Kevin Eastman edit
Mon, Feb 12, 2024 11:44AM • 53:29
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
team, players, kevin, people, legacy, word, wanted, culture, leadership, game, coach, celtics, shot, talk, point, nba, speaking, basketball, play, nike
SPEAKERS
Eric Knight, Paul Barnett, Kevin Eastman
Paul Barnett 00:00
Well, Kevin Eastman. Good morning. Hello, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Kevin Eastman 00:06
Yeah, thanks. Appreciate you having me on. And he thought it might be the early part of the day for you guys. It's the afternoon for us. So I'm ready to go.
Paul Barnett 00:16
Right. Thank you for always working. So that, of course, is the voice of my co host, Professor Eric Knight, Eric, how are you?
Eric Knight 00:27
I'm Well, Paul, I was just saying you're always working. So it's always a good time to do an interview. Thank
Paul Barnett 00:32
you very much. That is true. I am always working if only it is on my golf game. But Kevin, could we start with something really simple? Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Kevin Eastman 00:45
Yeah, well, currently, I'm sitting in my home office in Richmond, Virginia. And this is where my wife Wendy. And I chose to live after I got out of the NBA, which is for those who, who maybe don't follow the professional basketball league over here. So I've been out for about, gosh, maybe eight years now. And when I left there, I knew what I was going to get into. And that was kind of into the world of speaking. Both with sports teams and with corporate teams. So the last seven years, eight years, whatever it's been, that's what I've been doing and enjoying it, and also enjoying opportunities to listen to and learn from other people, which is kind of the platform that that you have created here. A lot of people over there, maybe around the world, probably. Well,
Paul Barnett 01:36
thanks. Thanks, Kevin. In fact, I was brought to your attention through one of the coach developers here at the Australian Institute of Sport, who recommended that I connect with you because of your LinkedIn profile and the great social media presence that you have. So very much looking forward to talking with you today about all things teams, and basketball, and perhaps more generally, just leadership. But Kevin, can we start with the book, I read it over the summer break over the Christmas break, it's called why the best of the best 25 powerful words that impact, inspire and define champions. So firstly, congratulations. It's an excellent read, I think, particularly for anyone that wants to improve their own self leadership. And you know, one of the ideas in the book that resonated with me very strongly, which this one will you say, be there before you get there? And I wanted to ask you, firstly, can you tell us how you've applied this concept in your own life?
Kevin Eastman 02:36
So we're jumping in right away. Okay. So be there before you get there really is my definition for preparation. And I guess, maybe, if you have a lot of people who enjoy leadership, they'll know the name Stephen Covey. And he mentioned many times about, you know, start with the end in mind. And that truly what it is, you know, I want to be somewhere even as simple as a speaking engagement, I actually want to get up onto the stage. And in particular, quite frankly, it's two things I look at how wide is the audience, I'm speaking to literally how, why? Because I might want to have to walk from one side of the stage to the other. So I can have connection with both sides and the entire audience. But the most important thing, and this may sound silly, but you guys both have probably spoken in front of groups, and you do not want this to happen. I want to know where all the cords of all the wires are. There's nothing worse than being introduced. And they think you're God's gift to the subject that you've been given to speak on. And five minutes into the talk, you go down, right, and you trip over a wire. So as silly as that sounds, I'll always know where everything is. And then another thing is that was on a speaking engagement. And there was another speaker prior to me, and something went wrong with the, with the PowerPoint that he had. And you could tell it shook him up. And almost got him to the point of a little angry, like, you know, you brought me in here. And this is a beautiful hotel. And why is this happening? Right? Well, I already know what I'm going to do. I ever since I've been doing this, right, I already know what I'm going to do if that happens, right? So I want to be there before I get there. So really, whatever it is, whatever task we have, whatever goal we have, whatever we want to try and accomplish, we should know, like, what does that end look like? Or at least have a feel of that, and then build backwards, right? I want to make sure that once I get to that end, I've done everything possible to make sure that end actually looks like what I thought it would look like when I started. So that's for me really what it's all about. And then I guess the last thing I'd say with that, and in particular the word preparation because that's the definition be there before you get there is preparing for something is the I believe ultimate form of respect for whatever it is the people you're speaking to the tasks that you have in front of you, you put the time in to make sure that you have put yourself in a position to be the very best at whatever it is you've been asked to do, or whoever it is you've been asked to speak to. So that's kind of probably a long answer to a short question. No,
Paul Barnett 05:32
I, it's a great answer. And I think as we go through this interview today, and we get into your store, this idea of respect coming before the opportunities are presented to you will, will come through quite quite strongly. But if I could just build on this idea of words a little bit more, Kevin, because again, in the opening of the book, you have this great quote, you say, I became convinced that success comes down to the words people live by the concepts they execute, and the understanding of the context around both. And so if I just step back a little bit more and take this high level, what do you think are the most important words teams could use to focus their energies?
