Gordon Tietjens Edit

Wed, 9/29 10:46PM • 35:54

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

coach, sevens, players, game, new zealand, rugby, win, blacks, suppose, team, years, tournament, training, beaten, push, jonah, lost, athletes, played, belief

SPEAKERS

Paul Barnett, Gordon Tietjens

Paul Barnett 00:00

So good intentions. Good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.

Gordon Tietjens 00:04

Thank you.

Paul Barnett 00:05

Where are you in the world today? And what have you been up to so far,

Gordon Tietjens 00:08

I'm in Toronto, which is the central part of the North Island essentially. And I'm here and I'm actually a brand ambassador for a sports company called Legion. Being a brand ambassador, I suppose I'm out there selling great sporting product apparel. And I suppose I wasn't intended that way, because it's such a good product. And we have so many sporting, I suppose clubs within the buy of plenty here where I am, and I'm well known and the buyers trade deals, probably opened up a lot of doors for this, this global brand. And it's called legionnaires going really well. And I'm really enjoying it was mainly done on mixing with, I suppose sports people, and you're looking at that and in sport all my life. And so I'm just continuing on nights, a lot different from coaching. And I'm really enjoying that lesson tensor pressure, which was only for so many years as a coach, particularly kh in New Zealand and, and now I'm sort of my own boss. I mean, are they just doing what I enjoy. And I've been in sales for a long, long time, I was just by engineers as a as a sales director and a general manager for 38 years. And I finished with them just before Christmas, and all the time was waiting at Beijing. So I was also the breakevens coach for 1994. So so I've been in sales, and I suppose it sort of got back into sales from a sporting apparel, selling that sell enjoying that,

Paul Barnett 01:27

well, I can't wait to talk to you actually about your long history coaching, we are going to touch on the start in Bay of Plenty and all the way through to coaching the All Blacks sevens World Championships at the Olympics. But I'd actually like to start by talking to you about some of the people you've met on that journey because it really is a bit of a who's who of the great coaches, particularly from New Zealand, which has produced some wonderful coaches. So I can see that you've interacted with sir Graham Henry, sir john Kerwin, Sir Alex Ferguson, and of course, Steve Hansen. So perhaps I could start by asking you from this perspective, what is it you think that the great coaches do differently?

Gordon Tietjens 02:05

Well, I've always said you never ever pretend to be someone that you're not it's always about being Yo and you learn from lots of coaches. Every coach is different[PB1] . And a sense of me to Alex Ferguson is an example I took my myobrace Evans team to a Manchester United training session. I got to spend a lot of time with him to find out what he saw in players how he identified the players. We talked to David Beckham at the time. Does he do what does he provide that Manchester United so he told me how much a professional athlete he really was how hard he really worked as his fitness was just quite extreme. In a sense, he was the fittest on the side. He worked on his game, you'd see him after training, which we saw on week 17. We saw him after training out there just doing corner after corner. So it wasn't because of who David Beckham was his real professional athletes. And we got to meet him afterwards as well. Like So Brian Lahore, another one, I felt his biggest quality was around humility and being humble. And I, I challenge anyone in New Zealand to ever say about the suit, the lights or Brian or that no one ever said a bad thing about sir Brian, he commanded so much respect, the players loved him. And therefore that to me, was a great, great quality. And I think it's a query every coach should have is a suit everyone's different. [PB2] And you look at Wayne Smith, someone when he was a head coach didn't enjoy the head coaching role in moved down to an assistant role. After a couple of years as a head coach of the All Blacks, he found it really hard to talk to the players. After he left the drop, someone's really found that really hard. And technically, probably the best coach in the world has strict around his technical and technical appreciation of the game of rugby, where you'll get some other coaches Steve Hansen's another one a great coach thinks a lot about the game is his own humor, I suppose it's a dry, witty sense of humor. But again, he was someone that commanded a huge amount of speed from applies. And he got results.

