Graham Henry Edit
Tue, Feb 06, 2024 9:27AM • 52:59
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
rugby, coach, game, auckland, learning, years, blacks, coaching, talk, team, new zealand, played, rugby team, job, rugby world cup, wales, won, culture, important, players
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Graham Henry
Paul Barnett 00:00
Graeme Hendry Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Graham Henry 00:07
Good morning.
Paul Barnett 00:10
Very happy to be talking to you this morning. Greg, could I start with something pretty simple Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today,
Graham Henry 00:19
where I'm on Waikiki Island, which is an island off Auckland, New Zealand body about 35 minutes by ferry, it's just after 8am in the morning on a Friday morning. The temperatures here today will get to about late 20s. So it's the middle of our summer so it's, it's considered hot in this part of the world to be in the late 20s. We're very fortunate we live as I said, on an island we will go to cut of acres we we fish and garden and drink wine and joy, our mates company and all those things. So married with with three kids and five grandkids. 77. So late middle aged and married to Ray when we've been married for 33 years. So we've had plenty of practice. And there we are, and I'm talking to you.
Paul Barnett 01:20
Well, Ray one's a great coach in her own right, which we might get onto through the interview as well. But I appreciate you taking a little bit of time to talk to us. Graham you've you've want to start the podcast four years ago, and I thought I didn't give you great coaches i i made a list of my my dream list. And and you were on it because of the great success that you've had with the All Blacks. So I'm really keen to hear about that and the cultural change that you were at the forefront with the with that amazing team. But perhaps we should just start at the start, which the start of your coaching career was 1975 I'm I was two years old. And I'm wondering, when you cast your mind back, what do you remember from those early years?
Graham Henry 02:12
I think it was I was exceptionally lucky. I was a school teacher, physical education teacher, mainly and science. And I taught at a school called Lachlan Grammar School, which is a great transitional Boys School in Oakland, by that well known and famous school in New Zealand by number of all blacks in disaster assistance with the sort of day in the first 15 rugby team, which started in in 75. And I fortunate because we had these very keen young men who were jumping out of their skin, wanting to play wanting to play good rugby, so as the ideal environment to learn to coach if you like. And so we still meet those teams, those boys still meet. They're in their 60s now. And so there was great empathy, but also lots of lots of real keenness and some had real ability I think during the time I coached Auckland Grammar 1975 to 1980 I think it was six or blacks during that to grant Fox and the Wiccan brothers. To mention a couple or three Nicky Allen, who played five egg for the or Brexit color hawkers moles and backhand John mills and John Buchan. So, and I've missed out John Drake, who were played in the 1987 Rugby World Cup was a prop Ford, who's no longer with us, unfortunately. But so talented boys keen as mustard ideal environment to learn to be a coach. So I'm very grateful for that opportunity. It gave me a bit of a solid base to start with.
Paul Barnett 04:09
That solid base takes you eventually to be your first senior coaching role with Auckland in 1992. So it's 17 years later, when you transitioned into coaching the seniors What do you remember being most surprised by it at the time?
Graham Henry 04:25
But I've been coaching a long time by then. So we're talking 9092 And I started into 75. So we've got 17 years and in ik senior rugby, five or six years, I was a headmaster of a secondary school in Auckland called calcium Boys High School so I couldn't couldn't coach initially at the highest level. So I coached the Auckland colts for I think five or six years during that time after I finished with university and that was the end of the season that was said a reptile involvement rather than a whole season. Because as a new headmaster if you like. And so I was learning the ropes as a secondary school principal and, and coaching. And then in 1992, when I was still the principle of custom Boys High School, I was appointed coach of the Auckland rugby team. And the aim was amateur then, and we played, we played some super rugby. I think it was called the Super six. And we played provincial rugby obviously, was a very strong side. And I coached them through to 1998 When I went to Wales, but during that time, the game changed and went professional in 1996. So I was the blues coach in 96. The Orkin coach and 96 were two different teams. And the principle of chaos and Boys High School was first going all overalls. And something had to go. And I was very passionate about education. And I really enjoyed the role of headmaster and the responsibility. But I had to make a decision whether I was going to become a full time rugby coach or, and so I i prostituted myself and took the money and became a full time coach in 1997. So okay, Subarus and 9697 and 98. And and near the end of 98, probably August, I went to Wales. But that's another story.
