James Kerr edit
Thu, Apr 13, 2023 2:07PM • 51:17
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, group, create, team, called, belonging, blacks, moment, coach, environment, ethos, question, sport, players, game, fa cup, book, character, bit, leadership
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, James Kerr
Paul Barnett 00:00
James Kirk, good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
James Kerr 00:05
Paul, brilliant to be here. Thank you very much for having me. It's a real honor.
Paul Barnett 00:08
James something easy to get his going. Where are you in the world? And what have you been doing so far today?
James Kerr 00:14
Haha, well, I'm in London. I live in London. I'm a boy from New Zealand Aotearoa. But I've lived in London for nearly three decades now. So I'm here and the weather is gray. And this morning. So it's morning time here. I've been trying to get broadband sorted so we can do this interview. So not a very glamorous start to the day but but a successful.
Paul Barnett 00:39
James, I understand that you started actually working in advertising. And I'm curious to kick us off, where did your fascination with team dynamics and organizations come from?
James Kerr 00:53
Well, it's an interesting question.
Yeah, so I was in advertising in Sydney, Australia, actually, and I as a copywriter. And I think and I'll come to the answer to the question, but you know, I think what advertising teaches you is to kind of get to that essence, the essence of an idea. It's really about storytelling, and, and sort of the essential qualities, the sort of the values, the principles right at the heart of whatever it is product or brand, person, whatever. And coincidentally, at the same time, a friend of mine had been with a advertising photographer, but he had kind of cut his teeth in rugby league working for your various publications on Rugby League, and he had some context within the Australian Rugby League team, the kangaroos and over a couple of beers we hatched to kind of canning scheme, which was kind of to talk our way into the into the guts of of the kangaroos, Australian Rugby League team to do it to do a book called 28 heroes and ended up being called and the idea was that kind of they gave us the access corporate sponsorship paid for the production. And we took a bit of a fee out of it, not a lot, but the back end the profits went to the the teams nominated charity, so it was sort of a win win for everything, but it gave us the access. So I ended up this kind of cappuccino drinking copywriter from from Christchurch, New Zealand, who had never really engaged with rugby league, I had to go to the Leeds public library to look at the rules on the bus and in the locker rooms with kangaroos with one of the great sporting dynasties, you know, certainly at its palm and these are the days of you're in Melbourne NGO, Ricky Stuart, who I know was a guest last week, I think you're recently Bobby Linna, cement Gillespie, Greg Alexander, Brad footless first tour, and it was it was the coach was the great Bobby Fulton. And, and I loved it. I love the dynamics and I learned a lot and I learned a lot about leadership and Bobby Fulton Bozo, you know, who they say sort of played just outside Jesus, didn't they? I think was that was the thing. It was a god of a man. He really, really was an extraordinary man. He's recently passed away. And but there was a moment, there was this one moment. So I joined slightly late, I joined about a week after the team had had arrived. And they just played at Wembley, and they'd lost. So it wasn't a great time to turn up for for, you know, into to kind of be an outsider coming inside the team is not the ideal time. It's difficult enough at any time, but it was not the ideal time. So I met them on the coach on the bus, and they were coming in, they weren't very happy. And I was of course in the worst seat on the bus than us member of the group. But we're seat on the bus right up at the front right by the aisle. And the players would come in after me. They're all you know, in front of me and the most of them would just ignore me. But there's a guy called Steve Roach blocker roach. Many will remember hard rock, hard Ozzie boy, I think he might have softened up a little bit. But he was a he was a tough nut in those days. And he stopped in front of me and he looked me up and down. I'm not going to repeat the language but it wasn't very good. It was like who that is this. And of course I just went you know, I was in my mid 20s. I not very experienced in the way of the world trying to make a good impression. I just died inside. Anyway, he went on and everyone sort of took their seats and the bus went off, hit it off up to Manchester where we were staying. And I was sitting there wireless hasn't started very well hazard and I'm sitting there stewing and so And after about 510 minutes, I felt a tap on my shoulder. And I looked up and it was Bobby Fulton. And he sort of said to you know, jump up son or something like that. So I got to my feet and sort of turned to face him and he had a team tie. I like the test tie. And he just handed it to me and shook my hand and nodded. But everyone can see, I'm right at the front of the bus everyone could see. And no, no words spoken, but from that moment on, I was in, I was on the inside of that group. And it was one of the most emotionally intelligent pieces of leadership that I'd seen to that point. [SB1]
