The Great Coaches Podcast Episode 025
Wed, 2/10 11:23AM • 49:33
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, athletes, cycling, people, philosophy, challenge, bit, sport, gold medal, hard, psychology, world, charlie, australia, cyclists, bike, successful, training, enhancing, race
SPEAKERS
Jim Woolfrey, Paul Barnett, Charlie Walsh
Paul Barnett 00:01
Welcome to the great coach's podcast.
00:05
To me, being perfect
00:06
is not about that scoreboard after
00:08
this is a chance you can understand the person and you can then work towards a common goal. We are all on the same team now you
00:20
focused on the fundamentals. We've gone over time and time again. great moments are born. Great opportunity.
Paul Barnett 00:34
My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's Podcast, where we interview great sporting coaches to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. Our great coach on this episode is Charlie Walsh. Charlie Walsh was the coach of the Australian cycling team from 1980 until 2000. During that time, he took the Australian team from a world rank of 25 to number one. Along the way, he coached cyclists to 10 world and 12 Olympic Games records and across Olympics and World Championships, his athletes 143 gold medals, 31 silver medals, and 43 bronze medals. He has multiple Coach of the Year awards, and was recognized for his services to cycling when he was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia in 1987. Charlie is a master coach with a legendary reputation in the world of cycling. He was an early adopter of high performance psychology, where he coached his athletes to push themselves beyond their physical and mental limits. And you will hear him share his views on the connection between the mind and body in depth. The parts of this conversation that resonated the most with me were his thoughts on everything athletes do as being driven by the mind. And so therefore athletes must have the best mind in the competition. Decision Making under mental duress, his philosophy of self challenge and using it to propel yourself with others do not want to go and the process of training the mind through stressing it in the same way you develop the body. It's a great conversation. And I hope you enjoy it as much as Jim and I did. The great coaches podcast. Ciao, Charlie Walsh. Good morning. Well, good afternoon, Roger, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Charlie Walsh 02:32
Well, thank you, Paul. I'm pleased to be here. And certainly afternoon over here in Adelaide.
Paul Barnett 02:38
Let's start with something quite easy. Charlie, can you tell me where you are in the world and what you've been up to today.
Charlie Walsh 02:45
I'm down in Adelaide, South Australia. I've just put dinner On for tonight. And I played golf this morning. Not particularly well. But that's, that's how it goes. But I have a lot of fun with the dice. So that's basically been my day. Well, I'm
Paul Barnett 03:03
very thankful to get a bit of time before dinner, to talk all things cycling, mental development, and hopefully a little bit about gold medals as well. So Charlie, I have been looking forward to this discussion for a long time because I think your record is unique in world sport. And I'm looking forward to getting into that with you. And I'd probably like to start there actually, because you coached at six Olympic Games 15 world cycling championships, as well as traveling extensively all over the world with cycling, you really have had a global perspective of other coaches. And so I'd like to ask, from this vantage point, what is it you think the great coaches do differently?
Charlie Walsh 03:49
When I first started coaching, my attitude was well, I don't know at all. And far from that, I need to have a look and see what the best coaches in the world are doing. And how their athletes are also behaving because behaving because I've seen that as a as part of the package. I didn't just look at cycling coaches, I looked at coaches from AFL, I looked at two swimming coaches and Forbes Carlisle, and a guy from the USA and people from other sports. And from that I sort of derived that one of the key ingredients in them was their philosophy. And your philosophy is all encompassing, but they were certainly very clear, as I seen it, what is the best in their particular sport, sporting field and what is required to get there? They were certainly very direct. They were clear, concise, self challenge, self discipline stood right out amongst them. They were not about cells. So the ego was It's not about that it was about what can I do for you? They certainly will not know at all. So they were quite prepared to seek information from others. They had a concept of an athlete centered program. We're all responsible and accountable. And I think that's also another part of the ingredient that has to be there. They had a capacity to take others along wisdom. And how were they doing that? They were certainly not tolerant of those who have big egos. But not particularly capable. Because they can impinge about what you need to do[P1] . And I think the other thing that I noticed, if there's a single aspect that is not attended to then finally becomes more possible. So those sorts of series of things that I looked at, and then from that, well, what is the package that I'm going to put together, to deliver to the athletes I'm going to work with in our environment. So you need to take a little bit of, I think, from everybody, and then put this package together. And that's how I started off.
