Franco Smith edit
Wed, Aug 09, 2023 5:30PM • 36:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, people, players, team, sport, personality, rugby, belief, dream, environment, played, life, influence, game, character, success, season, person, change, important
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Franco Smith
Paul Barnett 00:03
Right go Smith. Good evening my time. Good morning, your time and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Franco Smith 00:10
Good morning. Lovely to be part of it.
Paul Barnett 00:12
Thank you for carving out a little bit of time to talk to us about all things rugby. Of course with the World Cup on its way everyone's excited to to get into rugby mode. But could I start with something simple Franco? Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been doing so far today?
Franco Smith 00:29
Yeah, I'm in Scotland. I'm in Glasgow. I've rushed into the office this morning. Some of the boys are busy with a preseason preparation. So good to see some of them. Got what a big stuff out Yeah, eager to get going. And looking forward to the new season. So couple of meetings this morning quickly to align everybody for what's needed in the next couple of weeks. And today, specifically, soy is within precision. Although the boys are not in here yet. We've We've commenced our new season, looking into the 2023 2024 season.
Paul Barnett 01:06
Well, thank you for carving out a little bit of time for us to talk all things rugby. And I think I'd like to start by name checking a couple of great coaches, to South Africans, Nick mallet and Rassie, Erasmus. And of course, Conor O'Shea, the Irish, the Irishman, we've had Connor on the show, but you've worked with those coaches, you've seen them up close. So I'd like to ask you, what do you think it is the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Franco Smith 01:33
Now first of all, I think it's different ideas and different beliefs and a different way of of doing it and a different way to you know, organize the passion that you have for the for the sport so and then I think one important ingredient is also to understand your limitations. And I think that is what is great coaches about this. Not always being right, but thorough and strong in your beliefs, and making sure you know that you are able to follow through what you believe in?[PB1] Yes, I've worked with Rossi for many years, we both started the coaching and during 2005 together, Jacque Norbert at that stage was actually the the physio slash trainer and because of the lack of budget, so the three of us started together in 2005 coaching. And so I've worked with them. And I know, you know, our firm and strongly the belief that those are we adapted during the years, Nick obviously coached me through the 17 days matches we won consecutively when I was playing for South Africa, and yeah, he's a passionate guy. He's very hard on what's right and what's wrong. And how you express yourself. So yes, again, somebody that believes that's the leafs strongly in what the in the passion of the game and how you apply yourself. And then obviously, Connor, more of a guy that manages Well, and, and somebody that, you know, engages everybody gets some good coaches on board, Mr. Favorite saying is that wreck was easy game. So the main thing for him was all about organizing, getting more people with knowledge in the right places to influence the team. So again, if you sum up that my summary and that is just you must stick with your beliefs you must try and and get it across, understandably to wherever you go, Gene and what bless you are working with?
Paul Barnett 03:26
Well, let's go back to the start, shall we? Because you started life as a school teacher. You were a geography teacher, I understand. But what's more amazing is you do this 360 kilometer, I don't know what that is in miles for the other mile based listeners, but you do this massive journey every day to train. And this was on top of the training you do in the morning. So I wanted to ask you what did that dedication and sacrifice teach you? That is visible in your coaching philosophy today?
Franco Smith 03:57
Yeah, I think the reasons I did that was obviously that the fact that it wasn't professional, but it was going to become an you know, we wanted to live a dream. So for me, I always believed that if you want your water to be turned into wine, you must at least fill the casks, you know and you've gone to expect the rain if this if the fields are not prepared. So that was always the my feeling and every time I've had success in my life is when I worked really hard, not hard, very hard edit was fitter, and stronger or I dissipated better. And even in my coaching career, you know, there's no place for complacency and, and that I taught myself through that discipline. It was it was tough, you know, at that at that time, but I was young enough and eager enough and I was full of belief and what what can happen so that it actually made it easy looking back now it's one of the bass lessons I can, you know, teach or learn of that I've learned and I can teach the plays that I'm involved with now is that it It success comes through artwork, you've got to fool your gods if you wanted to turn in water into wine and being a believer is I know that you earn your your you must earn your wage through art work from the sweat on your brow, so, so that was always my philosophy and through the grace, I mean, it always paid off well, and it gave me and put me in a good position to go to the next job. I've never applied for a job in my life up. I've never applied for the job. It's always came to me. I was always invited into a new environment in Davao, I still believe the fact that you work hard and you have certain principles and discipline, in that regard gives you the best chance of being the best version of yourself.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 05:44
Well, you worked hard you took lots of played obviously for South Africa, then you took lots of assistant jobs and you worked your way up, and your first head coaching role was with Benetton. But what's amazing is, it was instant success. You know, you won the national championships, the Coppa Italia and the Super Cup. It's a great start to being a head coach. But when you reflect on that time, what do you remember finding most challenging in that leadership role?
