Frank Dick Edit

Tue, 8/3 9:48AM • 42:42

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

coach, athletes, point, people, life, understand, team, learn, athletics, eddie jones, bit, world, question, frank, event, called, work, paul, pretty, mountain

SPEAKERS

Frank Dick, Paul Barnett

Paul Barnett 00:00

frantic Good evening, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.

Frank Dick 00:03

Good evening to you tufan really pleased to be. Hi,

Paul Barnett 00:06

I'm really excited to talk to you a little bit about athletics, but of course coaching more broadly, because you've got a wonderful resume, which I'm sure we'll get into as well. Frank, have I got to ask a really difficult question just to kick us off? Where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?

Frank Dick 00:21

Well, actually just spent three days with Eddie Jones. So understand you've met before. And he's got a huge amount of admiration for him. And thank goodness, you guys got a fair bit of respect from yourself. And we've spent two three days really working hard on learning and teaching. Looking forward, you might think, well, for goodness sake, coaches at this kind of level, surely, they don't have to know about these things. But you do. You have to go back to basics pretty often to make sure you've got your basics. Absolutely right. Especially if you're trying to influence people's lives. And so then well, Shanda dougla mouth and speaking to them about teaching, and learning and techniques ago with that.

Paul Barnett 00:58

Fantastic, we're lucky we're glad to have you straight from the classroom. So we can pick up a couple of those learnings as well as we go along. Frank, if I could start by name dropping because you've had experience of some they are great coaches there. There's Jeff gowen. is Bill Bellman, this Eddie Jones, the Sir Alex Ferguson, this Lisa Alexander, and there's many, many others. So maybe just an easy question to begin with? What is it you think the great coaches do so differently? That sets them apart?

Frank Dick 01:26

I had a good think about such questions really over the years. And the fact is, I don't think they've all got a common thing about them, they're all quite different. You put a whole list forward of the kinds of things you look for in a coach organization, setting standards, and so on. And you could say, well, these are the critical things aren't different. Yeah, but they're not all equally good at each. And for some of them simply by maximizing one particular area that sets them apart. That's why it's really important way huge privilege ever in my life, to work with some really, really great coaches, because then you see what excellence is like in each of these bits. Rather than just sort of stand back and say, Well, these are the kinds of things you should be good at. So for example, with Eddie Jones, one of the things that I learned very early on from him strongly is just how good he is at questioning and challenging, and almost intuitively looking for different ways of doing things. Right. No matter how good something's been, or how well it's going, he will look for another way to do it. And I think that bit of curiosity, that bit of demand for seeing the world differently, is really pretty important. [PB1] Bill Berman, he was one of the first persons that I was aware of who could blend completely opposing principles in coaching. So for example, there was a lid yards kind of marason method of insurance, who asked At the other extreme, there was Mahalia ego from Hungary. His work on mixed method, and Bill fused these in his particular system when he was working in the University of Oregon. And then of course, there's a guy called Anatolian Thunder Chico a word with a long time ago. And he will give you a very, very simple lesson, not just to me specifically, but to other people that watched him delivering on this. It was about how you should treat technical development, it come to a conference that we had in Edinburgh for the European athletics Coaches Association. And it was a very bad winter the snow had come down and bonded, you're well knows former world record holder Olympic champion in hammer, and he's coached a few of the athletes that to that level, there was going to be a demonstration and he was going to coach some young guy called Chris black, who, oddly enough was a left handed hammer thrower, which made it a little bit awkward for people. But anyway, the people who'd come to the conference, knock themselves around the cage, right? crystal clear the circle itself, there was bonded, shook standing about 20 to 30 meters away. And I said to him through ludmilla, his his interpreters, and can you sit, please say to Anatoly, I'll move these people so you can get closer. And she translated this to him. And then back through her. He said, No, there's no point in coming close quote, you must always do is stand back and see the whole of a movement, because then you will instantly see where there's a fracture and the rhythm, because all techniques have a rhythm. And so once you see it as a fracture, it's very difficult to understand exactly where it is. So then you come in close, and you start from the feet. And you work up what a fantastic lesson. And that that changed exactly how I looked at any techniques thereafter, bearing in mind that mice are a dinosaur generation didn't have access to video footage, technology like that. We had to be able to look at things, observe, understand the meaning, and then work out how to code from there. So for example, the difference in the actual question you've asked that last year, but you've started me on a roll now, I was working with Boris Becker. I was brought into that by a giant in the country that your work right at this moment yon chiriac he asked me to come in and work with Boris and he said two things Frankie work with his feet and work with his attitude. Okay, thanks. Thanks, john. Thanks for the privilege of Being part of this, and then examined about 72 hours worth of fit or film at that time of people like Steffi Graf beyond Borg next year, she was like a cat round the court, the Spanish guys who are good or unclear and so on. And then I worked out what I thought were some pretty clever exercises modestly, but I thought they were pretty good. And I said to I gave them to Boris. And he kept falling over his feet. Because remember, at that point, Boris used to throw himself around the court diving for balls, or the bit was, this wasn't a technique. This was a compensation because he could move his feet fast enough. And so I was getting a bit mad at I thought, at one point, he was just trying to be perverse. And then it dawned on me, I was making the biggest mistake you can ever make in life, as a coach, never look at what's in front of you and try to catch that. Because what you're seeing is a consequence is a consequence of something. What you have to be able to do is go at least one step before and try to find out what is it that's caused this consequence? This is the effect, where is the cause? Then you coach there, then you work back in again. Okay. So I think again, coming back to technical training, and so on, you'll learn so much through your experiences of startups and make mistakes, you make big mistakes, even something as simple as technique[PB2] . But just to finish off the boring story, Yon very kindly took me out to dinner, a very lovely restaurant in London called at that point called mon pianos, just opposite Harrods. And he said to me, Frankie, you've done a good job on Boris's feet. I said, Well, thank you very much. Indeed. Not really, you've done a good job. So tell me about the attitude. What about the attitudes? I said, Well, you know, young, I can't really answer that question myself. But all I can do is give you the advice of Mark Twain, when he said, when I was 18 years of age, I couldn't believe how stupid My father was when I was 21. I couldn't believe how much the old guy had learned in three years. And I think sometimes you have to have the patience to wait for people to be ready for the changes, right?

