Justin Langer Edit

Thu, 8/26 6:54AM • 41:10

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

coach, people, australian cricket team, players, played, australia, world, cricket, stormy waters, ashes, head coach, leader, life, conversations, ship, learned, tough, years, bit, team

SPEAKERS

Paul Barnett, Justin Langer

Paul Barnett 00:00

So Justin Langer Good afternoon and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.

Justin Langer 00:03

Hey, Paul, thanks for the invitation. It's when you talked about interviewing people like Ric Charlesworth, and some of the other great coaches that you have. It was really nice to be invited to talk to you.

Paul Barnett 00:14

Well, the pleasure is all ours, especially as right now. Well, actually, I want to tell everybody, where you are. I'll ask you, Justin, where are you in the world? And what have you been up to in the last 24 hours,

Justin Langer 00:24

I'm actually in St. Lucia, in the West Indies, and we're playing a T 20 competition against the West Indies we go in, we got one more game in this series, and we got to Barbados. And then we fly from Barbados to Bangladesh. So I say this with great respect and compassion. But I've actually really enjoyed the COVID period. The only thing I haven't enjoyed today is COVID. Because for the year before, COVID hit us. I spent 300 days on the ride away from my family. And I had this probably 12 month period where I was home the whole time. And my gosh, it was so much fun, like living what I'd say in inverted commas, a normal life. It was brilliant, but now I'm back on the ride. And when we get home, we've got two weeks quarantine in Australia, then we've got a World Cup coming up. And then we've got the ashes next summer, and then we go straight to Pakistan. And then it's all keeps going. So yeah, there's, I'm in St. Lucia now. And I'll try and stay in St. Lucia. Because if I look too far ahead, it gets pretty tiring and bit scary really

Paul Barnett 01:28

well, I hope not to scare you for the next hour as we go through sort of leadership and how it applies to to coaching the Australian cricket team. But Justin, maybe if I could start just winding the clock back a bit because when you look at your history, you've had exposure, direct indirect, you've met some of the world's great coaches. And I'm just going to talk some Australian wants to start with Bob Simpson, john Buchanan. And he hurried Englishman, Mick Malthouse Adam Simpson, multiple sports, different perspectives. And of course, I know you met Kevin Sheedy, they wants to answer Alex Ferguson. From this perspective, what is it you think that great coaches do differently that sets them apart?

Justin Langer 02:09

One thing I say, I would not be here talking to you today without incredible mentors in my life. And if I could give people one bit of advice at any age, have a curious mind. and search for mentors and a lot of people, the mistake they make is I think they already know it all. And they don't ask questions. And I've said this for many, many years, I hope in the last day of my coaching career, I still consider myself as a novice coach. In other words, or hype, I'm still learning [PB1] and I do have incredible mentors around me. We mentioned Ric Charlesworth before, we've had a few things going on Australian cricket, and I was able to get on the phone to him and go have a coffee with him in subiaco in Perth, and we sat down and we talked for two hours. And it was just to be able to talk to people. The reason I love talking to head coaches, is because they actually understand what you're going through. A lot of people think they understand I'm an assistant coach said to me, a few years ago, he goes, I'll listen mate. I know what you're going through, but, and I said, Man, you got no idea what I'm going through. And it's really funny because before being a head coach, I was an assistant coach and I say this quite often when you're an assistant coach, it's the best job in the world. Everyone's best mate. You work about three hours a day and you got zero accountability. When you become a head coach, you work about 20 hours a day. No one likes you and you're 100% accountability. So who's the mogh head coach and leadership's incredibly satisfying and to finish on this that question one of the greatest bits of advice I was given when I first became a head coach was actually from Kevin CD the great essence and coach the iconic head coach of essence and AFL footy club. And was it the whacker? The West Australian Cricket Ground and he was this with the Balkan as my thing was my first day as the coach of West Australia. And he said to me, son, what I want you to do tonight is go home, get your journal out and write down all the best coaches you've had in your life. And since jr Krieger Jr. folio, right through to Bobby Simpson, john via cast and ik and he said, Mr. All you do is I want you to write down all their strengths. I said, Okay. He said, because what will happen then will be the recipe for the sort of coach you become. You take all the strengths of the great coaches you've ever been involved with the great mentors, and that's the sort of you'll become a great coach. So that was brilliant advice. [PB2] Again, I'd share that with anyone listening this if you think about the great coaches, the great leaders, the great Ms. They've actually rubbed shoulders with write down their strengths and mold that into the sort of coach or lady you want to become.

