Jess Thirlby edit
Mon, Jun 03, 2024 7:13AM • 1:00:36
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaching, team, feel, world cup, role, learned, environment, trust, players, needed, sport, world, decision, challenge, brilliant, netball, norma, england, expectation, group
SPEAKERS
Jess Thirlby, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Just it'll be good morning to you over there. Well, I won't say where you are. And welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Jess Thirlby 00:08
Good morning. I'm so privileged that you've invited me on like, it's one of my faves on my podcast list when I'm driving the lengths and depths of the UK. So yeah, thank you so much to invite me on.
Paul Barnett 00:18
Yes. Tell us where are you in the world? And what have you been up to so far today?
Jess Thirlby 00:22
I am sat in Loughborough. So Loughborough is kind of home for us as a racist program. And we're midway through a five day camp just prior to Lincoln up next week for our series against South Africa. So yeah, a big big day ahead of training and meetings and play a one to ones and stuff staff meeting. So this is a nice way to start the day. So I'm grateful for that. Yes,
Paul Barnett 00:44
we should talk about it really quickly, then, because you're coming up, you're versing. If that's the right word, your mentor, normal plumber, and just a couple of weeks, and by the time this goes to hear the results will be in so I can't wait to see what happens.
Jess Thirlby 00:57
I know, let's say Yeah, she'll be definitely going into take our scalp. I know, I know that having no normal little while now. And yeah, I absolutely love Norma and everything that she stands for. So it'll be a weird way for us to really connect. But yeah, it'll be brilliant to have her over on our shores. And yeah, as you say, when this goes out, let's say that I'm still smiling as I am now.
Paul Barnett 01:18
Or just let's talk about some of the great coaches. You've worked with. Lynn Gunson, who gets talked a lot about people mentioned her name a lot when it comes to netball, trying to get her on the show. There's no more plumber animes and Jan Crabtree, I mean, there's four big, big names of netball right there and some of your contemporaries have gone on to be great coaches to like Tamsin Greenway. But I'm wondering, from this experience working with these legendary coaches up close, what do you think the Great Ones do differently that sets them apart?
Jess Thirlby 01:50
Yeah, I mean, it's such a great question. And, like thinking about that through both the lens as a performer, so obviously, Lynn was my coach. And, as was Jan, and, and then really, my workings with both Norma and Anna are very different. You know, they they're, they're almost colleagues and we've obviously co coach myself and Anna. So I guess, two ways of looking at it really to try and answer that question like through the lens of a player. I remember Lynn Lynn, by far has had the biggest impact on me both as a player and a coach. And a lot of that really was done without me realizing like I think for most probably the first 10 years have been fortunate enough to work with Lynn. I think it was this kind of implicit ability for her to kind of focus on mines and attention as performers, in areas that we most probably had never really looked at in the same way. So I often try to I'm not very good at articulating it. But those first few kind of sessions that I had with Lynne, when she came over to Team bar, if you were watching from a balcony, you would just see it as a relatively straightforward simple netball session doing relatively simple looking things. And at the time, I'd been in kind of England age groups. And I've always been a very open book, a massive sponge when it comes to learning. So he was really enjoying kind of a new perspective, at that point in my playing career. And I used to get on the train on the way home and I used to write everything down that we'd done. Like, that's just me. I mean, that's, I've got 1000s of notebooks. Now I'm coaching. So yeah, I think it was just her ability to kind of take something that felt so normal and make it feel so groundbreaking. And I think there's just a very, it's very skillful. I think from a coaching perspective, and a receiver of that type of coaching. It was just while she was focusing my mind, and it was like uncovering a whole new area to your game. And yet you would do in what felt like very familiar, similar things. And so yeah, I'd been the receiver of that I found that like a really I was really curious around how was she making me feel like that. And most probably for the years thereafter, not knowing where my journey was going to head in terms of becoming a coach. That that's that led to just a curiosity. So I think my my appreciation for the coaches I had was fundamentally instilling in me a curiosity to learn and to gain knowledge. And to almost be an all speak to this most probably in terms of my coaching, but to be made to feel like anything was possible, and actually, that the potential that we will have is far greater than we will have give ourselves credit for and it's, it's okay and give yourself permission to just explore that. So I've really enjoyed being coached by the likes of Lynn and I think then when I think of it through the lens of a coach now and people that I've worked either alongside or as you say, invited to become become kind of part of my psychologically safe community of experts really, I guess, in terms of Norma is just around like the firmness but the fairness. You know, I think obviously, people like linen numerous so experienced, that they can speak from a place of real confidence and knowledge. And it's evidence based. And, you know, I will never have as much of that, because they're always going to be decades ahead, and I think, but both of them really are very firm, but fair, but also help, that they're brilliant and helping you to both see the learning in it, but also care and attention that they pay. And I think, you know, that's clearly going to have had a big influence on how I like to think I go about my interactions within the environments that I'm now leading, you know, like, you have to be firm in this world of high performance. But that the way in which you do it means everything and I think you can still be, you can still be full of care and make somebody feel important. Even in those toughest of moments, when, as we all know, we have to deal with sharing information or selection or, you know, just telling home truths, and that's not always comfortable, but it's much needed, then it's a necessity.
So yeah, I think for me, it's the humility of people with such great knowledge, understanding, and their willingness to actually share it. I think, I think the great coaches are a brilliant because they want others to learn from their learnings. And so even when it's been outside of my own sport, Brian Ashton, who's obviously coaching rugby, he's another mentor of mine. They're so willing to share and impart their knowledge. And I don't think everyone does that. But it definitely for me separates the great from the good. And I'm certainly a product of of people like that being so kind with with their knowledge. And yeah, that's, that's kind of my experience through two slightly different lenses, I guess.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 06:35
Well, you had this great experience, and then you promptly retire at 26 and become a coach. And your first time as a head coach was with the Celtic dragons. When you took them over, they were bottom of the league. And I imagine the morale around the place was not so great. But I'm wondering if you can cast your mind back, because of course, it wasn't that long ago. What do you remember finding most challenging from that experience?