Kevin Eastman 06:16
Yeah, well, and I'm not here to sell books by any means. But allow me to just reference the book, because it will help me answer this question. But really, the book was written for, it's a burning desire, I had to find out, like, why do some people make it and some don't? When I was a little boy, and I fell in love with basketball, I had pictures on my wall, and the back of my door of the professional players over here. And I always used to think why did that guy make it but a whole bunch of players play and they didn't make it? Right? So So I was on a, almost a 35, year to 40 year quest, unbeknownst to me, it was just a curiosity I had, so I was always looking out for it, in what I read and who I talked to, but So ultimately, it came down to when anyone was asked, or if I was in a discussion, someone and I asked them, Hey, how did you get to where you've gotten? Like, what made you become as good as you'd become? I started to figure out that there were certain words that were in every single answer, no matter what now, it wouldn't be that this word is in all 7000 people I came in contact with over my life, no, but they came up. So consistently, I started to think, wow, there must be something to this. And it gets back to what you said originally, words become the most powerful when we define them, and live them, that's when they become powerful, not just to have them in your vocabulary. Like that's the difference. Some people have these words in their vocabulary that are in the book, but other people live these words.
So over the 35 years that I was kind of just both intentionally and unintentionally studying this, I found out that there were really four letters 25 total, I first started out with a list of 93. And I thought, wow, if I'm going to put a book together, I can't put 93 I'll get bored with reading, right? So I kind of whittled it down because some were pretty similar. And I got it down to 25. And then of the 25, the more I went back and looked at my notes and the conversations I had, etc, etc. My research, I guess you'd say, there were four that came out most frequently. And there's one that I believe is the single most important word in all of success, no matter what we do, no matter what any of your listeners are doing. Whatever industry they're in, craft they're working on. The single most important word and all of success is the word truth. Truth. And the reason I say that is because how can we get to where we want to go, without knowing the truth about what we're doing? Well, let's keep doing that and try and enhance that. And more importantly, what I found from the best of the best is, they appreciate when you tell them, they did something well, but they really want to know what they're not doing well, that can take them up that little bit that 1% that we keep reading about in the books, right? You make them a little bit better. So for me, truth was the single most important word in all of success because it allowed me to know where I where I stood. [PB1]
Now it's important when we're not we haven't gotten into truth tellers and all that sort of stuff, right and who's around you and who's in your circles and all that. Right. So and in no particular order.
And really the acronym for this is tips. Tip S these are the four with the T truth being number one, the other three are The word intentional. And for me, as I said, I define these, right? And intentional is what we do on purpose, to fulfill our purpose. What are we doing on purpose each and every day to fulfill our purpose as a coach, as a manager, as a director of a department, as a sociology professor, what are we doing on purpose to make sure we fulfill that purpose to the best of our ability. So that's intentional. Preparation, was another word that came up all the time, and we just spoke about that. It's definition in my illogical mind, I guess is be there before you get there. And then the last word that came up most often was the word standards. And we simply define it as what you are willing to live up to, or what you are willing to intentionally dip down to. And we put that word intentionally in there because we wanted to, it's your choice, you're dipping down to those low standards, right? So those are the four that and when you speak of teams, my goodness, teams in sports or teams in the corporate world, they, they've got to have those four things present, available and living those things each and every day to be we think, to become their best.[PB2]
Eric Knight 11:30
So Kevin, building on that a little bit, I mean, words, sometimes in response to questions, and you talk about the power of great questions. I mean, I'll let you give a scorecard to pull an AI afterwards around how questions are today? But But could you just say something about? You know, what are the challenging questions that great teams ask themselves?
Kevin Eastman 11:52
Well, first off, that's a good question.
