Jill McInstosh edit
Wed, Dec 20, 2023 9:32AM • 38:19
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, team, players, netball, sport, group, captain, joyce, good, respect, learning, diamonds, cultures, mentor, put, level, court, open, gelling, day
SPEAKERS
Eric Knight, Jill McIntosh, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
And of course, I'm joined for our interview today by Professor Eric Knight. Eric, how are you?
Eric Knight 00:06
Fantastic, Paul, all the better for being with you.
Paul Barnett 00:09
Well, thank you for coming along. To do this together, we're gonna do a bit of a double team over the next. Well, let's call a couple of months as we interview some very interesting leaders in sport and business and life, about the idea of thriving teams.
Eric Knight 00:25
Yeah, and look, I think it's a fantastic concept. It's rich, it's complex. And I think, you know, through some of these conversations, we're gonna be able to tease it out with examples and see how it maps against people's real life experience.
Paul Barnett 00:38
And of course, welcome to today's guest, Joe Macintosh. Welcome to the great coach's podcast.
Jill McIntosh 00:45
Good afternoon. It's lovely to be with you. Till
Paul Barnett 00:49
something simple to get his going. Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Jill McIntosh 00:56
But I'm back home in Canberra in my house in Canberra. I've just got back from Cardiff. So the weather is the two extremes, I guess, in Cardiff, Wales. I'm looking after the Cardiff dragons in netball, UK Super League over there. So they're very much into preseason at the moment. So I've come back for Christmas and New Year. And before I head off, again, mid January for the whole season, which will encompass up until probably the end of June. So they're back to the cold in January.
Paul Barnett 01:30
Well, look, we appreciate you carving out a little bit of time to talk to Eric and I about all things to do with leadership and teams. But Jul might just start actually by asking you about some of while they are the giants of the guy that you've worked with, there's Wilma, Shakespeare, gay T, there's Joyce Brown, I know that, you know, normal plumber, jazz, still the list goes on and on and on. But I wanted to ask you from this perspective of seeing these people up close, what is it you think the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Jill McIntosh 02:07
When you look at these great coaches, and that's not only in netball, but in most sports, I think they have a dream. Or they have a plan. They know where they're going. They know where they want to be, they know what their team needs to do. And they're very good at getting to the end of that plan. And I think you know, you some some coaches, you're here along the way, and they just don't know where they're at. They don't know what they're doing. But the better ones, excuse me, they certainly do. And, you know, there it might be a 1234 year cycle as it is in netball. But you know, they're very good at dissecting that cycle. And by the end of it, hopefully reaching their goal and what they've had in mind. But they've got a good growth mindset. They've got a forward plan. They're a bit of dreamers, all of those sorts of things, but they can put it all together. And that's what it is about them, I think sets them apart.[PB1]
Eric Knight 03:15
So Joe, maybe just building on that, because I know your father was a AFL player, Hall of Fame AFL player. And so sport was a big part of your childhood. Can you just say something about what you took away from, you know, your childhood and your time with your dad in terms of your approach to teams today?
Jill McIntosh 03:34
I guess one big thing I learned back then. And when I think about it, now it was a very good learning was was exactly that that a team and he was in AFL CIO, a team is exactly that a team.
And a team is made up of individuals. And each individual is going to bring into that team something unique. But if you can't mold that team into something that works together in harmony, then it doesn't matter. So I guess my learnings from way back then were how important the team aspect and getting all of those different elements of the team. And in netball, we have teams of 12 getting it all working in sync at the one time. And then the team of seven that goes on a court getting that working in sync at the one time. And it might sound very easy, but it's a particularly hard thing to do. And it doesn't come along all that often. And when you see you know the better teams in whatever sport it is. And when when it is in sync, it's lovely. And you get those magical games but when it's not quite in sync, something's not quite right. [PB2] [PB3]
Then you know, it's not not as good and looking at the World Cup this year in Cape Town and England. I was I was quite intrigued by England because they beat Australia in the rounds and did so very well. And their game was all in sync It was very nice when it got to the final something wasn't quite right. And there was something missing. And their game wasn't where it should have been. And consequently, Australia's was an Australia when uncomfortably so yeah, the learnings would have been way back then even you know, watching AFL, as I did as a kid, was how important to link and to build and to gel all the different aspects of a team so that they work as one
Paul Barnett 05:29
to pick up on this idea of gelling, sinking. Sometimes people call it connection, because you've coached the national teams of Australia, Northern Ireland, Jamaica, Singapore, and Wales. Now, that's a pretty good data set to refer back to. So when it comes to getting in sync, gelling together, what did the best teams do differently?