And in a way I've, since I've seen since, and I think, I mean, you know, hindsight is wonderful, but I think that was one of the moments that I just went, you know, this is fascinating, the, the way that communication happens in dynamics and belonging, and identity, and acceptance, and, you know, and all of those things kind of managed within that kind of tight dynamic, and that tight environment. And I was, I was fascinated by it, and I was, you know, was a sucker for it, from then on. And then, you know, my career kind of evolved partly around advertising, but more into the idea of identity. And, and I worked as a consultant, with brands, with organizations, some of them are kind of sporting organizations, you wafer, and various various organizations. And really, my joke is my audiences got smaller, you know, my audiences went from nations, you know, with advertising into, into, into organizations into teams. And so really, it was a convergence of that kind of looking for the essence and looking for the story, kind of a thing about leadership and sport and teams. And, and really my that that was my fascination, and it's really gone from there. Well,
Paul Barnett 06:37
let's pick up this idea of fascination with teams and organizations and helping them move forward. Because in your book, you give this great quote from The New Zealand coach Wayne Smith, and he says people will rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. You talk about it in the context of helping people but I was interested James, can you share with us an example of where you've helped a group define their challenge,
James Kerr 07:03
I think possibly the best illustration of some of the work in the way that I work, and it's a combination of creating that kind of sense of belief and belonging, and people rise to challenge that empowerment thing. And also, the storytelling aspect might be a project I did with Leicester City Football Club. And for those of you in Leicester, at the moment, languishing in the relegation zone in the Premier League, I'm not working with them anymore, but I'm hoping they'll be able to get their head above the parapet and take it further.
But a few years ago, four or five years ago, I worked with Brendan Rodgers, that then manager and he had taken over the team at a really, really interesting time. A few years before that those who know their their premiership football less than to the impossible, they won the Premier League, they thought of themselves as sort of the best pub team in the world. And, and they went out through a combination of really a lot of team cohesion. Very simple game plan, a whole lot of big clubs melting down, they kind of one kneel their way to the to the world. And it was an extraordinary achievement from a club that had got about 100 ideas without winning anything. A perpetual runners up and the FA Cup that hadn't won anything. And that was made possible by governance. And by the owner beach, I couldn't have a chai, Thai businessman who had come in, selected the club. And then he had invested not just money, but really soul, I think, into the environment. And he had got really good people on board and created a very, very strong people culture selected on character, fantastic. And they've done the business. And then they had a sort of a stop start season the next season. And then then there was a tragedy, a terrible tragedy in that VHi after a West Ham game, took off in his helicopter from King Power Stadium, there was a problem with the rotor, and it spun and crashed in the carpark and burst into flames and VHi and his fellow passengers were killed. So it here was a team, a group, a club, a community that has gone to the heights of heights and literally came had come crashing down to earth. The new manager came in three or four months later, Brendan and I asked me to come in and do some work with the group to to kind of reboot, I guess, you know, who are we what do we stand for? What are we doing? Why does it matter? What are those questions? You know, the big the big kind of soft questions that are really hard, if that makes sense. And we met in evianne, which is on the shores of Lake Geneva where they have their preseason and began a conversation and it was really about the players. You know, a lot of a lot of times in sport and particularly in the US Sport, the players are hired hands. You know, they're not seen to be the club or that franchise or the whatever, you know, but, but it seems to me that the most important people in the room and the expertise in the room are the people who go out on the paddock who go out on the pitch. And that's not always strangely the case more and smaller and more antipathy in sports, perhaps, but, but often, strangely enough, it's a disempowered situation, the general manager has the or the, the gaffer is in charge, and everyone else is just kind of, you know, the strings to be pulled but, but really, Brendan's are very forward thinking and very, very talented man manager. And we created a conversation around, you know, who are we what do we stand for? What does it mean? What took the club to the heights? What did the child's death mean? What do we stand for? What's our purpose here? What's the what's the why, and we created from that a number of values, one of which was courage, you know, courage to overcome that kind of adversity, but also courage to be bold, to play big.
And, and, you know, I think there's two things, there's the output and the outcome, you know, the output is sort of a set of values, or a narrative or an ethos, some words on a piece of paper, whatever, whatever it is, some symbols, some rituals, but the outcome really is around connection. And it's really about belonging, and belief and getting your fingerprints on it. And empowerment of, there's a great line in a military unit I worked with, which just says that empowerment is people executing the plan, they've had a part in planning your people rise to a challenge of it's their challenge.