Paul Barnett 06:45
There's a couple of stories in there. I'd like to just ask you a little bit more about actually, before we get to right, Wales, because when you're at Auckland, you're being you're being very modest, because there's four consecutive MPC championship titles. You beat the British lions, and you win the Ranfurly shield back from Cambria category. I mean, those were some fairly serious achievements. Graham, what traveled with you from that experience into the future what what was visible later, in your coaching style.
Graham Henry 07:24
I spent a lot of time on research, watching teams play watching us play at Auckland and the blues. And working out how we could improve our performance, how we could beat opposition tactically. I think probably if I had a strength, and I didn't have many, but if I had a strength, it was the ability to analyze the game. And to analyze strengths and weaknesses of the opposition, analyze ourselves and how we could improve. So just just looking at what was the correct game plan against various vision. And I think by having the background and researching the game, and I had a lot of help and doing that. But I think that helped us win rugby games. Also, we have very talented team, which is what's really helpful. Now good coaches have good teams, and I had good teams. So I was very fortunate there. But we did win six out of nine championships, two for the blues and for for Auckland over over that six year period. I think it was in nine championships. But as I say, you know, we had Sean Fitzpatrick and an igloo and Joe even dairy and I could go on and on. Robin Brock, you know, so we had a very talented rugby team and, and they performed by and enjoyed the game. It was the transition from amateur to professional. A lot of these guys had normal jobs. And were transitioning out of those normal jobs into professional rugby. And when they when they were amateurs, they the game was their outlet. They just love playing and love performing. And Eden Park was packed in those days, you know, we'd get 40,050 1000 to a Super Game, or a big PC game, national provincial championship game. And so as a was a very important part were very enjoyable part of walking rugby and i i took over aside from Morris prep, and Brian Williams, which was highly successful and very experienced. And so a lot of those players were legends in the game. So let's not get carried away here. Coaches have good teams, but if I had a strength was probably the ability to analyze the game and get the right game plan on the field.
Paul Barnett 10:05
I want to ask you chrome about the second thing you talked about a minute ago. And that's being a headmaster. And it was it was one of the major schools I understand in New Zealand as well. This was quite a prestigious school. What are the similarities when it comes to leadership? What are the similarities that come from leading a large school like that, and leading a sporting organization?
Graham Henry 10:31
I think, you know, the school that I was principal, I was calcined bliss High School, which was a desolate three, four school, which means that it was in a reasonably lower socio economic area. And there was a lot of Pacifica boys in that school. Mary Pacifica, so probably when I lived, there was over 80%, non European. And I think two things stood out. One was the staff were superb, very good staff who, who, who helped each other a lot. So good spirit and the staff. And that was a bit of tradition at Kelson Boys High School. And those days, and a lot of teachers who got involved in things like cultural groups and music and in sport, and why catering for the individual, how we got the best out of most of them, let's not get carried away here. Not all succeeded, but by giving them giving them support in their interests, they did better in the classroom. And I think that's very important. So as an individual education, if you like, give kids opportunities to participate in the Samoan cultural group, in art and rugby. They did better in the classroom and mathematics and science if you like. So that was that was pretty important. But also, having a having a staff that were motivated to help these kids was hugely important.