Franco Smith 06:12
Yeah, again, I just want to put a little bit of perspective on it. I played there in the end of my career, so I knew the environment where I was going. And I was obviously, it was two and a half years off that I've stopped playing these nothing's changed, the same CEO was in a lot of the players that I knew was there about. So I understood the challenge, really well. So that was obviously a big benefit. I was a only coach, there was no assistant coaches back in the day, I knew what took me a little bit out of my comfort zone in the sense that I had to go for Coach forwards back to the fence, attack, the gigging environment. And I, fortunately, I've got a degree in sports science, so I could help s&c coach a little bit in that regard. But, you know, the main thing was, I came from an alpha super active background that didn't reach our coach three years and a super active in 2005, six and seven. And obviously, that that professionalism had to be taken to a country that wasn't at that stage professional at all. They've, you know, the way of trade, the way they trained in intensity, the density of trainings the way you know, the detail around that was a little bit too much. I think the one of the big challenges there was, you know, you could run this beautiful place with beautiful dummy lines, but nobody fell for the dummy lines. And that means that just ended up in the wrong place. And you look a little bit out of sorts, then from a player's perspective, and from planning perspective, because the the even the opposition was not in the same level that we were used to. And then obviously, you have to then find a way to make blind people see, I think, therefore, that even that if it isn't in that country at that stage was was battling because there actually it was up so. So I that they, the other teams couldn't get back on site, and they weren't good penalized, they couldn't blow the whistle 65 times for penalty. So it was challenging, I think, also the way I wanted to manage the play. It was a big challenge for the CEO that was currently in that position. They went from one internationals only to 27 internationals, and obviously, the price of the players went up the the value in that regard, although there was always a feeling that Italian players weren't really of interest of any club outside of Italy, that still meant that they were needed to and wanted to be paid for the service. And they also, and then obviously their supporters, they were frustrated, and we're getting our last one, the first game that I've coached in Italy with 70 points in the very next one lost to 33 points without scoring. One point so and then it was just that that doughton goal that leads into good team that was really frustrating. But then obviously finding proper gym equipment, setting up proper agency system, getting the doctors I had three doctors at that stage there. So I had the GP I had an orthopedic surgeon, one of them and then I had biokinetic My biomechanics that also had influenced NIDA run my, my, my medical report through all of them to make sure that I've got the right state so much of that I ended up doing my own research on how do our longer player will be injured and what is the rehab program to make sure that they get it right. So yes, I introduced a lot of professionalism into it directly. For the first time they did individual warmups and not collectively like everybody was used to. So definitely a big challenge in that regard. But, you know, the fact that they were prepared to learn and the fact that they that they were prepared to, you know, work on it, I moved and J is the perception of our door to a completely and what it takes. So you're, again, mainly the fact that they were so open and eager to learn what led to the success.
Paul Barnett 10:14
But what's fascinating about your career is you've, as both a player and a coach, you've taken a lot of sideway steps, you haven't always gone straight forward for bigger roles. And I'm wondering if this was deliberate, and why you chose to build a career like this?