Jess Thirlby 07:06
Yeah, I mean, there's most probably a few, a few things to share with you. One, morale actually wasn't low, because I am truly grateful for opportunities like that. So I was transitioning, I'd started my coaching journey, even when I was playing. So from like, 19, or 20, under the kind of tutor tutelage of Lynn, really. And as part of my journey through the UK Sport program, I was already curious. So I was doing what I would now call quite transactional coaching. And I was, I would do as much as I could, as well as playing at the highest level. And as I kind of made that decision of Do you know what I'm going to, I am going to call it time on playing because I had been fortunate to play for England, through all the age groups and right through to the Commonwealth Games in Manchester, and a few years thereafter. And I kind of I think I'd maxed my potential, and I needed to kind of accept that I can keep going, I was a good trainer, I did everything I was told. And I just thought that it's got me where I've got to, and I'm just not sure I'm going to get any further. So why don't I just give each and everything I've got and see whether or not you know what that's got in store for me, if I give it the same effort, and intensity, and commitment. And so to get that call quite early on, I kind of assisted with Team bath first. And then got got a call from the performance director from Welsh netball, who would have noticed, I guess that I was clearly looking for a career in coaching an opportunity. So firstly, I'm incredibly grateful, because I think that was a big leap of faith from them. You'll know just just because you've played doesn't make you a great coach. There's no guarantees of that. So I think that was a really big leap of faith of them in me. And so I think the most challenging bit in lots of ways was around the expectation and pressure that I put on myself, to kind of make sure I felt a duty to help that club to become better. And for me to have an impact in as quick as possible time as I could. Now I learned most probably too late after the first five, six years of coaching. I was always in a rush. Like, I don't know where that came from. But I think in my effort and want to have impact on behalf of others that I was working with. I was always in a rush. You know, like if it if it wasn't immediate, maybe that's a bit of societal now as well. But if it wasn't immediate, I didn't feel like I was doing a good job. And so I think it was the pressure really came from me, because I think because of the I guess the state of play for that club at the time. They they made me feel incredibly welcome. And they showed a lot of trust and faith in me actually which really could have only been based on my playing experience at that point because in all honesty, there wasn't I had coached and I've coached other national teams and I've done a great job at Team bath with you know, the university side but these weren't these weren't high level Yeah, so I kind of felt like I owed it to them to return that as best I could by by doing the best job I could. The reality was my scope of knowledge as to the how to coach was most probably still very limited.
And I do feel sorry for any players and teams that I coached in those first few years because I felt like in my efforts, I just shared everything I knew. But most probably was lacking a little bit of the How to impart that in a really effective way. So yeah, they would have been the receivers of like tons of information like this is, this is what I think this is what I saw, this is why it's the same, it's probably were very patient with me. And I'm also quite a, I consider myself quite a creative thinker. So they would have been on the receiving end of some all sorts of what I would like to call innovative ideas, but most probably were just a bit messy, to be honest. So it was it was a great, it was a great experience for me to kind of start to explore in action at the coalface because Superleague is not easy. And as you say, to, to be with a team where they have yet to experience what winning is like, my sole purpose was, I wanted to find a way for them to believe that they were capable. And to help get some evidence of that. And yes, that, you know, results do matter. And the fact that we got a couple of wins that year, and we didn't finish bottom of the league, even in that first year, for me is a massive win. Like I think that's a success. And whilst I was only there for one, one season, to leave them, having started that journey, I think is something that I, you know, I hold really dearly. And I hope it in some small way, I hope I just helped to mobilize that team in that club to understand that they are capable, that they do belong. And actually to obviously just keep dreaming having big ambition moving forward, and they are still here. [PB2]
And you know, they have a nosey now and your Macintosh is just taking them on. So when you think about big ambition, you know, yes, time has passed. But I think Yeah, I absolutely loved it, I felt a duty to them. I'm grateful for the belief and trust that they had in me for taking a bit of a leap of faith in me and for kind of, yeah, being tolerant of most probably a lot of a lot of scatter gunning in my early days of coaching. But yeah, it was it was a great experience. Yeah, I'm very grateful my other legacy actually was leaving them with rather than these. That, I mean, I'm not trying to be horrible, but the kit they had when I arrived, it wasn't the best. So I left them with a very proud green kit to represent them Welsh dragon. And that's a legacy in itself. So I'm as I'm as proud of that, as I am a few wins.
Paul Barnett 12:34
You're getting there too early, I'm gonna come to the legacy question at the end. So you've still got it ahead of you. But I want to ask you, because from there, you get into I think you were in the first batch of people that went through the UK, elite sport coaching program. And I'm wondering, I've heard such wonderful things about this program. I'm wondering how it's shaped you and just pushed you further along as a coach.
