Gary Kirsten Edit
Thu, 9/9 6:56AM • 36:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, team, cricket, game, environment, players, sport, indian, people, performance, skills, leader, india, win, captain, question, bit, individual, started, theater
SPEAKERS
Gary Kirsten, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Gary Kirsten, Good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Gary Kirsten 00:04
Yeah, Paul, thank you for having me.
Paul Barnett 00:06
Very excited to talk a little bit of cricket with you as we head into the southern hemisphere summer, and all things related to Australia and the impending series. But maybe I'll just start with something really simple, Gary, where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today,
Gary Kirsten 00:22
I'm in Cape Town, South Africa, I spend most my days working on one of my businesses, which is called coach Ed, it's an online coach education business, there are five of us that are running the business. And it's a huge amount of fun I get to, I get to kind of do coach education, which is something that I'm educating myself in every single day, it's great fun to still be a practitioner in a sport that I started as a four year old, have been very fortunate to have 17 years of playing and another 18 years of coaching in it. So kind of the better part of 35 years of being a professional in in a sport that I just love doing as a as a youngster.
Paul Barnett 01:05
But I can't wait to go on a bit of a journey with you over those 35 years. And just hear about all the great insights and people and experiences you've had along the way. And maybe we could actually just start there, because you've had some experience with some really great coaches. There's people like Duncan Fletcher, Eric Simmons, and of course, Bob Woolmer. And so maybe I could start by asking you, what is it you think the great coaches do differently? That sets them apart?
Gary Kirsten 01:31
For? That's a great question. And it's something that could probably take quite a bit of unpacking, and I think every coach probably has has different strengths. One coach would be a kind of one size fits all, kind of person. For me. I think Duncan Fletcher, for example, was a great coach for me when I was a youngster because I probably needed a father figure my my father passed away when I was 17 years old. And he kind of came into my life when I was about a 19 year old. So it was he kind of took on that father figure role. He was gonna direct in his leadership approach towards me, he saw, he saw that I had some talent as a creator. And I think he gave me some good direction in terms of what I needed to do to get to the next level. Eric Simons was a little bit later in my career was in well into my 30s, not far from retirement, his leadership style was more around a friendship was more our relationship, his priority for me was for him to set up an environment that allowed me to thrive. So I think these different kind of types of leadership can be really relevant for an individual at certain phases in their lives. But if I had to unpack it, and so what were the common denominators of it, it was all built around just really good relationship. And they were really good at it. They were fantastic at just taking care of the relationship[PB1] . dangan Fletcher, he used to find me like four or five times a week as a 19 year old cricketer. And he would always asking me a question about something in my game, or about a network that I had to get to, or what do you think about our plan for the next game, and it was just non stop communication. And then I've just saw Eric as a, who was the other extreme, really, as a, as a friend that I could trust. If, you know, I could tell him that I was feeling very vulnerable before a game and feel comfortable that it wasn't gonna leave me out the team because I was feeling vulnerable. So I think that the strength of the relationship was really important.
Paul Barnett 03:19
Gary, I had this great quote from you. And I'd like to read it to you before I ask the question. You say, coaching is a leadership position, which requires an in depth understanding of how teams and individuals thrive, and what sort of environment is needed for this. And I wanted to ask you, was there a person or experience that helps you form this belief?