And what immediately came to front of mind, not just to mind, but immediately to the front? was, what am I willing to sacrifice? What am I willing to sacrifice for this group? Because what we define team as as when you're working with one or more people, so what am I willing to sacrifice because all of us can't do everything we want to do every minute of every game of every year. But we look at sacrifice in two ways. There's the ways that winnings, team winning teams look at sacrifice. And I believe there's a difference in the way the winner looks at sacrifice this word. And there's a difference. You know, there's some teams out there that do a lot of winning, but they're never the winner. And in pro sports in particular, especially in the NBA, I mean, you, you get into that as a coach and a player, ultimately, to win something that you can't buy. Right? Even though they make all that money, they can't buy the the world championship ring that we got in 2008 with the Celtics, right? So it comes down to question number one would be, what are you willing to sacrifice. And if we asked the common person on the street define sacrifice for us, they would probably say something to the effect of, it's something I give up. And it truly is, you do have to give up something for the betterment of the team. But to take that a step further to what we found the best, the best teams, the ones that really are, are, are competing for becoming the best and ultimately become the best. It's not something you just give up. It's also something you do for it's not just what you give up. It's what you do for a teammate. [PB3] [PB4]
So maybe we had a player by the name of round who was a great shooter, one of the best shooters ever to play basketball over here in the States. And maybe he's going up into his shot, and coming at him as a seven footer with a long wingspan, but Ray still can probably take that shot and make it but again on our Celtics teams, he saw in the corner, another really good player by the name of Paul Pierce, opened in the corner for an even easier shot. So he passes the ball to Paul, if Ray were on this call, he would say I didn't that's not a shot I gave up. It's something I did for the team. Because that was a little bit better than my shot that I could have taken even I might have been able to make it. I knew Paul had a higher percentage of probably making his shot. So what do you sacrifice? The other two that we always asked is Alright guys, let's sit down here and let's talk this thing out. What defines a winning team? What is it? It could be words, it could be a sentence, just what is it? Right. And we wanted them to tell us and each other what that looked like, right? And then when they said whatever it was, it could be unselfishness. It could be a concentration in practice, it could whatever, those seven to 10 things were, we then went back with each and every one of them when we said, Okay, are you willing to be held accountable for this one? And most of the times, they answered yes to every one of them. So okay, we got that out of the way. They've now given us permission, they may not like it. I'm not saying that. But they've given us permission to, to hold them accountable. And then the other one we asked the teams, or teams was what defines a losing team. And many times, it'll be the opposite of what they just said, defines a winning team. But we still wanted to talk that out. So I would say those would be three questions with the sacrifice one being the most important, and that one in particular, would go to our best players. Right? Like when we won the championship in 2008, we had three Hall of Fame players on our team, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce. And the first meeting that Doc Rivers had with all three of them in the same room together, that was the first question he asked, What are each of you willing to sacrifice? And then we explained, it's not just something you give up, it's also something you do for the team. So those would probably be the the questions that we would ask.
Eric Knight 16:31
Second, Kevin, building on that, in your time at the Celtics, I mean, another team principle or a team principle you had there was that it's more important to get it right then for you to be right. But just wondered if you could speak a little bit to what that principle means, and also how you implement that in practice?
Kevin Eastman 16:51
Well, make sure I get back to implement in practice, but really, again, these are discussions we had with our team, you know, you can lead by guessing and hoping. Or you can lead by finding out what really is the truth. We chose to do that. And we chose the, the way we chose to do that was just to sit in a room face to face, not finger to finger click to click, but face to face, eye to eye, and let's talk this thing out. Guys, what if we want to win a championship? Do we have to do the right things or the wrong things? On the court? They'll all say the right things. Okay. So is it important that we get the most important right thing to do? Done? Right? They'll all say yes. Right? So we say, okay, will there be times when there's going to be some conflicting thoughts on what the right thing is to do? They're going to say, Yes, right. So we said, okay, then this is what we really need to talk about. If we all agree that this is the right thing, we're all going to do that. But in those instances where there might be two or three guys that really believe in what they think is the right thing to do. Let's talk that out. And then we also talk about the hierarchy of leadership. We all want to be we wanted our teams to be involved in the decision. But at some point, a person has to make the decision. In our case, it was the head coach. And we would ask our guys, are you in agreement with that? Like, at some point, someone has to make the decision? They all said yes. Right? So it got down to what we're talking about. Now. We all can't be right all the time. Right? And we have to be okay with maybe it's not our suggestion that gets utilized. Right? We want your input, but it may not always be your suggestion. [PB5]
And backtracking now keep in mind, anyone that came into the organization, they knew what our culture was about, and one of the foundational pillar pillars of our culture was truth. You are going to hear the truth and you're going to accept the truth from someone else. So along those lines, that meant that even though Kevin Eastman gave what he thought was the best thing for us to do, ultimately, we decided on something that Eric suggested, because the more we talked it out that really for where we were right then and there, that was the that was the right thing to do. Right. So for us, that was kind of one of the things that we did, we also had a right and wrong test. As silly as this is. And we figured out maybe 10 to 12 things, okay. Coming late to practice every day, guys, right or wrong? Well, wrong. Not competing very hard and again, right or wrong, and we kept on going down, right. So at the end of that particular session, It was okay, this is what you told us is the right way to do things. And that's maybe going to be our filter with which we make these decisions going forward. Right? So because what happens and you guys have seen it because you've been in or studied sport, probably or watched it for sure.