If you tell people what to think it'll go in one ear and out the other, or they won't internalize them. If you ask them what they think they need to search inside themselves, they need to ask some difficult question they need to know themselves. They need to know what they think they need to articulate at first to themselves, and then out loud. And once somebody has been through that process, that kind of questioning process, then they will own it, they will feel a sense that it's them. And then when we own something, we defend it, we play for it, we want to prove ourselves, right. You know, and that's a very fundamental kind of sense of, I think it's a fundamental sense of empowerment and action, [SB2] [SB3]
you know, Wayne Smith, or you mentioned before, you know, I got to coach the exceptional humor. He told me once that year, he tried to go three tries to go through his week, not telling anyone anything, he tries to just ask question. There's a guy, Dave Hadfield, a coach from New Zealand, who the fantastic guy who really cool he calls us query theory, and it's really about awareness. It's about maybe, you know, embedding awareness deep inside ourselves, and opposed works on a technical level, you know, are you aware of what your back foot is doing in a cricket shot, or whatever, cricket strike, but also awareness of your place in a team, your significance in a group, there, you're part of something bigger than yourself, you know, psychologically, we, you know, we want to have a have a meaningful role in something meaningful, you know, and that's very powerful sense of sort of embedded belonging in that. And if we co create that, if we create that ourselves, we get our fingerprints on it, we put our name on it, then then that's a very powerful lock, you know, that creates cohesion, connection, contribution, ownership, accountability, all of the stuff you want. In a great group, they're all the kind of qualities of a great group. And so there's so the process with with Lester was about that. And then it was what I call pass the ball, it's over to you guys. You know, I'm the catalyst for that kind of conversation. And the group, you know, the leadership within that group, they had various symbols made a kind of a plaque, that we had a creed that people literally signed up. So there was a ritual, you know, it's kind of this is what we believe this is my gonna be my partner. And it was very powerful. And, you know, it's by no means the only reason that the next few seasons unfolded as they did. There were a lot of reasons. There are always a lot of reasons, combinations. You know, there is never one thing but but I'd like to think that there's sort of picked off the kind of the process, if you like of belief and belonging and connection and cohesion. And it's kind of the glue in the oil, you know, it sits at the heart of it, people know what they're part of, and that conversation begins. And you know, I think very much first one of the lines I use is universal, we shape our story, and then our story shapes us. And if you think about cognitive behavioral therapy, have you know the idea of reframing You know, if we all generated metaphors, you know, if we think life is a battle, you know, we're more likely to have rage incidents in our life. If we think life is a dance, well, maybe we'll kind of respond slightly differently. And these metaphors shape cultures, you're in many ways these these ideas, shape our response patterns or behaviors over time.
So by embedding the right ethos, you know, the right narrative, if you like, or story or set of beliefs and belief system, early days, it tends to impact the way be the the emotional, psychological environment that people exist within, and align everybody in the same area, create norms and standards that people will understand and, and feel a sense of ownership, great their belief and belonging kind of set the team in the right direction. And I think one of the extraordinary things is that you another line I use is that you know, the story you tell yourself becomes a story that others end up telling about you, you character is destiny, in a way, you know, what we are the character that we set for ourselves often turns out to be, well, our intent is out there in the world. And then people start to notice. [SB4] [SB5]
And I think one of the fascinating things one of the couple of ideas that we talked about in the last thing was one that V chai is watching over us, you know that we represent Him, the group represents him, and we want to do right by him and continue his work. And one of his sayings was, you know, nothing is impossible. And so what was fascinating two years later, Lester ended in the FA Cup final at Wembley, the first FA Cup after COVID. So everyone was coming together as great congregation. And, you know, the FA Cup has always been my favorite favorite event. And I had the privilege of doing the sort of trading ground team talk before before Wembley, and to kind of remind the group of the work that we're done and what it means and my memories of the FA Cup and aging myself, Kevin Keegan back in 1974. And all of this and what it meant, and the team went out and they did the business and they weren't against Chelsea It was extraordinary, extraordinary moment in Lester's history in my history. But what was really fascinating from to answer your question is that is the it because it was COVID there was big banners the opportunity to put big banners up on the on the on the upper seats, so it was a limited seating. So there was a big banner of VHi, the late owner watching over them, the players and I didn't know this beforehand, but I had had arranged to have his portrait sewn into their their shirts, the jerseys, so they played with them by their heart. When they won. A number of things happened when when it came time to lift the cup. What are the great moments in sport, the hoisting of the FA Cup, the onfield Captain Casper Schmeichel brought over Where's Morgan the who was who was the squad captain and had been the captain through the through the premiership thing, and they hoisted it together unity one of the values Jamie Vardy, they came into form a huddle and Jamie Vardy there. Tell us about x striker was having a media interview at the time. So they held the circle open for him until he came in and he came in and leaped in the middle and then they closed as a group that unity again, Casper went off to get top couldn't talk vetoes son and brought him down from the crowd the chairman and brought him down from the crowd. And so he hoisted the cup. So all of these behaviors were about connection. There are a lot of the stuff that we talked about all the stuff that we talked about now whether it's a direct lineage, it's there anyway you know, the work I do a lot of excavating what's there and making it explicit and then the the comment the commentary you know, the pundits are saying you'll never see a more connected club but so courageous what they've come out about they all take responsibility for the task, you know, bhi would be proud. Right, the same story, it's a story we told two years before that and, and crafted interview. Now, to me, that's an example of you know, the story you tell yourself becomes a story that others end up telling about you.