Jess Thirlby 13:01
Yeah, I mean, it's, I 100% can confirm what an What a brilliant experience for me it was all about timing, I think for me, so firstly, you know, for the for my governing body to nominate me for such a program was a strong indicator in the belief that they may be hiding my potential in coaching now, that means a lot to me. And again, I wanted to represent the sport as best I could. So I've always had this kind of duty, that and responsibility that I feel in representing both the game and obviously the roses. And I think for Yeah, so I got nominated. And it was such a rigorous selection process to go through and I'm not gonna lie, I would have been like a rabbit in headlights through that whole selection process, because I hadn't really yet been coaching full time. So I was kind of it was a it was a bit. I was uncertain really as to what what this was, but just went for it anyway, like I'm a big believer for that you're never going to feel fully ready. So just have a go and let somebody else make the decision. And found myself on this cohort, as you say, I think it was the second year of this program. And it was a three year program designed really to accelerate people that showed potential for high performance roles in high performance sport that could be performance directorship, it could be head coaches, and found myself in a room you know, like week long residentials with nine other fantastic people. And at that point, you know, definitely having big impostor syndrome around why am I sat in this room because I looked around the table with the likes of Danny Carey and Tony Mina cello and, you know, all of these coaches who had already proven their worth in the field of coaching, they were already successful in their own right, had led teams and individuals to Olympic success. And I just I think the exposure to both the formal but I would say the informal learning environment. So a really skillfully designed program we're actually the space between During the formal presentations, you know, the facilitators that came in, it was the time between that, that I actually will always treasure and very much try to create now with either the staff or player groups that I'm working with getting that balance between formal and informal learning, you know, to sit around dinner tables, chewing the fat, and just listening, you know, the storytelling of so many others that, and I didn't feel like had anything to offer them. You know, in the, in the years through the programming thereafter, you know, I would be told differently, and I guess sometimes when you're a bit new and a bit naive to something that you think a bit differently as well. So hopefully, I offered a bit of, I don't know, different type of thinking and questions and my curiosity played out. So I think exposure to other people on a similar journey in terms of the level, but not necessarily similar in terms of the knowledge and understanding that we had of coaching and our role as coaches to be to be fully supported by UK Sport. And what I mean by that isn't just a financial, but you know, to have people that guided you and signposted you to the people, places environments, outside of sport, you know, most of those weeks were spent interacting with people from business, from other sports, from health care, you know, from music, it was just the most incredible experience at exactly the right time for me in my coaching journey. And also even just chronologically, you know, I was I was young enough to almost just be a student all over again. And it was just brilliant. And I again, you know, you asked me at the start, what sets the great from the good and the kindness and willingness of people to share sometimes what were really personal stories and experiences that they're coaching, I think then gives almost me permission now to make sure that I'm doing the same. And that degree of vulnerability, as I know is quite topical over the last decade or so is okay, it's actually needed. And I think because it was so intimate, and it was so safe. I really appreciated people's being so willing to share, the ups and the downs actually have coaching. And I guess because it was so new for me, it prepared me well, most probably to understand where some of those potential speed bumps would come. And that doesn't mean I've got it right. It doesn't mean it's perfect. You have to experience it to really learn yourself. But yeah, it was a fantastic opportunity, let alone the kind of knowledge and expertise that we learned from outside of sport, and the connections that you then keep hold of, and invest in thereafter. So yeah, it hugely shaped me. And it's, I feel like whenever I've set programs up or environments, or when we talk about communities of learning very much, I will still to this day reference back to what I believe worked well, in that experience, and what of that serves me and others well, to this current day. So yeah, he again, hugely grateful for that.
Paul Barnett 17:56
But you have that experience, you come back to Team bath, three Super League titles follow, we'll just jump over how wonderful that is. Because I want to get to the England job. And what I find fascinating is you, you came in after this golden period. You know, it's so it must have been? Well, I don't know what it was, I want to ask you about what was it like, coming into that experience, the team had won the gold at the Commonwealth and silver at the World Cup. And I'm wondering now, as you reflect on the way you manage yourself through that transition, what do you what advice do you give to others when they're transitioning into new tunes? Yeah,
Jess Thirlby 18:39
I think it was, it was such a surreal period, actually. Because if you allow me to just go back before I come forward, I'd had been at bath for almost 20 years as a player, and then obviously, as a coach, pretty much half in half. And during that time, I'd also coached within the England programs through the kind of pathways and with the national team in certain technical roles. And I'd made a decision actually, in the previous autumn. So 2018 That I would, I would step away from that role I'd kind of felt like I'd given all of myself for for 20 years. And yeah, it just felt like the right time. And that was a really big decision to make because obviously it's a place that was it meant a lot to me, I'd obviously wanted to continue the legacy that Lynn had left and elevate that and make sure that you know team both would live long into into the Netball future here. And it was a big decision. So I didn't actually make that decision with a view of where and what I would do next. And I wasn't looking in the you know, the employment pages trying to search what that would be. I knew I loved coaching like 100% I knew I loved coaching but it was such a big decision. It felt right to give it some time in space. And for me to also give myself a little bit of decompression coming out of some Then, in an environment that I've done for so long, so many people don't believe that, because of the way it then played out, they think I had some grand plan. And unfortunately, I'm not very good with grand plans for myself, I'm good with plans, or the team. But it's not something I'm not particularly ego driven in that way and hadn't. Some people will say stupid, I think I genuinely needed that time in space, I wanted to really think quite clearly around what next and get excited about that. So I kind of left in the May or June and, you know, I'd bought my tickets for the World Cup like any other fan, and I was taking the family up to watch those games. And I guess not long after thinking I was, you know, now living off the breadline for a little bit. And my poor husband had kind of told me how long we most probably had before I would have to sort myself out. And within a few weeks, really of the Super League season ending, like I found out along with the rest of the world, and was equally surprised when I heard that Tracy wasn't going to be continuing in the role. I think I was doing the school run, you know, and other people were messaging me saying, oh, have you seen the news, Tracy's stepping down. And, again, people don't believe that they think I knew, I genuinely didn't know. And whilst others were kind of putting two and two together, and you know, quite, I guess close friends and colleagues would be like, Oh, are you gonna go for it? That wasn't even on my radar. Like, it just genuinely wasn't on my radar. One because I, I had just assumed Tracy would be in that role for longer given as you say the success and I know how much she loved that job. And yeah, I just hadn't associated myself with it. And I'd only really just started the first few weeks of school running, not having to like, Coach every day and was just trying to navigate that space. So yeah, had a few kind of nudges and prompts from from close friends and colleagues and had a conversation with Sara Simonton, who was the performance director who really was just I assume I was one of many, you know, scoping out, is it something that I would consider, and I had to sit with that really for a little bit because