Your best players are usually also have one of the ingredients, they have personality ingredients is stubbornness. Because the way they've done is has gotten them to that level, at that point in their career. So So for us, we look, ultimately, we have to make the decision. And you don't always have to be right. But as a team, we need to get this right. And then we have to work hard. Here's the other problem with that, Eric, is that maybe the person or people who didn't get the something done the way they wanted to? Maybe they try and subtly sabotage that decision? No, no. The other thing we talked about was, we have to make it work. While we're seeing if it works. Because everyone who's listening to this today, even in the highest level of leadership may be positions that that are on this call. Any change you make any big decision you make. And I hate to say this, but I kind of believe it. It's a researched, educated guess. We don't know. So we what we have to do is we have to make it work while we're seeing and evaluating if it works. [PB6] [PB7]
So and what was the other one?
Eric Knight 21:35
Just in terms of, you know, implementing this idea which you're speaking to, but just the kind of when you turn that principle into action, whether the stress whether the stresses life, in our experience.
Kevin Eastman 21:49
Like yes, the stresses would lie, lie in high pressure situations when quite possibly what we decided to do didn't work. Right? Well, because we started, we try and make as many decisions as we can, and talk about things as much as we can, as a team as a unit as a group as an organization. Before we get into that emotional moment. Because we try and make some of the things that decisions ahead of time logically when emotions don't play a part. Right? So we would have probably well not would have we discussed that as well, as a staff look, if something doesn't go right in the game. And maybe Eric said we should do this. Right. But Paul said, We should do this, we kind of went with Paul's decision, because it seemed the most right at the time, but it's not working. Right? Maybe in a huddle. At a timeout, we might say, Hey, guys, look, we're going to make an adjustment here. And this is what we're going to do now. Right now after the game, if they if Eric, you want to come in and say hey, that was great. We'll patch on the back and say great, right? So but again, I think all of the preparation, all of the conversations, all the communication, prior to the season starting and constant reminders throughout the season, about things like this, help you get through these things when they're actually happening, if that makes sense.
Paul Barnett 23:24
One of the things I find fascinating reading about the NBA, Kevin is the players are so transient, that you know, they move so often. And this must be difficult when you're trying to establish a team culture. And wondering, over your journey, what have you found have been the most effective ways for people to integrate themselves when they step into a new culture?
Kevin Eastman 23:50
Well, I think it starts as you evaluate that particular person, you're you're wanting to join your program. We wanted people that in our research, we found out that they they thrived and could produce at the level we needed production out of them in a culture like ours. Right. So that's number one, trying to do the best job you can to try and get culture fits. And, and really that came down to Values fits, right? We wanted to bring in people whether it be with in the ticket office, whether it be in the front office that does the scouting or whether it be a player, we wanted to bring like valued values people, but not necessarily like thinkers, right. We wanted diversity of thought. But we wanted we wanted like values. For instance. You know, integrity was one of ours. So we didn't want to bring in someone who's gotten to where they've gotten because he's a notorious or she's a notorious cheater. Right? It wouldn't make sense it wouldn't work. So we do the research ahead of time is this person to fit in our culture? And then one of the things that we often say is, is this to any player coming in? Look, you're, we trade it for you, because we think you can help us get to where we want to go. But you have to understand we have a culture here. So you have to become us. We don't become you. Right? You have to integrate into how we do things, right? We don't do everything. Oh, yeah, Coach, I love your culture, except, you know, I only practice one day a week, and I only go 15 Hard ministering that practice. I just want you to know that ahead of time. No, no, no, we don't become you know, that ain't gonna work here. Right. So that's, that's the next thing. [PB8]
The next thing is to have a culture clarity conversation. Being very clear, on day one, before they even one bead of sweat goes out of their forehead onto their practice uniform guy. Paul, this is our culture. Right? And usually, it'd be one of the the assistant coaches kind of maybe breaking that down for a player and letting them ask any questions about it. And, you know, if it were me talking to the player, I probably remind them periodically through the first few weeks, maybe month and a half, just about culture. Right? Hey, see that? See, see, see what Eric did. That's that that he verbalized our culture right there. Now, nobody would know that outside of our team, but that's our culture. See what he did when that guy went on the floor, and he ran over and helped him up. That's our culture. Because anytime a plus person can see and feel the culture, rather than just hear it, it's got a better chance, we think of number one being understood and hopefully being internalized. So the clarity, conversation. And people have different definitions of clarity. You know, the one I hear the most is just making sure that people understand what you're what you mean. Now, that that ain't working in today's world, we didn't want to get them to just understand, we wanted to get them to the point where what we said was so clear that it was impossible to misunderstand what we were saying. That's what that's what clarity meant to us. [PB9]
And we would break it down. You know, our basic, our basic culture dealt around this concept that and you may want to talk about it later, we may want to or not an African way of life called him butuh. That was a big part of our championship culture, right that we had known about prior to Doc running into a actually a professor on Marquette University's campus one summer. So but in case you want to get to that later, I'll stop there.