Gary Kirsten 03:40
Now, I think it was a set of experiences more than anything. I think it was the journey that I went on having the positives and the negatives. And I think that's why I'm particularly passionate about coaching coaching for me is you dealing with human beings, there's so much of an art to hurt rather than there's a set of principles or set of rules that you need to abide by. I've been fairly well researched in a lot of the great sports leaders of our time, and really take a lot out of each one of them one way or another. That could be a value to me as a coach. But the one thing I realized in doing the kind of researchers every story was a different story. I mean, the way Alex Ferguson led Manchester United compared to the way Pep Guardiola led Barcelona, are very different, but very equally powerful stories, which made me realize you've actually got to formulate your own way. And my way is going to link up to my value system, it's going to link up to my personality and my style of leadership.[PB2] Justin Langer and I who are good mates would be very different leaders, it will actually be fascinating to see if we could work together. In fact, I don't think we could because we have very different leadership styles. I think we have a huge respect for each other's way. It would be very different. I think, in many ways. I'm finding that I guess for me, a lot of my philosophy was built along my own personal journey and experiences as a player and I always thrived in an environment where there was safety[PB3] . And someone that really backed me and believed in me, because I wasn't Matthew Hayden, who walked on water almost I mean, he, he just believed so much in his own ability, or Virat Kohli believes in so much in learnability, I was actually quite a vulnerable player who needed a lot of love and needed information. So I needed the coach who was going to provide that for me. But I also needed a coach who brought in a bit of structure into my life. So kind of a bit of both. So when I found those coaches, it kind of probably started to formulate the way I wanted to set up environments where there was, there was safety in the environment. But there was also enough leverage to be able for you to thrive as an individual. And I've tried to do that I do a lot of short format coaching now in the T 20 leagues and stuff like that. And typically, you'll only get six weeks with a team. So your as a head coach of a team, you have six weeks, with your players, brand new players. That said, you get six weeks to put this team together and to go win trophies. And it's incredibly difficult task. And it's very difficult to build those relationships up very, very quickly. So what we do is instead of focusing on that we tend to focus on just okay, well, what environment can you create very quickly. So we try and set up these environments where you mix it up with a lot of fun and enjoyment, but at the same time, there's a fair amount of detail in the environment as well, if that makes sense. So there's no cut and paste rule, every environment is very different. And every time I going to new, join a new team, it's okay, how do we put this together? It's very, very different and challenging, but it's good. It's good fun.
Paul Barnett 06:38
Gary could pick up on something you said a minute ago, you talked about safety. You mentioned it twice, actually, why is safety so important,
Gary Kirsten 06:45
because I've been also in the cricket space. I mean, I don't know if other sports are like it, but I presume that are it's a very egotistical place. And it's kind of almost taboo or not wise to share vulnerability to share with the rest of your teammates or with your coach that not understand what you're saying, or I'm too scared to make a contribution, in case I'm saying the wrong thing. Or it's a stupid question. Or it's better not to say anything, because it's not my responsibility anyway, you're the leader, if the team does badly, you're the one that's gonna get fired. So I don't have to say anything, I'll just look after myself. And I'm really badly at home and I'm sick, or I'm out a form. And I don't think you should pick me the next game. And we're not conditioned to operate in environments like that. And I just think if you can get close to that, as a coach of a group of people, where individuals in your team can really be fairly open around just where they are as human beings, and you build some trust in that I think you then allow that expression of talent. And that expression of this is who I am as a human being. And if I'm in this team, because you think I've got some talent, and you allow me to express myself, in my abilities as a human being in a very powerful way, I think you can achieve a lot. Yes, there are frameworks that we all have to work in because you're part of teams. So it's not just about this is not your own show, and you just do what you want to do. I think there are frameworks, that it's wonderful to see that real expression of an individual in a team where he's really thriving in that environment, because he can be who he needs to be within the framework of what the team requirements are[PB4]
Paul Barnett 08:20
very under your leadership, the Indian cricket team became team India. And that mindset, I think persists to this day. You've talked about safety. What are the other key elements of either values or behaviors that are the trademarks of high performing teams,
Gary Kirsten 08:38