Paul Barnett 03:58

So Gordon in 1992, you head over to Scotland as the coach of Bay of Plenty, which is of course where you're from, he started coaching there, and you go over to compete in the oldest sevens competition in the world, a competition that's been running since 1883. And you promptly win it. And I want to do ask what did you learn from that first victory that then stayed with you as you went forward into coaching the All Blacks,

Gordon Tietjens 04:19

quarter ronak ready because meros receivers was born. And for us to go and win that bet turn win is by of plenty, knowing when we left with little touch with by a plan to set some standards around honestly, having that wiki that pushing my players nutritionally making changes with a lot of these players that we're promoting Modi Will my side and of course, those changes we were flying over the other side of the world to compete and probably in one of the greatest sevens tournaments. So we were going there to win it. We had this attitude we worked tremendously hard back in New Zealand. We prepared really well and I learned a lot about preparation, like push the players to the limit. Then and then of course, we went over there and was one game at a time and we won that particular tournament. I remember the commentator McLaren from Scotland I always remember famous guys just as first names actually just started trying to remember what that was, but I can't remember but he was such a figurehead was in Scotland. He commentated my trainings. He interviewed me afterwards, he wanted to know about every player and your side and, and every player at that time, it's a wonderful skills. In my brave, we've beaten Auckland convincingly back in New Zealand and our local sevens tournament, we'd won a lot of games. So we went over there with a lot of confidence. But again, I bet myself with the players that I have that particular time to go on to win five games to the winner of Melrose cap, which was something that I'll never forget. But I think that's what got me I suppose the New Zealand coaching role was way 1992, we won that particular tournament in 93, I traced your legacy Evans beating and Nana 994 went on the coaster all started my coaching career with New Zealand. So what it really taught me I've put my changes with the rise at that particular time, the buyer plenty side I made changes, they adapted to those changes, they all bought into it. And with that came a lot of success.[PB3]

Paul Barnett 06:17

So in 1994, you take on the job as the old black sevens coach, and you hit up to the Hong Kong sevens, and you beat Australia in the final. In fact, that team goes on to win three titles in a row. And so I wanted to ask you, what were some of the first things you did when you took over that team that feel that success,

Gordon Tietjens 06:34

and the Hong Kong sevens tournament used to be the only tournament, I suppose on the calendar year. for international teams with the Hong Kong adherence, I was one tournament. And of course at that particular time, I had the luxury to select top players top All Blacks at that time in 1984 was Jonah Lomu, his very first year as an 18 year old playing for counties and Palmerston North and the choice to select long from that particular side, I had Eric rush, I was lucky enough to have a great, great captain and went on to coach my side for 30 years, well kept on my team for 13 years. So in that, and 1994, I knew for three previous years through talking to Eric, that her tune up in Hong Kong a week before the tournament, and every night, I go to the ball and beer, which was one of the hotels and have a few drinks. And so it wasn't as serious thing is, I suppose everyone perhaps thought and I made changes, we weren't going to go to the bull and bear, we were there to win the tournament. And my trainings were quite legendary. In a sense, they were ruthless, I worked in particularly hard prior to getting over to Hong Kong. And then everything else in Hong Kong was technical, technical, keeping them away from that bull and bear hotel, or pub or whatever you might want to call it. Obviously no fried food I made, they had to make massive changes, because that was my coaching style. And I had Eric rush that bought into that as the captain. And he was one of the guys that loved to go to the bull and bear that loved us fried food. He made those changes. They all bought into it. And of course we tax a success. And that was the start of my coaching career and started Hong Kong, but they bought in to what I believed that which was really, really important.[PB4]

How did you get them to buy it sounds like there were some pretty ingrained behaviors.

Gordon Tietjens 08:15

So yeah, it's about obviously, building trust. And of course, getting their respect. I worked hard myself as a coach in terms of I'm really into fitness, I get out I run around with them on the training field, I work particularly hard or look after myself in terms of my nutrition, I do drive health and I I saw that as a real ingredient. I mean I I saw a nutritionist and New Zealand before I took over the side. And I got to the talk to me about nutrition and the importance of and what it can do with your teams. And because sevens face it is a hugely demanding sport, physically. and mentally. It's a challenging sport. And if you're not a fit side, you'll never ever make it and then the scene around sealants. As simple as that the conditioning is brutal, but my trainings have always been harder than any game they'll ever play. And I believe that's why we won so many World Series, so many tournaments.[PB5] And the number of games we won last player of the game last day of the game was incredible. And I put that down to the levels of things. And also, obviously if you're very, very fit, you make good decisions at important times. So they bought into that[PB6] . And of course winning Hong Kong in 94. In doing it again and 95 and 96 nothing changed and within that team you're I must remember I had a Christian cologne come through. And a journal Loma Glen Osborne here crash Dallas Seymour, they were senior players, but they bought into exactly what I wanted. And I'm a real believer that any player has come through the seven system that's gone into fifth gains that always perform because I've reached certain fitness levels that that probably never ever reached before. And it's made a difference to the game.