Paul Barnett 06:10
And Charlie you've coached for so long, if I was to ask you, what are the main changes you've seen over those 15 years? Is it possible to summarize that and encapsulate it?
Charlie Walsh 06:20
Yeah, well, nothing stays the same, and the natio are flexible and prepared to adapt to, as you say, changes take place, you will get left behind, very particularly saved from the science aspect, the technical aspects, things of that nature. And science opened the door to give you a greater understanding, I was always quite reserved about opinions, because opinions are sometimes emotionally driven. And we have to take that out of it. And that's where science give you facts or figures, you got to be a little bit careful on your intention of those. And my interpretation was all about well, does that fit in terms of the philosophy that I'm trying to deliver, but it does give you the opportunity to move ahead, and I think move closer towards perfection. But perfection is the thing today becomes the norm. And so the bar keeps getting raised, have the demands change in any sport. And what it actually takes to be the best is the question[P2] . And I would say from, from most books of mine, the physical side that they will change, I don't see that the psychologies never change, because the psychology in being able to challenge yourself being able to be fears to be able to be in control, I don't think that has changed. Maybe the management of athletes has changed a little bit. But ultimately, it comes down to well, how are you going to ethically say implement what you need to to have the athlete as I see it with the best mind in the competition. So I'm not sure that it certainly has changed from a technical aspect, it certainly changed in the physiology because we learn more and more and more back when I was coaching, there was saying we have three different types of muscle fibers. Now the latest research are the same, we've got seven different types of muscle fibers. And they are all refueled differently. So that is certainly a change and but that just that enables us as a coach to be more precise, and have a greater understanding of why things are happening than I often hear where they talk about hamstrings and all the breaking down and things of that nature, not so much in that was in AFL which I spent about eight years after I retired from cycling. And one thing that stood out to me and all the work that I was doing over eight years and summer long about two and a half 1000 individual bike sessions was that those who are getting aims hamstrings were not exposed enough to high fourth repeat type exercise. And that's the beauty of the bike, you can measure that. And you could do it. And you could actually target it. There were some who are saying that we're not tagging that targeting name strings, and I didn't know what they're talking about. Because I knew we were and how we're actually doing it. And what I've found over those eight years and 1000s of bikes is people that were exposed to high force, repeat activities, were actually targeting their higher force muscle fibers. And so they got less tired, and they had the capability to stand up to a higher resistance. And so I surmise that those who are breaking hamstrings, their high force fibers weren't working. They got tired. And so the recruiting life lower for cyber said they didn't know that. So measurement and science allows you to do things I think a little bit better. But you do have to take yourself out of the normal trend and say, Oh, this happened to be that yeah, I forgot to question yourself. Maybe shaunc allows you to do that better to,
Paul Barnett 10:03
as much as you are famous for physical development of your athletes, athletes, I think the thing that gets talked about the most these days is your approach to performance psychology, where you actually teach athletes to push themselves beyond their physical and mental limits. And it's such a topic these days building resilience, making or helping people of all whether they're in sport, or whether they're at work or their home to be more resilient. I'm really interested in what was it in your life or your experience that pushed you or gave you the idea to put this in the center of your coaching philosophy?
