Lisa edit
Wed, Jul 17, 2024 7:03AM • 37:31
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, netball, coaching, interview, team, people, lisa, sport, talked, decision, tracy, athletes, day, board, court, lives, ceo, understand, leaders, part
SPEAKERS
Lisa Alexander, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:04
Lisa Alexander, good afternoon, and welcome back to the great coaches podcast. G'day,
Lisa Alexander 00:10
Paul, it's great to be with you again and to be asked back on your very famous podcast.
Paul Barnett 00:16
I don't know about very famous, Lisa, but you are. You are one of our biggest supporters, and I can't thank you and enough for the support you've given us the last four years.
Lisa Alexander 00:26
Well, thank you. And I think it's good because we're talking about coaching and coaches. And you know, I love talking coaching and showing the world. You know what a great bunch of people we are, really.
Paul Barnett 00:38
Well, let's start there. Lisa, I've I follow your social media feed. It's always provocative and has something interesting. But most recently, you've done a series of interviews with great coaches on the new site, code sports. Fascinating listening. I was we're going to get to some of the ins and outs of those conversations through this interview, but something easy to start with. Can you tell us what surprised you most in these conversations you've had?
Lisa Alexander 01:11
It's a really good question. I guess what surprised me most was the fact that the once I had the coaches comfortable in the fact that we I gave them the questions beforehand, and that's always a bit of a thing, particularly netball. But none of the coaches asked for any of them to be changed, and they're all really keen to share their backstory. I think what, what makes them tick, and also their coaching philosophy, but also particularly in netball, what they do outside of their coaching and how their lives are. You know, rich and full families, all of those things, their journeys that they've had. So I think the off court part was, it was terrific, and I felt very grateful that the coaches did illuminate that for the listeners, and I got some smiles and some laughs out of them. That's always good.
Paul Barnett 02:07
Were you surprised by how balanced and dare I say it, normal, the lives of some of these coaches seemed relative to, I guess, some of these other coaches in sports that seem to be a little bit more obsessed.
Lisa Alexander 02:22
Ah, yes, I do. But it's not unusually nipple, because I guess we've come up in our we've grown up in our sport, having to manage lots of different parts to our lives, whether it's working as well, because many of coaches in nipple are volunteers and and as you're becoming a coach in nipple, you have to do it for the love of it, not necessarily the money. And so every one of those coaches that it's made it to the top level is always surprised when you talk about money, because they're doing what they love, and they're very grateful for being paid the amount that they do get paid. I don't think it's enough. Of course, I always think, you know, our netball coaches to get more, but I think they're all, you know, so grateful to be able to do the thing that they absolutely love doing, which is, you know, helping young people to develop and get better at what they do, and all within a teaming environment. And netball is like, you know, physical chess. It's, you know, we can say it's moving parts around the chessboard, so it's actually a great intellectual exercise as well.
Paul Barnett 03:26
I've been going along to watch the giants with my daughters, and I can testify to just how fantastic it is live when you watch all the strategy play out in front of you. But Lisa, you talked there about coaching philosophy, and it was the first question, I think you asked most of the people you interviewed, can you tell us about some of the things you discovered when talking to people about their philosophy?
Lisa Alexander 03:49
I think what I discovered is actually how similar they all are, really at the end of the day, they're doing it because they want to help people improve and young people to get better, not just on the Netball court, but off court. I think that was the thing that I was most pleased to hear, was that everyone had that thought of developing, not just the athlete on the court or the field, but they really wanted to help improve their lives off the court and help them to see other opportunities and ways that they could grow as a person. Because I think everyone seemed to agree that if you had that off court balance, it seemed to translate into really good on court performances. And this wasn't always the case. So this has been something that's grown into the vernacular of coaching over particularly since I started with the diamonds back in 2011 it was almost like a dirty word to speak about off court or, you know, athlete well being, whereas now we know it's so important, particularly for the mental health of young people. Yeah.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 04:59
Well, that change has just occurred in a decade.
