Learning from Great Coaches
Mon, Apr 29, 2024 8:51PM • 1:03:41
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coach, great, john wooden, athletes, team, talk, class, wooden, feel, players, book, transformative, students, phil jackson, pyramid, pat, val, learning, educator, winning
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, David Turner, Valorie Kondos Field
Valorie Kondos Field 00:00
Thank you so much. This is so exciting. Dr. David, it's so nice to meet you finally have heard so much about you and listen to the podcast. So thank you for including me in this discussion. I have moved to Fayetteville, Arkansas. And a lot of people go when I say that, because I'm born and raised in California. But when I retired, my husband, I was like, let's just go see another part of the country. And we ended up in Fayetteville, Arkansas for a variety of reasons that I actually absolutely love it.
Paul Barnett 00:32
Well, we'll console all the way over to David, where are you today,
David Turner 00:38
I'm in the office at Aru Cambridge, England. So the people who run the university think that summer has started or spring started, but the radio and next to me is freezing cold. So my teeth are chattering here. But um, it's lovely to meet Miss Val. And I'm really looking forward to getting into a chat. And I'll just hold up a book, which I read at the weekend. Thank you not really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Paul Barnett 01:01
It's a terrific book. And of course, Miss Val, if, if anyone listening hasn't seen your amazing TED talk, I will be putting the link in the show notes. It's it's one of the better ones that I've seen, particularly, you know, when you're when you're talking to kids about winning, and of course, it's titled does winning matter. But again, I diverge. Let's talk about great coaches, which is something that you both have in, in in your hearts that I think in it front of mind for both of you when it comes to engaging with the many people that you cross paths with. And could I start by potentially just raising one of the greats. Miss Val, I know that you have this gentleman's couch, I believe. And that is of course, the great John Wooden. Okay.
Valorie Kondos Field 01:47
Yes, since you mentioned it. Hopefully. Here we go. This is my mother's pillow. This is the great John wooden's. That's not a very good shot sofa right there. That's that was in coach wooden's office, in his condo. And every time I might see it is across my desk. Every time I see it, I just think of the amazing humans, that not just athletes that sat on that couch, and I remember being in his den, and with Kareem Abdul Jabbar and with Bill Walton. And with you know, I could just go on and on and on naming all the people. But yes, thank you for bringing Coach Wooden up, I'm thrilled that people around the world know who coach wouldn't is and it is one of my charges to keep his legacy going. And his philosophies vibrant. As they are timeless.
Paul Barnett 02:49
I can see you've got his pyramid just behind you. Maybe I'll start by asking you about the pyramid. And if there's one element on that pyramid that connects with you more than any other?
Valorie Kondos Field 03:05
That's a That's a great question. The pyramid is comprised of 15 blocks. And it took him 15 years to bring this pyramid together. And a lot of people feel that he developed a pyramid of success because the top the top of the pyramid is competitive greatness. And so a lot of people think that he developed this pyramid to help his student athletes become great and reach competitive greatness. But actually he developed it for parents. Because when he got out of high school, he started coaching, and he was teaching and he was coaching young people as well. And the parents, as he used to chuckle and say, you know, a C grade was good enough for the neighbor's kids, but not for their kids. And so he wanted to help parents to find success. And he coined, I will paraphrase it because success is peace of mind. And knowing that you've done your best, that is simply all we need to strive for. When he does not focus on winning. Coach wouldn't never mentioned the word winning to his players. And I'm very close with quite a few of them. And I question this all the time is this lore, is this just something that's been passed down? And it's kind of been tweaked? But they say no, he never talked about when he talked, he would always say, if you give like an a game, his pregame speech would be something like if you give your best today, I'm sure that you will be happy with the results. And that was it. So getting back to your original question about blocks of the pyramid. The cornerstones are what always I always come back to industriousness and enthusiasm. And when I speak with kids, I always bring it down to effort and attitude. And in anything in life, if you just bring those two things in then the rest will happen you'll have, you will more than likely have a good outcome. Because when we get under stress, life gets overwhelming. And to think about all the other 13 blocks of this pyramid can be overwhelming. So to me, I go, Okay, let's bring it down to effort negative. industriousness, which is not just working hard, and stuff, seriousness is working smart with intention. That is the effort and enthusiasm. The other cornerstone, which is your attitude, bring enthusiasm to every single thing you do in life. Okay, I'm gonna name drop right now, where to pivot from coach, one second, I had a lovely, lovely one hour conversation with Kobe Bryant. And the majority of that hour, we talked about the importance of infusing joy into everything you do. And the difference between joy and fun, but his external bonus stuff that would just happens, and it's fine. Joy, is that sense of pride that you develop from bringing in seriousness and enthusiasm to everything you do. And as Kobe said, His joy came from getting up and working out at 430 in the morning, putting in two extra hours of workout before the team showed up. Because that was that sense of joy and pride that nobody could take away from him, regardless of what the score said that night. And that is the magic of the corners of the pyramid of success by coach win.
Paul Barnett 06:38
You know, that idea of joy. And learning being linked was so powerful when you said that in the interview we had with you that we use it in the introduction to the pod, the podcast that people will hear it in the opening, they'll hear you talk about it. But now that Dr. David, John Wooden has also connected with you on the other side of the ditch, I guess we could call it in a country where basketball is not even really a mainstream sport.