Charlie Walsh 10:37
Well, I guess it really comes from initially, your own performance as a as a competitor, away, you sort of think well, could have I been better in that area now, I never added a coach. So everything that I've done, you're sort of tried to do it yourself. I guess that was that was the sort of a start point, and looked at the people that you're competing against, and bearing off quite naive, and you seen them as being fierce, relentless, hard minded, better than what I was. And so from that, you then come back and say, well, that needs to be an important part of where we go. Because I see those people as being highly successful. And I seen it as that reason. But also, when, when I moved into coaching, I was studying to be a teacher. So I went back to school. And part of that is about psychology. I mean, that enhances you more, so I had the strong, the strong view, that everything is driven by the mind. And even so even in the recruitment of particular muscle fibers within the muscle that's driven by the mind. So everything that we do the sequencing, everything we do is driven by the mind. And so we need to make, as I said, in a training of what we do the best mind in the competition. And if we haven't trained the mind to do that, then we'll then we're failing, you're never the best body in the world. If we haven't conditioned the mind, to satisfy the competition demands, then as a coach, we have failed. So it's a matter of trying to do all of those things together. And we also also knew that we need to be able to make good decision when tied. And so there has to be part of your training. Everybody can do things when it's lovely. We're going to be able to do things when the pressures on from the seat physical sense, but also the pressure of the competition[P3] . I started coaching here in South Australia with some kids in South Australia. We were minnows on the national scene, saying we had some good good riders. But basically, we weren't what we need to do. So how am I going to change the psychology and physically equipped, so when I did, and so I said, Well, I'll meet you at five o'clock in the morning, we'll do an hour on the road. And it was on I was on a budget when you train it was on. And so they we would train up the small hills and down them on fixed gear. And then they would go, they would ride home, then they had to start work at seven or 730. So time for a bit of breakfast, ride to work and do that. And then they would have to get home and meet me at the bike track to train about 430 in the afternoon. I had for them a standing kilometer, which is a hard that's over one minute. So when do four to six of those on the 10 minute, add probably 90% I'm getting them to control and regulate not just whoosh bang. Now that is a top in hard training session filled out with lactate. And then also well after you go home, this is a Friday off, you go home and have a snack to eat not too much, because you're racing that night. So they go out at eight o'clock and they're racing warm up before they're tired from a pretty heavy schedule. And the other blocks are all fresh. And now my expectation of them is I don't expect you to win. But what I want to see is this thing in terms of your skills, this terms in terms of your strategy, and if you do not give in. And so we want we want those things. So they went out and did it now the first week. They struggled. They didn't complain. They accepted what we were trying to try to do. But what I did see was a real focus when they were tired on trying to implement strategies and trying to maintain skills I'm saying, Do not move on the bike. I don't want to see any grimaces in the face, everything. I'm getting numb to Take control of what you're doing. And then I would try and Saturday trying every day of the week, and work five days a week. And then the second week, they improve the third week, they started to win in the local competitions. And of course, all the, you know, all the knows the same, they're all gonna die and that from, but so then I seen a change in the psychology, we can do this. Now we've got management over ourselves under duress, we're performing when other said we couldn't. Well, both of those kids went on to be Olympians, and mitred, a winner and Barbie, Olympic champion, Australian champion, Commonwealth Games champion and all of those sorts of things. And it came about purely simply because of the philosophy of self challenge. They'll make the decision, the athlete themselves, how hard they will actually go, they'll make the decision when it's going hard, whether I will give in or will I not give it. But for whatever reason they seen. And that's part of the package that you got to have the capacity to take people with you. If we do this, I can get this outcome[P4] . Nobody knows what's possible. But you have got to have a pretty fair crack on it. So that's probably give you a little bit of know how we started. And then I took that same philosophy when I took over as national coach in 1980. Now that took a while to evolve. And look, there was resistance. But gradually, the resistance melts away. When you're successful.
Paul Barnett 16:38
I want to talk to you actually about the books that you wrote on cycling coaching. But if I could just stick with you for a minute on this idea of building mental resilience, it's a great, it's a great example, Charlie, and it's proven, it's been proven time and time again. There's also something you said in many, many times about motivation, I'd just like to repeat the quote to if I quote, The coach creates the belief that the athletes dreams are possible, that motivation must come from within. And so I know that you don't give big motivational speeches, you rely on the athletes to be self directed. But you know, could you tell me a little bit more about what the role of the cycling coach is, once you take away the motivation and bring in the psychology in the science.