Paul Barnett 08:11

Paul Barnett 09:50

Couldn't you say that? Winning starts with the creation of a culture. So if someone was listening and wanted to turn around their culture within their organization or potentially even establish a new culture Where would you tell them to start?

Gordon Tietjens 10:02

Right? I think that comes down to us and the onus is on a coach is, you've got to have the right people. So you have to recruit Well, it's about selecting the right people that are going to buy into the culture that you believe is going to be successful for your team. And I've always selected on character, and character should shape character and coachability work hand in hand. And that, to me, is vital. So once you've selected your site, that a believer and I have always put down culture about our boys, rugby and sport in general, particularly team sports is all about the team, together, everyone achieves more, that to me is there's not one person that's going to continually win your tournaments, or you rely on to be the point of difference about winning games and winning tournaments, etc. So we are everyone, together, everyone achieves more, and having a belief and all the players within your squad, that can be the point of difference. And that to me, then you go team in the unity factor, it's about family, and it's the culture you have to create, you need that family factor that border, do they respect you as a coach. So unity is also important that I put down the patient, every one of my players has to be patient, for whom they represent and what the GC really means to them. And of course, the discipline factors in two areas I having that work ethic, which they must have it also, not just aside from the worker that that making those changes, which we talked about around nutrition, Rayleigh woolen the want to achieve, and of course, he put those for the team, the unity, the passion in those disciplines together, that creates a culture which is second to none. But you can only do that, after you're done. Obviously, point one and that's selecting the right players that can get out and perform for you and again, to buy into the culture that you believe is going to be successful.[PB7]

Paul Barnett 11:50

Gordon, was there a person or an event that ignited a passion to coaching you?

Gordon Tietjens 11:56

Well, I've always obviously loves sport. I've looked at it certainly coaches, different coaching styles, because we are all different. [PB8] But I've always thought I started off as a finished completed playing player, a lot of first class rugby, played over 100 first class games. And then I obviously wanted to get into coaching side coached on the coalface with some youngsters, some under 20s. And then straightaway, not long after that I was then I have played the provincial side and fifteens and also sevens at the same time. And that's how that's sort of built out. I sort of looked back and I've there's been some wonderful cases over the years that we had a Ron briars, when I was a ball boy, and many, many years ago, that was a great, great coach, I always looked up to him. He always I had so much respect for her, like the time went on to another guy, Eric Anderson, who I had respect for. So every coaches I see it's different. And I see I wanted to be me, but I just had an employee one day, I wanted to be a coach, I wanted to get out there and, and set some standards that I believe could be successful for the teams that I wanted to coach and it was 15 to immediately 50s To start with, and then sevens. But really coaching is all about your people skills. That's how you communicate.[PB9] And I learned that I believe the business that I was with, with by engineers, I learned so much from my engineers in a managerial position, which I had 120 staff that worked under me for a number of years as well. So basically, my rugby teams were basically my staff that they injuries, if you like

Paul Barnett 13:27

Gordon in 1998 rugby seven starts at the Commonwealth Games, and you lead the New Zealand team to the first four gold medals from 98 to 2010. So imagine when the sport was included in the Rio Olympics in 2016, your expectations were pretty high. Now, the team didn't win the golden fact they didn't medal at all. And you've spoken a lot about that. So I don't really want to go into the drivers of that result. But what I would like to ask you is how did you help the team handle that result, given they had such high expectations and maybe even a sense of entitlement that went along with their underperformance in Rio, we always

