we're doing it. And the manner in which we're doing it. I talk about giving feedback from the heart, not from the head, if you give it from the heart, and you care about someone. All right, right time, right place right way.
Paul Barnett 22:56
Paul, one of the things that I read in preparation for today that really resonated with me was was your thoughts on the leader having to distance themselves from the players as being antiquated? many leaders struggle with finding that line between being close enough to the players, as an individual to show that you care, as you talked about in your opening, but also removed enough to make dispassionate decisions when when times are tough. What advice have you got for leaders on finding that line?
23:28
Yeah, look, it was funny, because when I finished playing the best thing that I ever did, and I think I've got to hear someone was write down 25 hadn't been 25 points. But the things I liked about our leaders and the things I didn't like about the leaders, and there was nothing in there when I wrote it down, that will lead us shouldn't be too close to these players. All of it was around constructive feedback, positive feedback, good communication skills, really clear, articulated a quarter on half on three quarter time, and I'm sitting there thinking, hang on, that's what on writing as a player, and that's what I want from my leader, then as a leader, that's what I want to give to my players. And we do this similar exercise now with with our exec teams and GMOs and things like that. And it's amazing, when we do it, the leaders that resonates with them, and never the ones that were the root of noxious, you know, people who didn't want to build relationships, it was always that person that really invested in someone really cared about someone. So look at it from a different perspective. Don't look at it from the latest perspective. All right, look at it from the followers perspective. What's the follow on polygon lines, right KPIs in terms of his technical end, some real clarity around how he's going to get there. Now, if you become and I have to say this all the time, I didn't seek to be friends with my pliers. But I didn't seek not to be.[PB10] And I read somewhere where a great test of a leader is how many weddings you get invited to have your staff. I thought that's a really, it is it's a really Really interesting way to look. And that's and that by no way, shape or form says that I'm not going to give hard feedback and I'm not going to be a strong leader. You know, I've had some, you know, really honest conversations with Julie Maxfield and Brett Kirk and, you know, the leaders of the Sydney Swans with Nathan Jones and jack Barney, jack Grimes, the leaders of the Melbourne footy club. It's just, it's just a balancing act. You know, it's head and heart, head and heart, head and heart, head and heart. And I always say this is exhausting being a good leader. If you think leadership is easy, you're in the wrong business, because it's not. It's very exhausting. It's very difficult if you want to do it properly. But a lot of leaders are lazy, and they take the easy way out, top down, I'll just tell everyone what to do. And that's just the wrong way to go about it.[PB11]
Paul Barnett 25:47
I want to talk about it being hard and tiring if I can, because I did read the 25 point coaching. I've got the word written down here Manifesto. I'm not sure you titled it Manifesto, but it was 25 points. And when I read it, in preparation for today, I thought my first reaction was through my corporate lens. And I thought it's a really good example of moving from understanding to action. But then, you know, I sort of thought about it for a couple of days. And I'll try to look at it from a different angle. And I thought it was about moving from empathy, which is understanding to compassion, which is acting on your empathy. And so it really I then engaged with the list quite differently. But this led me to this question around. Have you have you? Have you ever experienced compassion fatigue? And when he did, how did you deal with it?
26:35
I say this all the time, because people asked me a lot, you know, you're going to coach again, it's like having 44 kids, it's exhausting. You know, it's 40. For those who don't know, it's 44 players on the list, you effectively got 44. But when I say children, they're not like little children, but they'd like your kids. They're like, you got to care for each and every single one of those 44. You talk about the T Absolutely. And that's why you have assistant coaches. And that's why, you know, the difference between corporate and football is we really lean on each other. Yeah, we, if you want to call out coaches, assistant coaches, the executive team, we work really closely together, and we work as a team. And when the fatigue comes, that might be Yeah, look, Benny Matthews, can you go and talk to jack Varney made, I spoke to him yesterday, and we lean on each other, where it's not up to the to the coach or the CEO all the time to be the backside kicker, or the Well done, well done, well done. If you've got an executive team, use them. Don't just call them a team by by name, use them. So the fatigue is definitely offset by the group of people you've got around you. It's offset, because we put leadership groups together within the playing group[PB12] . So you've got a really good ally within Stewie maxvill with Nathan Jones with jack Varney. So you're not the one that's doing it all the time. But certainly very tiring. Because every single player, every single person in your organization, thinks they're the most important person in that organization. And they should, because they've got to get the best out of themselves. So for the gyms and the sales managers, and the CEOs, they're going to think like that, that those 510 100 people are really, really important. So it is exhausting. Use the resources, use the people around you. And when you are tired, take a break. One of the one of the best things I heard is your own health will determine the health of your business. Never truer word spoken at the moment in the in what the world has gathered. If you can't look after yourself, how on earth can you look out the staff, it's impossible. And I see too many leaders turn up tired, out of shape, not eating well, not exercising, not looking at their mindfulness in the you know, their yoga, their meditation, or breathing or whatever. And it becomes even more exhausting for them because they just can't cope with it.[PB13]
Paul Barnett 28:53
Pull your way well known for being calm, at least outwardly, particularly on the sideline, and your wife are big proponents of meditation. You've used it with your clients, you talk about it in all in many of your writings. What are the benefits you've seen athletes take from meditation yoga, and how have you seen it impact their performance? Could you talk about that for a little bit for us?