Paul Barnett 27:48
Just on the values piece, Kevin, I think what supports that story, or what underpins that story? Is the story of how you joined the Celtics? And how you got there through a meeting with Doc son Jeremiah. Could you talk a little bit about that? The events that led up to that meeting? And then how doc approached you did? My
Kevin Eastman 28:16
goodness, you guys have done your research? I forgot about that. I should have had you guys I should have had you guys talk to me and ask me questions. Before I wrote the book, I would have remembered more stuff about my life. But and you guys have probably had that experience, too. All of a sudden someone says something to you. And you're like, dang, I haven't thought of that in like 20 years. How did they know that and I forgot it anyway. So it goes with one of my life's philosophies. And in at that time, I was in obviously, the world of basketball. Now I'm in the world of speaking. But one of my philosophies when I was in the world of basketball went like this, never pass up a basketball opportunity. So I'm going to try and fast break the story. I'll probably have to leave a lot. But in essence, when I left the NBA for a year, then I got back into it. But I left it for about a year, I went to work for Nike. And one of the things they had me do because I was one of the better skill development coaches in the country over here. They had me go around the country and workout with a whole bunch of players. Well, their key players, the guys that eventually wanted to wear the shoe, the Nike brand when they got to be a pro. So they also would send me to the T AAU teams, the summer basketball teams that these elite players played on. So one of my assignments was to go down to Orlando, Florida and work out this team. Well, they only ever give me the best players names. And I'm not going to give the last name but the best player on this team was Keith. So when they wanted me to start to develop a relationship with Keith, but work out the entire team. So I work out the entire team and the way I would work out is you know I'd be on the floor with them. Pushing grind and hold and write fouling, sweating. Right? Because one thing I found out when you're still developing coaches, players love coaches who sweat with them. They love coaches who sweat with them who get in there and do it with them. Right? So So I go ahead and do that after about two hours. We're done. I go on, I get on the plane the next morning, I fly out. Well, never am I asked to come back a second time. Right? So about 10 days later, Nike says, Hey, we want you to go back to Orlando and work out that same team again. So I said, okay, I'm good with that. So I said, I've seen it myself, man, they must really think this Keith guy is good, right? Because the first time I had to go back a second time, so I go in as I walk into the gym, the high school coach of the gym, we were using, he says, Kevin, are you okay? If we film this, in my mind immediately went out. He probably wants to use it for his team. So I said, Yeah, Coach, I'm good with that. If you want to film it, usually with your team. Yeah, go ahead. Whatever you need to do. So we go through the next one. Well, one of the players on the team after the first workout, went home and told his father you know, just hey, you parent, right summer basketball coaches, parent, a dad, like this guy we had was really good. He sweated with us. He knew the game. He knew how to teach. We could relate to him all these positive things. And that, you know, the parent was like, Oh, good. I'm glad that Nike does that for you guys. Well, the second time I go back, same thing goes again. Well, I come to find out the parent that this kid went home to to tell the dad about me, that parents name was Doc Rivers, who was on the verge of getting the Boston Celtics head coaching job, right. So the reason I had to go back, Doc asked the high school coach who was a friend to record the workout. And I think he did it because he wanted to see if his eyes saw what Jeremiah's eyes saw, right? Because you know, kids are he's thinking that a Jeremiah, he can't evaluate a coach. Right? So anyway, and I said no to the opportunity. When Nike asked me to do the the, the, the the workouts, I wouldn't be talking to you today. Right? So and then obviously the other lesson there is, do the best you can. That's where you are that day. And eventually, I believe if you're supposed to get somewhere, the success Gods Will will take care of you. If you take care of yourself and you you take care of the people that you've been asked to work with. So that's how that story went, is
Paul Barnett 32:50
a great line in the book. It's a small line towards the end. Where you say, there's always a shortlist, even if you don't know there is a shortlist. And I circled it. And I thought what a great example of a mindset to take to work everyday. And I think that story you just shared is a great illustration of that, that inaction.