Paul Barnett 19:45
Fantastic answer, James. Thank you. It's a great story. I hadn't heard it before. So I appreciate you sharing it. But I want to come back to the All Blacks for a minute. I know your story starts way before that, but it's probably what thrust you onto the international stage. And when I was rereading the book in preparation for today, one of the traits that stood out to me a lot, actually was this one around selflessness. You identified it in many of the All Blacks. And I think it stood out, because we don't see a lot of it these days, you know, in a social media world. And I wanted to ask you, what you've observed, as you've traveled around the world and worked with different organizations, what you've observed about the ability for people to learn how to be selfless.
James Kerr 20:33
I think you're completely right, I think I think there is a lot conspiring against it at the moment, social media, the, the selfie, the idea that everyone can be, have their own 15 minutes of fame, that we're all a personal brand, and, and so on, and so forth. And there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, I think, you know, we all have the right to self expression and all of that. But I think what it can create is, is a, an inability or a reluctance to identify or sublimate ourselves to a group when it's appropriate. And I'm not saying we have to do it all the time. And that we have to be cold, like in any thing that we belong to, but it's a very powerful place to stand.
If you want to be successful in a team sport. And the the reality of, I think, the tip of the spear, if you like, if I look at the best teams, they are all team first environments, they just because unless you put the team for me, you know, if you look at the difference, if you look at a group like Paris, San Jamar, at the moment, for instance, has a wonderful set of stars. But I'm not inside that group. But from what it appears a huge amount of dysfunction because those stars are grappling with each other. There's a great, I think it's a Turkish proverb, you know, it's better to have 5000 enemies outside the tent than one on the inside. Right? So cohesion, and working towards the same end, that being a meaningful part of something meaningful is is the power of a group. So if you look at as a Special Force unit, that it is about selfless service, it is about being prepared to lay down your life for your mates. You know, it is, and they do, you know, and that's why the best of the elite, soft units, the best of the elite soft units, because they have that sense of service to something bigger than themselves. And that's purposeful work. Sandhurst Military Academy, when the officer cadets turn up, it's called an ironing board Sunday, they turn up with ironing boards, because that's what they're going to do for the next three or four months is just prepare their kit, that they're all turned up with their ironing boards, but that not on their bed. So they don't really see until they sort of get your arms around a whole bit, but they go in and there's, there's a book sitting on their pillow. And it's the Bible for Sandhurst, and it's called serve to lead. Good serve to leave. It's the intrinsic ethos of leadership within the British Army, certainly, but But I think, now, I'm not particularly big on guns and war. But I do think that there is a lot to be learned from those environments, because they're life and death and performance environments. If you get it wrong, you get killed. So what what principles emerge from those environments that show us what high performance really looks like? You know, a high performing team really looks like what what is the ideal dynamic because because they have exceptional dynamics. The saps ethos is really interesting. It's a relentless pursuit of excellence, personal accountability, rank but no class get hierarchy out of the way flat and fast environment, humility and a sense of humor. That aspect of it is something that comes up in the All Blacks comes up in the essay S comes up in the Navy SEALs, you know, the trident in the Navy SEALs, they have their badge of belonging the the American Eagle has its head bowed in humility. And, you know, because if you get ahead of yourself in a battlefield, footy field, any field you get shot, so it does the selflessness
selflessness sounds like you're giving up on yourself. I think it's the opposite. I think that the arrogance is weak. Humility is a strength. Humility is being strong enough in yourself, to commit yourself to something that's not about your Self. And that's real strength, that's proper strength. You know, that's robust. And, you know, it resists adversity, it's, it's hugely resilient as a place to stand, I think. And of course, it's from the ancients, you know, it's Achilles and the Achilles heel, you know, when you think you're, when you think you got a May, that's when you, you get done in. But when there's always something to prove, when you're humble before the task, when you're humble in the group, where you've got more to give, you got more to learn, you're prepared to give yourself to it, because it's not really about you, then that's a very, very powerful place to stand as a human being, you get a group doing that, giving themselves to something, that's a very, very powerful group. But if you've got a group saying, Well, what's in it for me? Or, you know, I don't know, you know, on the star here, why should I do that, then that's weakness. You know, I it creates factions and friction within a group that creates what's called social loafing. Some people push hard, and some people slack off. But a bit if you don't have everyone in that group, sort of, you know, pedal to the metal contributing, you're a weaker group, and the reality in every every, or most sports, or team sport, certainly our team sports. You know, it's sort of a truism, but our team sport and and if the team does well, so does everyone within the team. And you're the worst groups are saying, well, I'm bigger than the team. But then it's not a team anymore isn't. [SB6]