29:19
We continue the theme on the differences between elite sport and corporate world elite sport is a genuine high performing team. So when we started meditation in 2003, with the Sydney Swans it was it was really groundbreaking stuff. And we didn't force it on the players. And it's no coincidence that the best players were the ones that chose to do it with Tammy. Yeah, Adam Goodes and Craig Bolton and Jude Bolton and Brett Kirk, because they want to be successful. They want to be high performance. Yeah, the ability to remain calm under pressure, the ability to be present. The ability to visualize when you're going out before a game and seeing yourself doing really good things. We then Made it compulsory at Melbourne footy club and you can imagine how many scars they were, you know when it took over Melbourne six years of losing two wins the year before 20 losses. So we meditated for every mind training session in a second year we visualized before we went out in the field. And it made significant difference to the players their ability to forget mistakes, which leave it behind, be present in a game less stressful. And it just relates to every part of the performance every part of your life[PB14] . And Tami's a great proponent. She has a PhD dissertation on meditation and she can articulate more than I can the absolute physiological benefits of meditation, but really, really high performing people are present and meditate on a regular regular basis. And again, you know, I would encourage all CEOs, all leaders to take up a practice even five minutes a day. Tammy has a great website, Tammy rose, calm and provide some fantastic tutoring. But again, it's something that the corporate world sort of talks about. I talk about walking the walk, not talking to talk, and great footy clubs, you know, walk the walk, and they do everything really, really well. You mentioned yoga, you know, acupuncture, you know, Pilates when it first started, meditation, visualization, breathing, exercise, all those sorts of things they take extremely seriously.
Paul Barnett 31:24
I actually watched a video that Tammy put online recently with one of your players Adam Goodes an all time champion of the game and Australian of the Year very outspoken individual with a lot of positive things to say, watching it, I got the sense at the end, that the change it had made in Adam was that he was, you know, I often hear coaches say, standards of what you prepared to walk past. But I got the impression without understandings were conversations, he was willing to walk past. And all of a sudden, he said, I'm not going to walk past that conversation. So it almost led to it. He almost talked about transformational change. And I'm sure meditation wasn't the only part of that. But it was a big part of looking inward to find strength to go out with, would you would you say that's a fair assessment?
32:12
Yeah, absolutely. And I know the absolutely articulate it this way during talk with Tammy, but I know that I can recognize when he wasn't meditating, it was really interesting. And I come into my office, he played a couple of bad games, which didn't happen very often. And I'd say my hairline goes on. As you know, meditating is now not sort of thing. So I became a really obvious sign of his performance to your point. And I think he articulated in a slightly different way, with Tammy. And he also, I think it allowed him to understand himself more, you know, and Tammy talks about, I think, the average person is about 80,000 thoughts. And when we go go to sleep, that's not resting your brain when you're meditating, you're actually resting your brain, etc, etc. So, you know, you're giving your brain a rest. So he, he had his ability to understand himself through meditation. And then also through the connection with the leadership group, and how valuable he saw that and he really wanted to be a leader. And he wanted to be part of, you know, the Sidney's bonds of blood culture, you know, the family that we created, etc, etc. So yeah, you've I think you've articulated that really well as to what it meant to Adam, and how important it was to him.