Kevin Eastman 33:13
Yeah, and the other thing there is you never know who's watching. You never know who's listening. You just never know. And then the other thing I think is just the lesson of the word pride. Do your best that particular time where you are right have pride in your work. And then if someone you know, if someone sees it that can can eventually jumpstart your career. You know, more power, more power to that, that experience.
Eric Knight 33:48
So Kevin, maybe let's just loop back to Ubuntu because you talked a bit about that. Can you just say a little bit about the meaning behind that philosophy and how it builds or built connection in the in the Celtics?
Kevin Eastman 34:03
Yeah, you know, connections have a huge word right now, not only in all the the leadership and team books, but just within teams themselves, especially and I'm sure all across the world. But you see like, today is the is the evening of the College National Football Championship game. And when you read about both programs, the University of Washington, the University of Michigan, inevitably the article will point to their team is so connected, right?
So we're in Bucha, who helped us was it had two basic foundational pillars or two Basic Tenets that really fed this concept of team and the two tenants are. People are people because of other people. People are people because of other people. And the second tenet is, I can only be all I can be if you are all you can be. So let's look at the first one. People are people because of other people. Over here in the NBA the professional basketball league, as well, everyone knows the name Lebron James. Well, the first year LeBron went to the Los Angeles Lakers, not quite so good. Then they traded to get this guy by the name of Anthony Davis, who's a very good very, very, very good basketball player. Right? Six LeBrons, seven footer highly skilled, and they added some other pieces around LeBron. They won the championship. Right? LeBron needs more than just LeBron to win championships. Right? So that's where it's people are people because of other people, LeBron is at his best when others do their job and help him put him into positions where he can do his best job to. So that's tenant number one. The second one is I can only be all I can be if you are all you can be. Okay, so trying to think of it well, maybe you won't know the names, but with the championship, Boston Celtics team, we had the player I was talking about Ray Allen. He's in the Hall of Fame right now, the Basketball Hall of Fame here. He was the great shooter. We also had a player on that team by the name of Rajon Rondo. He was a point guard. He was a great passer, great passer not good, great. Well, they needed each other because Rashaan wanted to lead the NBA in assists. Ray wanted to lead the NBA in three point field goal percentage. So when we're John's coming down the floor and penetrating into the lane, and he says sees Ray wide open in the corner, and he throws him a pass. The first thing is he has to give them a great pass. Because if he gives them a pass down by his ankles, it's going to take too long for Ray to get it to here is shooting pocket and then eventually take the shot, chances are the shot doesn't go in. So Ray needed Rashaan to throw a great pass. And great shooters will tell you they want the pass between their chest and their shoulder. Because then they go right up into the shot, they don't want it down below their waist because that's going to take a second to get it to the shooting pocket right so Ray needed RG John to throw a great pass while resigned needed ray to make the shot in order to get the assist. So that's a prime example right there of I can only be all I can be the three point percentage leader of the NBA, if you are what, what you can be rich on being a great passer.
So that is the to that's the that's the foundation of an butuh. And where it creates connection is an Bucha is all about caring for someone else. And think about all of our lives, who we most connected to the people who probably have a care and concern for us. Right? It's our it's our wives and our children, whatever, whatever it is, it's our best friends. We know they care about us. And that's that's that that's the glue, that that is an Bucha that keeps them Bucha together. And the other thing it does, you know, the other thing about this word connection is we found especially in a leadership position, you can create connections by sharing your story. Right? Because the ultimate form of leadership is to get to the to get a peace of the mind, or the ultimate goal get a peace of the mind of the people you are leading. When they're at work, making sure their mind is on their work, right? How do you get a peace of the mind, because leadership is about two spaces mind space, MI, nd we believe anyway we believe, and heart space. And the reason I say heart space is spaces in order to get to the mind. We try to travel through the heart, building the relationships, sharing our stories, right helping our people, right. And then the other part of this connection thing is going through adversity we found help us became become a little bit more connected because we had to go through something hard, something difficult, something where we all had a pitch in right where we all had to really not only know our roles, but execute our roles to the to the nth degree in order to get our way out of this hole or this adversity. [PB10] [PB11]
So those will be some of the the ways I think, to answer that question. Building
Eric Knight 39:48
on what you were touching on there, Kevin, you know, you've got this philosophy of oneness and being for others. At the same time, you're in a competitive environment you're dry In championships, how do you deal with internal competition? I mean, you deal with the fact that that people have got their, their competitive by nature, and they're put into a competitive situation. How do you deal with that? How that must come up all the time? How do you reconcile that and work with them in the context of your team philosophy?