Paul Barnett 12:25
So Gray, we get to Wales, and, of course, Wales in New Zealand, both have rugby as their national sport. It's fair to say that my Welsh friends mad for rugby, in the same way that New Zealand is completely besotted with the game as well. But when you head over there to take on the job as the national coach, rugby, New Zealand implemented the Henry clause, which was designed to block you from ever coaching the All Blacks now. That That must have been quite a shock that must have been, you know, to have that dream taken away from you. I'm wondering, when you reflect on decision making, and the role that's played in your life, did you ever doubt that decision to head over to Wales?
Graham Henry 13:16
I'd gone down that track quite a long way. Like the Welsh invited me to be the national coach, which was a great honor. And I had gone down to one intern to see the CEO of New Zealand Rugby. And I said, Look, I've been asked to coach to Welsh, but I'd rather coached your breakfast my chances. And I can't repeat what he said to me. He just abused me. And so really, really, I really thought that was improper, not quite tactic. So it just gave me the motivation to say, Well, if that's your attitude, I'll leave. And at the time I talked to cut the board members and that wasn't a particularly positive. I came at the level below for a long time. So well, I'd coached for six years at the level below and we've had a lot of success. And I wanted to coach at the highest level and I may never contract was pretty attractive. So and it was a new experience, you know, it was outside your comfort zone knew nobody going to coach in a country that was passionate about the game but had had a lot of recent failures. So they weren't they were in in pretty poor shape, to be fear. And that was a good challenge, a new experience. Something I'd never done before. I thought it would be something pretty specialty, I have a crackhead. And I had a very supportive wife about the supportive wife. And she, she supported me, which was fantastic. So I made the decision to go but it wasn't an easy decision. Even walking rugby, I had to pay, I was contracted to them, and I had to pay back some money, which was I thought unfair, but I had no choice. So after being six years and helping open rugby for a long time, both a constant level and senior level, but that was the way it was, and so just had to bite the bullet and get on with it.
Paul Barnett 15:45
Get on with it, you did. So in 20,000, you lead Wales to the Six Nations championship and the Grand Slam, it's to great, great achievement, it must have been so special to be part of that in such a rugby loving country. But at this stage, you're also 54. And I'm wondering, without being ageist, it's not far off the age, I am going to be soon. I wonder whether you thought this might be the pinnacle for you.
Graham Henry 16:14
But the Welsh challenge was all encompassing and, and I loved it. But I come from a educational background, I hadn't come from a professional rugby background, if you like. to the same extent is perhaps the opposition. So my, my career was an education till I was the age of 50. And I hadn't had a background and rugby if you like, it was just my passion. So it was a massive learning experience for me. And I had some great people who I worked with in Wales who were very supportive. In fact, Ray when Robin gets over there coaches are networking, because she's into netball, and CG coaching at club team and Cardiff. And they asked her to coach the Welsh national team. So she's coaching the Welsh national team. And I'm Coach netball, and I'm coaching the rugby team. So we're, we're pretty busy. You know, we're up to our eyeballs, but we loved it. But it took its toll on the finish. I was asked the case of British and Irish lions and toured Australia in 19 in 2001. And that was a challenging tour. didn't go as well as I'd hoped it would I didn't do do the job is as well as I should have. Should have done it another way.
But again, I was learning and I learned a massive amount about myself about the coaching of rugby with other people which I and and mainly about learning about yourself under pressure. So I had some difficult times there. But I look back and think they were the greatest learnings of my life. So we you guys are weary. And so I got depression, apparently, and resigned and left in 2002 that learning was invaluable going forward. [PB1]
And I was you know, it was pretty serious business because I was being paid a lot of money. I think I was probably the highest paid rugby coach in a world at that point in time. And that I'm not, that's not a voting statement. It was just a factual statement. So it was a lot to give up, you know, because it gave the family a lot of stability. But your mental health is much more important. And so I I resigned and left and went back to New Zealand and got myself right. But in the meantime, New Zealand Rugby was involved in the 2003 Rugby World Cup, and there are 3003 Rugby World Cup was meant to be played in Australia and New Zealand because New Zealand couldn't get clean grounds no advertising. The international rugby board now World Rugby, changed their tune and had all the Rugby World Cup in Australia. Before the New Zealand Rugby board got the SEC and the CEO who introduced the Henry clause, Henry Krause was lost. And so on time I was able to apply for the All Blacks in 2003 and lucky enough to be appointed to that job for eight years.