David Turner 07:07
Yeah. I mean, I started training or education in sports coaching around the turn of the century. And as I say, I knew I had to get up to speed with a theory. But I knew that theory was more accessible to our students, if I talked about human stories. So one of the first books I read was a book called Beyond winning by somebody called Gary Walton. You know, there's a great chapter on wooden in there. But it paints pictures of several coaches and who they were. So Miss val is absolutely right, obviously, that, you know, he didn't mention winning and 40 years of coaching. But he also rarely scattered the opposition as well. He was more concerned with making his team as good as they could be. Which seems weird to us now with all our performance analysis, etc. John Wooden has been an inspirational character, not just to myself, but to my students. I know several students who I would describe John Wooden as being their distance mentor, they've never met him, they're not going to meet him. But you know, he's, he's a significant influence on their life. I think the incredible thing about the great coaches or the legendary coaches is that they, they have a timeless quality beyond even being on this earth, Percy, Sarah, to the athletics coach to stretch now, Australian athletics coach, who's very eccentric, but every time I read about sorority before I'm going to talk about him, I ended up going for a run, because he just makes you want to run from somebody who's been dead for decades, you want to go out there and run in nature, because that's what he's related. And come back to when talking about the pyramid for a sec. And I'm sure this is picking up on something already in Michelle's book. But I'm gonna pick my part of the pyramid as the bit that's missing, the bit that he said he might have liked to put in there, which was Love, which was a segment between the blocks. You know what I think that's really important and comes through in Miss vows on coach development story. And then finally, I don't know if everybody knows where the pyramid of success came from. misspells obviously, right? He meant this to be for parents, right? But as I understand it, this was when John Wooden was a pupil himself in a one room schoolhouse in the Midwest, and his teacher sent them an essay or an assignment. And the assignment was, how do we define success? And the power of an educator, that person in that one room schoolhouse, has set this child on a journey who takes him into coaching, you'd say that he continues to think about what success is and to evolve that pyramid over decades, and then passes it on to players. It goes through to business, you know, the power of the ripples in the pond, if you'd like is incredible in that regard.
Valorie Kondos Field 09:47
I love the fact you brought up love because Coach Wooden he would he would his stance was always folded arms. I should have I should have worn his I had his sweater vest, he would fold his arms and he would, you know, look like this. And he would be so disillusioned that he did not put love as one of the blocks of the pyramid. So he felt the pyramid was incomplete. And I, in my boldness would always argue with the great John Wooden. And I say to him, no, no, if you had put love as a singular block in the pyramid, it would have diluted all the other blocks. Because in order for those blocks to come to fruition to really come alive, you have to infuse love into the process. And he would chuckle and go honey, and he went, he never agreed with me. And I but I do know Coach Wooden was stubborn. So maybe that was the reason he didn't agree with me.
Paul Barnett 10:53
So I misspelled your teaching at UCLA. I'm assuming the class is full of not sports people. It's a whole mixture of students coming in there from all different disciplines, whether it's business engineering, indeed, philosophy. What is it they take away from it? What do you think stays with them, at the end of the discussion about John Wood
Valorie Kondos Field 11:15
about coach that his his maniacal attention to detail is not something that has been embellished over the years, because with every one of my classes I teach, we study a different coach every week, and I have a guest come in that either played for that coach or coached with that coach. And so everyone that we have come in, that played for Coach Wooden says no, no, no, the freshman first thing that they had to do was learn how to put on their socks. And he would sit with them, and instruct them very meticulously, how to not have wrinkles in your socks, and then how to tie your shoes. And so the whole Rechnung wrinkles in the socks was so that you wouldn't get blisters. Because if you got blisters, you would be able to run as well and pivot as well on the court. And same with a shoe with the shoe came loose, you would not be as efficient on the court. And so those little that little attention to detail that he put into every single day is not something that has, as I said, has been embellished. The other thing that they come away with is he never varied from who he was his authentic self. He knew he was a Midwestern young man, from Martinsville, Indiana. He was a devout Christian, very strong faith. Regardless of where they were on the road, he would find a church to go to service Sunday mornings, he would invite anybody from the team at lunch join. He would have cards conversations with his student athletes about the importance of a belief in something. And it didn't have to be a Christian God, it could be whatever you wanted that to believe to be. But take time, in solitude and in stillness and figuring out what you truly, truly believe. And then make sure that your actions your integrity is in alignment with your actions, your actions are in alignment, excuse me, with that moral compass. And that those little attentions to details those.
That is the one commonality that I find in all great people have success, regardless of their coaches or the business world or wherever is, and this is the topic of my new book, sweat the small stuff, they sweat the small stuff, because everybody does the big stuff. everybody shows up, they warm up, they condition they do the drills and skills, they do all that it's the intention to the small stuff that separates you in an authentic way you can't the person we study after coach wouldn't his body night. And I don't know if your listeners You know, Bobby Knight was the head coach at Indiana basketball, volatile potty mouth, physically volatile. And however the sub commonalities are, the sweat the small stuff, the attention to details.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 14:19
I want to talk about this whole idea of emotional inconsistency, if I can, Dr. David because what I took out of John Wooden, he seemed to be well ahead of his time, in not being militaristic. If I'm getting that word, correct. He wasn't of the military. He wasn't, you know, drilling people. He wasn't barking orders. He was very much into this. He seemed to be into this empowerment, this this unleashing of energy, which is very different, I think from people like Bobby Knight, how did he How does he come across in England, when you've got this juxtaposition of these stoic football coaches, you know, Alex and Matt Busby and so forth and Alex In the world, are equally as famous on that side of the world.
David Turner 15:05
Yeah, I don't think John Wooden was any pushover. He was pretty strict, as far as I understand, you know, and he was pretty uncompromising. There's that moment when the players come in during the 60s with facial hair during preseason. And, you know, he basically says, Look, you know, the rule on facial hair, you know, can't play and, and the guy say, Well, look, it's our rights, you know, people are fighting for their rights and streets, etc. And I'm willing to Yeah, I really admire that stand up for your rights. And we're really going to miss you, you know, and it's that he was really uncompromising. He lived his life by a certain point crit, that legendarily, his father had given to him but actually his father took it from somewhere else, but it doesn't matter. It's still a guide that he followed. I don't think he strayed very far from that creed. And what's remarkable for me is that to use vows lovely term, he was his authentic self, despite all of that period of change, Vietnam War, counterculture, etc. You know, obviously, he bent, everybody has to bend in the wind, like a straw tree. But he stuck with those seven points of that creed. So I think he was pretty much a disciplinarian. But the difference between him and the traditional post war coach, and you got to remember that people after the war expected to be boosted by the way they expected a military approach in, in coaching. But I think the multi dimensionality that John wooden's got is because he was essentially a teacher in an interview with Tony Robbins, he said, The coach is just a teacher. Now, I couldn't disagree with him more. I think they're similar, but they're slightly different. But he was coming from an educators perspective. And that's a very different place from coming from a dictators perspective.