Paul Barnett 04:53

Boy, I'd love to see that list one day Justin.

Justin Langer 04:56

Although it's so funny, because I've still got the little red moleskin journal that I write it in and it started off. I said, Oh, that'd be easy. And now it's just devoured. I could write a book at the end of my career. I could write a book from just that first question that Kevin CD asked me because I've had similar is amazing. I the list is extraordinary goes back to my as silly as this sounds, my under 10. Cricket coach Alan Abraham, right. He was so passionate and so he'd loved it so much. And he was said all this out the element of a crush on my mum, which always buried us a bit. But he had this energy in this smile, and I'm still in touch with him today I talked about my year 11 economics teacher, right. I married my economics teacher when I was 16 years old. He gave me some advice which changed my life. So I think about all these great mentors and the lesson, it's almost like you can I could write a book one day, a wise man once told me, because they might be forecasting for 10 years time you see it coming up listeners then buy it. We're it's a brilliant book, there's a great list. I'm really, really fortunate to have these great people in my life.

Paul Barnett 06:08

What was the advice he gave you that changed your life? I can't not follow up with that question.

Justin Langer 06:13

I went to another school for year 11 and 12, at Aquinas College, which is a great school in Western Australia. And I'd been there about six or eight ways as a young boy, like I was trying to be one of the cool kids and try and access trying to fit in and trying to get part of it. And I remember it was the last period of the diet. He was also the cricket coach Rado is the Career Coach of the first 11 he said I just in case you stay behind plays ascidian hours when the belwin so I stayed behind. And he looked me in the eyes, he goes, You are wasting an extraordinary opportunity here. You're trying to be cool. You're trying to you're hanging out with the wrong kids. You don't need to be hanging out with the wrong kids and trying to be cool, may get focus get your head in the game basically. And for me, it was almost like flicking a switch like often has happened with all these great mentors in my life. It's almost like well flick a switch. And then from that moment, everything went change. I really focused on my, my education, I really focused on playing footy in cricket at Aquinas. As it turned out, I went to England for the very first time in year 12, the year after with a schoolboys team. And that was another incredible stepping stone in my life. Because it was at that point where I thought, Man, if I could be a professional cricketer one day, because I was actually doing played, we were there for a month or five weeks, and we played 28 games of cricket. And it was like man, this is Imagine being able to do that for a living. So because I'll be watching County Cricket is I don't even know you can do that. So right on my right, just get your head in the game. Don't waste opportunities, you'd basically pour my head in. And I've never forgotten that. And I'm always thankful for him for that for having the courage to give me that advice.

Paul Barnett 07:56

Justin, I've got a great quote from you. And it comes from the time you had lunch with the great one of the great coaches of all time, Sir Alex Ferguson, and he said, I got the impression that he really cared for his people. And I think that's what the great coaches do. If your players know you care for them, they'll run through brick walls for you. So I wanted to ask, what are some of the things that you do to show the people in the team that you care for them?