Paul Barnett 19:54
Brian, could we talk a little bit more about the burnout you mentioned Depression in there and what you learned, and you talk a lot about it in the book, and the book is, is a fantastic read, I'm gonna put the links to it in the show notes. Because this period in the book is very raw, actually, you know what was going on with the British and Irish lines, you've been this SuperSix event is great, successful run, not only in rugby, but in your career, and then you get this big stumbling block. And the way you talk about it. It's, it's almost very emotional. And I say that with all due respect, because I've interviewed will be half a dozen coaches from New Zealand now. And I think there is a degree of stoicism there. And I think that they're very proud sporting nation, so would have taken a lot for you to write about that. But what's the learning you've got for other people, when it comes to dealing with something like this?
Graham Henry 20:52
So, Warren Gatland, for example, has been doing the Lions for some time. And he got a year's leave of absence from us from coaching whales, while he coached the lions, so there was a big learning for others as well. But now it's just just just too much going on to handle it if we won for Australia in 201, and Australian that we were good in those days. I'm allowed to say that this in the world into a way, the world champions in 1999. And, and so they had a very strong side. And it was a great series, The Lion series in 201, went to the wire, seven tries each and the three test matches. I'm just trying to pump up my tires here. So but you know, I, if I'd done it better. We could have won it. And so I was the first time I think, really in my career that I we hadn't achieved when I was coach as much as I'd hoped we would. [PB2]
And I hadn't been used to that. Plus the fact that I had, I was overloaded, big time. And it just took its toll. So I knew I had to get out. I just burnt out totally, I knew I had to get out. I wasn't going to come right by staying. And the Welsh Rugby Union were fantastic to me. Very supportive. And so I just came back Robin state actually because she had a World Cup in Jamaica, nipple cup and I came home and, and exercise, you know, went back a row, which is a little French settlement in the South Island out of Christchurch, where I was born and bred in Christchurch. So new eco well took my parents decorilla They were still alive in those days. This is 2002. And I ran the forest and eco every day. There's a forest at the top that comes down into the valley into the down into the Akaroa Harbour. And it's amazing the connection between the physical and the mental. And I got myself right when I thought I did and then I got an offer to coach in Japan, university side in Japan, so went over there and coach I got back on the bike. And I coach with David Young and that university side was at a university won the all European University, the title, they're gonna win it anyway because they only invited when they're good. And so I got back on the bike came back to Auckland, end of 2002 knocked on the Auckland Rector us door. David White was the was a CEO said I'd like to help the auction team again. And he asked Wayne P vac and Ron Fox who were the current coaches, whether they could put It was me assisting them. And they said, let y'all follow run. And so I became the defense coach for print. And that spended on to blues. And those two teams won three championships in a row, which was fantastic, really enjoyable not being the head coach and having full responsibility and, and then I played for the All Blacks. And, you know, with a change of governance, the Henry Cross was lost, and I was fortunate enough to be appointed over at coach for the 2004. And so
Paul Barnett 25:35
there we are. And you've got two pretty handy assistants with you, when you get the job this Steve Hansen course has gone on to be a great coach himself, and Wayne Smith, and other great coach. So you had a pretty good team around you. But what I wanted to ask Graham is, this is a big change for you this this all black job, because in my reading of what happens, you go from being the person who was in charge of everything, had their hands on everything, to being the person who's overseeing things and being more like that nothing analogy is the right one. But being a bit more like a conductor, stepping back a little bit. And I, I wanted to ask you was it easy, I may have misread the situation from from the book and the research, but was it easy for you to make that adjustment to being someone that was just one step higher?