Charlie Walsh 17:27
I mean, if the athletes motivation is are high, we can just basically stand back and watch. But they're, I mean, they have the motivation, they want to be successful, we can maintain that motivation, maybe enhance that bit, by the way that we will deliver our package to them and create that belief that if you do these things, here is the outcome that you will get now that outcome. And the collection of outcomes will contribute to you performing at your best possible possibility. Now, we can't guarantee success. But we have to create the environment, that if you do these things, then you can be successful. And ultimately, it is the athlete who will make those decisions. And certainly I can say to you, I've had the case when high performing athletes had lost their motivation, no matter what you will do, or no matter what I do, when it wasn't there, it wasn't there. And they will try but when the going gets tough, they will just tend to ease off a little bit. And when you get to the real performance, then it can be spasmodic, because that's basically how it's been motivation[P5] . And I can tell you, I really tried hard with one particular guy, do everything. Tron. You got to have a good relationship, have a good relationship, try and carry them along. But ultimately, right through to a final it was all right in the file. It didn't work. And that's when the heat is on.
Paul Barnett 19:08
Well, let's talk about some finals then. Because I've heard you say that the highlight of your time as coach was the gold from the team pursuit in 1984. Could you tell us a little bit about this the story of this race and why it means so much to you.
Charlie Walsh 19:24
I mean, it's been a long bit of a long story, but I actually started preparing for this in 1983. All the lads that we had in Australia, were working full time and total budget for road road and track cycling overseas was $29,000. That was very little. So some of the lads out of their own pocket. We flew them over to Europe and they looked at themselves for three months I go, I was in contact with them and had them doing stuff. That was the start of trying to get a good package together. And they rode reasonably well, we had a disaster, one lead, fell under some pretty serious head injuries, which he got over and that was my granddad. Then when we started in the preparation of 84, once again, we're all working full time. Any time that I've got, I'm taking in leave or long service ladies. And the lads were relying on their income to be able to eat, whereas their competitors had full time coaches, and I'm coached for all disciplines, Sprint right through to the endurance events, the one person, whereas the people we're up against, I had multiple coaches, athletes, full time, coaches full time, everything really laid on for them. But our lads had to supply some of their equipment and also pay. And we ran some camps. And certainly, I paid to look after some of them and feed them and things like that. And they paid the pay themselves. So their commitment, you'd have to say, you would not get better, I'm probably that made them also drive a little bit hard when, when they were training our equipment which they can do what was and they kept changing the rules on equipment. And then we've also faced even in the competitions, where they changed the rules to help, particularly the Americans along. So that was things like this, that we're up against. And then of course, the ultimate thing is that we use it for poor performance enhancing products. And that was all and some of that came out later blood doping and things of that nature. So it was everything. Nothing was easy, but that made the ledge more determined. So every bit of training that I'll put to them away, they do. And they had the belief once again, here's this package, I'm saying to them, we are going down this path of science, we're trying to meet him, we're doing this doing that. And they believed it. And I remember one of them saying to me, it was so when I got on that start line, I felt that I was the best prepared athlete. So that's our job as a coach. And I can remember Mike Turner, he crashed
Charlie Walsh 22:19
10 days before the Olympic Games and broke a bone in his hand. So there's two things that he's concerned about. One is the concern about all will he now ride me? Or and two, will I be actually able to ride with this hand? Fortunately, or unfortunately, I broke my hand when racing years before in two bones in a hand. But I'd gone to race down in testimony no was not not going to race. So I raced and I just hung the web of my hand on the handlebars, I managed to do it and rode reason well, and I saw I said, hey, look, I've done this before. So there's no issue about your riding. In fact, you're gonna feel more pain in your legs, and you're going to feel from your hand, I was trying to give him an assurance, one that he was going to ride and two that I'm not going to accept any weakness in him or I've got a broken hand it will be sore. And that's just you make these decisions. How am I actually going to handle this, we did it with this particular athlete to ensure that he's going to be safe in his mind in the round against Italy, and I remember this week, and we were we qualified pretty well. But really easily had disk wheels, super bikes, and all this stuff was going to give them heaps of advantage. And so in chatting with the with the lads, we had a good light there and nibbles aggressively loved the campaign. And you try and bring it out of them. And so they decided are condemned to do this. They're going to attack the Italian, Italian first up in the first kilometer. Because I'm working on where Australians, we have this, this fierceness about them the digger mentality, the we're cracking in so they absolutely went to the mall, hang on, they went to the verge kilometer and now take the race and there and they thought that'd be conditioned well enough. Well, they put two seconds in early in the first kilometer and that rattled them. And we held on to win by 1.7 seconds and I think and broke the track record. It's never been broken since because they pulled it down a bit late. But had been said to you before by the Russians and these Germans.