Lisa Alexander 05:04
It really has. I think before then, I think there was a realization back then that we, we haven't got an endless supply of athletes. We haven't got an endless supply of population growth either in Australia. And, you know, back in my day, I don't know about you, Paul, but it was pretty much dog eat dog getting your way up the talent ladder. And it was, you know, who could sort of yell the loudest, or, I don't know, just people seem to be picked out if they could just keep going and always show up, whereas I think these days, you haven't got that same talent pipeline in terms of numbers. So you've really got to look after the people that you are developing into the athletes of today. So there's a lot more care and attention placed on how we look after the athletes that we bring into our talent pipeway pipeline, and then what we provide for them afterwards as well, that transition back into careers, or, you know, other education opportunities for those athletes. So there's always that mindset of, you know what, what we're doing to bring them in, and then also what we're doing afterwards as well.
Paul Barnett 06:15
I think it's the biggest thing I've learned through these interviews, is the power of care, or the focus on care. I If you'd asked me before I started interviewing great coaches, my top 10 leadership words, I'm not sure care would have been in there, whereas now it's front and center in the approach I try to bring to to my work. So I I agree, and I think that spillover from sporting good into corporate life is is taking hold as well, particularly when it comes to care as a way of Unlocking Potential.
Lisa Alexander 06:50
Yeah, and certainly, the more that you understand the person that you're working with on that journey of self discovery as well, as you know, in ensuring some improvement in them as both people and athletes. You know, it's, it's, it's that requirement to be focused on what it is that you need to bring to that relationship. And you know, you can say that, Oh, that that player, they can't be coached. But you know, Joyce Brown would often say to me, Well, Lisa, you do have to coach that person you've that's the challenge of coaching the very top level is to unlock that potential. So if I haven't been able to do that with a particular athlete, I feel like that's a failure. But you know, that is something that you have to cope with. Sometimes it might not be you in the coaching team that brings out that great ability within a player. It might be somebody else, it might be the assistant coach, it might be the strength and conditioning coach. It could be the team psychologist that brings out that or unlocks that potential. And I think as a head coach, you've gotta be humble enough to understand it may not all have to come from you. It could be someone within your coaching team that unlocks that potential.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 08:05
Lisa, can we go from Unlocking Potential to stakeholders? Because you had this amazing interview recently, a couple of weeks ago, with Eddie Jones, a real scoop, and Eddie's story is there, and I think most people listening will be aware of it, but listening to the interview it, it made me wonder, what you think the best coaches do when it comes to balancing the needs of backroom stakeholders?
Lisa Alexander 08:36
Wow, that's such a good question. And you know, interesting that, you know, I would say in the past, Eddie would have been one of those people that I felt like he did a really great job of that from the outside. But I really understand now that, you know he's, he's like anyone else in that coaching level, that you know things can come undone through sometimes no fault of your own, if somebody else, if you know you've aligned yourself to a certain part of a board, and then the rest of the board decides to get rid of that particular person, then you know you're you're in trouble, so to speak. And I think that's what Eddie found when you know, working with the Wallabies recently, and you know, you can't always, you can't always control that. You can be informed about it as much as possible. I know that when there was an issue with our board back into, I think was 217 I got advice from my own mentor, Bill sweetnum At the time, who I think, out of all the people that I speak to, is probably the most politically savvy in terms of understanding the state, the stakeholders and what's in front of him. He just said to me, you just, you have to, you have to take the line of being on the fence. You can't support one versus the other, because if you support. One side, then what if they get the boot and, you know, the other side digs their heels in. So, you know, I think it's really important for coaches to be politically astute, but not to always be so involved that they end up being caught on, as you know, collateral damage, so to speak, when there is a board spill. So I think it's a matter of knowing what's happening in the board and having some good information about it, but making sure your alignment is not in a in a place where it's overdeveloped on one side and not on the other side. I think you've got to be able to, you know, be very, very fair and equitable around the associations you have across the board, but you can't ignore it, either. [PB3] That's the other thing you've got to, especially at that very, very top level, you have to know what's going on. So you need to, if you're, if you don't want to be involved, you need to have someone who is, you know, covering your back in that that light someone that you trust.
Paul Barnett 11:06
I want to talk a little bit in there. You talked a little bit about alignment and language and making sure that you're connecting with people. But listening to the people you interviewed, it was also effortless, like they they seek to just answer off the cuff. You said you sent the questions, but they were very they're very engaging. And I sort of wondered, I know that you do a lot of work with community teams as well, and you've got a background as a school teacher, but I wondered how the language of elite level coaches might differ from that at lower levels.