it was just so out of kilter with where I like the rhythm that I think I was about to head into. So I spoke to people like Brian and I needed a bit of help with my brain, I was in a bit of brain fog. And actually, it was brilliant, because during those conversations, I remember Brian who's a he's a northerner, and very much as I said before, it actually shares some similar characteristics with Norma, you know, like, just cut to the crap. And just say, he's like, why wouldn't you go for it, everything you've done up until this point has prepared you to do this role and do it really well. Why wouldn't you? It was really in that I've never forgotten that. And he's abrupt, but he's really caring. And I just thought, yeah, he's right. Like, you know, I haven't done those things to do the job. Because it's one roll, right? You see the right place, right time, you know, sometimes your face doesn't fit. If you strive for that, you're going to feel like you failed your whole life. So that wasn't really my driver. But when he said that, it kind of it just cleared the fog. And I thought, yeah, I've always I've always gone for things. If I feel and care passionately about the team or the direction of travel, why wouldn't I go for it? And if I'm not right, somebody will write right now somebody will let me know. But why wouldn't I just do it? And I didn't want to have any regrets, really. So I guess I quite quickly turned my mindset rounds. You're right, I'm just gonna give it my best shot. And we'll see how we how we go. And you know, when I did think about the experiences I'd gathered over a period of time, I was actually quite well prepared. I love I love the England team. I love the roses, I feel passionately about the untapped potential that we have still, to try and uncover more and sustained success on the global stage. So I think that's why I've always had so many different roles within the program, because I care about it. I care about the system being better. I think the players have huge capacity that we've just not found a way to harness consistently. And so yeah, you know, I made that transition. It was ironic, you know, I'm watching in the stands with my children in Liverpool. At that point, not everyone, you know, not everyone that has a bit of an exaggeration, people would stop me and you know, the rumor mill was going, Oh, you're going to be the next England coach. And at that point, I had no idea of the outcome of of interview. So I was genuinely there not knowing what the future held. So it was it was a really surreal moment. And then yeah, I got the call not long after the World Cup. And, you know, from August 2019, you know, I'd only finish with Superleague in May or June and I thought I was I don't know what I thought I was gonna have to do and still kind of Christmas but found myself in this incredible role, which was yeah, it was just it was just brilliant, really, and I haven't looked back since and I've I'd like to think I've thrown everything at trying to help, you know, springboard off of that success. Because as you say, I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced. How many people would have really wanted the gig then I'm not gonna lie because I think that They would have definitely been some people that they like, they would have liked the idea of the job. And then the reality is, as you say, of the landscape at the time, I'm not sure if everybody went for it, because I think the pressure of expectation that then because we'd have been in one final in one, one gold, which was brilliant, wouldn't change it, the best thing that could happen for the game and for us, but because of that, as you'll understand, and in particular, I think, sport in England, and in the UK, you win one, everyone expects you to win them forever. And, you know, it's just apparently, you know, there's just meant to be a pipeline of gold medals from there on in. So I think that kind of weight of expectation is, I guess, it's, it's, some people are up for that, and I'm not sure if some people would have been, they really mostly just like to pass that off. And, you know, potentially see if somebody else wants to kind of pick that up. And if it doesn't work out, you know, maybe then they'll come in after and I just thought you can't, you can't think like, you know, you can't, you can't disrespect an England coaching role. If you want to do it, and you believe you can make a difference, and you believe the team are capable, you've got to give it your best shot. And if I didn't go for it, then I may not ever get that opportunity again. So for me, it was just something to not let pass by at all. And so I was happy to take that on. I think I, I noticed in myself that there's no such thing in my world as a too hard basket, there's just no such thing, I find it very difficult if I'm working in environments where you know, the, the climate and the culture is very much like, oh, it's bit hard. I just don't see it too hard basket, they, for me, it was like, I'm gonna grab it, I'm gonna give it my best shot. You know, like, that's all I can do, and hope that it will make a big, you know, make a big difference over time. So, yeah, it's, um, it's been interesting, you know, and I definitely, you know, as much as like, it would have been hard to manage the expectation, it was also something to be embraced and celebrated. Because I've played in England teams where we're not expected to win. In fact, I've played in England teams for a long time, and watched England teams where they walk on to court against an Australian, New Zealand and you already know the result of the game, it's just by how many are we going to lose? And that's not like, that's not okay. So, I think the fact that we'd had some success on a global stage, and as you say, picking up the bronze in Liverpool at the, you know, to have that Home World Cup. So soon after winning the gold, I mean, just the, the tangible, to be in arenas where you could feel see and hear the difference that that gold medal it made, was brilliant, really. And I know the team were disappointed to get a bronze in in Liverpool, because of that expectation. So that kind of was a good scene set for me, you know, expectation of ourselves is high, that's okay. And expectations of others on us is going to be high. And that's also okay. And actually, we can't have it both ways. You know, like, when you're trying to break into the top two in the world, and you want to place around that table, you then can't shy away from the expectation that you and others have of the team, you've got to find a way to keep going forward and not avoid it. So I was up for that I'm up for that challenge. I'm still up for that challenge. I think we're making you know, our trajectories and going in the right direction. And I think the global game is exactly where it needs to be headed. Really, you know, like more competition margins are smaller than ever, you know, it's unrecognizable, really, to a decade or so ago. And hopefully, really healthy for the game, you know, like, because I'm sure Australia, New Zealand don't want that. I'm sure they want to keep winning and dominate. But for the game, it's the right thing. And we're going to be on the losing end and the winning side of that. And that if that means that you know, the top 5678 are getting stronger, then I do think as a product that is much needed for the sport. So yeah, but big transition completely unexpected in terms of timing. I think when you talk about, you know, obviously coming in it's such a successful time. Yes, you know, and I think that team in 2018, I've been fortunate enough to work with a big proportion of those is under 21 athletes and in the England setup and Cook Island world, World Cup World Youth Cup, and they were really ripe for success. I was so pleased for that generation of players to actually make their mark, because it had been kind of 10 years in the making, really, but the system underneath that, and the lack of depth underneath that particular group was scary, really. So the expectation was so high that we would just keep hitting goals, but it was against the backdrop of a system and a and a lack of depth really that that were worlds apart. So that was my biggest challenge coming in is I knew that I had that guilty knowledge. You don't want to dampen the fan base from from the very thing. They've waited a whole lifetime to be able to get behind, but it is still and will take huge amounts of work. And we've definitely made a shift got more more definitely got more depth of talent now. But we've got some way to go because there are our opposition have strengths and structures and systems that we don't quite have. And we have different strengths. And we're in some ways back in way above the resources and the systems that we have currently, and are still able to, you know, compete better year on year. So we just need to Yeah, just keep being pretty creative with how we do that. And, and be very proud actually, of, of the work that's gone on not just the last four or five years. But the last decade or so I think, you know, we are starting to turn the tide a little bit.