24:39
This is the final of the teams pursued at the Olympic velodrome Australia versus the United States. And this is a wonderful chance for a gold medal for Australia for sure. We'll go on they're coming around now into just over three and a half laps to go time and we'll do a full lap Possibly then drove out of the race at the one kilometer to go market Australia led by 1.27 seconds I've increased a line. And I'll try that increase that even further. Yes, it's now one and a half seconds for this be Australia's first gold medal at the Olympic game. More than two seconds is the difference. Now Australia has the gold medal in its kobane. I come down to Australia express your team, like I told her to go to my gym now is over two seconds, it's 2.05 seconds, the Australians would have to lose a rider to lose the gold medal. As they come down the back striker Kevin Nichols. Certainly finishing this perfect formation trovato says the grinder goes up the track what's comes.
Charlie Walsh 25:47
So and the world world champion team from the year before was there. So it was one of those things that probably the odds were against him. But by I think their character and all of the things you will admire people came through I mean, I've had we've had other outstanding performances, since then broken world record, done things that have never been done before in team asserting and never been done since. And they were done once again, by this capacity of a really good leader and O'Grady, who would love that self challenge. And he asked me Can he do this in training, which meant doubling his workload. And I said, I don't have an issue with that. In fact, I wouldn't have an issue if you're not prepared to self challenge. As a leader, he did things that nobody thought was possible. And that's how you get somewhere.
Paul Barnett 26:44
Charlie, it's a great story, because it was also the start of the dynasty. It really began there in in 84, I think we got the first gold medal since 56. For an Australian cycling team, it was it was the beginning of a golden run, which I remember grew up with.
Charlie Walsh 27:01
Yeah, it was nice kids did so much for what was to follow, because they provided the opportunity to get us into the Institute of Sport, by provided the opportunity for better funding and things of that nature. If they don't do everything that they did, then who knows where we would be now?
Paul Barnett 27:22
Charlie, can I go back to managing yourself under duress, which is central to the message that you have. And it's so as I said earlier, it's so relevant today, if an athlete and I'm sure they do from other sports, talk to you. And I know that you've you've spoken to a lot of work with Australian Football, and you've, you've spoken to the swimmers and so forth. But what would be your top tips, what would be the top two or three things that an athlete out there could do with the help of their coach to start managing themselves better under duress
Charlie Walsh 27:55
got to be very clear about where you're where you want to go and how you're going to get there. That's our job as a coach, if the athlete does not see that picture, it's difficult for them. Ultimately, it comes down to the very simple thing, except the fact that self challenge is critical. And I remember reading early in the piece that if we want to modify the body, you're subject to stress, chronic stress. So if it's lovely in training, the body says Oh, I like that. And I will stay like that. You actually have to severely challenged the body. Now the mind is no different to the body, you must challenge the body, we all like to be comfortable. That's That's why we have the standards of living that we do nowadays, because of this pursuit of trying to make things more comfortable, we make things more comfortable for our children. I'm not necessarily sure we're getting the outcomes we would want by making it too comfortable for them because you're taking away this capacity for self challenge. And it's terrible it is to say the more severe the challenge sometimes the better it is. But it's not just challenged for the sake of chase managed challenge. So we got to see and you got to educate you got to work with your athletes to severely challenge them. And then you will give them some sort of feedback generally, particularly when our sidewalk working with the football was I wish they would challenge but then I would go back and you're all would always look for something positive out of what they have done. It may be a minuscule thing, because that put themselves through a fair amount of torment. But that minuscule thing is maybe just all they need to say to them that was worthwhile. Now we can go on to the next step.[P6]
Paul Barnett 29:58