Valorie Kondos Field 16:43
You know, you're, you're exactly right. And something that as you're talking about, you know, he would send the athletes home to go get their hair cut, Bill Walton, the famous story about Bill Walton and all that. But he was an educator, he didn't say it was because I didn't like it. Or it didn't look good. It wasn't our brand. They didn't use the word brand vector. But he explained that the longer your hair is, the more opportunity you have for sweat to get in your eye. He explained that during the 60s, it's not okay, Bill Walton to go lay down on Wilshire Boulevard in protest in front of the federal building, not because it didn't look poorly on the men's basketball team, but because he would say what if an ambulance had to get through that was taking a life to the UCLA Medical Center, and they couldn't get through because you're laying down in the middle of Wilshire Boulevard. So it was Dr. David Exactly. That point I think is really important because he didn't coach from his ego. He coached from a place of an educator. Yeah.
David Turner 17:46
And he comes from his heart, you know, when we talk about these values, is is Midwestern old fashioned values that he brought into the modern world and transformed coaching. You know, and a lot of people look back on him very fondly, you know, whereas I'm sure some people have been pasted by by Bobby might Bobby Knight might not. You know, it is that educator bit. He's he was a master educator. We talked about the term pedagogy these days coaching pedagogy. He's the father of coaching pedagogy, you know, that simple phrases like you haven't taught until they've learned, you know, are really important that I still use with people now want to go into physical education teaching. He's really I think he's most cutting edge area is his use of education or pedagogy.
Valorie Kondos Field 18:35
I would, can I throw out a question. I would be interested in both of your responses to this. In our class, obviously, we can't study everybody who's great. So I take I take the coaches that are the student athlete, well, excuse me, the students in our class kind of know the most or they hear about the most. So we studied Coach Wooden Bobby Knight, Phil Jackson, because he was a great educator as well. We studied Pat Summitt, we study Pete Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, and a few others, and towards the end of the semester, I put up on the board all of these coaches names and I asked who would you want to play for our coach with and shockingly, very, very, very few of them, say Coach Wooden and the the far majority say, Pete Carroll because he brings a sense of fun to his practices every single day. His his motto of when forever and when Every day is his he's competing every moment of every day. And that brings a sense of fun. And I don't know. i My question to you is, do you feel that that would have produced the same results 20 years ago, 30 years ago, with it with the students have responded the same way or would they have wanted a less fun, more stern, dogmatic, dictatorial style? Yes, Dr. David,
David Turner 20:30
I would say that society has moved on, I would say that a democratic coach with a democratic style, and even a collaborative style is more in fashion now than they were ever before. If I think about association football, which is our national sport, it's changed a lot. There are no dictatorial coaches in the in the style of George Graham or Sir Alex Ferguson at the top level, because the players have a lot of power, you are sharing power. You are, if you're Pep Guardiola, you're persuading a bunch of potential mercenaries to take on a project that's bigger than themselves. And that is a very different call from the style that would have been asked before that I do exactly the same exercise mitzva was you profile coaches? And so who would you like to play for? On if I put them autocratic to democratic Who are they? And I get a range of answers. But we, although society, I was gonna make the point that although society has changed, and I think there will have been more of a fashionable style now. And we see that in the direction of travel, right, we see that in the direction of travel of your own story, we said that in the travel of Pat Summitt, who'd be very much like yourself, didn't have anything to go on. So she copied the dictatorial people around her initially, and then became a much more athlete need centered coach as she went on. But my point is, even within that, we can't take averages of meaning and everything. Some people, some people like to pay for these bootcamp classes, where if you put your hands on your hips, you do 20 Press ups, right. So, so there's always going to be the individual preferences within that. But I think the shift has been towards more democratic, more collaborative coaching styles. That's,
Paul Barnett 22:10
I find it fascinating, and I know how to have to answer otherwise, I'll get in trouble from this. Well, I probably would have said, John Wooden, but I would have said it. And I would have said it as a person who is interested in leadership. If if you'd asked me as an athlete, I, I think pet summit would unlock your potential. I think I'm going to ask you about pet summit later this interview because I'm fascinated by or have been reading a lot about it at the minute and I want to get your view, I think she can unlock potential individuals. And I think Phil Jackson unlocks potential in teams. But if I was sitting in your class, I would be interested in in the leadership aspect of this. And from that point alone, I find John Wooden, absolutely fascinating. I thought he was an Why do I find him fascinating. He was just so far ahead of the curve. What he talked about 15 years ago, is now the norm. And will be I think, for the foreseeable future. I'm sure it will change again. And I'm I know that Pete Carroll talks very deeply about values and being very values inspiring or blocking energy and others. And I think that will continue to be important, but for me, it would be definitely Mr. Mr. Wooden it would be if I could have you know, that famous question. If I could have one of them at the dinner table. I'd probably probably would like him there. But Miss Val, can I talk to you about Pat Summitt? I, I am fascinated because I'm the father of two girls, two daughters, 17 and 14. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I would have put him in her program. I have to be honest. But I did. I think she the early. The early part was just she was just too demanding. I don't know if my daughter and my daughters are very, you know, they're very strong, very independent, wonderful young women. I just don't know if I'd want them being whipped, or corralled or cajoled. Or as she says in the book, emotionally manipulated. And she openly says that in the book in a couple of ebooks. I'm not sure I would want that. But, but the way she talks about managing, managing up, she has this great phrase she uses in the book, she says, don't cut what you can untie. And I thought, gosh, you know, from a stakeholder management point of view, and from a leadership point of view, I find that absolutely fascinating. But for me, she's a bit of a conundrum. And I know both of you have studied her and I'd, I'd love to get your impressions. Potentially, you know, Miss Val. If I could, could ask you first how her you engage with her today?