Wayne Smith, a great Wayne Smith has a line where he says, you know, you've either got your hand up or your hand out. And a group, your hand up, you know, a businessman, I noticed, as you know, we're volunteers who just happen to be paid. If you take that mindset that you're you're giving before you get, you get anyway, you know, you've got to give to get we create value and value comes our way, it's not the other way around. So that contribute of mindset, the hands up, not hands out. Now, sometimes, I've sort of said this before, you gotta have your hand out, because we all need a hand. And we want to give someone else a hand. But most of the time, we want to have a hand up, we want to be giving, you know, volunteering volunteers who just happen to be paid. So that mindset, it's not just so first, first, I had to question how do you learn that? Well, I think there's two aspects, I think the three aspects of it, some people maybe never will, they're the one Astrix All Blacks, or the one Asterix Premier League, you know, they're the, they're the ones who kind of play for a bit a bit, but it didn't really work out, you know, often, in a great group might be highly talented, but there's a there's a character thing going on there, you know, and they can be highly destructive and disruptive within a group, you know, anyway, they they so there's that then there's the you need to create an environment in which that is the standards and expectations of that group, you know, that that is the expectation because we are shaped our behaviors are shaped very much by the environment, by their by their ethos of an environment and you're either going and accepted or it spits you out generally. So you want to create a very strong kind of understanding of what what great looks like in this group. You know, any group set their norms and then the sort of aspects around kind of endorsing and enforcing from a leadership point of view you're rewarding the right behaviors and not accepting the wrong behavior. Now you know businesses a lot of you take kind of businesses aren't very often very good at rewarding the right behaviors they reward on they give bonuses to the the talented dickheads but but but do you really reward Do you really reward character you know, how was character acknowledged and one one coach would give a man of the mat his Man of the Match award to players that so amount of the matches often decided by the pundit, the commentator, the sort of second commentator, you know, the comments man in the last three minutes of a game and it's usually the glory the third the showpony that point score or the devil, the one who got their head up in the rock and got noticed kind of thing but but most of the time, the real difference in a group is not as made off the ball. It's it's that the stuff that happens that most people don't see makes the biggest difference in a group usually, the decoy, the the one doing the hard yards, the dirty work and whatever whatever sport it is, so he would he would just do his own band or the match where he had in front of everyone he He would just give the nod to character to the one who did it for the team. So I think you want to align around that a bit. You want to create the environment and you want to get the right people on board. You know, some people are untouchable. And they can be very, very destructive. I think Rassie Erasmus, I saw something on on YouTube photos, selection policy, and you don't want to get the best people because I think his for his language, not mine, yo, cuz sometimes the best people are assholes. You want to get the right people. And of course, that selection on character and the talent and capability you don't you need the best. But you also need to get that balance, that it's the best that the character is a force multiplier really to tell him? That I think I think it was Michael Jordan said something like, it might have been John Wooden, I'm not sure they probably both said it's something like, you know, your talent or when your games but character will win you tournaments. It's the long game, and how you get those right people on board? So the long answer to a short question again, but I think, you know, select get the right people on board, create the right environment, the standards, the ethos, and then and then reward and award appropriately to so that you create a moving towards state for the right kind of behaviors, if you like, you know, I think I think one of the most important conversations is kind of defeating assumptions. Because, you know, if you've got, say, a football team, premiership football team, you know, chances are, there's five or 678 Different cultures converging at any one time, particularly if there's been a lot of transfers, people coming in, there's, there's South American, Latin American, you know, there's somebody from Germany, a few people from Germany, there's some French people, there's somebody from Ghana, or the Ivory Coast, you know, and they've also come from very different teams, and sometimes different class different family structures. So let's take the issue of time, the issue of time in Germany, and Latin American beat two entirely different concepts. So turning up on time, if it doesn't matter in one culture, and it does matter, and the other which one is right. Well, neither actually, unless you've got an agreement, but often we, you know, function on assumption, my way is the right way. But unless you've had that conversation, unless you've set your standards and expectations, unless you so I think one of the most important conversation coaches gonna have is, is those early preseason things? What do we want to achieve? And who do we have to be in order to achieve that? What do we want to do together? And what can we hold each other to account for? And what are the rules of engagement? Does that mean? If you're not 15 minutes early, you're late? Or does it mean 30 seconds before training is just fine with me, I didn't know. I would go for the 15 minutes early. But that's just me, unless you've got an agreement, as a group, no one has really has the right to, to to enforce it or get pissed off by the other person for not for not doing it their way. And so being really clear with those standards and expectations and that middle and I think that's that middle section about creating the environment, creating the kind of the rules of engagement and then then they can be enforced laterally. PEER Group enforcement occurs. And that's a huge and that's a powerful group.