Gordon Tietjens 14:02

use got to be tough. I'd be talking to the New Zealand Rugby Union for a long, long time. That is it as a country we needed to centralize as a sevens team, because all the teams were catching up with that particular time. We went to four Commonwealth Games, we won four gold medals. We went to Scotland, and we lost in Scotland I think was 2014. We got beaten on the final by South Africa to achieve a silver medal status. And always remember coming off after that final and they went into a holding room for the middle ceremony. And my players were devastated. We never lost at the Commonwealth Games. And we went in there and we got silver medal. I was proud of my sight. We still had a chance to win and the last play of the game a cure you and he dropped the pass from two levels and I still remember we had an opportunity from a turnover to still win again so ever go to win another gold medal. And it wasn't to be mmediately. Afterwards I went up to a pure he felt devastated such a young player who dropped a pass he felt he shouldn't call it goes back to what I do. Talk about I talk about that team factor that we all buy into. We support each other. And because in that holding room before the medal ceremony, it was like a funeral parlor. Honestly it was and we're broken because I've never been beaten as a Commonwealth Games and here we are. I said be proud of what you've just achieved fellas. The game was on a knife's edge. We weren't good enough. We were beaten by a better team. We get us out we go to the come at the Olympic Games. And we we get we strive to win gold. We one of the favourites to win gold. We lost the first game against Japan. And it's the evenness of sevens. cerebral Williams snap does actually standard Scott carry mine he does shoulder. Joe Weber who went on his replacement also did his shoulder. So I lost three of my top players, and the very first game but we still put ourselves in a position to still win gold. We played Fiji in the quarterfinals. We live Fiji at halftime, we got beaten, and one of the last plays of the game to lose that particular game to Fiji who went on to win the gold medal. And that's how close it can be and and i still proud of I still felt I had the team to win that goal. And it wasn't to be in that sport. And that's something you know, when you pull the players in you say guys, you just look you can all you want to do is none have gone out there. Everyone went out and emptied the tank. We just weren't good enough. We didn't execute when we needed to make critical parts of the game. And we weren't good enough. And, and I think I always look at Roger Federer and I talk about this a lot because in 2008 he played the greatest game of Stephens tennis ever seen at Wimbledon, it already won about five or more turns. He played Nadal on the final winter five sets. fantastic game, the Dell beach theater. I saw the interview afterwards, Federer was actually visibly on TV cry, and I'll always I'll never forget this and there was a writer after this particular interview. Well, it said Adele won the greatest game of tennis but Federer gained in defeat he showed us that losing although painful, does not necessarily failure cannot be when you've given it all you have and that says that all you can go out you're losing hurts, but it doesn't necessarily means it's failure. And you've got to tell your players that we just weren't good enough. [PB10] On Sundays. We are Sunday's we're not in those big moments. I mean, you go to Olympic Games, very first Olympic Games. First time your regime has ever been to the Olympics. And we weren't good enough to win a call and we weren't good enough to middle they've just come back from another Olympics, beaten and the final that gold medal still eluding them. But it's rugby it's sevens. Who would have thought South Africa wouldn't even get a medal you think about England and you know some of those those bigger nations Great Britain nowhere near it was Fiji New Zealand, Argentina and NATO campaigner of sevens rugby is now but as a coach you always have that belief you still can win with regardless of the firepower that you have, but at the same time you can still be proud of the weather prize gone went out to perform and just doesn't happen sometimes. And I suppose that's how we measured as coaches it's pretty tough but we've got to have big shoulders and you take the good with the bad.

Paul Barnett 18:05

So Gordon, I'm Australian, but I can reflect on the fact that New Zealand is one of I think it probably is the most proud sporting nation on the planet. What drives that sense of pride. That is the envy of so many other organizations around the world.

Gordon Tietjens 18:21

We've got so much depth and New Zealand right we are sending our DNA and that's that's really where it's at. And and because I talked about patient before and what the black jersey means for them and it means so so much so much support in New Zealand I mean it's I mean when you coach the all the sevens team doesn't matter what country you're going into whether you're in Japan where you're it's through Asia or in China, they are looked we looked upon as Gods obviously because the All Blacks have such a name right throughout the world. And of course it's with a comes pressure whoa of course but I really enjoyed and was proud of the fact to be coaching and all that experience and we've had so much success over the years and will continue to do so I'm a real believer in that because we do things well over here but the support always there and I suppose sevens rugby and we talked about culture before we talk throughout even if I talked about China China loved being involved in the seven steam as hard as what it was the conditioning methods that were that I had and what it did for him as a rugby player. You know you can imagine the distractions going into hotels for China because he was such a famous person that he just loved the environment of our sevens team. He loved the jersey the jersey mean everything to a tongue and boy but he wanted to wear the black jersey never lost on your legs humans team ever when I won three Commonwealth Games sorry three long Kong's with me, he won a World Cup in 98 with me and want to come with games in 19 year 98 as well and World Cup sorry and South America never lost. And of course, it's just assets. We just were blessed to have So many athletes in New Zealand that can apply themselves to the game of rugby.[PB11]