Jill McIntosh 05:57
I think we, you know, we look at the physical and we look at the psychological side of our game, and the teams you've mentioned, and all the teams when you look at them at the top, physically, there's not much that separates them. They work with, you know, some excellent sports science personnel in this day and age, and so they're well conditioned, everything about them is good. So it comes down to that little, you know, percentage of the psychological aspect. And some of the teams you've mentioned, it is exactly that, that where they fall down. And building respect, I think is a big thing. And as mentioned before, about gelling all the different aspects, and if players don't have respect for each other, and respect for the personnel around them, then it falls apart. [PB4] [PB5]
And I won't mention the teams. But certainly, I coached a very good team that could have gone on to really, really good things. But it was that little bit of psychological aspect that let them down, and the lack of respect for each other, and very much infighting within the group. And it's just that very thing that lets them down. And when when push comes to shove, and when the crunch comes, it needs to be all there. And I think at the moment, when you look at the diamonds, they have it. So when they're absolutely under pressure, psychologically, they're strong, and they get stronger. And they band together, the seven on court and those on the bench. And they're a very strong unit. They're all physically very capable. It's but it's that psychological age where I think sets the diamonds in Australia apart from the rest. Is it
Paul Barnett 07:43
possible to teach that? And you coach that? Or is it just innate in a group? Is it the magic of the chemistry,
Jill McIntosh 07:52
it's a bit of both, I think each player's born with a certain quality and innate quality, to be strong psychologically, you can certainly enhance it, I believe in players, you can use all the tricks of the trade and our sports psychologists and, and all of those sorts of people to try and enhance it. But in the heat of the battle, when they're out there, and in a World Cup, and they're trying to win and beat the world. It comes back to the individual. And that's where I think it's what they're born with, that they'll fall back on that. Some habits, some don't. And it's, it's not an easy thing to improve. But I think you can improve it. But I think it's certain certain levels of strong psychological character are built into the person at birth.
Eric Knight 08:48
I mean, chill, it's, it's fascinating to hear you talk about that. And, and I just wondered if you could speak a little bit to how you detect that how you measure it. I mean, I think when you finish to the Australian coach, you got a winning rate of 94%, which is pretty phenomenal. And but I'm sure you know, as you say, it's not just about winning, it's about other elements. How are you judging a team? How are you judging its progress? How are you measuring that? What are the signs and the signals that you're detecting that you can measure improvement or change over time?
Jill McIntosh 09:17
Well, it's when I had the group, it was the way they played their adherence to everything that was asked of them, the quality of their skills, did it break down, and all the processes that we had in place around those skills. And if those were all in place, then often we were very successful respecting the rules of our game, and not making errors. And I think that plays a big part in the outcome. And again, I'll go back to the final of the World Cup, and you look at the diamonds and they're the unforced error rate was very low. And I think that At when you look at teams, and before you get to the final outcome, if that unforced error rate is very low, then you're not coughing up the ball and giving it to the opposition to score, and you're scoring.