Paul Barnett 30:38
Jess, I'd like to ask a question about your style. And before I do that, I'd like to play back a quote from you, you say? You say working with such a diverse group feels natural and right. But we will come with its challenges. We all think a bit differently. But I invite being challenged and don't want Yes, people that just agree with what I say. And I can see you nodding along, as I say it's the challenge part that caught my eye. And what I wanted to ask you, there'll be people listening, that think I wish I could get my team to challenge me more with what am I doing? What can I do differently? To get more of that? When I go to work in my team, my community group, wherever it is, and I'm curious to hear what you would say to those people? Where would you start if you want it to be more challenged?
Jess Thirlby 31:32
I think it's I think you have to set up an environment and lead and demonstrate that yourself. I think I think when people when we hear the word challenge, I think it's sometimes I think for many people that's seen as a negative word. And I think it's something that people are fearful of. And I think that's just something that we've most probably inherited over time. Again, not not necessarily sports specific, but just generally in society. And I'm a big believer that I think challenge is really healthy, it's actually necessary. I think maybe where some of us trip up is is in the setting up of an environment and the timing of it and the way in which we challenge and understanding and being sensitive to the one in the why we're doing it. And I think so I think if you can set a culture of learning up in your environment that challenges part of that, that I mean, that's just the reality, it's it goes hand in hand with celebrating strengths, you know, you also have to be able to be challenged in order to learn and grow. And I think if you can set, set it up and frame it in that way, and then be more skillful around the interactions piece, and that psychologic being psychologically safe, to both give and receive feedback and challenge and know it's coming from a really good place with good intent, then for me, it has to just come back to seeing that as an opportunity to learn. We don't always get that right. You know, like, we're complex humans, you know, and when you're in a team environment, you know, you might think that you've really thought a difficult conversation through or you've got some feedback that you're unsure as to how that's going to land, I'll always try to ask permission, I'll often say, are you ready to receive? Or is it okay? If I share some observations? I think just asking that in any team environment, and in any environment really is so important, because we never know, do we what's going on for somebody else, we don't know. You know that you know how something's going to land. We don't know if something's happened at home. And you know, this piece of feedback is just going to tip people over the edge and on a different day, at a different time, it would be they'd be much more open. [PB3]
So I think you have to just take a long, hard look at how you're setting your environment really? And am I showing those behaviors and characteristics that I hope that I want from others? Because sometimes, like I can catch myself in that in coaching and leadership, you know, sometimes when you make space to reflect on your own behaviors is that actually that's a mirror of me, you know, like that, often with teams, they are a mirror of your energy, they are a mirror mirror of your mindset. And I think being really aware of that is massively important in any type of leadership and coaching role. And often the things that might start to feel unhelpful in a space. The first thing I will do is just reflect back on myself, what was my role in that? Is there anything that I've done that might have been encouraging that and sometimes it's inaction that might be causing that as well. [PB4]
So I think Challenge is a necessity how it's done needs to be thought through and skillful and I think asking permission of others if they're ready to receive it, I think is a really well I've always learned is a really great way to start a conversation. And often it means that that's done with care. But it also means that that feedback doesn't needs to take place if we're to get better. And again, that's the bit I'm saying, if this is all based on, fundamentally connecting us back to our ambition as a team, then you and I should be okay to hear it, you know, you know D personalizing it, I think is really important. And also allowing, I think, allowing each other a bit of time to decompress and sit with some, you know, some challenge, you don't have to necessarily come straight back to that, I think, I've definitely fallen short of appearing, maybe defensive at times when I receive it, because I care so much about something or because maybe I'm feeling a little bit threatened by I haven't done a good job. But I have to just take the personalisation bit out of it, and I just have to listen, really listen and hear what it is that somebody is trying to share with me and trust that that person is actually fundamentally trying to help me. [PB5]
You know, it's, it's, you know, in some ways, very similar to conversations you have with athletes on feedback, you know, you may not, you may not hear what you want to hear, but you're hearing what somebody believes you need to hear in order to move forward and get better. And sometimes I just think I've thought much more about the lead in and lead out of conversations that may feel tricky, where we're going to share some feedback that, that means it wasn't it has been perfect, but this is what we're trying to get to better and allowing time in and out and others allowing me some time as well, you know, like sharing some feedback, and then sitting with it for a little bit and then setting up an environment where you've made time to, because I think sometimes in our environments, everything's so fast paced, isn't it? And I think sometimes you skim across stuff for you don't make time for the things that are actually going to make the biggest difference. So I would, I would encourage it, I would make sure that we listen trust that it's coming from a good place.