Graham Henry 26:38
Now, because I love to be at the front, and that was how I always coached, I've coached then for about probably about 30 years. And so I was that guy, you know, up the front, beating the drum and trying to get everybody organized and motivated and so on. And it was just the way it was, you know, is the way you learned when you were teaching and head mastering. You didn't have time, those days to do to get yourself do the job. So now was a major change. And that change was due to my my earnings in Wales and the British and Irish lions that I had to had to give other people a lot more ownership, not only the rest of the management team, but the players, and the more ownership I could give them, the better they would respond. And so that was the big learning, you know, go from a coach driven environment to a team driven environment, with a lot of other people having increased responsibility. [PB3]
And I think getting the right people was critical. You know, it's about the people isn't that it's about the selection of the right people when Wayne and Steve were two are the right people. And there's a lot of others. And so I spent a lot of time trying to make sure that the right people were on the bus. And I had guys like Gilbert and Oka who's been the the All Blacks, sports psychologists for the last 20 years. People like him and in the right medical staff, etc. I could mention a lot of names, but I'll miss somebody out.
So there's not go down there but and then forming a leadership group amongst the players. So we had a leadership group of 37 players and six management. And they with the communication with the rest of the team ran that team. So it's a matter of matter of giving them a lot more responsibility, a lot more ownership. And me driving the bus from the back of the bus and sit at the front of the bus, if that makes sense. And lifting try to help lift the abilities of all the other people with the help of some very good people who I've mentioned. And so it was successful, and it took a wee while to for all to come together. But as I said, the more responsibility more ownership we gave people, the better they performed.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 29:29
I'd like to talk about that leadership, group Graham, but I'd like to just take a few steps before we get there if I could, because a lot happens in those early years in church. And you know, there's there's the book legacy that's written about what happened. And we've interviewed James correction on the podcast as well. But I'd like to just hear from you actually, about what you were trying to do in those early days. When it came to improving the team culture
Graham Henry 30:05
that's a long story. We haven't got three or four hours, but really your brand culture in those days was probably no, no criticism was just the way things were. The senior players were dominant. And there was a, there was a, a alcohol problem in the group. But it was just the continuation of the amateur days, you know, had mean, on and off the field, you know, and, and that didn't suit everybody. And so we had to develop a culture that, that everybody felt comfortable in. And not just some hard mean, who may have responsibility, that theme.
So we went through some learning curves. But in the finish, it was about having a clear understanding what your purpose was. And our purpose was to be the best in the world. But we have the ability to be so we, we had to achieve that. Not only the best rugby team in the world, but perhaps the best sporting team in the world. And like the All Blacks have been nominated for the Laureus Sports Awards Team of the Year, four times and been named once and nobody else has done that, as far as I know. So there was some achievement on that purpose, you know, to be the best sporting team in the world. And nobody knew that we didn't advertise that it was just within the team, and then we had to develop a culture that would achieve that purpose. And everybody had to take that on board adhere to that live that culture, and that culture was really to be brief was about humility, you know, understanding we had come from not getting ahead of yourself, realizing your job is to keep getting better, keep improving. So that was your job, if you thought you were the finished product, you were dead. So it was a constant self improvement by the management and the players of that team. So humility, understanding that you are not that you can always get better. And capital was that was the hunger, the integrity of doing what you had to do to to achieve those things, you know, to achieve that, and self improvement. [PB5]