So it's a respect again for each other, it's being able to, under extreme pressure, still go about your business, and doing the simple things well over and over every time and executing them without error. And that's just the simple things of catching and passing, and making the best decisions, throwing the right passes, and all of those sorts of things, and of course, scoring the goals. So there's many aspects to it. But we used to have a rule of excellence. And that was excellence in everything we did, because it starts on the training track. And if it's not been put out there on the training track, you can't expect it to magically happen on the day of the event. So training was about excellence in everything we did. And that was on court and off court, and adherence to all the little things that we had to do on court and off court. And that that little rule of excellence went a long way. And I guess with the group I had over the years, we expected to do well, we expected to have success, there was not a hope. There, it was an expectation. Because if we've covered all our bases, and we've done all the work, and we're left no stone unturned, we're in a pretty good position to come out with success. So a lot of it starts on the training track, and around excellence and each player pushing each other and expecting that and if someone's not pulling their weight, well, their teammates, pull up on it, and make them pull their weight. And I think over the years that I had the diamonds, we pretty much did that quite well, players would keep each other in check. And together. No, as I said there was an expectation of success. And more often than not, we got[PB6]
Paul Barnett 12:12
to one of the things you've got a lot of experience as well, is around starting with new teams. So you've started so many of those national teams, we talked about this club teams scattered through there as well. And I wanted to ask you, when you start with a new team, and you're gathering them around, and you're trying to get them to gel, is there anything that you do that helps them define their purpose or their why?
Jill McIntosh 12:41
Well, I can use the analogy of my current team, I'm looking after the Cardiff dragons. So they are a new team to me. They've been in the competition. For a while their success rate has not been very good. They finished bottom of the ladder this year. So it was like starting afresh. They've recruited very well. So they have a reasonable team going into next year's competition. So it was sitting down with them at the very beginning and establishing exactly what it is we want and listing what it is we want and then how are we going to achieve it? Yeah, the ultimate is you want to win at that level is about winning. But it's the how, how are you going to do it? And then it's what are you going to do to get it? And we sat there and we've come up with a list and that they must adhere to. And I think that's a very important aspect of it.
And I guess every team that I've been associated with, it's it's starting from that, that very beginnings of establishing exactly what it is we want. But it's it's more about how we're going to do it. And I think that little word How is a very strong and powerful word. And I think a lot of coaches, they know what they want, but they don't know how they're going to do it and how they're going to get it. And it's also a collaboration between players and coaching staff, and then all the other personnel around the group. Because there's certainly an encore team, but there's also an off court team. And if they're not working in sync, it certainly doesn't work. [PB7] [PB8]
So yeah, the dragons, we've sat down and we've come up with our little list. There isn't how, excuse me, and they're so far so good, but it's only an early days. So we'll see. We'll see as the competition goes along. The how if the how is working, we haven't put too much pressure on ourselves. Our goal is to win more matches than we don't. And in that way if we can win more matches, then we don't then you know we won't be on the bottom for 2024
Paul Barnett 15:00
The lovely star, would it be possible to hear a couple of the things that are on that list? Or is it to top secret?
Jill McIntosh 15:07
Well, it's about you know, it's not it's nothing, it's nothing mind blowing. So, you know, one of it is, let's take training. And we set a rule. So let's say we start training at 6pm. Well, people have to be there at 545. And that's just what it is. And being on time, every time being strapped. It sounds so silly and inane. But it's, it's not, it's so important that when six o'clock comes, everyone is ready to go. They're not still putting shoes on, they're not Strapping, but they're ready to go. And the my bugbear as a coach is that for players that are late, and then they come up with every excuse under the sun, or they don't even turn up to training. And you know, there's always a different reason why. And you start to think, well, you know, they're not, they're not really invested in this group. So just those two little examples go a long way to forming a very cohesive group. And if they want to achieve, they will adhere to all of those little things, apart from the skills around the group, and all those little things that go to making the group successful.
Eric Knight 16:32
So Joe, you've worked as a coach developer as well, for the International netball Federation, can you say what that experience and the others that you've had have taught you about the importance of values within a team?
Jill McIntosh 16:46
Oh, yes, I think value is one of the biggest one is respect. And you hear coaches talk about respect and demanding respect. But I've always said to coaches, you can't demand respect, you have to earn it. And you earn it by the things you do, and how you go about doing those things. And when you watch the better coaches around the world, and the way they operate, and that's in all sports, you know, they they, they earn the respect of not only their players, but the support staff, the fans at the top level. And that, for me is a biggie about values. And coming up with a series of values that encompasses what the group means and what fits for that group and defining it is so very important.