Franco Smith 10:34
Yeah, it was definitely deliberate. I want to be the bass coach, I'm 50 years old now. And I think of seeing the whole world I was. And I always wanted to coach teams that needs to perform above their level, I think delen obviously, delen needs more work, if talent works hard. And I always thought that, and most of the teams that I work with did not have the talent. So I wanted to prove the talent, that by working or even less talented people can perform above the levels. And, and obviously, I think in sport, there's a lot of perception, there's a lot of preconceived ideas about your own potential about your own ability. And if it was my challenge, to let people understand that they are better than they think they are, I think they've put their own, we put our own limitations and ourselves, I feel that aqui isn't a sport that still growing into becoming something extra ordinary, and there's still a lot of limits and the parameters to move. And, and if we work with talent, and with that wins anyway, you know, we're not going to move those barriers. So I wanted to equip myself, to work with different cultures to work across different cross borders with people that will surprise themselves, and then everybody else, you know, that stays my philosophy, you know, if, if the last words for the team always as these go out, they they surprise ourselves and then everybody else. And I think the main concern for me was all mine thing for me is that healthy people don't need a doctor. And I just think I've got it, I've got an ability, and I was blessed with the opportunity to, you know, just influence people, and then they'll take that, that, that, that idea and of performing better than they expected, you know, into their own lives, they have confidence in conversations, they will set themselves up for love, they will be comfortable in front of the, in front of the kids, once they become become parents that will really believe in [PB3] and therefore I chose to, you know, work with people I also wanted to learn, I also wanted to get it wrong, you know, if you work with players and teams that that can get it wrong sometimes, then you can actually try and be innovative and be a little bit, think and think a little bit out of the box and trying to try new things. And if it comes off, its gold. If it doesn't come off, then at least you know, next time this is the way and I think for me what had been the main benefit of all that experience was that I now can put the program together in a much shorter and shorter time. I don't need yours. I don't need months I can I can I know now, you know what, what, what is the right next week and the rapid pause the touch right nerves and and then obviously, concentrate on the detail, I know that deems that has to be better than opposition that's probably better equipped, must be more detail driven must be they must have worked much harder. So I like to stand in the change room and say that I'll be fitter than them, I'll be better prepared the ace. So just concentrate on the process and get us to the other side of the line. And that then allows also players with talent that's worked hard to express themselves in the environment. I didn't go to the ball carrier, I then coach the main the main figure, I try and coach everybody around the player that's got the ball so that the ego is allowed to you know, just express himself and through that my experience as in this area of working with players that was not necessarily the best in the world. You know, I could I could really surprise my myself and then the team in that regard.
Paul Barnett 14:30
Well, it's obviously work because there there is a clear theme in the story of your coaching. And it's around the immediate improvement of your teams whether it's shameless Bannatyne the cheaters are now Glasgow, this for examples of where you've taken over a team and they've experienced rapid improvement almost overnight in the in the next season. And I'm wondering, Franco, is there any similarities in the things that you do? First, when you start with a new team that allows this to happen
Franco Smith 15:06
no thing all coaches said the objective or a dog I blind said that dream the for the players you know, dream, something that was sometimes feel is too big for them to achieve. And I still believe if you don't, you know if you don't dream big enough, it's not a philosophy that I forgot I think it's over the all over the internet people are saying you must dream big and but then obviously try and find their own pathway, practical, physical for that matter pathway do that dream. So and it obviously starts with that belief in their own capability in their own creativity. And add in their own talent that was given to do them to obviously get to this, get to this. This dream that we are talking about. I think the mind important thing of a dream is that there must be specific process to it. They must understand what is practically needed and I think that is we have developed it coach intensity when I'm in Italy in as a coach of Benetton did very, very well, in the Italian competition. We want everything like you've mentioned before, but we always fail to produce in Europe when we played in Anakin cup. So the one thing I noticed that the intensity levels because we were not challenged so much in Italy, but because of the fact that we were so dominant, we add to upbound density to be competitive with a real big names in Europe. So I coached intensity, which allowed me to develop the rules that would correct that people actually have to do something to get to what they want. And that is where it comes that in the same for me came from that isn't that is gone. Wish something to happen, you have to do something you can't will something, you must really do something to get what you want. And I and I think that is where the key lies, is to seek the dream out the gate the pathway and show them practical steps and then change the perception about themselves. Because I think that is the only way you go to your dream they must. In week one or week two must already through the theoretical part of the game, or through the practical part that we've done out on the field realize that they are stepping they're actually walking up this mountain towards a dream. And once that belief sets in, it actually self generates the enthusiasm and the creativity around the[PB4]
Paul Barnett 17:38
break. I've heard you in other interviews refer to the players on the ground and their personalities. You describe them in different ways. For instance, you talk about one of them as a knight. And it was only a small piece of dialogue in an interview. But I was intrigued by it. I'm wondering, is there a way that you classify people so that you are able to understand them and ignite disbelief in them that you just talked about?