Paul Barnett 33:36
Games, I want to pick up on a couple of things. They, you talked about strong cultures being almost cult, like you're talking about people putting their hands up, talks about peer groups holding each other accountable just in as well. And, and I want to look at it from a slightly different angle, because in these very strong cultures that you've encountered, how have you found these groups manage the challenge of giving themselves space to disagree with each other, and challenge each other in a way that makes sure that things continue to evolve. Otherwise, it could just become stuck, I imagine without that positive tension.
James Kerr 34:15
Yeah, yeah. Listen, I think that's a great question. I think, you know,
I think it's really a I've been doing some work on, on Everest climb for a book and Shiva, the great Hindu gods, maybe the greatest of the Hindu gods is the god of destruction and creation, right. His role is to destroy in order to create and I think any group to avoid that stagnation needs to needs to be able to destroy in order to create a few like it can never be static and needs to reinvent itself liner using legacy as you know, when you're on top of your game, change your game. You know, when things get to kind of comfortable, it's time to bust it up a little bit and, and that's really how you lead by being first to do the next new thing, in a way. [SB7]
So you know, in legacy I use, you know, the All Blacks as a case study, really of what it looks like. And, you know, they would go to the kind of end of year, get together of the coaches in Dublin and kind of tell people how they did it how they were winning, because partly, I think it's good good for the game. And partly, it's about helping them forcing them to reinvent. So on one level, that process of reinvention is huge. The the how you do it, and what we're really talking about is kind of safe conflict, I guess, how do you create the conditions for safe conflict? And that's completely vital. Partly, I think it's about some of the stuff we talked about before about giving voice about about having the conversations, it's not just somebody says from the top, this is how we're doing it.
So it's maintaining that ongoing conversation and keeping a kind of question and culture, I think is a large part of it. Because if you keep asking those conversations, they become more comfortable, you don't get those pinch conflict points quite as much. Partly, it's about having an expectation that this will be an environment of challenge. And actually good people rise to the challenge. So challenging each other becomes a norm, if you like, and it's also about psychological safety. Now, you know, there's a lot of research being done around the single most important thing in a group, according to Google, who did a massive program around around this called Project Aristotle, is psychological safety. But a lot of people I think misconstrue psychological safety, and they think that it's being soft and fluffy, easy on each other. It's the opposite. I think, you know, in great groups, that stuff that needs to get said gets said, and it gets sent quickly. And it gets sent to the people who need to hear it. So how do you do that? How do you create that environment? I think language plays a big part of it. In great groups and promoter of, you know, the All Blacks say stabbed me in the belly, not the back. I love that. I think it's from Oscar Wilde, who would have thought a bunch of rugby players quoting Oscar Wilde, but there you go, but stabbed me in the belly, stemming the brisket, tell me what I need to know. Give it to me in the belly go on. Tell me. Now having language around, it sets the expectations. But it makes it okay. To say something, it makes it professional, not political. So as long as the understanding the collective understanding is that it's the commitment is to get better every day, to be the best that we can be as a group and as individuals, and that we are contributing to each other. We're not slagging each other off. As long as it's within it's everything is framed with that you can say what you want. If you say to your partner, you've got spinach in your teeth, and I think they're trying to bring you down, then it's not a good result. But if, but if you're about to walk into a party, and you say you got spinach in your teeth, that's a contribution. Right? So timing is everything. [SB8]
And and culture and context is everything. But I think it's really interesting when you start to look at some of the groups I've seen do this really well, language plays a part. So a couple of examples partly from research, partly from from from experience, they the red arrows, the display team, for the for the Air Force over here in the UK, when they debrief, they debrief, brutally, you know, like they flying within inches of each other at brick speeds, and if something goes wrong, goes really wrong. Now, they've had some real cultural issues lately, within their group, but separate from that. They maintain their flight numbers when they debrief. So it's like red one red to read three or whatever, whatever the flight numbers are, to keep it professional, not personal, so they can say what needs to get set in toto Wolff in Mercedes, PETRONAS, in that formula, one group, they there was a phrase, I think I'm getting it right, something like, the process is the problem that people aren't the problem, or the people aren't