Kevin Eastman 40:21
Well, again, you start before you actually start, you have that conversation about competition. And first, we define competition, because there's fake competitors. In our sport, the guy who dives after a loose ball on the floor, and has no chance of getting it, but it looks good. And the coach will say, Wow, he's really playing hard. No, he's playing stupid, right? The balls out of bounds. Right? How about playing hard when three guys dive after the ball, then dive after that's a competitor, right? So competition is defined by us as your are still playing hard and giving your best effort, even when you are playing horribly. Meaning maybe your shots not going in and you're turning the ball over, but you're still playing hard. And the other part of the definition of competition is, you're still you're still playing hard and giving your best effort, even when you're down by 33 points. Because that's when you can tell the true competitor when you're being soundly beaten. Or when your game is so bad that particular night. What do you do do you give in right now, so a competitor doesn't give in. So that's number one. Number two, we talked about, hey, look, guys, only five players can start each game. And we've done this exercise before, we have asked all of our players to write down the number of minutes they think they should play per game. Our game is let's let's look at the college game. The college game is 40 minutes long. So there's five players on the floor at one time. So five times 40 means there's 200 minutes available in every game for your team. Well, when we add up all those minutes that our players say they should be playing, it comes out to like 331. So we tell our guys, okay, look, there's 131 minutes. How do we, how do we do this, guys, everybody can't play as much as they want to play. And you have to trust us as a coach, we're going to put the players in there that should be in there at that particular time of the game. Right. And that'll be based on what we see in practice. What we see when you get minutes in a game, you know, we have this term over here, I don't know if you do Garbage Time, the end of the game when maybe the games already decided, you know, you might be winning by 30 or being losing by 30. And you put maybe the end of your bench in we we educate our guys, that's not garbage time. That's proving time. Proving time. Lay great through those 20 minutes, even though we're down 30 Show us that you are playing the way we need you to play. Right? So look in a few in competitive sports. Some guys play some guys don't. And you just got to kind of talk it out. But we talk ahead of time that this is going to happen to be to you guys. We don't know who just yet. Because maybe over the course of a year, we might have nine different starting lineups. Right. And you guys have a term Do you have a term over there called next man up? You know, somebody gets injured next man up. Yeah, we don't believe in that term. Anybody can be next man up, we want next man prepared. Next man prepared. So even though they're not playing, we're spending high quality time with them before practice after practice, to try and get their skills up their their level of understanding of how we want to play up so they can get more minutes. Right. So competition is just a fact of life when you're in a sport. And we don't want the competition, we want to compete in practice and push people in practice, because the starter if he's being pushed by the second unit guy a little bit harder than maybe some other teams are competing against. That's going to make our starter better, too. Right. So you know, it's a difficult, it's a difficult difficult thing. And what we simply do is we try and we try and talk our guys through it, and what we're thinking and why we're thinking that because the question everybody asked who's not playing? They all ask the coach this question, how can I get more minutes? How can I play more? And you have to have the answer for that. And that answer is different for different players. Right? So it's, again, we're not going to rely on hoping guessing We're just going to sit down with our guys explain it to them as best we can. And they may still leave that meeting, that conversation pissed off. But at least you put it out there this is this is why you are where you are. So and they know our intent is to, like if you're going to play it, there's there's what they call YMCA basketball over here, youth basketball. That's where everybody plays have a good time everybody plays Kumbaya? Well, as you climb that ladder, only the players who should be on the floor or on the floor, it's competitive. So you got to be able to deal with that. And then when you get your minutes, you got to be able to be productive in those minutes. But we'll prepare you just like we prepare the starters, we'll prepare you for those minutes. We'll keep you in shape. We'll make sure you know the game plan all the things that go into being a productive player on the floor. We're going to do that for you. So that's kind of how we deal with it. It's not easy, though. And I mean, Kevin conversations, right. Yep, some hard conversations.