I think that each type performing team will each team it doesn't have to be a high performing team, to be honest with you. I think each team has a performance flow, the way of doing things becomes a non negotiable. And I think the leader is the one who leads that and who drives that process. And I think you start to build a narrative within the team, that becomes your story and the team story. And I think when that narrative starts to create some laugh about it, when there's when it's got some feeling, and it's got some real heavy test behind it, then I think you can go places with that narrative. [PB5]
I think what what really changed for us with the Indian team, we shifted our behaviors. We sat together as a group of people one day, and we said, okay, the Australians are arriving at the number one test team in the world, do we think that we could become the best cricket team in the world. And when we looked around the room, when we looked at each other, as individuals, there was enough skill and ability in the room to say, there is no reason why we can't be the number one test team in the world. And then we said, well, that's great, because a lot of people can do that. You can do that the Indian team because you have enough skill in the room to match the skill that's arriving on the shores in a few weeks time. But things need to fundamentally change in this environment for that to happen. And we started to articulate what were the things That would need to shift that would allow us to start building out a process to reaching our abilities as a group of people with the skill set in the room. And we realized that there was actually a lot of tangible stuff that we could shift the way we practice the way we spoke to each other, the way we took responsibility for things that weren't necessarily our primary role within the team, we started to talk about the name on the front of the shirt, not the name on the back of the shirt is more relevant to the individuals. So there was some really kind of stuff you could hold on to, we wrote this all down. And it was brilliant, because as the players are writing it down, and co creating what they thought was the way forward for us, as a group of people, it afforded me the opportunity, then to have some words that I could use for the next three years that just became daily words into the team environment. So what did we do? We built a value system around how we wanted to live every day of our lives in the Indian team. And that was around consistency and behaviors. And then we went and acted out on that every single day. And then we reflected on that not every single day, but most days. So are we started to even debrief our practices, did we have a good practice or not a good practice? What worked? Well, what didn't work? Well? What did you do? Well, what did you not do? Well, so we started to become very detailed around everyday living. And then we we took it a step further, where we started to understand the Indian people, how they live their lives, and what were the things that really made the Indian people thrive? And what are the things where Indian people did not thrive in? Or where did we see Indian people not at their best. And we started to build that narrative into the team as well. And then we looked at India at war. And we said, when is India been, it's based in a wartime situation. And we started to understand how we respond in competition is massive, kind of journey we went on to then kind of narrowing our focus in terms of what we wanted to achieve as a group of people, the language ended up becoming very simple. Because daily, we just started doing these things. I mean, our preparation improved about 100%. We had guys that never ever took their betting equipment down to the nets, we had them hitting 100 balls, at every practice, we started to do things very differently to the way they had been done before. And I think the guys started to enjoy that because I started to feel there's a bigger purpose game. And I think all teams thrive when they operate, not teams, organizations, groups of people that thrive when they feel connected to that bigger purpose. And I think we were able to create that within the Indian team, the bigger purpose became more relevant than the name on the back of the shirt.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 12:45
Well, team India Go on, and they win that 2011 World Cup. And there is an amazing picture of the team carrying you around the ground, which you don't see every day, Gary, but what caught my eye on that picture is Virat Kohli is pointing at you when he's mouthing something. He's very emotional when he's saying it knows, reading about it afterwards. And you were saying, you know, you say that all players need to they need to play for someone. Why is that?
Gary Kirsten 13:12
I do think we play for someone that inspires us. The question is, how do we inspire? I think there's a lot of different ways that a leader can inspire people. But if you can get to that space where you are inspiring people, I think it's a very powerful place. Because there are there are that concept of playing for someone I think is a very powerful concept.