the problem, the process the processes the problem. If something goes wrong, it's really easy to blame, blame an individual. But if you're a joined up team, what's falling apart in the process, that the the the fracture happened to happen at the point of that individual? Right? It assumes that every individual is doing the best that they can be and is highly capable. And it provides a context of respect for people's contribution. And it doesn't get into finger pointing in quite the same way as it would if you go Okay, listen, it failed at x point with such and such. But why? Why did that happen? Well, you know, it was probably an upstream mistake or miscalculation that led to the pressure that leads that mistake. where it matters often. So creating some language around it makes a big difference. And then you can say, right, then I think I think the other aspect is sort of around personal sense of belonging, if you think that, say, a rugby team, if you think that, so so if you pick a rugby team on form only, and it's always on form, are they playing? Well? Well, that's a really insecure place to play from. Because you know that if you have one bad game, or you drop the ball, maybe you don't get pets next Saturday, maybe you're out. One of the greatest fears for human beings, as social ostracism is being dropped, has been fired, is losing our part of something that we want to be part of, that's a massive, massive fear. If if, if you're always being judged, just on one thing, right, then then you will avoid conflict, you will avoid risk, you know, you will try to minimize that personal risk. But if you feel safe and secure in your place, but all blacks again, I'm using them as a lot as an example. But you know, there's a joke, there was a joke, at one point, at least, that it was more difficult to get dropped than to get in, once you're in, you're kind of in, you're part of that group, you're in that group, it's your place to lose, right, but but not if you have one bad game, you're a project. So if you look at, say the example of Dan Carter, who, in four years played very, very few tests for the All Blacks between 2011 and 2015, clearly, one of the greatest players of all time anyway, but he got injured before 2011 He was in and out of the team, they held on to him, they did a lot of the press, were going ice had his days shot, you know, come on, it's time to move on, we've got other players to move on. And they held and they they trusted him and they trusted him they trusted because he was the man of the match in the 2015 World Cup final his last game, you know and a game changer. You know, always a game changer and exceptional. Clearly one of the exceptional players maintain the faith wasn't it was on class not form. And, and I think often what happens in particularly happens a lot in the UK, because the press is so powerful here that the press will champion players and they will turn against players and and then that will get to the board or the sponsors, the sponsors will have a quiet word afterwards to the to the coach or to so or their selection panel. And oh, we'd better chop and change we better chop and change. So the level of insecurity that that creates, for your player base, there's there's a psychologist were a couple of psychologists have said something John Bowlby said, what people need is a secure base from which to boldly venture, a secure base from which to boldly venture if, as leaders we can create a secure base for people to take chances both off the field in Hey GAFA that I don't think that formation is working for us. Those kind of conversations, it but it also reflects on the field. Because you're more likely to tap and go you're more likely to to take a chance you're more likely to boldly venture, if you feel that you're not going to get crushed if it all goes wrong. So reading that room and creating that space, you know, in psychology, they talk about being a container for your clients, you know, creating that space. And there's a there's a wonderful word in the Pacific islands called VA, VA. In Samoa. The sacred objects are called fine mats. And Fall means the space between you know the interconnectedness between a group and the the sacred mat or the fine mats demarcate that space that they threaded together. One of the phrase one of the words for leader in Maori is is Ranga, Terra, which means Weaver, the Weaver together of people and creating that space being a container for that space that people are part of that people belong to, I think create some of those preconditions for uninhibited performance on and off the field and that ability to speak truth to power to say what needs to be said to put your hand up and say I screwed up. Right? You know, how do you create that psychological safety not so they're around feels warm and fluffy, but the people feel able to be raw and vulnerable. And that's a that's a that's a that's a skill. That's a talent, I think a leadership talent and a very, very important one in a particularly important one now because the world has changed different generations coming up different expectations, around around voice and around. Inclusion and all of all of these things. seems to create to be a container for everybody to be able to be vulnerable, because invulnerability this huge stream. That's my kind of I feel like it's the Sermon on the Mount. But I hopefully that kind of at least indicate some areas to think about.