Franco Smith 18:05
Oh, I think most companies use the DISC profile. There was a visa is a company that did is restarted the research in 1984. And through the NFL. LinkedIn goes I think NFL is the closest other sport of the real contact sport where you you're really challenged as a man sometimes you know, not gonna give an inch not gonna give a meter. You make collisions, you have to get off the floor and make another action and triple actions, double actions, you got to be involved in that challenge us a person so why would you stand up another time? Why would you do this again? Why would you not flinch in front of contact or what makes you a determined person? Or and what makes you believe in what the coach asked you to do. So these are brick wall in front of you does do the coach help you define the soft spot in it and, and then that belief that obviously, you know leads directly from my perspective on the type of person you are the personality that you've been born with that was nurtured. So there's still many things we've got to talk about in this character and these personality.
So this personality traits of people that's been has been influenced with a plethora of parents and through the through the school teachers and nursery teachers back in the day, and they've, they've nurtured this person person's personality. So, for me to get the best out of him, it's important to understand what type of person is some people like to be, you know, confront to confronted directly and, and often talk specifically, you know, it's a short time to get a lot of info across. So if somebody is distracted or is not an identity, understand this personality trait, I might get it wrong and you might run out there and less enthusiastic or nervous or right and wrong for him. Most important, then you'll choose to keep the ball instead of pause to pause it instead of keeping it so It was really important to, you know, to understand that this, this program obviously gives you a different type of personalities, we did a online test. And I got to know more or less what each player was about, or under pressure. And when he was not under pressure that obviously allows my team talks during the week to be different than in the change room or just prior to the game. Some players like to be told to individually and not collectively that I'd like to be confronted in front of other people. So and then obviously, that your team develops a character, character or personality develops a personality and that personality usually is linked to the coaches but coaches personality. [PB5]
So the knight is, specifically I'm just because you've mentioned that the knight is somebody that cares and wants to protect other body, somebody else does like to be wrong, it doesn't like to turn around when Mr. Rowdy doesn't want to ask somebody else to fall for directions when he got it wrong. He drove drives the same way to work every day when he goes to work, you know. So that's people that that does not like to be veered off the site, if I'm going to confront them with with stop signs and direction, it almost we should make sure that I can get the message across, right. So the leaves the change in confidence, they can, you know, give more of himself on the field that's needed, because I think we all go just strive to do and they didn't do they didn't do in the present performance and elevation of the ability every week. So then through that personality traits. I know then and understand what type of player i need to speak to in what way and it usually works.
Paul Barnett 21:53
No, it sounds very good. I'm wondering, as you talk what kind of character I would be, but I'll take the disc later on. And I'll see how I come out. Branca, you often talk about your values. It's in all of your interviews. In fact, I've got a nice quote from you. And you say, because values is not just what you take onto the field. It's not just about winning games. It's about how you live your life. How you become that hero. Everybody wants to be an example for young kids in the future. And I'm curious, what are the values that travel with you as a leader.
Franco Smith 22:32
As a first of all, I hold myself responsible for something more than just people's opinion. So my own standards are video, I believe, like I said, I'm a believer in and I've got a brand called for it for God's glory. So matchday for God's glory.