Justin Langer 08:20

Well, I think it's really interesting, because one thing I've learned about coaching and sometimes with public persona, I guess, is, in my case come across as the tough guy running better in the martial artist and the boxer and during the tough guy, right. But what I've learned, actually is that the most powerful form of leadership is showing people love and showing them care. And knowing you've got their back, they're very powerful words, you've got their back. And I've said this, at the end of my coaching career, not only do I hope to be still considering myself as a novice coach, but I'll judge my performance on not necessarily how much silverware I'll win but but how many weddings and Christine's I get invited to from a players. And people think that might sound a bit strange. But what it means is I've had an impact not only on their cricket, but on their lives[PB3] . And I look back, we just talked about mentors. And what I've learned about those great mentors is they wouldn't have taken the time and what was most interesting for me, some of those mentors had gave me the toughest advice and they were so honest and so straight with me. And I could have walked away and go here whatever or I go well coming from them and it changed my life on so many k we could talk about things that have changed my life from mentors. So the point is about the reason they were hard on me or the reason I spent time with me is because they obviously cared about me, because why else would you do it and I think that's the same with coaching is that sometimes care comes in different packages, some comes with a an arm around the shoulder or a hug when things aren't going well. Sometimes it comes with giving him a bit of a clip and getting him back on the right road like righto Mara, and many mentors or friends or coaches have done to me. So it comes in different forms. But as long as you care about them and coming from the advice or the guidance you're giving is coming from a pure place to help them as people that are that you can go wrong[PB4] , actually. And it was really interesting, because Jose Maria, that we were talking about it before we started this recording is that you know, in the playbook and I don't know much about football, but I always thought, Maria, I mean, he's crazy. Like you see him in his press conference, and you see the way he behaves, and data, and he comes across site that made the thing that really stuck out to me from the interview of Maria was how much he loved his players. He loved his players. And I think that's really important. I mean, if you I've always said the reason I'm coaching is to help these young players or young men become great cricketers and great people. So if you have, you're really clear what you stand for as the coach and in my case, your hand on heart, that's what do it for a lover to help these guys grow into really good young men as good a cricket as they become? So from that point, that's where the care factor comes from. The other thing that's Alex Ferguson said to me in about the first two minutes of our lunch at his favorite Italian restaurant in Manchester, was he said, Justin, remember, truth matters? In other words, I said, What do you mean? He said, always tell the truth. You can't go wrong. always tell the truth. always tell the truth. Just be honest. And oh, well, that's my next teller. You want to put it on my arm? Truth, just tell the truth. Oh, how good is that?[PB5]

Paul Barnett 11:39

Well, you know, talking about mentors, early in your career, you were introduced to meditation by the New Zealand cricketer john Wright, who is now gone on to be a great coach in his own right. And I wanted to ask you, what have you learned about mindset, and its impact on performance? From your deep and ongoing practice of meditation?

Justin Langer 11:57

People often say that sport is all mental. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that performance is a synergy between technique and physicality and talent and the mental side of the game of concentration. We're all subscribed to the feeling that elite performance is about concentration. Particularly if you've got a work ethic, you got some talent and you've developed through hours of practice, you've developed a good technique that doesn't matter what sport it is, it's the same but concentration is the core is the essence of great performance, [PB6] but it was sci fi It was 1993. And I was a young guy just played for Australia plays on my fifth Test match. And I was trying so hard because you know, I wanted to be an Australian cricketer. And I was playing with Alan boarder and David Bowie and all these legend Bob Simpson was the coach and ashes. 93 ashes was caught being selected a few weeks after this last test in New Zealand or a duck in both innings. I was trying I saw there's another our belief The harder you try, the worse it gets. You better learn how to let go. But anyway, so we're sitting there after the game and john Wright, who's now a great coach in his own right, he played 100 tests as an opening batsman tough on opening better. Bit of a hippie righty and after the game, I'm sitting there and I'm devastated because I read a duck I probably won't get picked for the ashes. He can he's probably got a cigarette in his hand and a stubby and he walks up to me we talking away and you guys been watching a youngster he said he tried a bit to learn and relax. He said, I think you should learn Transcendental Meditation. I nearly fell off my chair in the change. Oh, transcendental. What is your Transcendental Meditation? I think it might help you and I said I okay, no worries, whatever and got back to my study. Anyway, about six weeks later. It's amazing how the universe works. I didn't get picked for the ashes, brokenhearted end of the world. I never play for Australia. Again. All the stuff that happens when you get dropped for the first time. I open up the West Australian newspaper at mum and dad's house, the city at the time when there's this big advertisement, learn Transcendental Meditation. So I'm gonna write if someone's talking to me here. So I've got on the phone our rain, the guy our ceramic Derrick, in Smyth ride Claremont. I rang him up, I said, I'd like to learn transit. No matter guys, no problem come down. And I've made by meditating every single day since. So this morning, you can see my beads here. I've got Mommy, you can't see them. We're on a recording. But I've got my meditation base. I've got my app. And I've meditate every day. And it's been incredibly powerful for me, I'd recommend it to anyone helped me a lot with my concentration as a player. I think it helps me a lot with my staying grounded and my mindset as a coach and a dad and a person. So it was a great bit of advice from john Wright. And I'm thankful for that as well.

Paul Barnett 14:46

Just in the values of the Australian cricket team honesty, professionalism, humility, learning, and mate ship. Now is the last one on this list. I think that's very unique to Australians, and I guess our national identity. Could you describe What he means to you and why it's so important in the concept of the cricket team.