Paul Barnett 06:56

We're going to get into the long journey. We're going to trace it all the way through through the gold medals and everything that goes with it, but maybe just as question to get some context. Was there a person or an event or someone that triggered this passion in you to coach?

Frank Dick 07:11

Really good question, actually, yes, there were several people who enriched it as we went along. But I was 15 years of age. And I really tormented my physical education teacher to death, so that I could go to the Scottish school boys Easter course at logs into inverclyde in Scotland, and I managed to go persuaded my mum and dad to help me get there and often went, and I can vividly remember walking into the entry of to the inverclyde, which is the center, and this guy was coming down the stairs giant of a guy who was wearing a kind of fallen colored tracksuit. And he was the national coach, Tony Chapman. And then through this course, even though I went in trying to be an 800 meters athlete, or learning more about that you had to as a young athlete, you had to attend lectures on every one of the events to understand what they were, what the techniques were, and what kind of things you needed to know to be stronger there. And by the way, just as an aside, I believe that every coach in track and field should do exactly that. They should cover all disciplines before they move on to specialization, because there's so much to be learned, whatever specialization you end up with, there's so much to be learned from the bits and pieces that are around us in this complex sport that we have[PB3] . But what did that give me? First of all, at the back of my mind, I was full of admiration because nobody's spoken to me like this in life, they will this guy really understood track and field. I mean, I had great physical education, stuff, but they were pretty obsessed by rugby rock was a big Rugby School. And of course, they helped motivate me to get on and do my track and field, but they didn't understand the track and field. This guy did. And I was developing a pretty deep passion for athletics at this point. But before I know it was there was trying to be an athlete already wanted to be the coach, how strange is that, even before it launched into the practical bit of I'd love to be able to do that. I'd love to be able to stand in front of young athletes and be able to help them be great, because I saw him like God, how can a god out there that was it. And that gave me a huge passion. So that Believe it or not, at the ages of 16 and 17, I was actually writing coaching programs and schedules for some of my mates at school, because I really wanted to understand more. And maybe it was something that all athletes and performers out there have to understand. If you're not a serious, dedicated student of your event, you're not going to go very far. You got to actively engage with your own development as early as possible. And to do that, you must really understand almost as much as the coach does, because one day you will know more than the coach [PB4]

Paul Barnett 09:50

Frank this such an impressive list of athletes that you've worked with over the years. I'm just going to reel off some of them. There's Daley Thompson Steve ovett around Sebastian Coe I think his name is that's if I'm pronouncing it correctly. There's Gerhard Berger the f1. Driver, Catarina vit, the ice skater there's Boris Becker, there's Justin rose, the golfer. And there's many, many, many, many more different sports, different cultures, and different ethnicities. So I wanted to ask you, What is this, this experience taught you about the human spirit?