So it's all about you know, being major for what he contributes in life, I'm a giver, an alligator. So I always encourage my players that you came here to give, not to get the fact that you get a salary at the end of the month, that's one thing. But you are here to give to you know, and I think rugby is a very good example of a sport that can be played in even when you give the ball to somebody else, always in a better position. For him maybe to score a try, you know, it's the most selfless game, sometimes you need to give give the ball to somebody else and in our work or to put him in a good position to you know, to maybe score a try. So, I think through that vision, I obviously you know, encourage people to you know, to look further I'm beyond the rugby field, what are what what values rugby is, is a sport of different shapes and sizes, it's got tall people, short people, it's got fat people and it's got quick people's love of people but these are all and actually represents the population of the world isn't it these are all environment that actually represents the whole team represents the population of the world in the sense that that, you know, they can identify with the characters that's on the field. And therefore the responsibility is that the it doesn't matter what size or shape or size, the vision in front of the score at the back, you represent somebody and somebody will believe in you and somebody will look up to you for that action and and therefore you know, values like you know, being respect and honesty. [PB6]
Now honesty also not just with with your teammates but with your with then taking it home being honest with your wife being honest with your parents, your friends, your your family, you know, the discipline aspect that comes off it you know, the audio teach your kids what's the difference between right and wrong I, I hope and always to my kids was the same message. You must just have the ability to understand what's the difference, and that is then my job done. I don't want to tell you what's different. So we believe in trust. So the responsibility of the of outcome shared and same in your household those same in your working environment where you're going to be off the rack we, we were and then obviously, you know a lot of things I've written down going this field is how do you handle setback? How do you handle success? I know that life is not fair, the quickest person doesn't always win the race. But how do you handle that? How do you take that to the day when you can't take that forward to the day when you can't play rugby anymore, and I think that is what the rugby does rugby chisels you do be the best person in life. So I feel that you know, good people makes good players, the big the more we influence the community. The more example we say to the people that come and watch our games that our attitude towards other people, how you treat them is very important.
So I think rugby is a vehicle to change people's lives. I think sport, in general is a vehicle to change people's lives. If you've played basketball, you are in a play netball, you play whatever sport, it's always about, you know, should not be about you, it's always about somebody else. And I think when you take that into your life, it's important. And then again, I always work from the last hour of my life back what is going to be important, really important, nobody's gonna remember the losses, you will always remember the gains and you will be remembered for for the person you are not for the type of rugby player or the type of sportsman you are, you are. So for me that that is the reason why I think I can challenge people to be better than they can be on the field because there isn't a limit to it, they are they decide you as a player to decide where your limits are, and where you if you want to go beyond that. [PB7]
And I think in life, it works like that, I think it's easy to be a participant in a company, you know, just collect your salary at the end of the month and not actually progression, do the work that you want to that the company needs of you and that they will they want of you to be a little bit or to be first at the desk and last to leave is not always the sumps a lot of place to hide in in the world, and still get bite and still get financial benefit of it. And I just feel, you know, the world needs honest people and that's what it was built on up to now and I think rugby is that vehicle to send a bunch of, you know, so many men that retire in the then go into the, into an environment of a work environment and or a different community environment, they can use that success that they've had, and turn it into significance.
Paul Barnett 27:52
You mentioned your faith in that answer. You know, for God's glory hashtag for God's glory, you have talked about your faith a lot, but also how this shapes your view of the way people sent build a sense of belonging to the club, their families, their communities, in rugby players coming and going and coaches coming and going so often how do you go about building the sense of belonging.