Justin Langer 15:05

Always I've always said as a player that the camaraderie within a group is like the glue that keeps everything together, particularly when the pressure comes on. [PB7] And I describe it a bit like if you're in the schoolyard with your brother, and he gets in a punch up your goal and you're looking after your little brother or a big brother, no matter what you are, or your best mate in the sport, you're, you're all in to look after your brother. But if it's someone, yeah, he's not a bad blight. Or you might sort of help him out a bit, but you're not all in. So that's where my ship is. So my not and I say to this day, because I've played with it in a great Australian cricket team, Ricky Ponting, Matthew Hayden, Glenn McGrath, Steve war, Damien Martin, and the list goes on. They are literally like Adam Gilchrist they are literally like my brothers today. They are my brothers. And I, I love them so much. And so they're for, I used to say to people imagine, kind of work everyday with your best mates. And you're walking out at the MCG, in front of 80,000 people with your best mates to take on the palms or take up my hair could is that so but it was real. And it wasn't fake. It was it was just real. And that's why I think mate ship and when I first got the job in the Australian team, the first year went to England and we took the boys to the Western Front, extraordinary experience. And then the year after on the way to the World Cup in in the ashes in England, we took them to gleefully and it was just so powerful. I mean, it was just such a sobering and humbling experience and what the all the stories we kept hearing not only about the respect that Turks had for Australians, and in Belgium and France, the respect they had for Australians and the way we fought and the way we help, but the other stores are kicked out with this spirit of mate ship, and how they looked after each other. And that's something that we have always thought about as being an Australian. And it's, it's something I hope we never ever lose that whole feeling that helps in life, but it helps certainly in a sporting team. And on the flip side of that, if you get cracks in that, you quickly get exposed. And we've got some real challenges, or we've had some challenges in the Australian team, which we're working through all the time, because of what happened in Cape Town three years ago, relationships were tested and have been tested. So we're working through that. And we'll become a great team, that the closer our players become to each other. And the greater the level of camaraderie and friendship and trust, the better a cricket team will be and the more they'll enjoy it, because you're getting a punch up with your little brothers, which are your big brother in the schoolyard. Which is, can be fun, because you know, you're earning respect and you got love for each other.[PB8]

Paul Barnett 17:48

You actually it's such an ethical challenge as a leader. It's, and it was so public. And afterwards, you had to reintegrate players back into the team. Now imagine this must have been something you had to do with great care, it would have been very difficult. What did that process of reintegrating them, teach you? What are the lessons that have stayed with you that could be applicable to all of us that are in getting ethically challenged every day?

Justin Langer 18:12

At the time we had Belinda Clark was the high performance manager, outstanding person, you've got to interview her at some point. She is just a legend. I love her. But at the time that we're talking about, and we got a report on a guy, a consultant, Tim Ford, a corporate consultant, outstanding guys just done some workers at the Gold Coast on the way to St. Lucia, just to keep when you talk about developing environments and developing cultures, you can't just put a few fancy words up on the wall or faith and say I we've got a good culture now. No, no, this is it is relentless. And it's the toughest, most tiring thing as the leader. It is relentless. You're going to be on behaviors every single day. Otherwise, the culture changes or the environment changes very quickly. So we go back to the reintegration and Belinda Clark and the same crew at Korea, Australia. And we will bring Tim Tim 14 to reintegrate Steve Smith and David Warner back in the team and I'm going on man, like don't worry about this. does he care though, just come back. And looking back on that time. I'm so thankful I had the time I thought it was overkill. But it was worth every single second of it like the because Tim Ford, he had all the tough conversations. He had the tough conversations, one on one, with David and Steven and the bowlers and all these different groups that were involved. And that went on and then when the boys finally came back into the team in Dubai, leading up to the ashes in the World Cup in England, then it was seamless, because all the conversations ultimately what it comes down to, is having honest conversations. I believe that honest conversations fix everything in the world. But it's bloody hard to have honest conversations because people don't like confrontation. People don't like often hearing the truth but honest conversations can fix it. Everything, but you've got to have the courage one, to have them but to to develop a safe environment where you can have it. That's what team Ford allowed us today. So was it at the time, I thought was overkill? No way. It's worth every single second of effort. And again, most interesting thing for me is that these days are we had the conversations back then. But scars, you know, scars, you've got to keep putting ointment on scars, right? Otherwise, it just there's a scar. So you've always got to keep working away and chipping away because there's always little triggers that keep coming up that bring back memories of the past. So the world we live in and we see it, you've got to be on this all the time, you've got to be having these conversations all the time to just make sure that you're all moving in the right direction together. Otherwise, they're all triggers. Have they have a way of opening up these? And then what feathers? Isn't it that goes all around? Yeah, it's hard to stop when you're if you're not on top of it all the time.[PB9]