Frank Dick 10:23

Yeah, another great question. I'm pretty sure you're a great student of questions. Paul, I can only say that world champion of this, I think one thing I believe very deeply. And finally, I got this picture to help elaborate on it. Cathy Freeman, before the Olympic Games in Sydney, She challenged the government to change the circumstance of the Aboriginal nation. And she won, she actually too should be affected huge change. She also, as I recall, had discovered the early stages of cancer and her husband that this point, and if this distracted her, and she underperformed, what was the economics going to come from for his treatment. And she was also the young woman who lit the Olympic flame. I mean, can you imagine what that must feel like Paul, the greatest television audience in the world at that moment, watching you in this wonderful piece, to me your symbolism, where you cannot extinguish the flame, because the human spirit goes on, you cannot extinguish it. And with this picture, in my mind, I was gathering over these particular years, but maybe that flame is fueled differently for different people. And what the trick is, the real artists of coaching at that point in knowing your people, because this is fundamental, is to knowing how to fuel that spirit, because they're all different. They're all different these athletes, what motivates them, where they've come from their cultural background, that's changes how they think it changes what they believe in life, it changes attitude, and it actually changes their actions at the end of the day, and how they make the decisions in life. And you're gonna plug into that, you've got to really understand the individuality. Because one size as you will know, in life, or doesn't fit all

Paul

Frank, you talk about coaching, being athlete LED. And in fact, you say, you have got to have this feeling that this person in front of you has totally unique needs. And if you've not got a flexible mind that can find different ways of getting through to this person, you won't be able to feed on their strength and help make them grow. And my question is, how do you maintain this kind of empathy? When there are so many people in the team

that just said in the last answer, you've got to know your people, I mean, further, actually, whether you're in the world of business, whether you're in the sport, world, or sport, or whatever, to first and foremost, if you're trying to pull a team together as you better know them, because when you try to fuse a team, when you try to blend come together, you've actually got this what appears to be a paradox, you've selected for diversity. And out of that, you've got to create harmony. And so actually, I began to sort of think of my job as a coach, as pretty close to being the conductor of an orchestra, you know, you've got to have different people in the team. There's a first violin here, there's somebody who plays a trombone across there, there's somebody who is probably such an outstanding player, they're a soloist, but there might be somebody fresh out of music academy across you. The odd thing is when you're trying to create this harmony and trying to balance one against the other, so that nobody sort of roughs each other up. Just because somebody is a powerful musician, you can't allow them to squash the rest of the orchestra, you're trying to get the right sense of harmony out of everyone bearing in mind that they can't hear each other. When they're in the middle of it all. You might say, Well, some of them do fact, but they can't really hear everything that's going on around but the only people who here really hear the orchestra and hear the team is the conductor, or the public out there who are watching what's happening. So you've got to have the sensitivity to know your people who are there strong, clear, they're vulnerable, understanding, of course, that very seld[PB5] om in life. When you're building a team, do you build a team from scratch, you actually most of us inherit a team, think of football managers, AFL manager, coaches, rugby union coaches, they're appointed as the new coach the team, but this isn't no team is somebody else's. It's been influenced by another mind all together. And you as the coach, having understood the vulnerabilities, and the strengths, how they work with each other, to compensate for each other, and to enrich each other. bearing that in mind, you as the coach have to go with them in the first instance, you have to go with their flow, because you still have to perform out there, even though they're not your people understand them well enough to adapt yourself to address them. Somewhere in the back of your mind. However, working with them, you know where you want to go, and you know how you can make this team the goals that you're after. And you know, what will be necessary to achieve these great goals up there is at that point, gradually, unfortunately, you'll have to move some people on and keep someone bearing in mind in any team. You will need a blend of experience and inventiveness. Right, the new kids come in the block should never dismiss the youngsters because they are going to be the creative new thinkers and so on more energy, willing to take greater risks, but the more established ones are trying to hold a sense of balance of what doesn't doesn't work out there to enrich it to somewhere other shaped the youngsters from their experience without taking the edges off that experience. And I think as a coach, you've got to be able to think that way. And I'm quite sure you have to think that way. Even with your own business people,

Paul Barnett 15:29

we started off this discussion, Frank by you saying you'd spent three days and you were doing some learning and some development with Eddie Jones and a couple of other gentlemen, Vin Walsh. And actually, when I go back and I was preparing for today, what's quite consistent in your story, is your belief that the ability to learn quickly is your only ongoing source of competitive advantage. So I wanted to ask if there was a story, you could share how you have applied this philosophy to one of your athletes. And as a result, they've improved.