Paul Barnett 45:19
James, if I could just finish by asking you one final question. And before I ask it, I'd like to play back a quote I've heard you use on multiple occasions, actually. And it's from Pericles, when he said, our achievements aren't written on stone monuments, they are woven into the lives of others. And it made me think you've had so much acclaim from your book and the work you do with organizations. But what is it that you hope is the legacy that you're leaving with people through your work?
James Kerr 45:55
I'm kind of persuaded, I think, by a kind of humanistic psychology, the idea that, that what drives human beings is that desire to self actualize, to individuate, to nature's term to become what we're capable of becoming. And that and that, if leaders can create the environment, the space in which they are a servant of their team, I guess so resource to their team, in order to enable professional and performative and personal growth, to take place, everyone wins, a the team's win. You know, that is a winning combination for teams I've ever had people grow from within, it's the capability and the capacity and the and the competitiveness of that group will grow. This does, but also creates a It's a legacy of leadership for those leaders, you know, there is nothing more satisfying, I think, for leaders than to create than to watch their progeny go off and, and prosper, you know, I guarantee that Bobby Fulton was hugely proud of Ricky Stewart. You know, because you're Ricky was a young, you know, a young back, you know, in 1990 euro for the kangaroos when I was there. And then he went on to do what he's done in League, and has become not just a great coach, but a great man. And I think that I think there's something that is beyond sport, and beyond business, which is almost anthropological, which is our contribution to those others in our life. You know, do we make a contribution to others in our life, can we touch, contribute to other lives, you know, it's not written on stone monument, it's woven to the lives of others, those others that we met, that we meet along the way, if we can have a positive impact on, you know, those we come across, you know, I had a I had a health issue a couple of years ago, and it was a little bit dicey. And I had to it was during COVID, it wasn't COVID, but it was during COVID. And I had a long wait before going in for an operation, like, nearly two weeks, I was sitting there thinking is this a, I went into, you know, life flashes before in slow motion, life flashes before your eyes, and you go, Well, what's all been about and, you know, really, without sounding like a kind of a cheesy Hallmark card, you know, it's kind of doing the my kind of book formulation of is doing the stuff you love with the people you love, is kind of what it's about. That's what I remembered at least. And you go well, what are those shared moments, those shared experiences with people you feel deeply connected with? And so I guess and answer with again, without seeming too corny and hallmark is that, you know, I'd like to touch people's lives, make a contribution, share something with them, whether that's work with groups and with teams, you know, I love that those those peak moments, but some of those conversations, and I think in the writing side of things, I think helping people become what they're capable of becoming a little bit, you know, beginning beginning a conversation with themselves so that they are able to the book I'm writing at the moment, some of the stories I've told you about about Lester and some of those, I'm hoping to weave into it, but there's that kind of what I would call kind of leading from within, you know, finding what we really stand for, you know, what, what our ethos is, you know, our ethos of our values of our vision of our purpose. And for each of us, it's going to be very, very different. And I guess helping people unlock that in themselves, and going forward and living leechers term again, becoming what they're capable of becoming, if I could leave that out there. Then back to that selflessness, it's not so hopeless i The payoff for me, but that is huge. You know, I get huge deep satisfaction from putting that kind of work out there. So I would hope I'm able to, to make that kind of contribution to the groups I work with and and to people who read an audience because I speak to.
Paul Barnett 50:25
Great. I guess you get asked that legacy question a lot, but I have never heard you answer it so articulately and, or eloquently, and I can only thank you for spending an hour with us tonight and taking us through your amazing story so far. I know the new book is coming out later in the year. And I think we'd love we'd love to get you back on to talk a little bit more about
James Kerr 50:46
Well, listen, I'd love to I'll just finish it first. I've got to get the get the typing done, but it's well underway. It's called ethos and it's it's really going more deeply into into character and a little bit more into some of the how that we might work with with teams and with ourselves to kind of lead groups for high performance. So but I'd love to do that. It's been a real pleasure talking today. Thank you very much for having me.
Paul Barnett 51:14
Thanks, James.