Valorie Kondos Field 25:05
Yeah, I never met coach Summit. I have. I'm close friends with some people who played for her. And I know, you know, Sue Enquist, so it was new at Summit very well, that you interesting part of the dialogue with these people is the same that I hear from players that played for Bobby Knight. And that was the sense of trust and relationship that they had with her prior to starting a freshman year at stern in the recruiting process, and that the athletes that came and I and I need to qualify this or by saying, quantify whatever the word is correct term is. It's not a one size fits all. And there are certainly athletes that were emotionally damaged from playing for both of them. And for other coaches, as well. However, the people that I've spoken with that played for pet Summit, Bobby PESA, was nowhere near as volatile level as Bobby Knight was, but truly that dictatorial style of my way or the highway. The reason why they not just endured it, but thrived in that environment, because there was this deep sense of trust in the relationship that their coach only wanted them to get better. And they understood that the concept of iron sharpening iron was very strong, if you wanted to achieve just greatness, okay, the iron sharpening iron had to be of this pattern, if you wanted to achieve excellence, sustained excellence, that iron sharpening iron could never let up. It had to be aggressive. And there was no margin for mediocrity in anything. It's interesting, because I had just this last quarter, we were talking about trust, and is trust earned or is trust given. And every student in the class said, Trust is earned, you have to earn the trust. And so I challenged them on that. But that morphed into a discussion of the fact that every single student in our class, and we had 27 students, 24 of them were fifth year student athletes, or coaches, every single one of them said the pendulum has swung too far. And that they want more accountability, they want to know the standards, they want the standards to be very, very clear. And they want the accountability to those standards to be very clear, and they want the coach to hold them themselves accountable to those very, very high standards. And they feel that as as Dr. David was saying, this democratic way of coaching that pendulum has an I believe it has swung too far.
David Turner 28:15
I wouldn't disagree with that. I think if we think about Pat Summitt, she started off very strict, but she was a lot more loving and athlete need driven at the end, and she was at the start. And I don't think that has to do with player power in her instance, that has to do with her changing. You know, she had a very tough dad. I know Miss value said you've had a tough day, it was quite disparate. She had a very tough dad who will make it work in the fields. When it was a 16th birthday. She couldn't go to her own birthday party. But, you know, she had a team at one point, I won't remember the actual year, but she had a team that but halfway through her career, I think it was at University of Tennessee. And she realized they were all very talented, but they were mostly from broken homes. And she decided that she had to change your approach slightly. And she sat down for one of our famous one to one meetings with a player and they went through all the stats, and they went through all the figures and and Pat says that a player will look Is there anything else you need from me? And the player said, Yes, I'd like a hug. And you can imagine the moment and pasting it. Okay, then, and gave her a hug, you know, but you know, there was that moment with that team transform Pat. And, you know, we're talking about great coaches, and I started writing down last night in front of the telly like what do I think great coaches are, and one of the words is transformative. But when I think about transformation with great coaches, it's not just about them, transforming people. It's about coaching, transforming them, and sometimes teams and players transforming them. So it's a two word transformation for me.
Valorie Kondos Field 29:50
I 100% agree with you. I'm so glad you brought that word up because that's a buzzword these days transactional versus transformational, and are transformative and All the students will ask our guest, as in my pet Summit, would she have been successful today? And a guest says Absolutely. Because she would have transformed she was a transformative coach, she would have figured it out how to work with nio how to work and transfer portal how to work with being a little bit more explaining her wise. For her rules a little bit more the same with Coach wouldn't you know, people say, I mean, ever since he died, they've said he would not be successful today. Yes, he would have because he was a transformative coach. And as you said, it's not him, them transforming the student athletes. They, the transformation starts from with You from within.
David Turner 30:46
Yeah, you know what I'd like to really do. So you're a quick whistlestop tour of this back of a fag packet as I get a list of the kind of qualities of legendary coaches that I wrote down, because they're all connected and the things you say, connecting with it. So I've got transformational there. I've also got the word unfinished, because I don't think any great cultural legendary coach that I know considers themselves to be the finished product. And as soon as they did, they'd be falling away. colleague of mine the other day talked about coaches as being like sharks, if they don't swim forwards, they sink. So I also think there's the humility there. Because if you can say to yourself, I'm finished, you've got the humility to, to continue learning. I'm going to challenge you, Paul, who said this, quote, humility is the seed of continued excellence, which great coach,
Paul Barnett 31:35
gosh, I'm sorry, I don't know. I feel like I shouldn't. It wasn't Lombardi I can tell you that who wasn't it? Well.
David Turner 31:42
It's the person who described to me as the Australian John Wooden is Ric Charlesworth. But I think that's a really good quote, the humility, the seed of continued excellence because you keep working if you've got humidity keep you keep learning. Now, I know when I've read misspells book that she's, she's a voracious she described herself as a voracious reader.