Frank Dick 16:02

I think there's two aspects of coaching, I think it would be very generalistic. There's the technical bits, and those are people But mostly, once the athletes is in place, technically, the only real changes you're going to affect and how tried to get people to learn, or behavioral things, people that people skills, and you're going to be pretty honored that with your athletes, the learning portion, sometimes is it's kind of how you can adjust at speed yourself[PB6] . So for example, young boy Cameron sharp, or worked with a long time ago, at the European Championships in a semi final, he'd finished 100 meters. In essence, it finished second to Pavani from Italy. And as he came off the pitch, I really wasn't aware of myself, Cameron suddenly looked at me and said, you're not seeing much no coach. And I suddenly realized, I didn't know what to say, because I'd never at that point in my life, and never coached anyone to get into the final of a major championships. This is my first time. And I just thought I felt empty, because it was looking ahead down the tunnel. And pavoni was with Carlo vittore, who coach Piatra Romania, and I knew he knew what to say up short of that, in the final performance, he goes on to win Cameron doesn't get a medal. Two days later, we've got the 200 meters coming up, I believe you can learn from your enemy, you have to have the humility to admit where you really need to know more. So I went across to him to get a hold of Carl, and over a nice bottle of red. See now I didn't get that right. So Frankie, always look ahead, never looked behind. He said, I bet you were thinking about how well he drove to the semi final. But what you should be looking at is what he's going to do in the final. Well, I must have got some bit of Quick, quick learning there. Because in the 200 meters, he ended up with a silver medal narrowly missing, missing the gold. But that was a big lesson to me or willingness, you've got to want to learn faster, and to learn better. It's not just that you want that in your players, you've actually got to be pretty hard at that yourself. When it comes to the lessons that you have to learn. I think it's very important at the back of your mind. To understand there are only three things you really have to know. One, you got to know what you know, two, you got to know what you don't know. And three, you got to know somebody who does can get them into the team. Because you can't know everything. You must never make an athlete, a victim of your limitations. That's really, really important. And limitations we all have. We all have them. But put your hand up very quickly. When you know you've reached the end of something. [PB7] If you think about Meg Richie, another athlete, the coach, the first discus thrower that I've ever coached, have any kind of note had made went through to be the Scottish champion. But once you got to that level, I was really not competent. Okay, my head coach at this point, I'm supposed to be like Tony Chapman was the superstar, but I was not the person for me at that point. So she then worked with hell, my homegirl from Germany, the Carl Johnson. At that point, she went the rest of the way to become a UK record holder, and so on. So I think there's this awareness of learning faster than the opposition. You've got to know what it is you can learn. And also, you've got to know that point where you can't learn fast enough to look after that person [PB8] who's in front of you. And at that point, you have to have the courage to pass on. So with Daley Thompson I coach daily is tracking events and a high jumper David oertli, who got the silver medal in the javelin in Los Angeles. I coached David but not one single word about the javelin itself. I coached all the other bits or pieces, these training programs, scheduling, peaking on the day and that sort of stuff. That was my field of expertise. He actually got this technical advice from Nicholas never from a world record holder in in Javelin so David give daily advice. On the javelin, we look to art Vonnegut's UCLA, one of the top guys and shot and discus he looked after these two events. Paul Brooks was an accountant but with a passion foot pole vault. And he could take daily the rest of the way. Oh, by the way, that little aside sidebar to the strange people that you meet in coaching. Paul Brooks then began as an accountant, he try other things in life, in addition to his boardwalk coaching, and he started to write things scripts, movie stuff, my flat greets wedding, he was behind that. So now he lives in Malibu Beach, which is rather more expensive than the area's most of us live in. So And finally, there was Greg Richards, another decathlete who was Daly's training pal, Greg was a very good long jump. So there you have it, one coach admitting straight away, I can understand that. If I'm going to make this guy, the greatest athlete in the world, these people have to come on board. My job at that point was conducting that orchestra.