It's a it's such an important And I'm, I know, as a father, I'm very focused on it and you make you make a good point I don't, you want things to be comfortable, but you also want a level of controlled risk to develop, you know, develop skills early, early on that you'll need later in, in life. So I think, I think it's a very relevant topic. These days,
Charlie Walsh 30:21
well, my son is doing it with his daughter, she's 11. And she's in dancing, and some of the other children will be like they will and be a little bit negative. Particularly Conchita, she has a hard work ethic. And he's induced that into them. And I just sit back, and I watch, and I watch See, see this girl growing as a person growing because she's working hard. She's now learning to Manny's the negativity of others, but be successful. And she called me the other night, she was so proud of herself. It's that management of them that you love them dearly. And you've but you've also got to get them to take on that self challenge. And then it'd be managing, you've got to be a little bit careful about that, too. You just can't be brutish. And whatever else, it's that inch by inch by inch by inch that you keep sneaking away at it, a little bit of that, or challenge but a little bit of reward, challenge, a little bit reward all that didn't work. And you're quite happy to discuss that. And I would say to the athletes early in that, look, I don't know what the outcome of this will be. But I want to have a go at it. And you give me feedback. And so you would involve the athletes and they would give us feedback, feedback. And from there, then I may modify things, and they would actually see, oh, he's listening to us, this is happening or whatever else. Otherwise, listen at the point, but don't ever come to me and asked me to change things to make it easier. That was
Paul Barnett 32:00
never gonna happen. actually tell you, you didn't have a manual when you started. There was no coaching manual for cycling, you ended up riding the first three, which is amazing. And a lot of the training we have today. And a lot of the success of the Australian cycling team today comes from that period, I think when you were setting it up, but that's not the question because I know that we can be contentious in that area. I'd like to say to you if we could wind the clock back. And we could take you back to that 25 year old who was starting his career very young, actually, to be a coach. If you were able to stand in front of that person now, what advice would you give them about coaching?
Charlie Walsh 32:42
Well, you've been very Khan, you've not 10 years, started with about 35. Thank you. Sorry.
Paul Barnett 32:50
25. My apologies.
Charlie Walsh 32:52
Yeah, well, I mean, I would say that it's not said there's other guys that is starting out on their coaching career, get your philosophy, right, because that will define you as a coach, all of the diseases you make and what you achieve will come from your philosophy. And you need to be very careful. Don't let people take you away from that philosophy. [P7] Unless you think what they're trying to tell you is well founded, you need to be a good listener, seek information always in pursuit of information, love listening to people like herb Elliot and others, john Landy, so not from our sports, other people from different so I love to listen, I used to love to listen to everybody get out and some of the best in the world of cycling. And from that, you get a feeling about what is required to be successful. We know the underlying thing with them all. It's about psychology, and not talking to the very best in the world. I'd be saying to them, do not accept staff, to work with you who are not on the same planet as you. Because you need to have a staff that is supportive of the philosophy, you may need to bring them back occasionally to that philosophy. I have certainly seen the situations where others have allowed people to modify the philosophy and to be come with in philosophy. If you're trying too hard, you'll get this or if you're trying to add your audit. I went through that as a scientist, but I've seen coaches get brought down by that. So you have to be very strong, very clear about your philosophy, write it down, all the note what has brought you to this philosophy and then compare it against what you think is a link but you need to be very clear about that. And certainly as a head coach, you need to be very clear and see that They're saying after that comes all of the technical aspects, and all of those other things, but it is the philosophy that will underpin everything. So they're clear on that. That's a pretty good start[P8] . And then you got all the experts to use.
Paul Barnett 35:16
tell you I imagine being in cycling, particularly when any period Actually, yeah, there must have been a time that you were ethically challenged with, or by the use of performance enhancing drugs. Did that ever happen to you? And if so, how did you navigate those ethical question marks?