Paul Barnett 20:04

Well, let's talk about Jonah Lomu, actually, because I've got a great quote from him about you. And I'd like to read you the quote, before I give you the question. He says, I wouldn't have achieved half of the things that I have done in my career, if it wasn't for kitchens, the attitude and the fortitude of thinking that he had that pushed me to where I got to go. So I wanted to start ask you, because your focus on physical training, which you've talked about in this interview, is actually legendary, and follows you wherever you go. But I wanted to ask, what have you learned by pushing people to such extremes? What did we learn about the human spirit and what it's capable of?

Gordon Tietjens 20:39

Nothing's impossible. I do talk about mental toughness. And I do put it down to attitude I then it comes back to, to the people you select, and all the players that have never been a skillful, you know, they're going to empty the tank for you.[PB12] Jonah was never ever as fit as what I wanted as a coach. He never got to those levels. Then we saw later on in life, that Jonah actually had some some kidney issues. And he was quite sick. But he pushed himself. And it wasn't uncommon for God to come up to me after a training site says can you come do a session with me on the road, so he do extra sessions, he get left in some certain activities of training. But he always gave it his very, very best. And what it did for Jonah, it, it got on further than he ever got. But he never wanted to leave his mates down. And he pushed and I moved Jonah from the forwards out to the wing, and the game of sevens. And because I thought why take the ball away from him. And all of a sudden, he's the guy and it was 180 kgs. They had a 1.51 scanning team for acceleration, incredibly 4.71, standing 40 and he had 109 kgs to carry with it. And he was just certainly made nervous. And he was just great. And so me pushing players like to get the best out of them. And and I've had many prayers over the years. So right, I would never have gotten this far. Because I never realized I could get this fit and push myself as much. There are some prizes yet there was so much right we tell them that we'll never push themselves, our user. It's funny, I use a paraglider analogy, when I'm assessing plants, and you've got red, yellow, and green. And because you never want any reach in your team. There's lots of yellows and yellows are the ones that I've got all the talent in the world. But you never know what you're going to get out of the yellow Sunday, he'll give you the performance of a green and are a minefield to coach I can assure you, but then you've got your greens and the greens are all about intent. Greens are all about the ones that are going to empty the tank for you that are mentally and physically tough. And that's what I've always over the years, it 85% 80% greens on my sides and with that, that gives your team's consistency and performance, which gives you quite a high winning percentage, right? So again, it comes back to the players so they get to die for the jersey. They're gonna give it their all and of course, those were the challenges but I believe getting the breakdown of the athlete and it's really talent that don't go anywhere near the seasons program. [PB13] Christian Kalin was amazing. Everything has heart rate with through the roof at times. The support play was tremendous. His fitness there was unbelievable, he went on, in my view to become one of the best fullbacks in world rugby that we've ever seen a new vaccine fifteens scored 18 tries and 96 in Hong Kong, and people now can still remember him running across a deep warrior being chased by these feagins to him right out through the middle of the post and putting my second measure I ran away for an unbelievable try. And that was Kristin cannon launching himself to the world, I suppose. From the sevens team is a guy that's gonna come along and be one of our best ever full legs. So Calvin probably didn't realize how good he can be. But what sevens does now it gives the athletes an opportunity to express themselves on a rugby field, you can see the state, the acceleration, the pace, and now you don't always see that 15th now, you don't know how quick an athlete can be. You don't know you didn't realize yet. And then the app can beat someone beautifully on the outside got a great fan, and they get challenged defensively, and sevens because you can't hide. So again, I also go back to the benefits of what segments can provide any athlete. And it does it gives them that exposure to go on to, to obviously to to greatness and times like color and alignment.