Paul Barnett 20:47

Well, let's pick up this theme of conducting and let's pick up the theme of the pattern, which of course is what the conductor uses. From 1970 to 1979. You were the Scottish National athletics coach. And then from 1979 to 1994. You were the British Athletics Federation, Director of coaching and what I find fascinating about that period when you were in charge of British athletics, is that Great Britain relay teams win a medal in every world, European, Commonwealth and Olympic Games. Now passing the baton looks so simple on the TV, and yet in reality, the baton is often dropped or mishandled. So my question is in coaching and perhaps in life, what are the key steps to take to make sure you pass the baton correctly to other members in the team?

Frank Dick 21:36

Really good point, because you can relate this to succession and business, of course of succession and coaching, in addition to what's happening out there on the field, one thing we all should be pretty, pretty sharp about is up is understanding that the weakest points in any great structure of where they're connected, right, whether it's bridges, you can have the best materials in the world for a bridge for a house or whatever, you can have the best athletes in the world. But if they can't connect, you're in trouble. The key then is working out how you create the connections. [PB9] And I'm not convinced there got it right. Every time you're understand I'm not on the field, bypassing the bank. I'm not the guy who's running around there they are. And the good bit was that the far more difficult By the way, in four by one than four by four and four by four, the baton passing is not quite as critical is important, but not quite as critical because it's visual for most of these guys, but it's non visual. And one of the things I think I had to learn very early from you are pulling teams together before the really the words of Casey Stengel getting the best players is the easy part to getting them to work together. That's the hard part[PB10] . And so in track and field, who has a problem with that? Well, folks, it's not a team sport. For the most part track and field is not a team sport is an individual sport. And it's getting plugged when people who would normally be fighting each other to get into this or that team. You're now asking them with the mentality of a sprinter, which is very, very focused on date. You're trying to get them to come together. Carl Lewis found it very hard to fit into the United States team. Linford Christie found it very hard to fit into to our team at that point is simply perseverance is not an easy thing, to have people to change their attitude to each other, just overnight, what they are not going to spots of you, Paul, but tomorrow, we've got to be best pals. Because we, we depend on each other. It's not an easy, not an easy one. So in many ways, we're simply by trying to get some together minimally. [PB11] At that point, there were no budgets for relays all over that period. Whereas now you might have a really coach, you can bring them in from time to time that didn't exist. But in these clients, one, I did have very good players, very good athletes, but two in the 400 meters, particularly that moved slightly from me controlling a situation although I was the one who had to make the decisions at the end of the day, to actually listening to the athletes and moving with them. So for example, in the fall before in Tokyo for the World Championships, originally, the idea was to run in a training camp, we agreed to Roger black was going to go out first then it was going to be the brains gone dead during Redmond, that it was going to be john Regis that is going to be Chris Sacca boozy. And then john Regis, that was the very first thing, but by the time we got to the event, there was people were getting their own sort of motivations that would or wouldn't work. And Chris Agha boozy, who was a big buzzword, Roger black said, cranky, I can't run less. Well, under normal circumstances, we'll probably have said, Well, I'm not sure because you haven't run less before. But earlier in the season, he'd run a very good last leg for Great Britain up in Edinburgh. And so to me at that point was, of course I have to call the shop that these boys are telling me how best this could work. And so you go with that. So the boys make the decision basically have an idea, but at the end the person will be accountable. If it falls flat on its nose is the coach but at some point, you've got to take the risk of winning your life and go with it and trust. Trust your players because they want to win. That's the bit said before, but one rather more difficult but once people understand that it doesn't matter how good you are Linford on the last leg. If you don't get the bat me, it's not going to work. I don't care how good you are. And these athletes, john rageous, very powerful guy, not only 400 meters, but of course initial, the four by 100 meters. Very proud boy, he didn't like the feeling at that point that perhaps, Linford was putting a little bit too much weight. But in the interest of the team, the good bit was these giant egos accepted that they could come together, and work together. And so that's it. Sticking with Tim for a second on this one, Paul[PB12] , one of the biggest achievements, I think, in my life, and in British athletics was winning the European Cup in 1989. At that point, the European Cup competition I should explain used to be the top eight nations in Europe, men top eight nations in Europe, not every nation that a team endorsed. But we did in this particular case, or two, just to explain the nature of the competition. There are 20 disciplines. For example, in the men's event, you get eight points if your first one of your last one representative from each country in each race. So there you are 20 disciplines, eight points for us, the maximum number of points you can get is 116. Right? What I did was just as you researched me before you come I used to research every team and what we will be worth against them. Because remember, at this point, it was always won by the Soviet Union, or the German Democratic Republic, East Germany, Great Britain with the very best were a bad side. And so I went to, I discovered that we were only 14 points on paper away from the big two. Now, we've never been that close before. And so how do I get over to a bunch of people who never worked together? They're not a team, they're individuals, how do we get over to them, that they can make the difference individually between putting the flag at the top of the flagpole or leaving it on the floor. And so I tried this today, and tomorrow, you got a 14 point mountain to climb is 14 points because there's a difference between what you're worth on paper while the opposition is a mountain because it can only happen today. And tomorrow. You can't come back next week. This is what that means is that your youngsters and the team for the first time a new was one point on paper and you can turn it to two, it actually makes the same difference. As you guys who are more established who were five points, and you can turn it to six. And as for Yulin for Christine, Cole, and Jackson, all I expect from you is eight. So don't get me so I could see the eyes, narrowing down and going out the door looking to see what I'd written down for them. And then I could hear them muttering Yeah, what does he know about it? But as Actually[PB13] , that's exactly what I wanted to happen. I wanted people to understand that by getting to the top of their own mountain, that would make a difference between putting the flag up there or leaving it on the floor. And all I was asking for was one more point each, that's all I needed. Well, at the end of the two days that the men had the trophy, the women the highest number of points ever recorded by a West European female team at that point. And I went to the celebration afterwards. And when I went in the room went silent, the champagne all over the place, people hysterical Oh went quiet. I said, Okay, it's been drawn to my attention that we only won this trophy by eight and a half points. I'd like to know who's to blame. And they all put their hands up. And I said, that's the way it is, guys, that is just the way it is you can climb your mountain. And when you do that, you'll change the world. And so that was my effort and trying to change a team of people who were totally individual never really communicated much to each other to get them to understand that together, we can do this.