Be curious about the learning that's, that's most probably in there when when you feel challenged. And where possible, just try to de personalize it and recognize just be quite self aware how you write reacting and responding to challenge. Is that about what's been said? Or is it just about something, you need to work on a little bit around your ability to receive it? But yeah, don't I mean, just don't be fearful of it. But I genuinely do. And I did say that in that quote around, it will be hard.
You know, like if you if you intentionally invite people into the room or into your team, knowing that they think differently, behave differently to you, some of which makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, because it's just not who I am. But it's who they are. But that's the whole point, isn't it? I love one of the things I've always valued from my times in timber, is the fact that we call ourselves a bunch of misfits when Lin first came over. Because in every sense of the word, or netball, in Germany, we were all over the place. Some of us been in an England program out of it never been in it, you know, she just we just got picked and dropped in this amazing environment. Somebody made us really believe in ourselves. And then out of that you mentioned, Tamsin, I mean, there's so many examples of that environment who have gone on to continue to contribute back to the sport. So yeah, I just think you can't have your cake and eat it. You know, I mean, you're going to invite different people in in the room, you've got to be prepared to listen, and you've got to be prepared to learn something different from them. And there's no point in me surrounded myself with people who think like me is that just means it's a homogenous environment. And if I believe myself to be innovative, and creative, my own thoughts aren't going to be innovative and creative enough. So I need to bounce off other people. I've always enjoyed that. And so yeah, I would embrace challenge in challenge but be skillful with it, and and remember the human side of the environment that you're setting up so that people feel safe to do that. Really.
Paul Barnett 38:45
Just as you've matured as a leader, how have you learned to work more with your instincts?
Jess Thirlby 38:54
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think. One thing I've said I've learned about myself 100% is that if I go back to the too hard basket, and how I know I, even physiologically respond, or if somebody says we can't do something, I've learned that if my, if I push back on that, or I can't let something go, I've learned to really trust that because there's a there's a, there's a deep feeling of in me that says, it's worth pushing for that. And that and what I try to do is one I think I'm pretty good at recognizing that now. So if I feel strongly about something, if I find myself in a meeting or with the team, like really kind of trying to share passionately something I know it belongs somewhere what I tried to do to help others around me and where that's coming from is to link it back and make the connection. So why does just just feel so strongly about this or why we're doing that? Everything I do I try to make connections on behalf of others because sometimes play is kind of wasted to that. And that's my role sometimes stuff can't understand why he's just so feeling so strongly about interviews, something that might feel so small. But I always start with the destination in mind and work back. So if our destination is to win multiple goals, back to back goals in two major tournaments, if that's our destination, and then we went back right down to the micro and macro detail every day. It I promise you, it's because I'm thinking of that. [PB6]
And I have to sit with something and make sure I filter that because maybe sometimes, you know, it's just preference and I need to go no, just that's just your preference, you know, that that isn't going to serve the what the ambition of the team that's just about me. Okay, well, then let's get rid of that. But I think I've just learned and I think you know, courtside all the coaches that you've interviewed some brilliant coaches, right, you've, you've interviewed some world leading, far more successful than I have been yet in international roles, you know, you know, Norma and knowing, you know, huge track records, when when you caught sight, you're competing against people who are as knowledgeable if not more, so, or more experienced, so that that stuff, you know, you almost have to face the same I say to the players, you know, like, physically fitness wise, you're going to be matched and sometimes beaten, you know, like, so, that isn't really where the magic happens. You know, I'm a big believer that in terms of insert, and how you set things up, and intuition, are a really important edge to have. So I don't think it's something to be dismissive of, I think it's something to be trusted. And if all things that even, you know, like, if we're all really good coaches, if technically, we know our stuff, if tactically, we know our team, well, if we know the opposition inside out, if all those things even then intuition, and gut feel is important to listen to, right. Because it might be the one thing that sets us apart from the team and on the other end, or in the other color bibs.
So I have learned over time to trust my instinct. And I also know that I know myself well enough that it will always be coming from a place of care about the people. So as much as the output might hurt some people, I know that I'm doing it for the good of the team. And I absolutely feel very clear that my role is to Yes, care about every individual. But it's also to make difficult decisions that keep the team's best interests at the forefront. And you know, that's a daily thing, isn't it, that's a daily thing. You know, sometimes you care about the individual, but you have to make a decision that's right for the team. And as a result of that, that individual isn't hearing what they want to hear. But that's okay. Because I trust I trust my gut. And I also know to be true, that this is the right decision for the team. And that's most probably the only way that you can go to bed at night, you know, with a moral compass that feels okay. [PB7]
And I'm a big believer that one of my main drivers, when I came into this role was making sure that this team felt like they were winning, but winning deep. And what I mean by that is that sense of fulfillment and joy. So if we're fortunate enough to make it on a podium, you know, I've heard and seen and accounts from athletes in all sports, where it's sad, you know, like, you hear the stories of what we believe as a fan was the pinnacle of a career. And actually, they weren't happy, they didn't fulfill fulfilled, they had no sense of joy, in that moment, or in the journey up until that point, and I I don't think one has to be instead of the other, I think they can both be achieved. And I think it's really important that you were not trying to win at all costs. I don't think that's right. So it's really, it's a really important value to me that people feel joy along the journey to what our pinnacle moments that the world see. But the day and don't get me wrong, you know, like the day in, day out, we all know like, at this level, it's 90% slog, you know, like for that 10% of feeling brilliant, but, but you can still enjoy it, you can still enjoy the people around, you can still enjoy the slog, actually, as long as you feel like you've got that sense of camaraderie and that you feel pride in what you're doing and that you feel that everyone around you believes in your potential and your capability. [PB8]
So yeah, I, I've learned to trust myself a little bit more, because i I know myself well enough to know, it's coming from a place of really good intent. And, you know, I'm consumed daily by thinking of the needs of others. And so I know that so I just Yeah, I think absolutely intuition and trust, your gut instincts are so important. But it's one part, I guess, of the decision making process. And it's not everything, but I think when all things that even it can often be the thing that tips the balance, and more often than not can lead to, you know, success. So to trust in that. I think it's really important to have no regrets as well. I think it's really important if you've got to that point, or things or even you make a call. You know like you have to Trust you trust the process, it might the outcome might not happen, by the way. So you might, you might have made that decision based on instinct, and then you may not get the desired outcome. Does that mean that your instinct was wrong? No, not necessarily, because there's so many factors at play. So I also think it's important to be kind to yourself and be curious about it, if it doesn't get the desired outcome, but not necessarily to, to be overly hard on yourself, you know, but that maybe just go back and think was there's something missing in my decision making process? Or, you know, if I was to experience that, again, is there anything that I might do slightly differently? I guess, a long answer.