Paul Barnett 20:56

So if a team was out there now, and they were trying to recover from a breach of culture, and it could be any team, sports team or community group, corporate team, and they want to get back to being high performing in the sense of there's safety, that where people can have these honest conversations where they can confront each other in a safe environment where they can depend on each other all the elements we read about, but what would you say to them are the one or two things you've talked about caring for the scar tissue? You've talked about honest conversations, is there anything else that you would advise people to do?

Justin Langer 21:26

Yes, get great leaders, great leadership, lead doesn't matter whether it's in a sporting team, a family, an office, a business, right? leadership, leadership is the essence of all this working. And what great leaders do one is they're very, very, very clear on the path, the team or the family or is taking. They know what they don't compromise on, I would say and it's a exercise for anyone listening as well in as a leader, you should be able to write on a little napkin, exactly what you stand for. You often hear in business people talk about you should be describing a couple of sentences, what your business is about[PB10] , when we saw before this conversation. I'm so excited about BNL. Because you told me about check. And I get it and you go, oh, wow, crystal clear. Awesome, right. So you should be able to write on a napkin what you stand. So for. In our case, when I first started the job, and I was very directive early in the pace, I said, Guys, this what we said we've now we're at the bottom of hit rock bottom in Australian cricket, say, jump on or not, but this is what we stand we're going to, we're going to earn back respect. And then that turned into, we're still earning respect, but make Australians proud. I've said those three words nearly every day for three years. So it makes Australia's and you can pull it out of the way Mike's rising by an earned back respect from the rest of the world, we're going to develop you as a great cricketer, a great person. And we're gonna live by these five values. They're not my values, they have values that I've learned in 25 years, I've been involved in Australian cricket, professionalism, because I've never met anyone who's great in sport, who is an elite professional, we're going to have honesty, and we're gonna have honest conversations and they had their buddy had, I still get nervous, I'm going to tell a guy later today is not playing tomorrow, and I still get nervous. And even I do it every single day. So they're hard. They're hard. And you've got to be honest, comes out. And the other honesty is that sometimes was being honest to other people is tough. You've got to be meticulously honest with yourself. You have to be honest with yourself and the man in the mirror and your conscience and all this sort of stuff. But so professionalism, honesty, learning, as long as I've been involved in the Australian cricket team have had this catch cry. As long as you get up every day looking to get better. You and we can get better. And we used to say that we're winning, we won 16 straight Test matches at one point. And we kept saying, as long as you get up every day looking to get better, we can even get better and the rest of the world's going across What better than your winner and yeah, and that's what we believed in. So that was the third one humility, or most of the greats in 98. So the great champions I know I really humble good people, and that's it gets back to the great people, but because it doesn't matter I've learned in Australia, we could win every single game but before we carry on, like Nobbs Australians don't like us anyway. So you've got an I believe you can have both you can have you can be a great performing team and a very likeable team. You can have both and the last one is that concept of mate ship we're going to do this together. way not me. We've got to be doing this altogether. So that is on a table net. You know, I could write down and I find that satisfy. You go back to inquire what are the great leaders do and I'm not suggesting I'm a great leader. What I've learned is they know what they say stand for, you must know what is and you're going to be yourself, you're going to know what your staff but if you don't know what you stand for, and you don't know the direction, how you lead anything, you're not a leader I so I'd say that's the number one and then and then doing it every single day leading by example, there's an old saying, Paul, if you preach excellence and walk mediocrity, You're nothing but a common liar. In other words, anyone can talk a good game. But you've actually got to walk, great leaders walk and talk. And they get their players, they get their people around them. And it takes time. But that's what I'd say is in crisis time. That would be I guess, my greatest learning.[PB11]

Paul Barnett 25:39

It's interesting listening to you, you talk about high care earlier on. And now you talk about high challenge. And it seems to me like you found just a really a workable balance. But I want to build on it slightly differently, actually. Because if I have a bad day at work, no one really knows about it. Maybe my boss sees it every now and again. But your evolution as a leader was recorded, edited and broadcast. And it's a compulsive viewing, particularly if you're stuck in the Czech Republic at Christmas, where it's minus 15. But in that series, the test, something happens to you about a third of the way in your style changes dramatically, and it's very visible. Was that change or that evolution? I think is probably a better word was based on something specific that happened or some feedback that you were given.