[PB7] I remember, I certainly played my cricket for Duncan Fletcher at the beginning of my career. And why did I play for him, he put time into my game, he believed in me back to me, I saw him as a father figure. And I knew that when I was betting, he was watching leaders in different ways that they can definitely inspire players to a higher level of performance with other dad for whatever they offer that team. I'll give you another example. When I was with the South African cricket team, I thought one of the last ways to potentially inspire the team is in physical endeavor. We've got physical people, as you know, Australians are there as well. And I was going through a phase in my life where I was getting involved in running marathons. And fitness has always been a important component for me as an as an athlete when I was a player. And even when I finished playing, I still believe that physical fitness is really important. So I embarked on a series of running marathons, and I was doing it while I was coaching the South African team. And I'll never forget, we had a test match. I don't know who it was against, but it was in Cape Town. So it was a home Test match for me. But I planned I think the fourth day of the test match I plan to run a marathon that morning. So I kind of said to the system coach, would you mind warming the team up because I'm not gonna be able to get to the ground in time. I can't run that quickly. But off I went for this marathon. And it started at about 530 took me four hours to run it finished at 930, I kind of arrived at the ground, about 45 minutes before play started. Were in terms of the field, I was pretty exhausted by then. And as I walked on, you know, the whole team kind of applauded, that I'd like finished this marathon. But in many ways, it wasn't something that I did. Specifically, it was just something that I was doing as a physical endeavor for myself, but I know that it would have inspired one or two guys, because they said, Hey, the coaches just got up this morning, he woke up at 530, he's gone random for four hours, and then he's gonna watch us bat and play cricket, we better be up for it, to be able to go out and make the performances that he would expect of us. So I think there are many smart little ways that you can do it. I used to be inspired by coaches who used to work out in the nets, because I just thought they put massive effort into our games, I want to make sure I deliver on their effort in match situations, it is really important for for players to see that individual who they look up to. We are currently in either an interesting relationship because he started his international career when I was coach, and he was a young guy done really well as a junior, I remember having a played in One Day International that he was, I think it was the second or third game of betting really well. And then just hit an off spinner straight down too long on water for crease up for 38. And I, I kind of looked at this. And I said, it doesn't match up for me. So I've decided to have a one on one with him the next day. And I just said to him, were you playing international cricket? Now this is not Indiana 19. And what you did they yesterday is not acceptable. It's quite simple. I just said you got to knock out both for one and you got to go get 100 he still reminds me of that conversation. But I think what he was meant by it as someone who's prepared to come up to me and kind of take me on in many ways about the way I was playing. And I think he that reminder was triggered him to say well Hold on, I'm here to score hundreds not to get a fancy 38. So I think that was the connection that we had,
Paul Barnett 16:59
when you were preparing that team for the 2011 World Cup. I understand that the team didn't talk about the prospect of winning. Instead, the focus was all on the process. So I wanted to ask you, what advice do you have for others on balancing the anxiety of expectations with this motivational aspect of goal setting?
Gary Kirsten 17:19
Yeah, I mean, I think you're gonna get a lot of different opinions on this. And I just recently watched the documentary called The Last Dance. I don't know if you've seen it with Michael Jordan. And you look at that approach about fronting up to pressure and bad expectation of performance. And the narrative is we just good enough, we just got to accept the fact that we're good enough and just get on with it. I think in many ways that one can deal with this. I mean, our approach that we had was Sydney, my approaches as a leader is always I think the best performers in the world are able to separate the result from the actual show that they're putting on, which is the performance, when they in the show they in the show, they're not in the result. And I think a lot of anxiety and expectation. Maybe they I don't know what they call it, the anxiety gap comes from joining the performance with the results. In other words, what you're doing in that moment of theater is matched up to whether you're going to win or lose. And I think that's where a lot of athletes don't reach their full potential, because they start to fear what that result might be. And then it plays out in the theater. Certainly the great sportsman that I've worked with cricketers that I've worked with, when they in the theater in the theater, they they're to put on a show, okay? And whatever happens happens, and they don't actually really care what happens more times than not your real high performers. They kind of know that they're gonna win more than they're going to lose, because they're flipping talented. And what they've realized is that if I can really express my talent to its full degree, I'm more times than not better than others. And if they don't succeed on a day, they don't really care because they know that they're going to come back and they're going to, they're going to win the next time. So it kind of able to separate that out when they're on show they're delivering on their skills[PB8] . And isn't it beautiful to watch a team or to watch an individual just deliver on their skills without any worry about winning or losing, just deliver that skill sets and it is beautiful to watch. And sometimes some of the best sport that I've ever watched from an individual often doesn't result or doesn't end in in the positive