Paul Barnett 28:41

Frank, I've heard you talk about the poem, The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran in many of your interviews, can you share with us why you believe it's so pertinent to coaching?

Frank Dick 28:50

Well, first of all, in general, let me preface this by saying every now and again, there's a book or something in my life, and I'm sure yours that makes you think I get it again, I get the meaning of this bit of life. And at that point, there were two books that I was reading one was Jonathan Livingston Seagull, which I would advise every young athlete in every coach to read as better as seagull with ideas beyond the station right before when I was studying in the University of Oregon, somebody pointed out to me, you should read this book, The Prophet said, Oh, not a great way to read the Prophet because it will change what you how you think about things. And so it is the kind of book you and it's a poem, a long poem, you can read it put inside an hour. And it's about a prophet who's leaving a land and people realize this is like having a webinar, they realized, we better ask him all the questions No, because we may, we may never see him again. And so they asked him about love about joy about sorrow. And so then they asked him about parents and children. And the answer he gives is the parent paraphrasing the parent is to the ball as the child is to the arrow, and that was about parents and children. But I suddenly thought because I keep on looking for for Other ways to explain what coaching is given the roots to grow the wings to fly all these things, keep on looking for other things. And I thought, how beautiful is this? Because it's dead, right? You've got to give that your job as the coach is to give you your young charges, power and give them direction. But your job is to let them go. And that's a tough one for a lot of coaches. The very idea that in the year, the very idea that you've got to let them go, that's the bit and so and why I love the book is that it poetic, but it gives you a different kind of vision. gerbrand gives you a different kind of vision of what these things mean in life[PB14] . And as I come back to these two books at that point in my life, they actually changed my life, they changed how I was going to think about things. And I think we should always be looking for books like that, before a movie like that for a poem like that. Something that suddenly makes you sit back and think, yeah, I thought I knew about this. But it doesn't. It comes back a little bit to like to Eddie, yeah, I know, this is the way you do it. But is there another way in everything in life poor doesn't matter whether you're win, lose or draw in everything in life, when you come away from it, there is always something you could do better, or something you could do differently. And oddly enough, wrapped up in there is the notion of success and failure in my world is a great great quote by I think it's Kevin Whately an American authority in human performance, where he says failure should be your teacher, not your Undertaker, as well as a quote for a great line. That is, because you see if you're going to change things, and like, Paul, if you're going to push beyond the edge, to go into new territory to try to do to change the world, try to change what you do yourself, the chances of failure are pretty great, because you've not been there before. It's an uncomfortable ride, isn't it. But the key to that is fail fast, and learn faster, right? If you're going to go for this, get out there, take the risk, get into these uncomfortable bits because they will be uncomfortable. And if you fall in your nose, get back on your feet fast, learn even faster, and move on because you will fail. So failure is not your enemy at the end of the day is something there that you can use [PB15] all but by the same token, as Alex Ferguson taught me very early on, you're going to be able to manage success and failure success. I mean, I thought success was success breeds success as an easier thing says no, you got to remember this success can derail progress. If you're not careful. You begin to believe in your success, you begin to be complacent. And you think that that's good enough. But it's not a great story about that. Right. Alex Ferguson was coaching. It was like Manchester United. And it gets to the 1993 season and they win the Premiership and England in football. He knew that no club had ever won back to back premierships. He brought in Gary Pallister, the team captain, he said, Listen, son, this was preseason training, as coaching staff and I have been keeping an eye on training. So I know, we've determined that two of the players think that that was good enough, is what do you mean, boss? Well, we're satisfied you're satisfied. That's good enough to who are the boss? Well, it's not for me to say so you're the team captain, you better keep your eye on this. So you can imagine as the season goes on week after week, Gary comes back said, Chief, we don't get it, we can't see it. But keep your eye open son because of there. You've got to be vigilant every moment of that. So it comes all the way through to the end of the season and knew when back to back championship, right? Gary comes in nurses, you'll have to tell me now guys, who are they says there was nobody son, you must stay vigilant when you had success. You can't get away with that too often for but I think that is actually a good message for your staff in life for your colleagues, for your coaches, as a head coach for your athletes, how you handle these two situations is really important. And you have to have a sense of strategy for that.