Paul Barnett 33:30
So Paul, I'd like to go back to 2005. You win the Premiership that year, 72 years was the drought. But in the lead up to that you were criticized by the CEO of the league, a gentleman called Andrew Dimitrios, and he came out and said, your style of play will never win a Premiership, that strategy won't work. And yet it did. And so I'm wondering if you experienced any self doubt at that time? And if you did, what advice have you got for other leaders on dealing with self doubt? When the pressure spikes like that?
34:05
Yeah, look, you know, and as you said, For those that don't follow fail, which most listeners won't, I mean, he was the CEO of the AFL CIO. You know, it was a big call for him to say something like that. And the Sydney Swans are in really a non AFL town in New South Wales, which is more of a rugby league rugby union town. So it was it, I liken it to the CEO of Coca Cola, you know, saying, look, I wouldn't drink Coca Cola in New South Wales, I drink Pepsi. You know, it's just a bizarre thing to say, because we were the one and only team in New South Wales. And we were the brand we were the AFL brand. And for him to trash our brand and the AFL brand was was quite extraordinary. So is there self doubt? He probably yes. But I think the biggest thing for me and what I've learned over time, and why I think Anna was completely out of line is no you're wrong. And understand what you're good at. Andrew dimitra could not catch the Sydney Swans for to save himself. And I couldn't run the AFL CIO, what So would it be if it hadn't come from? Yeah, Ronda Rousey or David Parkin or someone like that, then it's a different conversation. But when it comes to someone that says the CEO of the AFL and is not a coach, I think that's the first thing. So I really understood that he had no idea how to coach an AFL footy team in the same way that I had no idea around. I also felt that we were just playing poorly, you know, it wasn't a game style. It was actually the fact that we were just at a forum at that particular time. And then you're leaning on your staff, your players. And and really, it probably galvanized us, because we were really strong in a game. For those of you who don't know the history, I took over in 2000. Midway through 2002, we went six out of our last 10 games, we would tip to finish bottom going into 2003, we played played the plenary final in 2003. We played the semi final in 2004. So we had two years of pretty good success before he said what he said. So it was was sort of a strange thing to say, but we knew we were just playing poorly. But you've got to lean on the people around you. I think what I would say for the CEOs listening and leaders listening, it can be lonely, reach out, don't feel like you have to have all the answers. Yeah. ask you to IC. Do you think I'm doing a good job? Do you think we need to change the product? Do you think our strategies, right? I don't think you need to have all the answers. I'd really good people around me and they were like, that would play better. I think staying calm in those moments as well and not reacting. You're not being reactive is really, really important. Yeah, there are a multitude of ways. But everyone feels under pressure. And everyone feels a little bit insecure at certain times.[PB15] So hopefully, there's some tools there. For those people listening that are perhaps under pressure right now, which a lot of people are around the world. Just remain calm. ask for advice. Ask for help. Who was the person that's criticizing you? is it relevant? Or is it just noise? Because what I've seen time and time again, is when the media or someone's made some noise in Australian rules football and the coach has changed. Invariably what happens? They get the SEC anyway. Alright, so be really strong on what you're doing. Okay. And you'll get through those those periods as long as you're not banging your head against the wall just for the sake of stopping. Yeah, that's when it just becomes stupidity. So really good awareness, really good people went around you, and the ability to, to really review really well. And everything, look out for itself.
Paul Barnett 37:36
Polling 2008, your ability to stay calm, find balance is in your role as a father, and your role as a coach was actually recognized and you were awarded the Australian father of the year. That must have been hugely gratifying. I actually, as a father, I kind of think, well, of course, there's other things that are more gratifying. But it's nice recognition that you're doing a good job that can often in a world where being a coach can often be quite selfless. What advice do you have? And you must get asked this a lot on finding balance, because you're so good at it. You're known for it. It's a skill that is hard to develop.