Lisa Alexander 11:43
Look it really doesn't at the end of the day, I think we can, we can get into high performance babble, speak. And my husband always hates acronyms all the time. What does that mean, HP and SN and sh and whatever it is we do get into that technical language of a particular profession. And I think what I think, what I did in the interviews was trying to unlock that technical sometimes you can have a conversation with someone that's so technical that no anybody else listening to it couldn't understand. So my goal was to show those coaches in all their holistic glory, in terms of how good they are as people and coaches. So to go into too much technical language and kind of like the old boys club or the old girls club wouldn't have fulfilled, you know, our brief for those interviews. So I think it was, it was good that I also took that as the interviewer. I took down that technical language down to a a more understandable level for everyone to listen to. And you know, I got enormous support from that, from my editor, and you know, therefore I could hopefully make the coach relax and actually give a little bit more of themselves, not just the technical coach facade as such that you have to be sometimes in different roles that you play as A head coach,
Paul Barnett 13:19
it definitely came across as they were trying to engage with you more as a as a peer, not necessarily a head coach. And I, I found the language very easy to engage with, and that comes from someone who does know what a GK and a wa stands for in netball.
Lisa Alexander 13:37
With that, it's also the fact that I think there was that respect between the two of us. I think when sometimes, when coaches are interviewed by journalists, and I'll give you that example of Owen slot, who interviewed Eddie, you know, with the times, there seemed to be this agenda, whereas I made it really clear and I had conversations with the coaches beforehand that I was wanting to show them in the very best light possible, because I wanted to show Australians particularly but people from overseas have watched them as well how great our coaches are at what they do. And so that was my goal, and I made that very clear. And so they felt comfortable about that, and also they know me as well. Nearly all of the coaches know me personally, so they knew that I was coming from a good place, so they didn't need to put up their protective armor. They could give of themselves.
Paul Barnett 14:35
I can tell you that I have to work doubly hard on that because i The people I interview. I can't meet them as a peer, and so I'm always trying to find a way to give them a more get them to give a more honest and authentic answer. And it is, it is difficult. They're on guard, they're they're worried that their words will be misused or potentially played back, I think, to an athlete, that might render a relationship a little less weaker than it was so. You were able to cut through that quite significantly. And I think it showed, yeah,
Lisa Alexander 15:04
well, we did have as prickly point with one of the coaches who didn't want to go back too much around, you know, the people leaving the club. I think Dan would be quite comfortable with me saying that. But what it did is it gave Dan an opportunity to show the positive side of yes, there were a few people that left the club, but look at what we've got, and look at how exciting it's going to be. And it actually has played out that way. They're now, you know, third on the ladder. They're in the finals, and, you know, they've beaten every team, I think so, you know, they've got as much opportunity to win as Grand Final as anyone else, and that's been with half their team going
Paul Barnett 15:46
especially like Dan's interview. I thought it was a really good one. Actually. I thought it was, yeah,
Lisa Alexander 15:51
and he had, you know, and he's, he's one of the younger coaches in our group, but I think he's, you know, just doing a magnificent job of what he does and how he communicates his narrative around the team. It's, you know, it's fantastic.
Paul Barnett 16:05
Lisa, in your interview with Tracy Neville, she talked about the challenges of starting a new team from scratch, and pretty amazing. It was pretty amazing. And she's got, of course, an amazing background. Her whole family have had success in the sporting world, but listening to Tracy talk and you engage with her, it made me wonder what you see as the most common mistakes new leaders make when they take over a team.