And I think when you look at the the most successful teams in the world, and the diamonds at the moment for netballer, exactly that their values, I don't know what they are, specifically, but I can see her respect, I can see her respect from the players to each other. I can see or respect the players to coaches. And I like watching different coaches in action. And on match days, are the players engaged? Just that simple thing? Are they listening to what their coach is telling them? Are they looking at their coach? Or are they looking around the stadium, and just that little simple thing tells you a lot. And if they're not well, they're not. They're not respectful. They're not engaged. And when you look at a bench, and you look at the coach who's addressing them, all eyes should be on that coach, all ears should be on what the coach is saying. And also the two way communication that they have, and you don't necessarily have to hear what they're saying. Body language goes a long way to telling you that yeah, it's all working well, or it's not working well. And when you see some teams and some coaches, that some of those values and respect are not there, the players are all over the place. They're not even engaged, they're looking, you know, behind them, they're looking anywhere else, but the coach, and then you know that that is not going to be a successful team. So yeah, respect is a big word. And as I said, coaches need to earn it, they can't demand that they earn it by their actions.[PB9]
Eric Knight 19:21
So I think you were 15 when you started coaching job, but you're also a captain. And so different roles. What do you look for in the captain? What are the qualities that you need a captain to have? You know, different? captains
Jill McIntosh 19:35
are so very important here. I started, thought I was a coach in my little team that I was playing in because we had no one else. And I happened that particular year to make a state team in Western Australia. So I thought I knew of it. And I look back now and I think Well, I knew nothing. And if only I knew then what I know now would have been so much better.
But you Captain's are so so very important to a coach. And if you have a good captain, it makes life so much easier. Again, the word respect for each other, I think captains have to have honesty and integrity, because of the conversations that coaches have with captains that are very personal about players. And you can have a captain running off to the particular player they've been talking about, and spilling the beans, so to speak. And if a team has a grumble or whatever, that the captain reports back to the coach, what the team wants, not what the captain wants, but what the team wants. And the captain represents the team. And they can generate a positive environment. And I think good captains, here, they lead by example, on court, they need not necessarily need to be your best player. But they need to encapsulate all of that we spoke about about excellence on the court and doing the things well that are asked of them. And then also creating a very positive environment off the court. And the things that captains need to do around media and all of those promotional things that you know, they just do them. And there's no no whinging and whining about the time spent, they just do them because that's part of the role. And I guess I've been very lucky over the years to have some excellent captains who, yeah, had the honesty, they had the integrity, and they represented the team, and good players, good on the training track even better, you know, on Match Day. So, captains Yeah, you just need to find the right ones, and then they make your life so much easier as a coach.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 21:56
I've got this interesting quote from your journal, I might read it to you if it's okay, that ask you the question. You say, you must renew those around you, as they are the ones who bring new ideas and new ways of doing the same thing to the table. They keep your mind open. And it just I was intrigued a little bit by it. And I thought I might ask you who have been the key mentors for you through your career who have helped you achieve this.
Jill McIntosh 22:25
I guess, probably a name that everyone knows in netball is Joyce Brown. And throughout my national representation as a player, she was you know, a highlight, I guess, when I look back now at what I learned off her, from her coaching to how I've, I've framed my own coaching, a lot of it was, you know, the values and everything that she had in place when I was under her as a player. She was a very forthright, a very forward thinking person, she had some creative ideas. And you know, she set the the excellence and the values that we wanted.