Paul Barnett 45:37
No, it's fascinating. Fascinating. I think one of the things I've learned from all these interviews is actually, to trust my intuition or, or put more differently is to be more aware of the feeling I'm having before I make a decision. And that's probably because in the business world, it's very logical, you sit down to go to logic. So I'm trying to tap into that center of myself a little bit more as I as I as I roll along through life. But speaking of trust, you did something really interesting this year. And it was actually when I spotted this in the press that I approached Norma to try and get your details. And it was, it was in New Zealand was early this year. And you stepped back from your role and one of your assistants took over Liana Liotta. Yeah, but you were there, you were still there. And I thought it was a wonderful public expression of your views on empowerment. But I'm wondering, was that easy to actually do?
Jess Thirlby 46:41
It was, well, going back to the answer to the last question, really, it was, it was easy for me to arrive at that decision based on a number of factors. So I, I feel like through my whole journey, I have been fortunate to work in an environment where I felt like I've been afforded autonomy, and being empowered to take on roles maybe before I'm experienced before, others may think I'm ready. And so I think I've been fortunate enough to be on the receiving end of that this is a very different time in landscape. So I'm not necessarily saying the two things are the same. But when you say was it hard, actually, because my processes and my planning, I'd like to think is so detailed, it was quite easy to get to that decision, actually. And there were a few things at play here. So like, much earlier in the year, you know, like January when we think if we go back to logic, when we think about some logic, we knew that we knew our journey, we knew we had a World Cup, we've also known what our journey has been like, up until that point is, you know, for most teams, it's been very challenging. We've done a number of tours over to New Zealand actually, and been in 14 days, you know, individual quarantine and come out training in a car park and play a three match test series like the toll that the few years leading up to this point has taken on a human level, as well as a netball level has been has been enduring, really, and we wouldn't change it. And I think it's served us really well. And we knew that we had to keep playing internationally and play the best teams if we stood any chance of competing with them in this last cycle. But so in January, I knew knowing also that we had a test series very quickly after the World Cup and back over in New Zealand, that there was some logical and practical challenges and constraints that we had, we had to make some decisions around our approach in the short term post World Cup, both on behalf of the players on the staff actually, but for the with the longer term in mind. So what's the right decision to make now that we think will protect preserve, but most importantly, enable us to perform even better when we next come around to a Commonwealth Games in World Cup. So I didn't find that difficult because I've lived it with the team, I've I've seen the toll that it can and has taken and for me that that short turnaround between World Cup and getting on it. And people forget the preparation of a team to make sure that we go to New Zealand in the best possible state we can. And that World Cup group in the main and we were always going to have some assignments as well, that woke up with needed rest, like they needed mental rest. And they needed to a lesser extent for some of them physical rest, in order that not only to recover from the previous campaign, but also to prepare and reinvigorate for what we have to come and it has everything's coming thick and fast. You know, there's been no real time to kind of sit with the reflections of the summer really. So the those players would have had to have, they would have had to have returned immediately from South Africa and gone straight into camp in order that we were ready physically and tactically and technically to go overseas and give a good account of ourselves. And so there was there was some practical things strains that felt right to me that that felt like the right thing to do to protect those people and those players and some staff, for the reasons that I've already said, so the actual group that were remaining that had been selected on our program back in April, you know, that weren't in the World Cup, they were in camps, before we even landed back in the UK, they were already in their camps, they needed to physically prepare, then they needed to tactically prepare. And then they needed to get on a long haul flight, you know, and be ready to hit the ground running in test one. So that that's the, that's the reality of the overlap. And that decision for me was easy. I'm not saying other people like it, I'm not saying it's not difficult to navigate and provide that rationale for our organization and to bring bring people on that journey so that they understand. But I had full support with that, because we do care about our people. But we will, and we also have ambition to be better. And so for me, that that was kind of, you know, I guess the initial bit that we had to deal with now, when it comes to, I'm no different. I've not yet returned from South Africa, the group are already in camp, we, you know, we've got other staff that are helping to support them. And I guess from my perspective, I needed to make sure that I had some decompression, and it wasn't, you know, even then it's not long. But I needed to make sure that I was in the right frame of mind to be the best servant to that team's needs and prepare them well. But in January, I had already anticipated that the right thing to do is to wrap staff around that group who can remain 100% focused on what they need. And my role is most probably to support that staff team. And to be able to take a slight step back so that I could learn about that playing group. So that now when we're heading into a South Africa series and a nation's cup in January, I have a really sound and rounded view to a lot of players that were very new to our program who were very young, pretty green in terms of this international landscape. And so to take a bit of a step back actually allowed me to observe the player group in an international environment and under those conditions in a very different way. So when I am right close in up against it, and that wasn't me actually shirking responsibility, it was me trusting that Leon is more than capable, more than capable and very aligned, and has worked closely enough with me and the team for long enough that I can trust that the messages are common. The technical and tactical work is very aligned to the roses way that we've worked hard at the last couple of years. And she's more than capable as a coach, to serve that team for that period of time on the ground in the day to day running is in preparation, the best thing I can do for that team in that group of players is to get to know them, to understand them, and to set them up for future success. And actually to trust in liana. And to trust that player group. I did go into some of the camps in the UK before they left for New Zealand. And I obviously joined them in New Zealand. And