Franco Smith 28:20
So that brings me to the second person with his personality and his character. So character is what might define you as a person, I think I mean, so I think you can have a personality, you can taste that personality and you will probably you know, always you will die having that personality but your character can change your personality or character is is something that you've you built through giving some of your sub pieces of yourself in one dream in one belief with other players in that immediate environment. Oh coaches. And I think that is the brilliant thing of modern day professional sport is that for a short period, you are allowed to give everything to everything with the environment that you currently represent. So for me, I think everything was there before us and everything will be there after us but for a short period you have an opportunity to be your best and that is character so I believe you know, we all talk about the the team shot some character or his character, there's some good character towards the end if they were in difficult situations, or if they've pulled off a wind from nowhere, but I honestly feel that through character teams character and freeing the individual character building it changes the personality and the original. Me first mentality and I and I, I think through by by grading the same objective giving the same opportunity to everybody in the whole squat, not just the baseball for 15 players in your team, give the right opportunity everybody give the same attention to detail, the same input to every person, not allowing complacency to come in with winners. Therefore, that short term and with a mission to make you as a person, better player, so you're going to leave this club, maybe you you will, you're going to leave this club being a better player and to be the person and that is my commitment to you. [PB8]
So all coaches and players that I work with from the start, I promise them that I will give my best if you start every week, or you don't start every week, I will give you the same attention, the same opportunity. Maybe not always, in a game, because you can't pick you can only pick 23 Every week, but the effort during the week and the opportunity for you to become the best you can be. I will definitely buy into that. I think if that's understood by the whole team, three of areas, themes that we run during the week, then you create a sense of belonging or want to be part of whatever the outcome currently is. And then obviously, there's a big understanding in world that we you have seasons, and seasons of luck in life. And if your season is at the Glasgow waters, or your season is in any other club, and it's over, then you take that experience on. But hopefully you leave something behind, and you take something with you. And I think that is the way if I can get that message across from the store, then that sense of belonging is created from the store
Paul Barnett 31:42
to powerful, powerful idea, this, this idea of character being built by giving pieces of yourself. And I think maybe just to finish Franco, I'd like to ask you, you've coached all over the world, you've coached all different cultures. You've touched many, many lives and communities as well as you've traveled. But when you do hang up that whistle, how do you hope the people that you've touched and been engaged with how do you hope that they described the legacy that you've left?
Franco Smith 32:12
Yeah, I think the first thing is, I've got the three L's love, love, learn and leave a legacy. That's always the three of the four things that I've enabled as is maybe, and that that comes through enthusiasm, creativity and your contribution. So I've got, I hope people would see as I live off, I've seen the world you know, and through that I've taken my experience along every way I can share stories sometimes I might be a little bit frustrating for some of the guards to hear some of the stories. But you know, you learn through that and to be able to tell a story means that I've lived and that is an important part. The second part is love I we talk about care in an Ikea interact weekend community because it's not always about love, you know, but I care, I care for the environment that gave for the players that sits next to me in the changing my game for the supporters. So they want to see a certain brand I did, when I get up in the mornings that that gets me going and I get when I go to bed at night feeling that I've given this week. So gear is really important. So that's the love part. Obviously, I get it that easily. And I think because I live with my heart on my sleeve, it's easy for some of the players and coaches to follow into make that part of the of this sense of belonging that we've spoken about before. So I literally am open and honest. With my feelings, what you see is what you get. And sometimes, you know, from a coaching perspective, that's really important for them to know that it's authentic. It's not it's not fake, I'm not trying to convince them to do something special just because it's like it's really authentic and learn. I tried to learn something every day or go out of my way to define something to learn. If that isn't a Netflix drama, then I'll do that. But, you know, I've watched the various artists, their stories have been, I want to learn from all all environments that's available out there. So your learners will be important and obviously,
the legacy that you talk about this. It's more about being significant and not successful. I think success is bestowed always is given to people not for their own benefit, but to be an example to others you know and and through success you can see I'm significant So my philosophy stays that I don't want to be successful because I've been double the world when the curry Cup twice or whatever we won. This is the tradition what were the three nations are Good South Africa, but this appointment happens on the other side of the door any time. So that should not influence and deprive you of motivation to get up the next morning and just go again. So, for me, the legacy would be significance, that means away from the game or do not want to be remembered as a rugby coach, I want in the players that I work with, you know, must, must look back when I've done when I've done with him in 1015 years and say, Look offline, something, I've got a better contract of to have worked with him of, I've got a I suddenly have any reference that I can pass down to my kids because I worked hard at a certain stage with a cert with with me as the coach. So hopefully, they will go and influence the communities and long after they've played rugby, still be influential people and that is for me, what I want to be remembered for and legacy whatever what I want to leave behind and therefore, you know, often I have left down South Africa, a long time have worked in, in Italy on various occasions, also as the performance director there and, and that opportunity to, you know, influence these various clubs in the great bit of believing in people's minds and art and to see them grow through it that I think is important, but again, I hope they remember the significant part of it.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 36:27
I think belief in people's minds and hearts and significance is probably a great place for us to finish Branko thank you so much for your time today and for the depth and authenticity with which you've answered my humble little questions. I wish you all the best for the season ahead and I hope you go one step further this year and and get that championship.
Franco Smith 36:48
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it was good to be with you