And then we were lucky, because we had a team that has a history, a legacy that goes back 100 years. And our job was to add to that legacy. So it wasn't a difficult story to tell or not a difficult story to, to put into place. If everybody if everybody agreed, and we know in the end, and in the in the main 99% No, that's a bit of an exaggeration. 95% of those people involve agreed with what we were trying to do. And so it was a team driven thing. It was a solution focused, it was about communication. And it was real time, real time culture. So every two or three test matches, we'd sit down, say, what is the goal for the next two or three tests? How are we going on our culture? How are we going on our ability to play the game. So we set objectives for every two or three tests, but constantly working on the right behaviors, the right culture, and if you haven't got the right culture, you can be the best or you can achieve your ultimate potential. So that that backbone was incredibly important, real time culture, total understanding of what that was by everybody involved, and what we're trying to achieve. back as I say that we're very fortunate the All Blacks are considered perhaps one of the most successful sporting teams in the world over 100 years. And we have that base to work from. And that legacy, proving that legacy was, was hugely motivational.[PB6]
Paul Barnett 34:36
And what's interesting is it's not a straight line to success, because in 2007, the team I think it's fair to say unexpectedly lose in the semi finals of the World Cup. And I know there are this madness of a refereeing decision in there which is, you know, it's probably been proved to be wrong, but when I read about the situation and how you handled it I'm fascinated from a leadership point of view you you reflect on it by saying you were trying to make the most of the situation which you described as terrible but Graham the way you handled yourself through that period meant that you eventually went on to win a global Sportsmanship Award at a big award ceremony in Paris I'm sorry I've just forgotten the name of the city that were you were in but just reading through it I it felt to me like this was you at your best as a leader in that moment? And I'm I'm wondering what you learn or what you talk to you about when you meet other leaders when you reference that time and the learnings that you you you share with them
Graham Henry 35:50
Yeah, I think you know, I had a bit of luck really you fear a guy you the the corner fire or a card for the Rugby World Cup and two i Seven was probably the most difficult rugby game when aftermath 1000s are experienced. And I was lucky that I've gone through the adversity of the lions and whales and the depression and me being because I think that gave me a lot of strength of learning how to handle that sort of stuff that adversity it's a long story again, and take a long time to tell the full story. But really, we we just took it on the chin initially and say there was no point in complaining about how the game was officiated. And we just congratulated the French and got on with it. I I didn't make any excuses at the press conference just didn't say anything really. At the press conference after the quarterfinal into a seven and went into the British into the French dressing room and spent some time with the French I needed new Burnet report who was the coach because he was the coach of the French when I was coaching the Welsh, so I knew him quite well, and just congratulated them because we'd beaten them by a big score 50 points three or four months prior, it was a major turnaround and they played well. No doubt. So ended I was nominated and learning curve, a big learning curve. We came back to New Zealand do the job and their quarterfinal. We froze, we choked. There's no doubt we still should be but we still should have won the game, but we didn't. So how do you learn from that? So you're always learning from adversity. We were lucky to be reappointed or Breck management. You know, Wayne and Steve and myself, were reappointed. And we bought in a mental skills coach. What I meant to we brought in a psychiatrist, Carrie Evans was his name. He was pretty well known in New Zealand, he was an ex New Zealand football captain. He was a black belt in karate. And he was a psychiatrist. So he had all the right ingredients. And he talked to the leadership group about how we could improve our mental toughness under pressure. And it made a big difference to us you know it's another long story about the whole detail of that but it made a big difference to is it one won't rugby games. We will make the tough to wins some games against the odds and we finished up winning the rugby will happen. His involvement Carrie Evans involvement was a real positive for us. So I can't I can't emphasize more than you learn a lot from difficult and Mike being on these difficult times. But if they knew that this was the greatest learning curve they'll ever have maybe that hanging and I was lucky. I've been through that. The way I was British lions experience knew that you're going to have some adversity is going to handle it and run from Auckland. So so I'd fortunate
Paul Barnett 39:26
but I asked you Graham about Carrie Evans, and mental skills. Because it's a big issue, not just for sports, but I think there'll be many parents listening that think, you know, I'd love to be able to help my children develop mental skills. Is there one or two little things that you think we could all be doing to help in this area?