that was always, always the plan to be there. But not necessarily to feel the obligation. To that I'm the only person who could maybe prepare that team day on day in training sessions, I think I my best, the best way to serve that team is doing what we did. And so it wasn't hard. It wasn't hard to trust Liana, that wasn't hard. I trust the owner. You know, I trust I trust Sonya, and I think we've not. So we're only kind of two and a half years into being a coaching team. But I've felt more than comfortable to do that. My duty was to be there, though. My duty was to be there to be able to kind of oversee things for even from a staffing point of view, you know, like, what, what's the environment? Like, you know, like, Am I seeing and hearing things that, you know, we're bringing from the previous cohort, where where might the work needs to be done? And where might we need to invest in the months and since we've been back in camp, you know, so it's been brilliant insight for me. And I've just, as I say, I my ego isn't that big that I feel I have to have hands on and complete control in that way. I think it's okay, actually, to find space within a four year intense cycle, in particular at the start of one as well. It's okay, and I'm most probably much needed to kind of just see your program and see your playgroup as I say in those match conditions in a significant test series, which we took very seriously. I mean, if we hadn't, then we wouldn't have got those players back into camp in the way that we did. You know, like we understood the significance of it. And we respected that competition hugely. And sometimes the placement of these competitions going in and out of COVID hasn't always been at our choosing. It's quite complex, the International calendar and it's been I haven't really had a four year calendar since I came in. So and I'm sure a lot of other coaches have felt the same So that's quite unusual. So some of the placement of these things maybe isn't perfect, from a timing point of view. And then we have to think about what are both the intended and unintended consequences of that. And then obviously journey with the group and make types of decisions like we've just described, but compete, it was so, so valuable to think differently about that period of time for us. And I'm, you know, I'm now been back in camp for five, six weeks, you know, with an incredibly, you know, exciting group of players, some new, some returning from the World Cup, and we're headed now towards our first home series since the summer. And I feel as informed as I could around being close enough to the action, but not feeling like I have to have complete control in the way that I think sometimes we feel we have to be seen to have as a head coach. And maybe that just speaks to my view, as you say, on my role. And don't get me wrong, I don't know, if it's something that would happen frequently, because I am responsible, you know, it's ultimately the way the team perform is on me, and the environment that I helped to set up and lead. I don't, I'm not shaking from that at all, you know, like, so. That isn't what that was, actually, it was a very deliberate action, as I say, some constraints led, and others where we thought, quite intentionally around, what's the best way to run this and support this team. Now, but even more importantly, what will set us up for greater success moving forward, and I'm really proud, I'm really proud of the team. And it's not always just about results is it it's about the way in which we carry ourselves the decisions we make, why we make them thinking about our people and our performance. And, you know, it maybe wasn't ideal or optimum, but it was it's, it was the situation we were served. And so we we did what we felt was right. And I am incredibly proud. And I think to even get a win against the Silver Ferns with a with a less experienced side is an encouraging sign for us, you know, match one of the next four year cycle, that's not something we've ever done against the world's best. So I'm hopeful and actually quite confident that the return of decisions like that in three or four years time, I'm hoping will come back at us 10 times over. That that's the intention, right, we've I've now got a broader base of players, you know what it feels like to be one of the best teams in the world, you know, that that is so invaluable. Having spent years with previous underage teams and under 20 ones trying to get them to believe in themselves, but they haven't yet seen or got the evidence of that. So they just think I'm a crazy woman who, you know, is telling them that they're brilliant, and that they will be better in the can win. And I think that's the joy that I'm having on this journey with the group is that for themselves, they're starting to provide the evidence that's needed to give them a bit more of a psychological edge against the best teams in the world who are just so well rehearsed at winning, sustaining, winning and repeating winning. And that's just not something we've we're yet to kind of enjoy. But it's certainly what we're trying to achieve in the next four to eight years. But yes,
Paul Barnett 58:19
I know you've got a run off to training, I think it might be getting close to 9am there in the UK. So I am going to ask just one more question if I can. And you talked a little bit about legacy back at the start when you talked about the color green. So I guess I want to ask, when you think about the word legacy, and you peer into the future, whether it is four or eight years, what comes into your mind?
Jess Thirlby 58:43
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's around. I'd like to think wherever I'm in four to eight years that the roses program and this team have enjoyed the most amount of success ever, and I think, to have elevated and helped to transform how this team I've seen globally and and what they achieve, because I do I genuinely do believe that we're we're at a bit of a tipping point of having an opportunity to really try and not just elves in and amongst, you know, the Australia and New Zealand's the, the margins are tiny, below us as well. So the risk of both winning and losing in that top group is as we felt the last few years, you know, a fourth place in a second in two major tournaments. And I think there's more of that to come. But for me, I just hope that I've helped instill some transformational change both as a system so that the success can be sustained. And actually that we can expect an England team to be in finals as opposed to for it to be a nice to have a bit of a surprise. You know, I think that's where I'd like the mindset to shift really. So whether I'm in the role or not in the role. I whatever job I've ever done. I always like to leave it thinking it's going to live on and I hope the system would be strong enough and that you've got a pipeline of talent that is able then to sustain and transform how this team has seen around the world.[PB9]
Paul Barnett 1:00:09
Think transformational change is a pretty good place for us to finish. So Jess, thank you so much for your time here today. It's been it's been awesome listening to you. I wish you all the best over the next four years so I can I look forward to seeing those results against Norma.
Jess Thirlby 1:00:26
Thank you for having me and for being so patient and tolerant, listening to my listening to my story. Thanks, Jess. Thank you