Lisa Alexander 16:34
I think the most common mistake they make is not finding out and doing a lot of research beforehand, or even coming in and just ensuring they spend probably at least six weeks finding out who's who in the zoo and getting to understand really the politics around the club, and also doing their own Little review for themselves about whether this is the right place for them. So those sorts of things are really important. But I think the advantage that Tracy had is that she could come in with a really open mind about what she could create with that team. And you know, I think what we've seen as a result of that has been a club that's immediately captured the hearts of half of Melbourne, which is terrific. So they had a very clear purpose and vision about what they were going to do, and I think Tracy was the perfect coach to drive that, because that's very much part of her DNA as a coach back in England, with both Manchester thunder and also with England, so knowing kind of that your purpose aligns with the type of purpose and vision that clearly Craig Hutchison and also Shay Brown came up with, with the Mavericks, I think, has enabled Tracy to really put her stamp on The Club. Clearly, from the start, one of the things that she did, which was a smart move, was to get an assistant coach who knew the Victorian pathway inside out. That means the talent pipeline in Victoria. And she kind of know, you know, Nick Richardson knows who's who in the zoo, so having someone like that is in a key appointment is really important as well when you're first starting in a new club. So the two of you, at least together, can get the Netball side of the club operating to its best immediately. And that's what was needed with this team. I mean, they've had their challenges, enormous challenges, and even I remember saying to Tracy, she she didn't realize how far it is and how long it took to go from one side of Melbourne down to Geelong on a Friday afternoon, and so simple things like that, like logistics things and organizational things can become real obstacles for new leaders when they come in. So there's, it's always good to have someone else who's a real operations, logistics type of guru to help you, I guess, smooth the transition from a mechanic's point of view as well.
Paul Barnett 19:23
So Tracy was able to transfer her skills from England to Australia. It was the same sport, but it's still it's a different geography. And I'm wondering, and I know that, and I'm bringing this question up because I know that you've written about it extensively, and I want to hear your thoughts, I guess, on, on, on take. But how transferable are coaching skills across different sports, even industries,
Lisa Alexander 19:46
more and more these days. Of course, they are in industries as well. We know that CEOs can be, you know? They could be an accountant, they could be a scientist, they could be a teacher. Really, it doesn't. Matter what their technical profession was, at the end of the day, they have to learn how to be a leader of a business or an enterprise of some sort. And so their job is actually to lead and manage people to produce the best outcomes for the business. And that coaching process applies across business, in my view. So that's why CEOs can move from profession to profession, and certain professions seem to lean towards different you know, enterprises like lawyers, maybe and accountants seem to be able to manage, you know, quite massive differences in what the company actually produces.
But at the end of the day, I think it is the way that somebody is able to communicate their vision, stay disciplined, to their plan and their creation that they're wanting to have, and having the ability to then come back to it and make it accountable for the people that are in the different areas that they're leading at the time. So I look, I said, Well, why don't West Coast really ring me up and say, Do I want to be the head coach of West Coast Eagles? I know they won't, because it's just too much of a gap in terms of a leap of faith that people have in how people operate as coaches. I know myself, I could coach a team, a team sport, in another sport, because I would make sure I put the people around me that would make up for the areas that I wasn't as strong in in that particular sport, but I still understand strategy, I still understand psychology, I still understand how to bring a team together. I still understand high performance sport. So there are many elements to high performance coaching that are transferable across sports, it's actually less the it's less there's less that's not the same as how much there is the same these days. And[PB4]
Paul Barnett 22:11
there are some examples emerging of people being able to do it, apart from Ted lasso. We have people like Neil Craig, who I know you know quite well who have been able to transfer across? Yeah,
Lisa Alexander 22:23
and also Rick Charlesworth as well, of course, with, I mean, he has had a background in cricket and has, you know, then transferred from playing in hockey and coaching hockey to cricket as well. I think he's a classic example of how you can do that, even though he didn't play cricket to an Australian level, I'm certain that he could coach the Australian cricket team if he was asked to do that. What puts people off is the history and the politics of what happens in sport is the thing that actually stops people taking that leap of faith into putting someone in charge who's never coached that particular sport before.
Paul Barnett 23:09
How would you get around the one of the main barriers I would see, and I'm thinking as a CEO here, is that you have to challenge people. So you've got to challenge the supply chain person, you need to challenge the finance person, the salesperson, and if you haven't got the deep technical skills, sometimes that challenge can be a little bit more difficult. How would you get around something like that? Oh,
Lisa Alexander 23:34
certainly, by having a mentor who is hot in that area, who you can refer to. It's sort of like having your own little board of directors. I'll give an example. I I'm not a strength and conditioning coach, okay, and I know enough about it to have a good idea and understanding of it, but I'm not an expert in it. So if I need to be able to challenge my own strength and conditioning coaches. I go to a mentor in that area, and I have a mentor in strength and conditioning, and I talk with him about that, and he then educates me around the questions that I should be asking now he will have been across, you know, whether it's a program or an idea of how, you know, we're going to go about our strength and conditioning part of the plan. And he will then, you know, bring help me to have the meetings and understandings together with my strength and conditioning coach about what we want to deliver to the diamonds or our under 20 ones team, or whoever it is. So it's having that ability to have people who you can trust and rely on, who can give you that information, forecasting, making sure you're ahead of the game. They have, they might have a worldview that you don't get time to be across, and they. Certainly do that research and understanding. And as long as you've got that and you've got the ability to understand what they're saying and distill that into an idea of how you want it for your own business or your own sport, I think you can challenge people to be at World's best, and then they've got to explain to you why they're not doing something, or how they're doing it differently, and you, as a CEO, can make that judgment according to your own understanding of how the business is going to be moving forward.[PB5]
Paul Barnett 25:35
Lisa, what have you learned? I mean, you've got these mentors in your life, and you're clearly very good at listening and asking questions you you wouldn't have been able to span the geographies, the sports, the teams, the organizations that you have had success in if you weren't able to do that. But what have you learned through your own observation and the people you've interviewed about the line between listening but not getting stuck in the push for consensus.