Paul Barnett 33:52

Frank, if I could take you back to the tenements in Lee to that young boy that was running up and down the street to raise some money so he could buy a pair of spikes. Although his dad was going to buy one spike, I understand and you were going to buy the other. If you could stand in front of that young boy now, what advice would you give him

Frank Dick 34:08

was say, listen, son, this is the way his life is hard. There are no shortcuts in life to success. You've got to be able to make the choices to take the hard way. The way I see life balls is just a series of crossroads, and you've got a choice which way you go then. But never take the easy way. There's no shortcut in this business of trying to be successful in life. There's no shortcuts at all. And if you keep on trying to take shortcuts, as john wooden said, If you keep on working on the tricks of the trade, you'll never understand the trade. And that's the way I actually see life itself. [PB16] And that's what I'd like that young lad to understand. And to be honest, by accident or whatever. That probably happened to him quite a few times and his way through, running up and down these stairs, oddly enough at a benefit but I got fitter than any of the other kids in the year when it comes to power sprinting up hills. So when I got the pair of shoes, and I was looking at them, I suddenly realized, I don't think people are going to give me things, it was wrong for me to expect my dad to give me that. And that would be my message back to this kid. Listen, that's the way it's going to be, do not go out there and expect things to happen for you, you've got to make them happen. You've got to own the journey yourself. Don't look for any free rides, there's no entitlement out there. For goodness sake. It's tough. And if you've got to learn how to be tough, climb the mountains, other people would never dare to climb, you know what happens so often in life, boys, you have success, you get to the top of your map. And some people think to themselves, well, that's it, just [PB17] keep going. No, change your mouth. Because the opposition that people you're fighting with, they are looking at you. And they think they've worked out how they can get to the top of mountains. So they try to imitate you. And believe it or not, unfortunately, very often, the imitation is better than the original point you got to be looking for is another mountain and a tougher one. Why? Because every one of us, no matter our age, in life, no matter how great you'll be, no matter how tough things have been in the past, you're going to get tougher in the future. And the only way to learn how to claim the tougher mountains, is to look for mountains, other people wouldn't dare to claim, keep changing them. You cannot leap from the top of one mountain to the next, you have to go back down again, and start climbing and be comfortable with that put in the hard yards. And the chances of getting to the top are going to be great, you know, you're going to fall sometimes below had a big user, well, you know, you're gonna get hurt, but you learned you learn how to heal yourself at that point to keep going. Then one day, of course, you stood at the top of the mountain. And while you're up there, you suddenly it never feels the way you thought it was gonna feel. It doesn't. You know, we're doing what we expect when we get up there. And we've got a cup in our hand or we're middle around the neck, but it doesn't feel the way it's always going to feel. And again, for the real mountain people do it to life. When they get to that point. They say call that a mountain, show me a real one. And then they go for the next one. And I think that's just the way it is poor look for the hard way. Don't expect it don't have any sense of entitlement in life. Look for the next tough one. And keep going.