Justin Langer 26:26

It's interesting. I've never had anyone comment on that before. And I had lots of people comment. No, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. It's just an interesting observation. I think you've always evolving and the truth is, the first six months of that job was just it was tough. It was, I'd say it was it was easily the toughest six months of my life, or certainly professionally, because I came in when we hit rock bottom with what happened in South Africa, the the chairman, the CEO, the head coach, the high performance manager, the captain, the Vice get know there happened to be our best players. I went there, the whole world was looking a smackers. And I'd come in from outside, so I hadn't had anything to happen in South Africa. But my was was relentless. And then we went to England got beaten five nil by the palms in a one day series, and then we lost in Dubai. So not only are we getting smashed for the whole world, but with him and then losing as well. And oh, man, it was hard. It was very, very, very tough period in my life. In fact, it got to the point. And I've said this a few times publicly that we played India, I think this is probably what you're referring to actually, we played the fourth test. And we got beaten by India at the MCG. And then so all of a sudden, were India have gone to one up in India have never ever been in Australia. In Australia, never say we're under the pump. And then we got to Sydney for the last test match. And my wife and kids were either in Sydney, and we're sitting at the breakfast table, and it was day for the test match. And soon The girls are flying back to Perth that morning. We're at the breakfast table, and my wife stops crying at the breakfast table. And I went what's going on tonight, and my wife says I'm 14 years old. So she's lived through this. She's tough as it comes when it comes to this business, very private, but tough. Because that's all we've known. And she's crying in front of the girls, I go by what's going on? She goes our I don't like what this Job's doing to you. And I like what's doing with to us. I don't like what people are saying about you and Australian creatinine even though you are that and it was really affecting her. And I guess that was a point where I went well. Okay, I have to make a few little changes here. Because I was I was exhausted. I was taking it all personally I was and it's hard, man. It's really real. And that's one of the, I guess the sacrifices or the challenges of leadership, if you've got to be strong, but you've also got to, well, in that case, you gotta have good paper around like we've talked about, but it was really, really hard. But that was that moment when so sitting at the table in front of the girls crying, I'm gone. Okay, I made some changes here. And you have to Kayla, and it happened to be completely honest with you. It happened a couple of months ago, we got beaten by India again in Australia. And it was two weeks after the series and a journalist rang me and he goes, Justin, I'd like to talk to you about your relationships with your players. I said you had great no eyes or a ringing back as a Friday afternoon. He goes, Oh, this is a tough conversation. I said, What do you mean? And he said, Oh, well, you're hearing whispers that you've lost the dressing room and you're this and that you're too intense as to what and then like the world we live in, this is just spread like wildfire, and whether it's truth or not, and it's all through Australia. So all of a sudden I am getting smashed, and it hurts because you've bent spend a long time building your reputation and the irony was in that period where all these articles about how have lost the change room and the players know this and you so intense, literally odd in that period, I've just gone to three of our players weddings. So in the last few months, I've just been to three of our players weddings in a month, right? And the world's telling me, I'm too intense and you're getting special again, you've got to go. Okay, no worries if that's what the word on the street so we addressed it when we got back together in the Gold Coast. The point is, you're always evolving, you're always you've got to keep an eye on you have a barometer on on what's happening within the group, you've got to understand whether how the media works, because that can tear you apart if you let it. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's always evolving, and it's hard for it is hard, man. And you've got to get Ben on. I'm talking a lot here. Sorry about that. But one thing I have also learned is that being a dad of four daughters has helped me in being a head coach for a couple of reasons. One is that all my kids are different. They come from the same place, same upbringing, they're all so different. So a player is going to be different seem to treat them more differently. But the other thing is that we talk about evolution and evolving all the time, I don't treat my 24 year old daughter when she was 18 or 16, or 12 or four years, you evolve, right? And that's what happens that you've got to adapt, you've got to evolve as a leader. I think that's important advice as well.[P12]

Paul Barnett 31:15

I wanted to talk to you about the four girls, actually, because it's a quote and I want to just pick up on this, he said, um, if you want to have a blanket rule, as a coach or a parent, you can Tz it doesn't work. You got four kids, four girls, you've coached the Australian cricket team, and you've had exposure to so many other good and bad coaches around the world. So how do you handle though? The inconsistency in decision making that can come when you're being flexible with the rules?