Paul Barnett 24:21

I have another great quote from you. And I'd like to read to you say in terms of coaching, it's always about your people skills, and ability to communicate, and also to express as a coach that you care for the people who are playing for you. There's the last part, this quote that caught my eye and so I'd like to ask you about the concept of caring, and how your focus on this aspect of your coaching evolved through your career. Well, I'll

Gordon Tietjens 24:44

give you one real example. I always remember when I picked both of you Annie brothers Rico Jani and Akira Kalani and my site, but two youngsters Rico was 17 Akira was 19. So as a coach, how do I get the best out of these two players that are shoe environment, which can be quite intimidating sometimes coming into this environment where I've got a coach that's just ruthless about fitness and making changes in their diet and nutrition. So the very first thing I did was go and meet his mom and dad at the Olympic cafe in Auckland, and I spent an hour with them to find out about reco to find out about a cure. And you've got two brothers that are chocolate cheese, one that's hugely motivated and Rica, and a cure, which I suppose Rico had to get a cure out of bed to go to training his youngsters. So one pushed himself a lot harder than the other one. So I asked her, I had a meeting with them, within the pluses I saw was, I actually cared about Sandra and his children, Rico and Akira, his two boys that were going to come away to tournament on the World Series, Rico, just leaving school, Akira just out of school, one or two years, and the professional era, because I cared about them that meeting that I had an hour with them. And Auckland was about building trust. And knowing that I would look after those boys, when they're in my sevens environment. Amazing, really, and I believe those boys knew I had the meeting with their mom and dad, because I built that relationship. And I built that trust, and the frog got to get the best out of those two boys[PB14] . And they both performed hugely for me. And to be fair, if I were back to that color analogy that I talked about, Rico has always been a green, or a curious being a yellow. But he's now our green, and look, probably the best number six and world rugby. We all make mistakes in life, whatever that might be off the field sometimes which has an influence on whether we get selected or not. But those boys have made changes and both of them as young as they are. And the number one all black team as we speak but great rugby players. But that meeting that I had about building trust and caring for the athletes, confirmed everything that I believe in[PB15] , I mean, China's dead. And at times jerrica Tucker, I can go back a long time, where I see that as a point of difference sometimes and getting the best out of the athletes because you care about

Paul Barnett 27:00

we talked earlier about Eric rush, being a great captain. There was also DJ Forbes and Carlton honor in there as well, you've you've had a couple of good captains along the way. And what does this taught you about the importance or shaping a great Captain coach relationship?

Gordon Tietjens 27:15

It's those important meetings that you have and what he is to select on. But all of those players that I've mentioned that different captains in their own right, different just like coaches, different Captain styles, coaching styles, and what do they offer, but they every one of those players had had so much respect from the players that they were capturing evenly and this eerie attitude towards training there. [PB16] Obviously they bought into exactly what we want and what I wanted as a coach, what we when we hit those important meetings, but they lead really well here at Rush. He's still playing for me at 38 years of age, hugely inspirational, commanded a huge amount of respect every one of those other players DJ Forbes, exactly the same. He played was actions and what he did on the rugby field, Calton, Anna was ruthless, around attitude, the players had to have the right attitude. Always remember him saying bar up. And when we're under pressure, the games that are knife edge challenge analysis stood out amazing, just great, great leaders. And there were many leaders in the entire time. [PB17] When I look at it in terms of DJ for Metro Parkinson one year, it was hard, brutal, and he led by the way of his actions on the rugby field. And he pushed them to training. And I needed that assistance from my leaders to push those players sometimes because they were some of my sessions were brutally quite

Paul Barnett 28:38

researching and reading about you Good night, I sense that you have a very strong sense of belief. In fact, I would say your belief is often much stronger than the players that you're leading. And so I wanted to ask you what do we learn about building belief in others that might be applicable to other people that are listening?

Gordon Tietjens 28:56

Yeah, I saw her said nothing before like nothing's really impossible. I always had a real belief It doesn't matter what team might be coaching, who we were playing against. We even from player's perspective, that he was better than the player that you're up against, regardless of the name and the stature of that player that you're up against. And building that belief in them. Some players needed motivating your players that needed motivating and assurance I suppose, and confidence to get them up for games. [P18] And if someone like della Seymour, he was so motivational as as an individual, he knew how to motivate and get up so I always knew I was gonna get out of Dallas See, just a couple of little words of the year of the odd player. That was just enough ran out of self belief factor that you're good enough. That's why you're in the side because particularly young players Joe Weber was a young player coming through could step could break could beat guys like nothing but when he got up to my level to the always sevens level, he thought he was just there as a distributor, but I wanted him to express himself and have that real belief For what he was doing at secondary school and what he was doing a provincial level he could do on the international stage. And that's the belief that you give them the ability for them to express themselves. And we make mistakes, but you learn from your mistakes[PB19] . And that's suddenly, once you talk to them about that, we do a lot of reviews afterwards[PB20] , we do a lot of we get out there, obviously, the the laptops and we read sits down, and they do, obviously look at the performance, which we all do, they come and they produce a memory stick with only everything they did, and whatever certain game and we go through it, I get them to talk me through it. And there are times that things I should have done, what they did well, and what they didn't do, but I'm always been a coach also that you always talk about the positives, and you turn those negatives into a positive sort of way. Because everything is always about a 10 if we drop a pass your reasons why you dropped that particular pass, but then you move on to your next job and so that that self belief factor and, and to work hand in hand, and, and obviously for me, just a little word to someone before going out to a game, going to the bus in the game. It could be a training, just instilling in a lot of self belief that they can go out and be the best that they can be.[PB21]