Paul Barnett 37:11

I'd like to ask one final question, if I could, Frank, and I'd like to transition from that young boy in leaf all the way through to the person you are today. And before ask the question, one last great quote from you, Frank, if I can, and you say what you are doing is not only preparing them, for the very obvious thing of trying to get to deliver a lifetime's best, or a world record, or an Olympic gold medal. But you're also trying to make them better than they were yesterday. And you're using this experience to draw out lessons that will help them in life. So I wanted to close by asking you, what's the legacy, you hope you've left as a coach.

Frank Dick 37:49

First of all, I'd like to say you've got a few more years to be working on for that legacy might be you asked me earlier about learning faster than the opposition. And the truth in life is you learn faster together than you do apply. One of the things in coaching is that we're supposed to knock the spots out of each other. We're supposed to do that. But we're competing. And what we do is we attend courses and we listen to fantastic webinars, and we pick up lessons to help us be better coaches. But what does that do for coaching itself, because we belong to this bigger thing called coaching. And I think I like the notion of minutes the title of a book, but the book doesn't mean at the same way. I like the idea of cooperation, we should compete with each other for so many months in the year. But for the rest of the time, we should be able to cooperate to work together for the advancement of coaching. Let me tell you a story about that way back in time, just became the Scottish National coach. And there was a situation where we had two fantastic women's clubs one and two were in recent areas, ladies were in Glasgow called Mary Hill. And the chief coaches are George synchron, Edinburgh and Jimmy Campbell. And in Glasgow, their life ambition was how to beat each other in the Scottish championships to see which club would get the most medals and so on. And that was that was the definition of success and what winning would be at that point for most of the athletes who were successful there. When they went to the equivalent of the British championships, which is the women's three A's at that point, they would get squashed. At that point. I think there was maybe seven and a half percent of the British team women's team was Scottish. I had this conversation with them about cohabitation. And so they did actually begin to swap notes with each other. And I promise you within four years, they're the best part of 20% of the team of the UK team that led me to be a champion, for example, as you know, got the privilege to be the president of the European affiliates, coaches associations, European athletic Coaches Association, and the idea is for coaches to come together to learn from each other and there's no cap score for the North America, Caribbean Central American coaches as ESEA are working on to create awesome Which might be interesting for you. In Australia, I'm trying to reestablish the Oceania that is conscious Association working on reestablishing Asia and also Africa with a view that ultimately, these area culture associations and any national coaches associations will fuse into a world alliance of coaches to share each other's knowledge. Now, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, when I wF the International Association of Athletics Federations, when they moved towards world of clinics, a very brave move by seven his staff Helen Delaney, principally as the head of governance, they shifted the governance structure. But at that point, there was no specific identity for coaches. And so I had a good chat was said, and seven is people that are talking about the leadership, they are 100% bind coaches, and understand that the line that I keep on throwing out is athletes make excellence happen. Coaches make excellence possible, right? I'll just keep throwing that in people who said, and said the big champion for coaching, and he said, Okay, what do you think we could should do about it? So what was Charles van cavani, the Dutch coach, head of Dutch track and field put together a concept called the Global athletics Coaching Academy, the idea being in terms of bricks and mortar, there will be kind of a Global Campus of Institute's all working together to help raise coaching standards at the top end, initially, also, we have particular Academy courses for for coaching developers, for Coach leaders and coaches on for top practitioners. And the essence of the Academy is to look after education, regulation and coaching because that doesn't exist at the moment, supportive coaching in their endeavor, and representation of coaches. And so that concept, I'm hoping at least give them the thing moving in life. I want that concept to be something that coaches will live for the future coming all the way back to me learning from coaches going through, I want them the coaches in the world to understand that if you work together, you will raise coaching itself to a much higher level and the benefit of that to the coaches and as a consequence to the young people that the influence will be events predict that sounds like a pretty significant mountain, you've got ahead of you to climb.[PB18]

Paul Barnett 42:19

I wish you all the best as you set up towards the summit. It's been a privilege to spend an hour or so with you tonight. I thank you very much for your time.

Frank Dick 42:28

Well, thank you, Paul, and very best wishes to everyone who's been privileged to see the the webinars that you've already put out there, and I hope that mine some or other will fit in with these other guys.

Paul Barnett 42:40

Thank you, Frank.