38:18
Yeah, look, I think the first notion, there's a number of strategies around it, which we'll learn over time. The first one is this notion of work life balance is garbage. We were going to stop talking about work life balance, it's life balance. It's not like, you go to work, and you've suddenly got no wife and no kids, and you come home and you've got no job. So if you can somehow integrate the two, because it's your life. That's what I learned. This is my life. My life is my wife, my two kids, coaching the Sydney Swans. That's my life. It's not work, life balance, then within your life, find balance.[PB16] Yeah, so I was lucky to work pretty close to the kids school. At lunchtime, I go down and watch their Carnival on a Thursday morning, I take into brekkie and then drop them off at school. So when it's life balance, it integrates so much easier, okay, saying no, it's really important as well, I think is certainly imagine as a senior coach of an AFL team, you're asked to do a lot of things. Okay, sign up. The third, I think the most important thing, don't wait for the fancy trip to Aspen or Paris or, you know, Africa. Just give of your time. And that's something I learned. And the probably the proudest thing I am is one my son My oldest son Dylan is in the men's health space as we talked before, gets off and asked about me, he says, I just remember dad making an effort. I remember dad we get on a midnight flight from Perth. I had the choice when I get on a midnight flight from Perth and come home and watch my boys play footy on the Sunday or I get some sleep and and arrive Sunday afternoon. It was an easy choice for me. I'm going to get on the plane. Get on I remember when he said that he's you know, so like, we just spent time with us. It wasn't our dad was great, because he took us here, here, here, here. And it was, it was really interesting to hear that. So what I would say to the dads, moms and dads and out there, just make time, and when you're with them be really present, or don't be on your phone, don't be on your computer. Once I go to bed, you can do that with some really automated, interactive world, be really, really present when you're with your kids.[PB17] And hopefully, there's two or three really valuable tips for people out there because it is one of the great struggles that we all we all face.
Paul Barnett 40:38
Or there's actually some speculation in the papers that your coaching career may not be over yet. I don't want to get into that and ask you, but what I would like to ask you is about legacy. And I've listened to some conversations where you've talked about it, but I'm not sure you've ever been directly asked. And so I would like to broach the subject and say, what's the legacy you believe you've left so far as a coach?
41:01
Yeah, it's a funny question that because it's legacies, probably what other people think of you. It's an interesting concept and something that you get asked a bit, but I always wrestle with that. I think the legacy that I'll have left is the player empowerment, that culture can be created. You know, you can't you don't have to leave it to chance. You can if you want to, but I think it's culture can be created. And sustained success can happen over a period of time[PB18] . Yeah, we Sydney with Hawthorne, with Richmond now. I think we were the pioneers. And we not meaning me and that's the other thing I firmly believe in. It's not my legacy. It's the legacy created with the people that I came in contact with. It relates to all the people I played with it Fitzroy and play with it Sydney, and we collectively created at Sydney together, all the Sydney people came with me to Melbourne and we started create something special at Melbourne as well. So I think it sees this notion of getting people involved making people feel valued in their workplace. And in our workplace. It happened to be a footy club, and I'm really proud of the relationships I've built with the players are really pleased and proud of the way they speak about their footy club. So that's probably when you think about the legacy.[PB19] It's somewhat changing the landscape of AFL football along with a lot of people that that help do it certainly, it was an idea that was in my head but it was created by a lot of people that I came in contact with over many, many years of being involved in footy and to Sydney's credit, I mean, what a great footy club and we started the same journey at Melbourne.
Paul Barnett 42:43
impellers empowered culture, relationships collectivity, what a great place to end. Thank you very much for your time, Paul. It's been a masterclass in in culture, creating it and sustaining it and wish you all the best for your future.
Transition 42:56
Yeah, Mike, thanks a lot. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed my time. Thank you very much. The great coaches podcast.
43:06
Hi, everyone, it's Jim here. You've been listening to our discussion with Paul Roos. The key highlights for me were great coaches, have technical expertise, and build really high standards and relationships within the team. One of the things he found most surprising and he's corporate work is just how little organizations put into developing culture, how your own health will influence the health of your organization. So take time to look after it and his thoughts on life balance, and how essential it is to find it for yourself. I hope you enjoyed it as much as Paul and I did. Coming up next on the great coaches podcast, we take a look inside the world of competitive cheerleading, with Chairperson of sport cheer, England, Joanna gamper carpet, growing not just in gyms around the country, but it's also becoming popular in schools and particularly in high schools in the UK, for engaging young women at the young girls at the age at which they traditionally are dropping out sports around that 1415 year age there is good data to suggest that girls are dropping out sports. And cheerleading is one of those kind of sports that is picking those girls back up again and retaining them within physical activity. And just before we go, coaches are not usually the type of people who seek the spotlight. And so if you can put us in contact with a great coach that you know, has a unique story to share. We would love to hear from you. You can contact us using the details in the show notes.
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