Eric Knight 46:11
So Kevin tacking a latest perspective than for point on this. I mean, you've said the great leaders can see the invisible. Can you say a little bit around one of the things that they see? Yeah,
Kevin Eastman 46:24
I think they see the invisible and hear the inaudible. Right. We had a saying around our programs called by know what he said, but what did he say? I know what he said, but what did he say? Right. And that might be, I can think of an example, we had this real kind of hockey rookie that played for us, I'm not going to name the name. And we had this guy named Kevin Garnett, who's like one of the best players ever to play the game of basketball. He's in the Hall of Fame now. So after the game, the cocky rookie was asked, What did you think of Kevin's performance? And the answer was, he played well, you know, he gets he gets a lot of our shots, and Doc gives them a green light. And, and you know, he can make some mistakes and still stay in the game. But he played well. That's what he said, what he really was said was this. If I got all those shots, if doc would just play me more minutes, if he wouldn't take me out, when I make mistakes, I could do the same thing Kevin Garnett could do. So that's why I always monitored newspaper articles. I monitored them, Doc never read them. Because he didn't want to know what people were saying he wanted to keep a clear mind. I wanted to read them because I wanted to know who I needed to talk to. So I had an interpret sometimes, okay, that's what he said. But I think this is what he really said, What did I do? Face to face? Why guess? Leadership by guessing doesn't work. And I haven't seen a book on that maybe one of you guys should write a book on leadership by guessing a leadership by hoping leadership by wishing it doesn't work.
Leadership by conversation, right? Leadership by relationships, leadership, by truth, at least it gives you a chance to know what might truly be going on with that player in that in that in with your team. So, you know, who was one of the most important guys in our organization with the Los Angeles Clippers? Was our equipment manager, our equipment manager, the guy who does the wash? How could he be that important? Because he was one of the best best relationship people in our organization. Guys would talk to him. We could find out some things that were going on through this equipment manager. A lot of people didn't see that. Why? Because a lot of people look and then they judge. Where is that person on the hierarchy? What is their title? How much power do they have, rather than not about titles, offices power, it's about impact, influence, inspiration. The three eyes I think of great leaders, great leaders impact people, they inspire people, right, and obviously, they have to influence as well. But in the books we only hear about influence. Those other two eyes are really important too. So I saw this in this guy, I knew how like, and then he would come up and give us some suggestions. When I was in the front office. I left the bench and went into the kind of the business side of the organization for a while and he would have some great suggestions. And as I really concentrated on who was coming in, you know, nobody saw this think you saw him as a guy clean the shorts. Right? So he here he we I saw the invisible and you know the best leaders have to go through their leadership day with big eyes, big ears and a small mouth. Big eyes, big ears and a small mouth. Look around observe what's going on. Listen, right? You may be in the coffee room, and there's a conversation going on where you might hear some stuff you need to hear. Because they might not even know that you're there. Right? So I always had my ears wide open my eyes wide open. And I tried to keep this shot, except when I needed to utilize it, right. So enough on that,[PB12]
Paul Barnett 50:23
given, you've been very generous with the time I just, perhaps just one last question if we could. Yep. And it's the legacy question. So you've had a great career, you've done College, you've done youth teams, you've been up to the NBA, you've spoken all over the world, and you've interacted with so many people, as you reflect back on this legacy of, of the people you've interacted with the people you've led? How do you hope that they describe it?
Kevin Eastman 50:53
Well, I know this about legacy. If that's your focal port point, each and every day, I'm not sure you actually have one. I think it's it's how you live, and the example you set, that's your legacy. But I guess I would say, if they had to say anything, it would be care for was there for and impacted me in a positive way, cared for us, was there for us, and impacted me or us in a positive way. And you never know, you know, a legacy is built drip, by slow drip, by slow drip. A legacy is built by one conversation at a time, not this huge deluge of things that happen. So and then I think, you know, the other thing about legacy, and I said it in a book, and you can, you can flip it either way you want, I'll let the listener figure out, which comes first, which comes second, but you know, do your part in your piece of the world. A legacy doesn't have to be something that is left so that in all the history books, your name is in there. There are some incredible legacies that have been left where no one will ever know about it. It could be a legacy in a family. It could be a legacy in a neighborhood, it could be a legacy in a certain part and portion of the of the world that really needs some help and some care and some time, right. So I think, lead a good life, do the right thing. And you'll have your best shot at leaving a legacy. That's[PB13]
Paul Barnett 52:51
a great place for us to finish. Kevin, I wanted to thank you for your time. I know that you've got a college football game to watch tonight. So we appreciate you squeezing as in. We look forward to sharing some of this some of these great ideas you've got around leadership, self leadership and teams with a wider audience.
Kevin Eastman 53:10
Well, Paul and Eric, thanks for having me on. First off, and maybe one day if ever I get back over there or pastoral core across face to face. Look
Paul Barnett 53:20
forward to it.
Kevin Eastman 53:22
Okay, get your coffee now.
Paul Barnett 53:24
Thanks, Kevin. Have a good one. See you guys.