Graham Henry 39:53
Yeah, I think you know, I think passion is important, you know, I was obsessed with rugby coaching, and I got no no apology for that, I think it's important to have passionate obsession, because it rides over the bumps in the road. And I just wonder whether our young people today is get to be too passionate to obsessed by their pet, by their interests. I'm not sure if it's seen as a positive, I think it's positive. And so I think initially, you need to have a passion, if you're going to achieve in a certain area, a real passion, a real obsession about doing your best all the time to achieve on the on the big stage.[PB7]
I think also you need to conduct your life so that you're, you're helping your metal metal skills, and I found I found having a lot of exercise helped me as more exercise, the better I felt and the better I could connect with people. So that became part of the ritual exercise. I also had good mentors. Guys, I could talk to people I could talk to, as I set up married well, so that was that was very helpful. Raewyn was very helpful, amazingly helpful, actually, because I when I was going through the worst of that, she was the backbone, and she was really helpful. I also had some, the guy who used to be the Auckland Grammar principal, and he's no longer with us. Sadly, John Graham, Sir John Graham, said in the book, he taught me at Christchurch Boys High School, he asked me to teach at Auckland Grammar School, when he was first appointed principal there in 1973. He changed my life, you know, I would have been rudderless without him. So he was fantastic. And there was others, you know, Jacque Hobbs who was the chair of New Zealand Rugby, it's been a lot of time with him. So I could go on and on. But having good mentors, good mates, who you could talk challenges with, you know, a problem shared is a problem halved. Also getting away, you know, getting away out of the heat, doing a bit of fishing, getting, getting chosen the sand, revitalizing, pretty important. Also, you know, I think, doing the job well. You know, there's nothing more stimulating than you think that you're on top of it. You may be kidding yourself. But when you think you're doing a good job, you make you feel good. So it's a combination of all of those things, really understanding where you're at, understanding that you're under pressure, understanding, you've been there before. Not losing your passion for the job, but interest in making sure that you're looking after yourself properly, you know, that exercise? Those good mates, those those mentors, just recharging the batteries doing the job? Well, one of those things.
The
Paul Barnett 43:26
Well, can I talk now about the 2011 World Cup? And I'd like to circle back and talk about the leadership team. Because in the book, you, you describe it as being not, not the reason, but the the main tent pole that keeps this culture alive on a day to day basis. And I'm wondering if you could just walk us through the setup of that leadership team and what you learned about these types of teams along the way?
Graham Henry 44:06
Yeah, as I said before, you know, the leadership group was made up of 13 people. At that time, were seven players, seven CD players and, and six management and the three coaches were involved and go what was involved in that Gildan okay, but the players, I think, from memory around the 211 Rugby World Cup, where were some pretty impressive individuals like Richie mCore and Daniel, Daniel Carter, Conrad Smith, Mills, Marie Aina, red Thor and the two hookers, Kevin and me alarming when Andrew hor. And those meetings were were very vulnerable meetings and people were very vulnerable in those meetings. So our whole goal was to be the best in the world and what, what was the elephant in the room? corner stopping us doing that. So they were pretty emotional meetings. And everybody, I hope, had the opportunity of expressing their opinions and some their strength was to express those opinions. So, that was, that was pretty critical and they they grew together those players, you know, they grew and helped each other. And they went on, you know, Smith and Conrad Smith and Daniel, Catherine Ricci McCord and Kevin Milano, who became they went on to the tour to 15 Rugby World Cup as leaders, you know, saying they were joined by guys like ma Nanu. And, and Karen Reed and many others, Tony Woodcock. And I think there was probably a dozen players he played to 11 finally played into 15. And so that group, their combined strengths and their combined support of each other was a massive, a massive reason why the Albrecht's one, two Rugby World Cups in a row. So now, as I said before, the more the more ownership those guys have given, and as they grew and grew and experience, the greater ownership they took more responsibility they took and you look at that group, you know, Conrad probably played or did he play 100? I'm not sure probably close to it. Daniel Carter played over 100 test, given me allow me played over 100 days, Richie McCaw, McCourt paid 149 tests. So you had a massive amount of experience, and also a huge amount of respect for one another. And guys going out of their way to add to that, that leadership, Sam White Rock was a young player and intuitive and young lock forward a second year international intuitive and started to gain, you know, they are the greatest lock forward in the world were the most kept locked forward in the world. So he was part of that. Going forward. So just, you know, I think the change in giving players ownership was the major, major reason why your brakes went to Rugby World Cups in a row. The other one, I think, this time learning from to seven, when we weren't mentally tough enough to handle a situation and Cardiff and learning from that situation and, and developing a mental skills program that address that.