result. I watched the Wimbledon final between Federer and Djokovic, on the same day that England beat New Zealand and the World Cup cricket final. Federal was sublime. He had to match points. It was beautiful to watch him play tennis. I wanted him to win every bone in my body, but he didn't win, but he was in performance flow. So we need to appreciate the fact that watching sport is also just about watching the theater around it. And for me great sportsmen deliver on that theater. And that's why I watch sport. And that's why I'm in sport. I'm not a slave to the result. You won't win more than you lose. If you're good enough, simple as that, and your processes are good. And you know, you organized and you detailed and you prepared everything that we have to do in sport, you will win more than you lose. Sport will tell you that you're not going to win everything. And that's why we are involved in sport. And that is the beauty of sport, you're not going to win everything. So let's engage in the theater. Because that's actually what it's about. I don't want to watch a sporting event. While no one team is going to beat another team easily. It's irrelevant. It's not theater for me, I want the theater, I want the competition, I want it to be close. That's what I thrive. And that's what I live on. And that's why I love sport. And I think sport teaches us, I think it teaches a lot in failure as much as it does in success. And as long as we can keep sport and unknown in the result, we've got theater, and that's what we're going to hold on to[PB9] . But let's stick with
Paul Barnett 20:53
success for a little bit yet before we get to the failures. Because 2011, India's finished, and you head over to coach South Africa. And straightaway, you defeat England and you become the number one ranked test team in the world. Now I may get this wrong. But when I was looking at the just the makeup of the two teams, the South African team was multi racial and religious in a way that perhaps the Indian team wasn't. And I'm wondering, did your coaching have to evolve to take into account those differences in the South African team,
Gary Kirsten 21:25
I believe as a coach, you need to evolve without a doubt, every environment is going to ask something different of you. And you need to understand what that environment requires of you. A good friend of mine once said to me coaching, you sometimes have to be a chameleon, where you have to be different things to different people all you have to be a different person to a different team. That's not to say that you have a complete shift in your leadership style, I would never be an autocratic leader ever. But I think I would learn on the road that this environment requires me to be a little bit more direct, or it requires me to create more instinct in the team or create more flair through the environment or requires a bit more detail and organization. So I think we need to just be able to isolate as coaches a little bit within those requirements. I think the one danger that we can have as coaches is to take our style and our approach and think that for it worked in one team that it's going to work in another team. [PB10] So I was very mindful when I went from the Indian team to the South African team. What does this environment require of me, essentially, two very different environments, the Indian environment, they need a little bit more structure to their daily approach, they needed a bit more organization, they probably needed a leader who wasn't necessarily going to tell him what to do. But a leader who was going to get them to fly in formation, the South African environment is slightly different. It's quite rigid environment, South Africans love to be told what to do, and they'll just get on and do the work. And I've tried to free the space up a little bit, I should try to say to the guys listen, I want you to take on the responsibility of making a decision in a big moment in a game because I beg you for that decision. And I wanted to create a bit more instinct a bit more flair and a little bit more looseness around the environment, which the South Africans didn't really like to be honest with you. In the test team, we had a very organized, experienced bunch of players who would just 10% off and all are focused on for those two years that I was with the team was that 10%? And what was that 10%? I think it was a peg in the ground. And that peg in the ground was we should be the number one test team in the world. And then how do we hold that peg in the ground for two years with the skill sets that we had in the environment that we've created. So there was a lot of stability in the environment already. But it just required that constant checking in checking in checking in, this is where we are this is what we need to do tomorrow. This is what we need to do the next day because the South African team was guilty of kind of lots of highs and lows in their performances. And I think we we try to, instead of doing this trying to just kind of get onto a pathway of performance that was consistent. And with the skill sets that we had in the group. As I said, there was no reason why we shouldn't have been able to do that. And we did achieve it just by creating the awareness around it.
Paul Barnett 24:20
Or you've spoken a lot about the importance of mental skills and psychology to help athletes. And of course, you took Barry Upton with you to India, he was a key part of your team as your mental conditioning coach. I wanted to just ask more broadly, Gary, if there's any top tips or anything you've learned about mental skills that non athletes could apply in their everyday life.