Justin Langer 31:42

Well, yeah, you're flexible with personalities? I'm not sure you're flexible with the rules, if that makes any sense. I mean, you've got to treat people differently. We got we got some personalities in this team, my gosh, you know, we've got little zams is a little hippie lives in Byron Bay, we've got we've got some serious guys, we've got some fun guys that are all different. But there's also different so it's like enjoying the Platinum club. There's guys who are become great players. I think anyone says you treat them different, they've earned the right to be treated differently than a kid who's just coming into the team for the first time. So you set up an environment where people the most important thing and Adam zamfir interestingly said, I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying this a few weeks ago, before we got to Celeste, she said, jail. The thing I love most about this team now is we're allowed to be ourselves, we can be yourself. And again, that's creating that environment, we can be yourself. And I think I've had two benefits I've got as a coach. One is I'm a dad, like I just said so you treat your daughters differently. So I've got Of course on a treatment plays differently because they're all different, right? The second thing as a coach is I've lived in this shoes, because I was applier. And I there's nothing really that's gonna happen in their lives, their professional lives that I haven't seen one way or the other. So that helps me cuz I've got empathy. I've got empathy and compassion for in the day, I forget how hard to get. And this is what happens to a lot of commentators. I know it's the business, or a lot of the media. They forget how hard the game is. It's so flippin hard. And the day I forget how hard is that it's the dog to walk away. Because then then I'm not training that the players with empathy and respect and compassion, knowing how hard not only performing is, but also being on the road, 250 days a year or 300 day, all that sort of stuff. So I think those things helped me as a coach,[P13]

Paul Barnett 33:35

you've authored five books. And in the intro, we talked about the sixth one coming, what great coaches do differently and maybe the seventh one about mentors. Yeah,

Justin Langer 33:42

I've got a few actually recommend coming up.

Paul Barnett 33:43

Well, maybe you'll get some time when Australian jobs over in the distance, there's an ashes to retain first. But when your daughters come to you, and it's probably not far away, maybe you already happen, because they're going to be moving into management positions. You're going to be moving into leadership positions when they come to you and they ask for advice. And you've got to put it on that napkin. What are you going to tell them?

Justin Langer 34:02

I think it's my first book or a book called saying the sunrise actually, right. The last chapter was an ode to my kids. I laughed for a while other books about Cadbury's caught an eye to my kids. And what are the advice I've given? There's a whole lot of stuff in there. But if my oldest story, there's a couple things I'd say like is one work ethic, guys, and it's really interesting the world we live in now. I mean, there's an old mate of mine was in the SH s and he said jail. Remember, most people can live the drain. Not many people can live the reality. In other words, a lot of people want the Green Berets and bns as soldier or alive they want a baggy green cap and be ply for Australia. Why don't they want to drive a Mercedes Benz or live in a mansion or why don't they want there they want to be the CEO. I want to be the captain. A lot of people you can drain that that's easy to drain it out. But man when it comes to reality, we got to work for it. And in the world we currently live in I don't think people it's almost a dying Dying philosophy, you've actually got to work for shit.[P14] So you go to work. And this is going to be the dumbest thing you've probably ever heard. But my little girl My 15 year old daughter, Gracie, she plays netball loves it. And she's a really good netball and she said to me a few weeks ago before I come away, Daddy, I just want to do a bit of running because I want to get fit because I want to give me an even better netball. I'm going awesome. Darla, let's go. Let's do that. It'd be great, beautiful. She goes Okay, can we just try doing two kilometer run? I said, Yeah, we'll go for two kilometer run. No worries. Yeah, let's go. And just before this goes, I'd dad and the other thing I've got to do in seven minutes, 30 seconds. And I said, What do you mean, darlin? She hasn't been told I should be able to come in seven minutes. 30. Now remember, our late athletes are doing it, let's say a cut off for our men's cricket team. Like you want to do anything I met. But she and then I go down a property type thing? No, no, no, no, no. Because on social media or animators I know seven minutes. 30. Right. But it's a fairy tale. That's not it's not real. So then what happens is, she does amido like 30 minutes, and we do a little jog. And she walks a few times because she's tired. She hasn't run until he comes in on life. Right? And then she thinks he's failed. So then what can I do? Unless you keep encouraging her or she keeps going, I want to get better. I want to work at it. She'll just, she'll quit. She won't do it anymore. Because she thinks he's failed. And she'll tell the kids at school and now go have never done a to K run in their life. They go Oh, yeah, well, you must have been because you. The point is, you've got to work. If I tell my kids that you got to have a work ethic, you've got to, you've got to work, you've got to work. You've also and it's so much rubbish cliche now, but you got to find some balance in your life, kids, because it can't be about work. But you've got to work. And you've got the other thing. And biggest advice I give to my kids have j be in and I know what that means. Just be nice. Be a nice person. It is amazing how far you get him up by just being a nice person. Work hard. Be a nice person. Okay? Can't be that simple dad. No, no, you know, lost complex. But if you live by those two things, set your goals that is really powerful writing down goals, but work hard, be a nice person, set some goals and have a crack.[P15]