Lisa Alexander 26:05
Yeah, that's a really good question as well, because it's, it's the tough, hard ask. It's, I think it's something you practice and and one of my coaching I guess colleagues, who, who's, who's the, one of the gurus of education of coaches in Australia is Dr Cliff Mallard at University of Queensland, talked about the metacognition of coaches and likened it to the decision making that pilots make or surgeons or whatever.
And it's that ability to distill lots of information together and then come to and have your own decision making framework based on, you know, your current areas of importance and priority in a business, and then be able to cut through and make a decision based on that. That's a very technical approach. But what I find is you, you do need to speak to people and communicate within your own business first before you make a final decision on something. And I think spending that time on doing that and having people feel ownership of that decision as well, and sometimes having those debates and discussions about things and then having an alternative decision as a as a boss or a CEO, a leader or a coach, is okay, because then the team feels like you've empowered them to add to the information in front of you, add to the data, add to your understanding, but still, at the end of the day, you have to be comfortable, from a holistic point of view, that the decision you're making is in the best interests of everybody, from a holistic point of view, because companies are not data points, they're not budgets, they're people, and people have to be the ones that enact the changes that you are making decisions about. [PB6]
So I think if people understand that you're coming from a very authentic place around that, then they're quite comfortable if you make a decision. And of course, you're you're the one that's living and dying by that decision as well not dying as such. But you're staking your reputation on that decision. You make those you practice making those decisions over your whole life. You probably everyone does. They just don't understand how much they do do that in their lives. And you know that's everyone will have a slightly different approach to it, but at the end of the day, it's that considered decision making that's really important. And in coaching, sometimes it has to be done really, really quickly. And it's when all of your experience comes together in your mind and body that you know you've made the right decision or the right call at that particular time.
Paul Barnett 29:06
And I think learning to live with the discomfort of that decision or the the doubt that comes with that decision is also something that characterizes great coaches. It
Lisa Alexander 29:21
is, and then most of them are prepared to deal with the downside as well. The downside can be very difficult and hard, but sometimes you have to understand, even when you've given your absolute best, you will still lose or something will go wrong. But you've got to have that ability to, you know, dust yourself off and get back onto it and remain disciplined to your plan unless it needs to change according to the current data that you have in front of you so and it's being authentic in that practice, I think, and being consistent in that practice of consulting others to make. Your decisions,
Paul Barnett 30:02
Lisa, when we interviewed you was almost four years ago. Can remember it so vividly? I was living in Prague back then. You talked about this fascinating you called it a trademark, and you described it as the sisters in Arps. And it was something that you came up with with Ray McLean, I think was the gentleman's name with the diamonds to really define the culture you wanted. It was an amazing idea, and it stayed with me for a long time afterwards, I've only ever discovered a couple of other examples of people doing that. Out of, you know, 200 plus interviews, it's a very small percentage. But have you discovered any other examples of people using a similar narrative to describe the team environment they wanted to create? Yeah,
Lisa Alexander 30:49
definitely. I think. You know, thankfully, nearly all of our netball coaches will have a way of I guess. I call it their game plan of playing, or their philosophy of playing, and it's the Firebirds way, or it's the vixens way. This is the way we play, and it'll also be married into the behaviors that they expect of the players on and off court. So they may not call it a trademark, but they'll keep they'll call it a whether it's a purpose or a vision for their season. They might call it a theme for their season. And you know, particularly someone like Dan Ryan will have that for fever as well, where they're really, they've got that bigger picture in mind of really what they're trying to achieve together. And it's a it's a call to arms, it's a call to the team that you know, if the things are going a little bit wrong at a particular time, we just need to get back to our basics and understand what it is we're doing and why we're doing it together. So it's always that call to come back in I call it the call them in