Charlie Walsh 35:36
Well, I was never challenged to the point to consider us ever using performance enhancing drugs. And when I race, it wasn't part of my because I decided as a hobby cyclists, I knew a little bit of what was going on or hear about it. So I went and talked to my doctor, and he gave me his opinion on it all. And I accepted that on some one of my hobbies, cyclists, I work full time I do all of these things. So I didn't want to treat myself. So that's what I did. Now, certainly, I was challenged both internationally. And by some in Australia, who might believe we're using performance enhancing drugs. Now, I guess if I, when I retired or retired, probably a little bit deterred by the use of performance enhancing drugs, my perception of it should I say, and, of course, politics is one of those things that account should never be a politician, the moment you are a politician, you start making decisions of appeasement, and that you cannot do so you undermine yourself. I think we did, in looking back at it back on it extraordinarily well, in what we did. Now, do you, as I said, Well, I had my perception of people in and you cannot let anybody like that, as I my perception. And I thought that you have a perception that they may be using performance enhancing products, they, if they come in and you tolerate it, then you're accepting of it. As a as a coach, you're dealing with other people's children, and you cannot go down any path that may have a negative impact sometime upon them in the future, both in the physical aspect and the psychological aspect. And I would say to them, when you finish your career and library in your life, you can sit down and you look at people in the eye. And you can say that was actually me, not something naturally all bloody kokstad is coaching us gave me to use. And I think that was particularly important in terms of their psychology. [P9] But you also have, you know, you have to have respect to the integrity of the sport, and team integrity within that, and cannot go down that doping is perceived as being acceptable. And under any circumstances, you have to also have that attitude, that there is equal opportunity for all of us to be part of the national team, and not one by resorting to using performance enhancing products to get into the team. And so you had athletes within that team that were supportive of that philosophy, and they would provide you with information. And so we had to have that had you say that environment within our team. And that is driven by the head coach. And so I discourage the use of needles by a cyclist purely and simply because I didn't know where that would end up. If I'm encouraging the use of needles does that mean then later on in social life, they will go down that path. So you can go down and we we had a rule, no cyclists or take anything without the permission of our doctor. And then our other guy who worked hand in hand under the doctor what they call it as one year, but he was a fitness trainer. And then once they got clearance, then then it came down to me because my concern is about the psychology of being dependent on any product rather than being dependent on you working hard. I thought that the 90s was probably the worst period, when you can take what you like when you liked and how much you like the 80s wasn't good. The 90s more products became so in the 80s and 90s was a particularly harsh environment and light in the 1960s started to put limits on the use of EPO before it was limitless. And then I saw they put some constraints after I retired. But it was still still being used. But they were a little bit more inhibited. And that to me, I always had the opinion that they weren't doing enough
Charlie Walsh 40:19
doing everything that I possibly could, I think very early in the 80s, I thought there was an attitude by most countries, or taptap, performance enhancing drugs, or they're not the thing. But to your point when and I'm pretty happy about it. So I thought I thought that tended to exist in those times, that did gradually change. Then I had the battle with athletes taking them to court if things weren't precisely right. So it was certainly a battle battle for administrators. But then if I go along to the year 2000, i is worked with us for two years, traveling with our team to see what happened when we trained different environments on our blood. So they got the picture of us. And then they did all of this other testing, and they came up with a blood test for EPO to be used at the 2000 Olympics. Now I think one of the other cards you might be in France, came up with a urine test for EPO. And so the administrators decided, oh, well, if you file both of these tests, then you're in trouble. But the only problem with that was is this is how I was explained to me on the urine test when they took the injections for EPO. And I think I had to do a series of it and then do other things with it and whatever, however complex that was, after you've taken your last injection, it lasted in for about three days in Iran, and then it was clear. So you had a three day period after the last injection where they could go positive. On the blood test. You they took the injection that goes to the kidney, which secretes a hormone goes through the blood marrow and and manufactures this new hemoglobin, which was actually different. But it would take three, probably four days before that would come up. So you're never going to fail both tests. So you're on drops out just before the blood one comes up. So I didn't think they really serious. And there are other things that went on in Sydney that once again, really good to me, I got kids to putting their heart and soul in it, doing everything that they possibly can. And from their perception being beaten people aren't doing it as we were. It's just one of those things that's part of the sport, you do your best. You think for the athletes, you do the best you can with a responsibility to their parents and sport. If I look back on it, we would have had gold medals porn out of our ears at Olympic Games, if I had even allowed the use of it, but much less divided implemented the system like so the communist countries have done, they would have been flowing everywhere.