Paul Barnett 37:18

You've been so generous with your time. Today, I'm gonna ask one last question. Maybe it's too difficult to answer. I don't know. But I'll throw it out there anyway, in the next 1520 years, when you do hang up the whistle, and you're all finished. What's the legacy that you hope you've left as a coach?

Justin Langer 37:34

Well, there's a great when we talk about leadership, if I could sum it up in this is, what I've learned is the origin of the word leadership comes from leading the ship. Now Australia was discovered by the ship's right. So way back was about leading the ship to the shore. So and what I've learned from leading the ship is the captain of the ship really needs to come out three times. First time is when there's a crisis, or when the iceberg presents think about the Titanic, when the iceberg presents, if you are not on top of your game, and you have got everything right, guess where people die? Because you hit the iceberg and the ship sinks and people die. Right. So in the case of Australian cricket, no one died, we put sandpaper on the ball in Capetown. But a lot of people were affected. The whole all of Australia was affected, let alone the people in leadership positions are affected and now suspended are no longer within the Australian cricket team. So the captain the ship, number one has to come out in the toughest of times. When the iceberg presents, the second time that captain of the ship needs to come out is when there's stormy waters. And you've got to use all your skill to get through the stormy waters to get to the next destination. And we have store life is stormy waters, right? So whether it's COVID, whether it's losing wind loss, whether it's, you know, things are going on all the time, whether it's expectation, stormy waters, is when the captain of the ship needs to come out because when it's all flat, it's okay, you know, you can just get to the next destination. So the catalytic needs to come out in stormy waters. And we've seen this My gosh, so this COVID period in the last three years. So first was the crisis. Second COVID, which is put all sorts of new challenges to the world and no different to our business, the cricket world. The third time the capitalist ship needs to come out. It's been this Mutiny on deck. I've seen that and you see that and whenever I'm talking publicly to people, I asked this question, whatever their businesses you know, I talked to corporates or acid. If I was to ask you what the toughest part of your job is. I wonder what you'd say and they sort of looking at me funny and I go if I said the toughest part was dealing with People. And as soon as I say that you can see them all go, oh, they're almost putting the hands on and they're all nodding their head down. Yeah, dealing with paper when there's Mutiny on deck. So the toughest part of leadership is dealing with people. And the things we've talked about today, Paul, love, compassion, at times discipline, whatever it is, but you must deal with people[P16] . So at the end of it, what would the my legacy be? I'd say, hopefully people say when that was really tough, Justin stood up when there was stormy waters. And despite all the pressures, he stood up, and his people invited him to weddings and christenings because he showed him care and compassion and there was times where he had to be strong with his people is respected by his people that will hopefully be their legacy. I'd leave and I hope we were in a few ashes and World Cups[P17] .

Paul Barnett 40:55

Later, what a privilege highlight for me to spend an hour with you today, listening to your thoughts on leadership, all the best for the road ahead, and I can't wait to watch that Australia team retain the ashes.

Justin Langer 41:07

Thanks, Paul. Thanks for the invitation again,