Well, what there's very few qualities that we can say that great coaches are legendary coaches are going common, but I'll tell you one of them. They've all got extensive personal libraries. Some of them might be books, some of them might be videos, but you go in their house, there'll be loads of it. So I've gone transformational unfinished humanity, I've got adaptable, because great coaches and legendary coaches are master problem solvers, and engage enthusiastically and problem solving as well. And I think adaptability is the greatest quality that coaches need. Finally committed. If there's one thing we know about expert coach, I don't believe in expert coaches, I believe some coaches have expertise. But there's one thing we know about them, that we know that they have a dedication, drive and passion that's often obsessive about keeping getting better. You know, they're constant learners, they model lifelong learning. [PB2]
I think there's a great, let's keep going back to John Wooden, I think John Wooden said that he learned a lot from every season, he coached less from some of the seasons at the end, but he was still learning. You know, so it's really important to, to model and believe in that lifelong learning. So I've gone transformation, one finished humility, adaptable, committed now might be some things I'm missing out there, but they seem to capture a lot about legendary coaches for million. I'd be interested to see if Miss Val and yourself Paul agree with some of those.
Valorie Kondos Field 33:26
I think that one thing that you just modeled for all of us is there's another similarity amongst great people, not just great coaches, and that is to be impeccable with words because you said expert coaches, and then you corrected yourself when I say I don't believe in expert coaches, I believe in expertise. And that little subtle difference has a massive different connotation. And anybody who knows John Wooden knows that his favorite American was Abraham Lincoln, who was a master Edwards and a wordsmith. So if you want to learn about coaching, when you really read, you really need to read Abraham Lincoln.
David Turner 34:10
Don't misspell My favorite quote from Abraham Lincoln. I probably get it wrong, but I use it in education a lot, is the worst thing you can do for someone you love is what they should and could do for themselves. Yeah, yeah.
That brings us to the aspect of coaching whereby we're trying to develop more than just athletes but self reliant adults, we're trying to empower self reliant people. And someone like James doc councilman, one of the greatest swimming coaches of all time. He was Spitz's coach. He was proud of the fact that his athletes set as many records in his absence as they were in his presence, you know, and that's part of the Self Reliance piece.[PB3]
Valorie Kondos Field 34:50
I just want to bring up a little sidebar here. So many people are overly concerned with plagiarism and now Have a i and all of that which I agree with, we need, we need critical thinking of our own. But he brought up the quote that from Abraham Lincoln, the worst thing someone can do for them is to do something that they can do for by themselves. The worst thing a parent can do for a child is something that they shouldn't can do for themselves. And Coach wouldn't used to say that all the time. And there are so many Maxim's that we attribute to Coach Wooden that actually came from President Lincoln. And when I bring that up in class, a lot of times the kids will kind of help. You know, well, coach when stole that, and I was like, no, no, no, that's that. Let's get away from that. Let's understand that anything that is of truth. Anything that is truthful, is going to stand the test of time, and it has been passed down since the dawn of man. So what we do is we take people within our own generations to put a little bit different verbiage to it, to be able to make relatable for us. But if it is truthful, it has been repeated. And a lot of this is Coach when resumes are have been repeated from the Bible. Okay, but that doesn't dilute the message. And so when you can give a citation to someone who sent it, great, do that. But don't miss the message. And don't miss sharing that message. Because you don't remember who said.
David Turner 36:27
Yeah, I'd agree. I mean, there are some issues in when you become so iconic as someone like John Wooden, you become your own legend in a way. And you know, the story about Dad passing him the seven points and the Creed is slightly overblown. But your point is that, you know, we can't let that obscure the truth. I mean, John, John wooden's book, a lifetime of observation is on and off the call is one of my top 10 coaching books ever. In fact, it doesn't even stay in coaching. It can go beyond that. There's so much wisdom in that book. And it's so digestible. I mean, I remember reading it on a luxury cruise through Terranea and sitting on deck, you know, isn't that sort of read, but it's that sort of wisdom as well. And the accessible wisdom that that wouldn't had is really impressive. It's a true comparison, but he's the Yoda of sports coaching for me.
Paul Barnett 37:21
On Yoda, I think I should jump in there, I want to just comment on the list you put together. And I want to bring a different perspective. So I am learning from legendary coaches as a business person. You know, I think that my, the story that led to this podcast was you know, as CEO running breweries in Europe, and I wanted to talk to leaders who I thought was the best in the business when it came to influencing people. So that thrived, and they were sports coaches. And so when I listened to you play back, unfinished, transformative, humility, learning, adaptable, obsessive. These are not necessarily leadership traits of CEOs that I have experienced, which is why I think there's so much rich learning that is applicable in other areas. I mean, the whole idea of care and love, when it comes to great coaches, they talk about that openly. They are not afraid to embrace their players to I'm talking to a football coach in a couple of weeks that kisses his players before they run an American football coach, before they run out on the field. This kind of intimacy is not present in the workplace. And yet, we can still learn the value of care. And I think, bring that into the workplace and unlock more energy and motivation. So I think the lessons are very palpable, and very real for all of us whether we're sitting on the deck of a cruise ship in the Mediterranean, or whether we're sitting in an office, deep dark in the corners of Melbourne at 1130. At night on a on a Tuesday. Miss Val, can I can I move this forward? If I could? Could I take us to Bill Jackson? Because as a I haven't, I've read the books. I'm not a huge basketball fan. But what comes to mind is just his ability to build teams. Now I'm wondering what lessons that you tease out in the course, that are applicable to your students.