Paul Barnett 43:23
Well, thank you for not doing it. That's important that
Charlie Walsh 43:26
Apple that that's the decision you make, and I'm happy to live with it. And so emotionally athletes, so
Paul Barnett 43:33
tell me when I rang you to prepare for this interview, you told me you'd been writing some of your memoirs from your life. sport has been such a big part of your life, particularly coaching, although you are a very successful, well, successful cyclist. I know you can say you're not but you want hundreds and hundreds of races in your own right? What's the legacy you believe you've left? As a coach?
Charlie Walsh 43:59
I would think probably a legacy of that if you want to succeed, it will only come from hard work, self challenge, take yourself somewhere where you've never been before. I think that's what we set out to do. I think that's what we achieve success with[P10] . I mean, more than the other things of introducing science and all of those things, I think they will all just tend to fall away. Whereas I think the hard work ethic has been watered down significantly. I think psychologists have a lot to answer for because they will make decisions without really understanding see, as a coach you you're going to cover everything, not just one particular area. And I can remember sitting down with a psychologist just a couple of years as a sports psychologist. I'm working in through some aspects about self challenge, but also on their responsibility to takes the athlete how to manage, how to stand up and manage when he's faced with difficulty. So I don't think that will ever change. Not in not a matter of fact, I watched a bit last night on a guy called Ronaldo, soccer player. Goodness gracious me, I've never seen anything like it here. He is just so incredible. But what also came out on there is his hard work ethic, his love to challenge his love to pursue to be the best in the world, not just the best, the best in the world. I don't think it matters where you go, when you see these people that are really successful, you go back to Jordan, all these guys in these different sports, have this love of self challenge to pursue to take themselves where others are not prepared to get on. So I like to think that that's the legacy you leave.[P11]
Paul Barnett 46:00
Kelly Walsh, it's been a privilege to chat with you today. I have had you on the wish list for this show from day one when we started. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on a long, successful and illustrious career. And I'll let you get back to the dinner which probably is burning right now in the kitchen.
Charlie Walsh 46:19
I know lots long, slow cooking fall. I've enjoyed it immensely. And can I just finish off a bit I think I've been privileged, privileged to spend the time and company that I think people will accept exceptional. And Firstly, I'll start with Neil Craig. Because Neil was very much a part of the philosophy that we had. I used to rely on him. If I wanted fixed up on the psychology of athletes, I will involve him. So he I thought Neil was an exceptional person. That's an exceptional contributor to where we went. Another guy, Ric Charlesworth. Once again, I used to love that. He was the guy that I used to love to listen to. You listen to him and his philosophy. It's all about hard work. It's all about challenge and people like that. I spent a little bit of time with Eddie Jones. And I admired what he's done with the with the English rugby team. Now, I don't know anything about rugby. But I just sat and watched his performance and all of the things you like to see in an athlete. They were there at that last World Cup. So good. I'm very privileged to have spent company and people who I think are exceptional coaches, and all have that qualities that I admire. So okay, won't hold you any longer pole. The great coaches
47:51
podcast.
Jim Woolfrey 47:54
Hi, everyone, it's Jim here. You've been listening to how discussion with the legendary cycling coach Charlie Walsh. The key highlights for me were his views on the damage that psychologists can do. How preparing the mind for competition is as important as preparing the body. And how self challenge is way more important than challenge from others. And it's crucial if you are to develop a world championship mindset. I hope you enjoyed this as much as Paul and I did. In our next episode, we will be speaking to former Australian cricketer and now coach Julia price. If I don't do this, well, that means every other female and future is not good enough is not good enough to be a bbl coach and I hadn't even thought of it that way at that stage. So which is absolutely ridiculous. So I think my suggestion or advice to people is just do what you do the best worry about your own strengths. Don't worry about the external factors and the and the noise that goes on around it or you do what your strengths are and be confident in those strengths. And don't worry too much about the outside unless you want to. And just before we go, coaches are not usually the type of people who seek the spotlight. And so if you can put us in contact with a great coach that you know, has a unique story to share. We would love to hear from you. You can contact us using the details in the show notes.