So for me as a player, I guess, yeah, I've now put a lot of those into my coaching. And I had an I had a mentor, not well, a sort of a pseudo mentor, a basketball coach, and gentleman that was fairly high up in the in the ranks of basketball, and just knew him as a person. But yeah, I knew him also as a basketball coach. And he was good to have outside of netball. And a lot of people think that you have to have mentors within your sport while you don't. Because, hey, every problem I had, and I'd go and sit down and have a chat, it already had solved it and come out the other end. So you know, he was good because it was in a different sport. But yes, same issues cropped up. So I think between those two, now I learned a great deal about coaching. Also, I like watching sport or watch anything. So they're not really mentors, but just watching coaches in action. And as I said, you don't necessarily have to hear so much what they say it's how they do it. And you're watching because I'm very big on body language and how players you know, look at coaches and how they engage with coaches and how they act on what coaches say, and some of the sports and your watch coaches and watching as I am in Wales in the UK at the moment. You see a lot of football or soccer as we call it, and some of their coaches and they have the ability to walk up and down a sideline. So they get very carried away very angry at times and very carried away. It's quite interesting. [PB11]
The different sports and how the different coaches act and within the realms of their sport basketball is another one that seems to be that coaches need to stand up and walk up and down and, and look fierce and look angry. And that's just the way it is in that particular sport. And then you come to AFL. And I always think about AFL and the first break that they come to court a time, they're still out there on the field. And you've got 18 players surrounded the coach. And I look at not at the frontline of the players, I look at the backline of the players and what are they you know, they're at the back. Are they listening to the coach? Are they watching him? Are they looking at the whiteboard that is writing stuff on, it's quite fascinating. And I know AFL now, and they're very diverse, and they're very good in the way they they come up with different things and how now I went to one of one of the particular clubs training and the coach really didn't do anything except stand in the middle of the oval, just watching everything around him and had all of the his various assistants doing their bit with the players in the respective areas. And this coach was just looking at it all and taking it all in and just seeing what the the players were doing. And that that was quite fascinating. Just stood in the middle of the oval. And I thought oh, that would be nice, wouldn't it? But yeah, so for me, I do watch a lot of sport and how coaches react and what they do. And as I said, not necessarily what they say. But sometimes when you hear what they say, and you think well, what did they say? They say a whole lot and nothing. So yeah, it's just over the years, just gaining that those experiences as you go. But for me, yeah, Joyce in netball, and my basketball, mentor, very, very valuable.
Eric Knight 26:50
Guy, Paul, you've got to find a way to get body language into the podcast, because that's missing. Well, I've
Paul Barnett 26:57
seen in a more straight here at the minute making sure that I'm making eye contact to get in any trouble.
Eric Knight 27:05
So Joyce Brown did say a couple of things to you and you've quoted her on it. Surround yourself with successful people. Don't forget to take time out for yourself every day. Can you just reflect on that and how you've tried to get that life balance for yourself? Right as you've matured as a leader? Jill?
Jill McIntosh 27:20
Yes, I can remember when I first was awarded the National job in 95. And I had a little office all by myself. And because I was in Canberra, and our main office, netball, Australian main office at that time was in Sydney. And I felt that every second of that day while I was in my office, I had to be there in the office. And I couldn't go out because the phone might ring. And you know, so I couldn't go out for lunch or I couldn't go out for a walk or Yeah. And I just thought I had to be sitting there in case the phone might ring. Because if somebody rang me and I wasn't there, they would think I wasn't doing my job. And then over time, I learned that no, in a day, I need to take time out for myself. And I can always remember Joyce saying exactly that. No coaching at the top is a lonely job. And you can't give everything you can't give 24/7 attention to it because you'll burn out or break down. So in every 24 hours you need time away. And my time away used to be I'd go for a lunchtime walk if the weather permitted. And so in the early, early sort of times of my coaching, I just set by that phone never rang. Of course, I could have gone for my walk. But yeah, it was just that adherence and learning that yeah, you know, you don't have to be sitting at a desk to be doing your job, particularly in coaching. [PB12]
And then their other bit of advice was is surround yourself by successful people meaning that Be very mindful about who you put in around you. And about your assistant coaches, your managers, your sports science personnel, be very mindful of, of what they bring. Yes, they need to be like minded as I was, but they also need the ability to keep my mind open to different ways. And to challenge me, not not in a dreadful way but challenged me to make sure that I was Yeah, had an open mind and could come up with different things as we went along. And I thought over the years I did have some very, very good people around me. And they also need to have that growth mindset that they learn. They're open to new ideas. It's not a closed book. We're always learning You're always learning as a coach, and bringing new ideas to the group and thinking at this high performance level, and what it takes and what they can bring to the group. So, yes, that those two little quotes from Joyce, when I first started, really have resonated with me and stayed with Me all through My coaching.[PB13]
Paul Barnett 30:20
It's good advice for anybody who's in a leadership role to go for a walk at lunchtime. I think it's very important, why a few deep breaths, and some fresh air can always build perspective. But I've got another quote, we've got a few little quotes here towards the end of the interview, but this one, this one was a recent one, you said, the fun part of a coach is being able to add your creative flair to the program. Now I hear many coaches talk about the importance of fun when it comes to learning. But I'm going to ask you more broadly, how you would describe a good team culture because I'm interested to hear whether or not fun makes it onto the list.