Valorie Kondos Field 39:23
I feel that one of the things that I get when I read about Phil Jackson, again, speak with his players. And as the sports psychologist that worked with him, is that this idea of not idea but this transformative ability to to transform the relationship that he had with his student out hit with his athletes that came from a place of love. And because he got to know his athletes individually, and one of the things that I think was just so obvious no obvious, whatever the word is, that I'm trying to find is that a lot of coaches, a lot of CEOs will find the book for this quarter that we're all gonna read, and we're all gonna study and it's gonna be great. And I think that's wonderful, you know, that sort of, we're all on the same page, we have a commonality what we're learning, but he would give a different book to each player that he felt would resonate best with them. So when you're looking at about someone like Michael Jordan versus Dennis Rodman, two very, very, very different people, that you're trying to get on the same page to accomplish a single, a goal, a common goal. And I just imagined being a player and having a coach that invested in me to learn about who I am and what would resonate best with me. That connection is the connection, those little micro connections, I feel it was part of his his genius, that micro connections with his athletes, was part of his his his genius. And as we're saying, this consistency, his authenticity, you know, what he went through in sharing what he went through growing up in a Christian household and sharing what he learned from the vocoder Indians and share in bringing all that meditation and why not just saying we're going to do this, because this is going to make us great, but explaining the why behind it all, that's where you get the buy in, is by making it not a rule, but making an agreement. That this is, this is the why and we all agree to the importance of this. But I I just feel what you said, the power of relationships and love cannot be diluted than it is, again, a truth that has been passed down since the dawn of man. And that's why Coach Wooden, felt badly not putting love and use pyramid. But she was wrong. Coach Wooden was wrong. Because it's the mortar for all of it, coach.
Paul Barnett 42:06
I've just heard so many people I've interviewed talk about it. And the the first couple of times I heard it, I was like, Okay, that's interesting. And then I'll probably heard it 50 times. And, you know, I think if we interviewed 50 CEOs, that that it's not, it's not in the list, it's not
Valorie Kondos Field 42:25
on the list, I just want to share something personally, people have asked me about my career, I've been retired now four years or so. And I'm looking back on my career not just as a head coach, but I was there for eight years as an assistant coach. So 37 years. The athletes that to this day, I do not have a good relationship with are the ones that I never developed a relationship with. And it doesn't have to be a relationship where you're going to lunch or going to coffee and doing all this. It's simply about showing them that I care those micro moments of care and love and showing up during, you know, before practice starts and saying how are you doing? Like not? How's your gymnastics going? How are you doing? Not how school? How are you? That's a very powerful question to ask someone whose identity is placed on how many points they score. Because every time I would ask the student athlete, especially a freshman, sophomore, how are you doing today? They go Oh, and they were they would respond with how workout went or how school is going. And I would say we can talk about gym or school if you want. But I asked you about you and they would be a bit catatonic at the moment. They're like, cares about me as a person. And so if I have any regrets, it's that I didn't take those micro moments that I had with those athletes to develop a better connected, trusting relationship. And not that it would have turned out to lie. Yeah, we may have had the same results. But I could have done something a little different in those moments. Right. I've
Paul Barnett 44:02
heard many people I interview described that as an again, a phrase I'd never heard meeting people where they are. I had never heard that phrase. I didn't know what that phrase meant. And I've heard it quite a number of times. And it is a very, I've tested it in my life. And it is a very powerful way I think with engaging people beyond their ability to just produce a service or deliver deliver their role. I think it's a very powerful idea. And I think it comes through with a lot of coaches in all elite levels. So I think they are able to unlock that and do that in a very authentic way. And you know, Dr. David, I think I don't, I think so I've just finished reading some at Busbys books from the 50s. They're ones that he wrote himself. And he actually talks about that, you know, he wants football as he wants to know them as if they are part of his family and he uses this type of language And I read about it and I look at where teams like men United are today. And I just wondered, they've just got so far away from from the pioneers to build this club, you know, the the essence of where they were and what made them great. And they don't have to look very far. Right. I think you've got Thomas Frank, and I think you've got, you've got pep who are really leading, leading the chain, of course, we've got Mr. Clark as well. But how do you how do you think this idea of Phil Jackson and micro connections connects with with people that you you talk to it at Cambridge?
David Turner 45:35
Yeah, I didn't talk to anybody here about Phil Jackson. But I've done presentations about him in the past, and I've read a lot about him, I would completely concur with Miss Val about the fact that he reinforced and explored connections, the books that he gave people is a great example about that. He grew up as a Christian, he grew up he wasn't allowed to go to the movies until he was very old, that he used the movies a lot used to splice movies in. So he once showed the team a clip, and spliced in The Wizard of Oz to show that they didn't have any brains, any heart on any, any courage, that sort of thing. But you know, it, I'm not using that as a great example. But it's like the way that he would try to connect with people through different mediums. And through the influences of Lakota Sioux through Buddhist influences. You know, some people said, they just went along for the ride to police, the coach, but some people engage with it. But it doesn't matter if the coach is using tools that are authentic to who they are, and where they're coming from, I believe in it matters if they're leaving that that path. I mean, I think, yes, he's a master of developing teams. But he's famous phrase that I really liked. His selflessness is the soul of teamwork. You know, giving yourself over to the team in the way that he persuaded Jordan to, so that the little saplings can grow with a big tree didn't let any light in before it is his most masterful achievement. You know, and people always say, with coaches, you know, I didn't do it without superstar without Kobe and Shaq, Li, etc, that Jordan and others with the balls, but you know, those players didn't win many rings without him either. Loving Jordan won any rings without him? So it's a synergy between the two. It definitely made deep connections. It was definitely because we looked into it. But it was also because he was an unorthodox approach, use different approaches that were refreshing, innovative cutting edge, and, you know, took them places that other teams weren't, you know, how do you play against a tactical system that has no set place where that the team acted intuitively, because they know each other well, and they're connected within a framework that helps them to become connected. And that was the triangle offense that worked so well for
Valorie Kondos Field 47:53
you know, what you just said is what we started with Coach wooden's definition of success and the fact that he never spoke about winning. And, you know, when you say that people said, Phil Jackson one because he had all these superstars, well, that's winning, he would have had just as much success, regardless of where he coached, because he would have taken this these group of people, and he would have galvanized them into becoming a true team, selfless team. And they would have had success based on their definition of success. And I, I know, I, I know, I'm sitting here today, because I've won seven national championships. And I know that I would have never won them seven national championships, and I not been in a school like UCLA that can recruit talent, Coach Wooden always used to say you can't win without talent. But that doesn't mean I would have changed how I coach. And that would not have changed the impact that my coaching style had on the student athletes that were under my care. So I could have, I could have enjoyed the same level of success. Success is what lasts beyond the win, I would have enjoyed the same level of success, regardless of not winning any rings.