Gary Kirsten 24:41
First of all, I think we all need some form of training around that we train so much around our physical skills, and then we get confronted in a situation with the highest of pressure and we don't really have the tools to manage it. I mean, I just think back to as a player To The World Cup Semi Final against Australia in 1999, in Birmingham, where it was the highest pressure game that I had ever been involved in, and there was the magician Shane Warne knocks over Herschelle Gibbs. And I can see he's kind of delivering on what his done as a high performer, which was incredible. It's like his moment in the sun. And yeah, I am as a as a player who's played a lot of cricket against him, it's matchup two best teams in the world. I'm meant to be at the same level of mental skill that he is at. And I'm saying to myself in the Met, I'm not there, I've had no training to get there. I don't know how to deal with this moment, I've now got to make my own decisions around what is going to be relevant and not relevant to do. And I ended up making a mental error in that game that cost me my wicked, and Sydney led started the demise of our innings. But I just felt that if I'd been a little bit more mentally astute in that moment, it might have really helped me navigate that performance better than what I did. [PB11] So in trying to answer your question, I think it is such an important component of every sportsman. And I just think that there's no holy grail to it. I don't think there's a one size fits all, I don't think that one person's got the magic over another person in those skills. I think a journey we as we all have to go on, I brought Petey Petey, on to join me with the Indian team because I wanted him he had quite an impact on me as an individual. He is a qualified executive coach. And what he what he did for me was, he helped me build awareness around my game and around who I am identity as a human being. And I think it was a very powerful piece for me, because it gave me perspective in my life, and really helped me in my performances as well, that doesn't necessarily work for everyone had really worked for me. But I brought him on because I thought, I'm not going to get vulnerable with me because I'm the coach and they must be able to get vulnerable with someone, they must be able to unpack with someone. So I said to Petey, you've got to for three years, you got to do one on ones of the players, and just allow them to share, I didn't realize how hard that job is. He added a lot of value to me as a coach in that time that I had with him and certainly had some significant impacts over the players. Probably His most notable was with us Singh, who ended up being the man of the series in the World Cup 211. But you Rose was pretty much not good for the World Cup. Believe it or not, he wasn't in a good space. And his form was bad. I was on that selection panel. And I think he was the number 16 pick out of 16 players nearly didn't get picked and ended up being man of the series. And I really credit Petey to the effort that he put in to help. You've rushed through that journey to get him ready for that tournament. And that Adam had a massive influence on him.
Paul Barnett 27:50
How do you help your own kids deal with high pressure environments?
Gary Kirsten 27:55
What a great question with difficulty Chase. I think the toughest leadership position I've ever been in is a father and parenting Oh, man. It's difficult. And then you've got to throw and then you've got to mix parenting with coaching. It's a recipe for disaster.
Paul Barnett 28:12
You're doing okay there, Gary?
Gary Kirsten 28:14
Yeah, listen, I think it's a great breeding ground and learning ground for coaching. That's for sure. Both my kids have said to me in sessions that I've had in the Nets with him because both my boys are keen cricketers. And one of them said to me once dad don't coach me was one comment he made. And my other son made the comment to me, Dad, you're talking too much. So there were some great lessons around understanding coaching. I think probably the greatest lesson I take out of that is, as a coach, I'm a facilitator. I'm not an instructor, I'm a facilitator. The quality of my coaching is based on on the skills that I have as a facilitator. So what is facilitation? As we know, facilitation is being curious. It's asking the right question, and it's trying to create a relationship with a player himself is learning and the player himself is coming up with the answers about their own game, and the player themselves becomes their best coach. And I'm very excited about coaching in that space, because I think it is incredibly skillful, to not instruct and tell someone what you see, because they might not know the information and you do that to flip it around, and to facilitate their learning in such a way that they find out the answers for themselves. [PB12] And it takes time, but I'm doing I'm practicing with my sons. The exciting thing is certainly my oldest son is 17. Now, he can unpack his bowling technique, and he can unpack a match strategy for 20 over game, terms of what he wants to do. He's now starting to work out how to analyze the opposition batsmen and how you can bolster them and he's starting to formulate decent game plans around his own bedding. So and all I've tried to do is just be really curious. Ron is learning. And it's a very exciting way to coach,
Paul Barnett 30:03
if I could just maybe flip this over and talk about leadership from a different angle. Because in cricket, you had this situation, of course, where the captain leads on the pitch. And the coach really steps back and isn't as involved. You've had experiences and great captains, I mean, probably one of the best ever was in Estonia, and you worked with him when you were in India. And then you get to South Africa, and you had Graeme Smith for a short period, and then AB de Villiers. But from this experience, what advice do you have for others when it comes for to selecting the team leader? Or a leadership group within the team?