Jill McIntosh 31:03
And you know, it's often self LED. And, you know, it's not waiting for somebody to tell you to do something, it's not it's a simple thing, like not, not waiting for somebody to tell you to pick up your strapping tape, you know, pick it up, put it in the bin. So things like that. So cultures are behaviors, I think, and yeah, so sitting down and coming up with them, but they've got to represent your group, and the personnel and the different characters and the different personalities that you have a new group. I think that's very important. So you go through those at the beginning of your campaign, and they stay with you right, throughout your campaign.[PB14]
Eric Knight 33:46
Can you say a little bit more about that learning point there, because I know you've spoken about teams needing the respect and the adherence and the discipline. You've also said that coaches need to stay up to date, make sure they keep developing, but how do teams keep learning at a fast enough rate, just to be able to keep a pace and react and improve? What what do you think's there?
Jill McIntosh 34:06
Well, they learn off you the coach, I think, you know, and if they don't, well, then you don't really want them you don't want to play that is a closed book. And I've used the word growth mindset a lot. And you know, players need to keep an open mind. And I also spoke about doing the simple things well, but sometimes, you know, there's a better way, there's a better way of doing the same thing. And so as a coach, we go off to whatever we go off to seminars, we listen to podcasts, you know, we chat with other coaches, we read, whatever whatever we can find our information from and we learn and the game is developing. Our sports science personnel are just getting better and better. Our players are fitter and they're more attuned to physically being able to get out there and perform at their best then When I was playing, we were left to our own devices. So, yeah, so the coach goes out there and learns he never stopped learning, and then impacts that onto the players, but the players need to embrace it. And they can't be close shop. They can't think no, no, I've always done it this way. It's always worked for me this way. I'm always going to do it this way. So it says growth mindset that they must have an open mind to take on board, any new things, give them a go, they might not work. If they don't work, don't use them. If they do, well, then you've learned something new. So this is an ongoing process. It never stops. I think as coaches, we're always looking at trying to find new ways of doing the same thing, but doing it better.[PB15]
Paul Barnett 35:46
To maybe just one final question, if I could, you've mentioned purpose a few times in this interview, you're away, I'd say your age. That's impolite. But it's still coaching, you've been coaching. If we go back to 15, it's probably over 50 years that you've been coaching. Yes. And I know that you're not showing any sign of slowing down soon. But what's the purpose that coaching helps meet for you in life?
Jill McIntosh 36:17
Well, I guess this current gig that I've got, which came out of the blue, I must say, because most of my coaching up until taking on the cloud of dragons was coaching education around, you know, taking courses about being a mentor to coaches and that sort of thing. And then just by pure chance, and friends that are in netball, this coaching gig came up. Yes, it's in Wales, it's a long way from home. And I had to sit down and think, Well, you know, do I need this at my age 20 to be taking on all this stress, and so on and so forth. And then I thought, well, it's a challenge. And I look at it as a challenge for me that I haven't really been in charge of a team at this level for a while. And it was sort of a bit of a reassurance that I can still do it, that I have, you know, all of the experience now that I've gathered over the many years, and I can put it into practice, and I, you know, not washed up. And yeah, I still have something to offer. So, so far, it's been very enjoyable, very pleasurable. But as I said previously, we're into preseason. That's the easy part. And the difficulty will come when we start playing and what happens around those matches. But yeah, I guess, you know, it was just a reassurance that, yes, I can still coach, I have a lot of experience to impart, and I can still operate at that level in a successful manner.
Paul Barnett 37:52
Well, Gil, thank you so much for your time today. And I wish you all the best for the season ahead. You're over there in one of the most proud sporting nations in the world. So I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people looking on with interest to see how the Dragons go, but I appreciate your time and thank you for being so forthright and open with us today.
Jill McIntosh 38:13
Okay, thank you very much. It's been my pleasure.
Paul Barnett 38:16
Thank you. Thanks.