David Turner 49:03
Yeah, that's about having strong personal beliefs and values and knowing who you are. And what's important to you. The problem we've got with a lot of people is they don't want to explore who they are, because they don't even do that in their real life, let alone their vocational life as a coach. So you get a lot of people walking around with masks on or walking around as a to do. And there's not one of the greatest qualities of expert coaches, coaches who have expertise I said, again, is introspection in a deep looking within Who am I what are my values? Does this match my values? Am I a good fit here? To what extent can I bend? But that's a lot of self knowledge. And a lot of people these days, haven't got much self knowledge and some are actually averse to engaging with it. And
Valorie Kondos Field 49:49
I would I would tag on to that, that this is one of the biggest reasons because we don't allow still Unless we don't invite stillness in our life, we don't invite that introspection. Introspection can't come from here. Like people say, Oh, I go for a walk all the time. What do you do? I listen podcast. That's great. Love podcasts. We're doing a podcast right now. But at what point in your day? Do you schedule in stillness to be able to have introspection and self awareness?
David Turner 50:23
Michelle, were you talking about? You know, he said, the psychologist with Phil Jackson. Were you talking about George Mumford? Are you talking about someone else?
Valorie Kondos Field 50:30
I was talking about towards Mumford. Yes. I guess when I said it, yeah. Yeah.
David Turner 50:34
Okay. He just reminded me, I arranged a mindfulness session for some of my students once. And we were going into the room and these two students were looking very uncomfortable. And I said, What are you okay? And they said, Well, you know, in our tradition, they said, We're told that if you empty your mind devils going, so, so that means they've got to live the rest of their life with their mind fall with something. Yeah, really strike. But yeah, okay. But I agree. I mean, I'm gonna come from the education point of view, I think mobile phones should be banned from even higher education classrooms, let alone schools where the debate is at the moment that not only are they a complete distraction, they're also an addiction. And I don't want people feeding an addiction during during a lecture and it's not going to help them with their education. I know there's the argument, we could get them out and use them for a quiz or whatever. But come on, let's go old school, we can do old school versions of quizzes. We don't need the phones for that they are more harmful than good. And there's an interesting debate at the moment. You know, they're saying, what's the evidence, you know, that they're harmful? Well, what what's the evidence that they're good we, you know, and I find, learners are not as deeply engaged as they were in the past at my level, which is really sad, but not as many. Anyway, we're probably going down a rabbit hole that
Paul Barnett 51:53
we are going down a bit of a rabbit hole. And I remember at the start of this, I thought we'd only go for 30 minutes, and we're clocking in at that hour. So I'm going to ask one final question to both of you. And what I would like to ask is the Senate and I think you've already covered a little bit in this discussion, but I'd really like to know, I put you on the spot. And I asked you, what's one change you've made in your life, your approach to teaching your approach to coaching based on these classes that you've both been delivery? What would it be?
Valorie Kondos Field 52:26
Hmm. You gotta talk for days.
David Turner 52:31
I have yet yet. This was a really subtle change. And you talked about language use of language earlier. And for a long time, in my educational career, my coaching career, I used to think that coaching was helping people to be the best they could be. And then it struck me quite firmly between the eyes that it was helping people to help themselves to be the best that they could be. That's a subtle, but very powerful difference. It's not my achievement. It's their achievement. You know, we've talked about this in the past, Paul, I'm a Sherpa, you know, they're climbing the mountain and on the Sherpa. And that's a really different place from when I started out, I'm going back to Pat Summitt, Pat said that when she started coaching, she was trying to produce a row of little pat Ling's think, who felt like Pat acted like, you were a model of Pat. And then she realized that she didn't need to do that she needed to help them to become themselves. And that's the difference between helping people to be the best they can be, and helping them to help themselves to be the best. And
Valorie Kondos Field 53:33
I love the fact that you pat yourself on your vocabulary on your choice of words. I think that's so so important. And in talk about being introspective and knowing who you are. When you said that, I think about something that i i probably on a daily basis, correct myself with.
I don't believe in telling someone I'm so proud of you. Because then places that that then it places their onus on trying to please me. And so I've changed my Burbidge to say you should you should be so proud of yourself. Yeah, very good. So I think that's subtle, like you said, like what you just shared? But getting back to Paul's question, the one the thing that first came to mind when you ask that question, I haven't been asked that question before. So I'd love it when I'm asking questions makes me think is I get extremely excited to be back in a classroom to be in a teaching environment. Special, especially these two graduate students, so like they're choosing to be there and they're most of them are paying for their own schooling. They also they're choosing the so it's a really vibrant environment. And there's so much that I want to share with them that is like I don't have enough time during the day during my class. And so something that I have made a habit of and it's become a part of, of how I go about my day is before To enter the class, I will take some time and stillness. And I will just pray I do have a strong faith. But I would just pray that Can I please help me not make this about me, but about me sharing the things that I've learned The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly, to allow them to digest this and trim and transform this as to how it relates to them in their position in life right now with their relationships in life. And I did that before the podcast, I do that before I speak, I do that all the time to just not get out of my little tunnel vision of me wanting to share on level stories, and make them transformative. Hopefully, there will be one little glimmer in my three hour class on Mondays, that will make them go hmm. And that is the righteous receipt i Our class has been over for over a month now. And I just received a note yesterday from one of students in the class, sharing a handwritten note because that's I think that's why the importance of handwritten notes. And just sharing that it wasn't what he learned about other coaches, that was the magic of the class. The transformative part of the class wasn't really learning about John Wooden, Phil Jackson, all these people. That transformative part was the discussions we had during the class of how they personally related to it, and why they connected or didn't connect with it.