Paul Barnett 48:00
It seems like all those learnings from the Welsh experience and the burnout that you that you experienced as a result came to bear in that period, you know, spreading the load, when it comes to leadership, working on mental skills, focusing on the environment, it seemed to all come together to create what was something that was pretty special.
Graham Henry 48:22
I hit the nail on the head, it's yeah, it's surviving. It's survival of critical, pretty important, you know, they could have given us a sack after two, seven. So it's about survival. And let's face it, we were lucky enough to survive. Also, we beat the French in 211, by 1.1 point makes a massive difference to your life. You know, look at the All Blacks from the last Rugby World Cup, winning and fosters the coach and they lose by two points was it they could have won the game? It makes a massive difference to your life. And so although we went through some adversity, and I went through some adversity, also had another luck, and you need a bit of luck. You need a little bit of luck to do these things.
Paul Barnett 49:15
Ryan, you've been so generous with your time and I know it's probably getting ready for your morning coffee or your morning walk. So maybe just one last question, if I could. There's been so much written about the cultural change that you oversaw the All Blacks. I don't know whether I've really managed to add to that much today with this interview. But it is so pervasive in modern culture. And it's obviously the book legacy has helped to travel all over the world, but these days, when people bring up the word legacy to you, how do you feel about it?
Graham Henry 49:53
Ah, you know, I? Yeah, it's a good question because I wonder I wonder where what we're doing in the game today? You know, I, there's too many variables that you can't control. I think the game has got too complicated. I'm not answering your question. I figure I would drop the cackle height to below the waist of the waist and below and I think it would change the game. In order to get get back to the great game that we all love, just with concerned about the future of the game at the moment, it'll make the game safer, and more attractive game to watch and a better game to play. So can we continue to add to the legacy where I'm, I'm just saying the games got so complicated. And I think perhaps we're, we're also making it more complicated, like leaders still got to lead. Even though they might be reading from the back of the bus, they've still got a lead. And and I just wonder whether we've got too many leaders in the group. You know, and how is that? How has that worked through, so there is a very clear direction going forward. And there's just a gut feel, I could well be wrong. So do I do apologize if I'm stepping on anybody's toes here, but we still need very clear direction on where we're going and, and, and our planning, but I, you know, with the officiating of the game, and the complications or laws. I think people are losing their love of it. And, and so we've got to simplify it again. So it's an a much easier game to play and an easy game to watch an easy game to understand, and a safer game, and a more attractive game. So that's my hope for the future. I hope the Rugby World Rugby has got similar thoughts. And those changes will happen.
Paul Barnett 52:12
The wonderful answer because it illustrates something I've noticed about great coaches. They're always looking forward to try to get them to look backwards is really difficult. So Graham, I appreciate you taking the time today to talk to us. It's a it's a such a wonderful story. It's been so eloquently written about all over the world, but it's wonderful to hear it directly from you and you gave some advice in there around you think you said have good mates, you can talk challenges with a knife. As you said it I could think of two friends in my life that have gone through challenges and need a phone call. So I'm going to bid you a lovely day and I'm going to go and call those those teammates of mine.
Graham Henry 52:52
You do that? Thank you enjoyed it.
Paul Barnett 52:56
Thank you. Bye bye