Gary Kirsten 30:35
Yeah, that's a good question. So too, those are two fantastic leaders. And I think in very different ways, incredible leadership qualities, Ms. For me, very quiet guy, not a huge orator, but incredible presence as a human being walked his talk lead by example, a warrior style personality, I'll get out and in the front lines, and I'll take on the heat. And that was an enduring quality I think guys wanted to follow and they wanted to be with him. He also had early success in his captaincy career after winning the T 20. World Cup into a seven in South Africa as a young captain, so there was a presence about him. Graham, very different, a great orator, quite a big guy. And assuming God termed as a player, a strange technique, but got to resolve and also walked his talk and lead by example, and was prepared to front up to pressure. But I think he had great presence because Gods wanted to play for him, they really felt that he was the main guy in the environment. But I've been involved in 20 over cricket over the last six or seven years. And I'm finding it because of the use of data in the short, shorter formats. And there's a lot of off the field research that is been happening amongst analysts, and coaches that are giving teams a competitive advantage. I mean, the margins are so narrow in the shorter formats, you have one bad bowling strategy, you could lose a game one bet over you could be art if you get the wrong matchup. So the coaches are getting a lot more detailed and organized around game strategies. And I feel there's a great opportunity now for coaches to take on a more relevant role on the field. But only two ways to do that. One is to get the captain's to buy in to the strategy conversations, which captains are quite reluctant to do because they like to go with their field and the way they do things on the field. And when you're talking about Test cricket or earlier cricket more times than not that works. But the captains that are embracing a more detailed approach to game strategy are the ones that are coming through are giving an example own Morgan, England captain is a big advocate for good game strategy preparation around the stats and the and the data. So I think we in changing times where I think the coach is going to take a more important role. And I think the coach is going to be able to communicate with the captains on the field with game strategy as well. So we're going to see a bit of a change in that I think in the modern game, which is not what cricket is used to cricket is still used to the captain running the show on the field and certainly Test cricket. That'll be true for a long time. But as we start to take some of the learnings out of other professional sports, I think the coach is going to take on a more relevant role, which is very exciting for me. I'm loving that fact. Gary, you've
Paul Barnett 33:14
been very generous with your time now just like to ask one final question if I could disclose and for ask that I'd like to play back a quote of yours to you say I don't coach to win trophies, I do it to add value to people's lives. So I can help a group of people move forward in terms of where they are. So in closing, I'd like to ask when you do hang up that we saw in the distant, distant future, what's the legacy you hope you've left as a coach.
Gary Kirsten 33:40
So I don't want to leave a legacy because that would be very arrogant to think that I'm big enough in the world to have a legacy. So I love the concept of adding value to people's lives with the knowledge and understanding and learnings that I've taken[PB13] . That quote is absolutely true. I'm not in coaching, to win trophies, although I know that I'm measured by that. So I feel the pain when we don't win as much as anyone feels the pain because I know that I am measured by the win lose column as we should be in sport. But I actually don't do it for that I want to be in the theater, I want to be in the drama of the event. [PB14] And I love being engaged in that whatever the result is, is the result and I accept, I accept that. I know that I've got a good team and we've we've done a good job in our prep a really good chance of winning more games and we lose and any coach in cricket that wins more games then they lose buys himself time. And when you buy yourself time, you can have more of an influence over a team, one individual. So the only reason Paul while I'm in coaching is to buy myself more time.
Paul Barnett 34:49
Again, Gary, I'm not gonna let you off the hook. Can I challenge you on that? Yes, we obviously haven't met before today, but I think there's something in there about humility and vulnerability and I think Those are not traits that are common. particularly well, from the knowledge that I have of speaking to cricket coaches. I don't think they are particularly common traits. And so I think that you've opened those up as traits that can be effective in a leader. And I think that may be maybe a legacy that that leaves on a little bit.
Gary Kirsten 35:20
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Thank you. And it's not a challenge, by the way. Yeah, I think the amazing thing is Paul, as the older I get is that I've accepted learning more and more, the older I've got, and I don't know if it's the same for you. But it's, it's incredible how we are more open to learning, the older we get. And maybe it's because our perspective is that we've achieved success along the way. So you're not chasing the successes much anymore. Now, I'm not a 35 year old, just retired coach, and I got to prove to people that I can coach, I've got to tell people what I can do to be a good coach. I'm much more accepting of where I am. It just opens oneself up to learning which is amazing.
Paul Barnett 36:00
I think there's a degree of self confidence that comes from having many, many failures, and so therefore, you're open to keep learning. Yeah, Eric Kirstin, wonderful to spend a little bit of time talking with you today. Thank you so much for your time and good luck for the upcoming season once you're back coaching in India again. Yeah. Thanks, Paul.