David Turner 56:34
Yeah, it's just a vehicle for development. Right. It's like you said in your book, that sport is the perfect testing ground for helping resilience and life skills. And, you know, I might tell the stories of expert coaches, sorry, legendary coaches. But really, truly, I'm just using that as a vehicle to help provoke thought about coaching. And to provoke thought about life. I just want to set up the things that is interesting, you said about your preparation routine. So I think I'd do the same. But I do it to try and get out of my own way. So you know, like the inner game of tennis type message, I'm trying to make sure that I'm settling myself so that I'm not getting in my own way when I'm trying to help other people, because I want to be as effective with that as I can. But having said that, I don't over wrap my students in cotton wool. And one of the things I would say is I do as little as possible for my students, so they can do as much as possible for themselves. Some of my colleagues and they think have done something nasty. But ya know,
Valorie Kondos Field 57:34
I love that. Yeah. I love that. Allow them that space to not have to be right. Yeah, that's you don't have to be right. You know, let's just have a dialogue. Let's have, this is something that in our Okay, Paul's like, we need to wrap this up. Okay. This is something that I really, like, this is my next push of what I want to get through with any corporation, I'm speaking with any class, whatever, I understand the importance of a psycho psychological safe space, I understand that.
I believe that we need to develop that psychological safe space. And when we need to evolve to a strength space, where that person sits in their conviction, and is able to share what their feelings are, at the same time being able to receive a counter argument or counter discussion about it, and not take offense and not put a wall up and not feel that they're being demeaned and that they're not being heard or seen. You can still be heard and seen, even if someone disagrees with you. And I feel that we need to model those spaces now. Because a safe space, there's no growth.[PB4]
David Turner 58:52
Yeah, comfort zone, nothing grows there. Right? Well,
Valorie Kondos Field 58:57
this gets uncomfortable, where we grow.
Paul Barnett 59:00
This gets back to something that I fundamentally believe. And I'll ask you both, it's but what is the role of a great coach? What do you think their role is?
David Turner 59:12
I was thinking about this. And I think I think it's to enable people to go beyond expectations. And again, Richard Smith talks about this, he talks about none of the athletes ever had realized how good they could be. And you know, his role is to help them raise the bar, he would say, I'm still trying to write that article about him. That's the top so so he, it's that helping people to go beyond where they thought they could be a lovely email from somebody today just finish their thesis and I haven't marked it yet. That's probably why they sent me a lovely email. But they're saying, you know, couldn't have done it without you. And my first impression was to go back now you could have done it without me but for now, I'll shelve that. But it's really nice that people feel that you've added value on that journey. And that I think, is the role of the great coach or the great educator, and we help people to get somewhere they might not have got additional support, and to get somewhere that might not have envisaged
Paul Barnett 1:00:04
Miss Val
Valorie Kondos Field 1:00:06
100%. Agree,
I say all the time, the only reason someone needs a coach in their life is to help them achieve something that they are getting stuck on. And they can't. Either they can't achieve it on their own, or they can't even see the possibility on their own. And that was something that I feel I did very well, coming from the world of performance art and ballet into the world of gymnastics, is helping these athletes realize that they're not just great flippers and twisters. They're also great motors and performers, and the joy that comes from performance. That was my gift to the world of gymnastics. And that was something that they could not even envisioned on their own. And so a great coach. So you, a coach is someone who helps you see things that you wouldn't have been able to see on your own and achieve those things. [PB5]
That's why getting back to the importance of discussing all that discussing how we're going to get there. What are those standards that we're going to be non negotiable on, and getting the athlete to agree to those. And then my greatest gift to you who said this, it may have been pet some it may have been shared back, a softball coach said the greatest respect I can give to you is to help your son help you hold yourself accountable to those standards. And I may not be liked in those moments, but that's okay. That's my That's how much I respect you.
Paul Barnett 1:01:39
I think we're all in agreement, I would just shorten it to their role is to challenge you. And it's in this area that I think great leaders in any aspect of society. I think that's a thing they have in common. And I think we're heading to a place to your point this fell around. Yeah, it's a safe space, but I am going to push it, I am going to make you feel uncomfortable. I think we're getting to a place where that's probably going to have to be written into the agreement. When someone joins a team, come into this team, you're going to be challenged, it's going to feel uncomfortable, but uncomfort discomfort means growth. And I think that's something that's potentially lost on people these days. I'm sounding like a crusty old man here. I better head over to Dr. David, and then we should potentially wrap it up.
David Turner 1:02:23
Yeah, sure. I'll just going to reinforce where my students first come on the degree course. So if you don't get confused at some point in this course, do come and ask me for your money back. Because we're not doing our job properly.
Valorie Kondos Field 1:02:34
Right. Yeah.
David Turner 1:02:36
So in terms of wrapping things up in really nice talking to you both about something I'm passionate about how could it not be nice, absolutely
Paul Barnett 1:02:44
amazing. To get you both on a call tonight. I've been so looking forward to it. And it exceeded expectations. From my point of view, I would love to get you back on it. I would love to get into Pete Carroll. I would love to talk to you both about Vince Lombardi and potentially to bring in maybe some of the modern coaches who are in that space as well. I would love to get potentially a view on I don't know Miss Val whether you've extended into any European coaches, but there's been a couple over there that I think would be of great interest and I'm thinking about Pep Guardiola or or sir Matt Busby or someone like that as well.
Valorie Kondos Field 1:03:23
Yes, I wrote their names down because those were those are my next books. Thank you.
Paul Barnett 1:03:30
Thank you both for your time tonight. I wish you all the best for the week ahead.
Valorie Kondos Field 1:03:34
Thank you both. This has been so what a great game way to start my day to am over here. I love it.