strategy, even when I was teaching, and just the reminder to your class or your team about what what it is you're trying to do and trying to do together, not only as a teacher and, you know, pupils, but a coach and a team, or even if it's a CEO in a in an organization, we always need reminders about things People forget. Our human nature. We're not all it's not always embedded in us. In fact, you know, that's one of the tests I think Ray used to give to us sometimes, is he would test us whether we'd stuck to our trademark in terms of, you know, doing a induction of our new players. That would be one of the things he'd ask the leaders, have you inducted such and such, Kim Jenner into the squad, and Caitlin Bassett to say, yes, I've done this, this and this. So it's part of that ongoing process of it's not just a word up on a board. It means much more. It's got to be revisited. You've got to go back to it, because it could need changing according to what's happened in a particular situation when you win a World Cup versus when you lose a World Cup, you come back to it. It's solid. It's a foundational part of what you're wanting to achieve with a group. And so there could be a number of different ones. I know some of the clubs I'm working with at the moment, they've got some different little acronyms that they use as well. And you know, they're all very individually specific to that. The All Blacks, you know, one that comes to mind is, you know, we leave, we always clean the sheds, meaning, you know, we always make sure we leave things in a really excellent place before we leave that. And so that's that idea of legacy. The diamonds had that as well, where they wanted to make sure they left our program and our what they, you know, achieved together in the best possible light before they then moved on. And the next group of diamonds comes into the into the sisters. They still use sisters in arms, which is nice.
Paul Barnett 34:11
I mean, the only other Well, I found a couple of ones, but I found a great example from the Melbourne rebels, actually another Australian team, and they the the the women's rugby team, and they talked about be a rebel like her. And they'd centered everything around this whole idea of be a rebel, break rules, you know, move forward, do things differently. And I thought it was very powerful, but it is an interesting idea, but it's got to be authentic. And I think you you found one with sisters in arms, and I remember when you described it, you were saying, What does it feel like on the on the sideline when you when you achieve your aspiration, it feels like we're sisters in arms. I thought it was still one of the best ones I've ever heard. Yeah,
Lisa Alexander 34:50
it is and it go. It was because it was connected mind and and heart as well, that the diamonds immediately got emotional when they thought of it. Yeah. Because they could think of themselves on the side of the court, arms around each other singing the national anthem. And that's when Laura dykes came up with, Oh, why not? Why don't we go for sisters in arms? So it does take a little bit of time to get to that connection, and it might not come even in the first season. It might be all of a sudden during the preseason of the next season. Oh, there's the word that we need to start using, and it's organic. It's it's not something you can impose on someone.
Paul Barnett 35:34
Lisa, I might just finish, if I can, by talking about leadership. I started this podcast because I was fascinated by the leadership traits of great coaches, I still think they are the best leaders I've ever experienced in my life, and through the interviews, I've come to see that they define leadership as influencing people so they thrive, which is very different from the corporate world, where I think the Most common definition of leadership is an allocation of scarce resources against a strategic goal, something like that, something that sort of is long term and about scarce resources. But if I was to ask you, you've now spanned different worlds. We were talking earlier about the work you're doing with a couple of companies and so forth, but what do you think all leaders can learn from great sports coaches.
Lisa Alexander 36:23
I think they can learn two things. Number one, possibility thinking, so that you're always thinking about what's possible. What could we do? So they're great problem solvers around that. And have, I mean, always have the clar the glass half full approach to things. They need to have that because they're inspirational at the end of the day. I mean, the best leaders are inspiring, and their words are their actions, so what they say is what they do, and I think they're the two things for me that count.[PB7]
Paul Barnett 37:08
Lisa, it's always great to chat with you. I love following along with your social media posts. I'll put all the links in the show notes to where people can find you. You always have a provocative view. And as we heard today, you have a very, very deep view on leadership when it comes to the world of sport. So I thank you very much for your time today. Thank you.