Paul Barnett 31:16

And how do you maintain your belief in the face of what must be rather intense media scrutiny? I imagine rugby stops the nation in New Zealand. Is there anything that you do or are found to be more successful in perhaps blocking out that negative noise? Yeah, I

Gordon Tietjens 31:33

always said when I obviously was the media were a was like a I suppose they attack me in a sense after after losing an reo like he can imagine I used to attract more media when you lost them. And when you want. It's just a fact of life. Because something that I that I got used to. But I was always confident that I given everything in terms of preparation, planning to get up to win whatever tournament it might be. I looked at different ways I looked at different teams and how they shaped the weeks I looked at what was best for our week. And then we I believe the management team and myself, we've done everything we possibly could for the players to go out and perform[PB22] . And I was always really sitting ready for the media at the completion of if we weren't successful in a certain tournament, and certainly Rio. Well, I mean, we had media everywhere and of course, but I was happy to take all the media. And I wasn't about to be associated blame on anyone in the team or anything. To me, I took the onus of what happened. And I but I, as I said today and I still make myself I believe we did everything within our power as a management team for that team to get one goal and we weren't good enough. And I'm happy with it.[PB23]

Paul Barnett 32:45

Gordon if I could take you back if I had a time machine and can take you back and introduce you to that five year old who was playing barefoot on the frosty grounds of returner with St Michael's knowing what you know now what would you say to him,

Gordon Tietjens 32:58

I mean I had a love for at the age of five we came from a family that was associated with with rugby, and gay those those mornings on a frosty morning in Rotorua, playing bare feet. And Amanda never thought that rugby would be such a big part of my life. But I love sports in general. And at that time sapphires throwing down a young kid and obviously I had a bit of talent then when I was five and six and coming through and I had the support of my parents at that particular time as well. And to me, I'm a real believer that if you love the game that you're playing, then you push yourself. You learn to understand in terms of everything is about perseverance, and having the passion for something that you love doing. And you've got to make lots and lots of good choices in your life growing up as a youth. I think those choices are important moving forward. And my choice also was I want to be an all black and if you wish to have that assess what you aspire to be.[PB24] And as a youngster you we all do they all look at the All Blacks my dad would take us on all right test. You'll never forget as a rugby player you wanted to be there all right and play out in the backyard with my twin brother, my sister and my older brother. We're always a different we were someone was always someone was aspiring this player and in a way we went continually to me of the drive and the will and the wants years a youngster and you love it in just keep working hard.

Paul Barnett 34:27

Maybe just one final question if I can to finish on. I know you're still coaching but I'd like to ask you when you do finally hang up there we saw what's the legacy you hope you've left as a coach

Gordon Tietjens 34:39

legacy that I'd liked. I think I'd like to lift it for particularly for the game of sevens in terms of what how it can create such a great great pathway for someone to go on to achieve his dreams [PB25] of 847 players that have come through your black seven team that have gone on to become All Blacks is some net net sevens that we had the legacy hopefully the drive or at least tough trainings mentally and physically challenged them that they've made them into what the prize there are today and obviously you get a real buzz when you hear some players said on record that have said sevens change their life and I'd like to think that sevens rugby in general because I've been such a driver of sevens legacies there that that's that creates that pathway to go on. To be the best you can be an array as a rugby player, and to achieve your dream.[PB26]

Paul Barnett 35:36

I think that's probably a great place to end. Thank you so much as Gordon it's, it's Monday morning here in Romania, and you've got me all fired up for the week ahead. So thank you so much for your time today.

Gordon Tietjens 35:48

No worries, fine, no worries. Just Just carry out whatever you need to