Markus Weise edit Podcastle
Sat, Feb 01, 2025 4:23PM • 48:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaching, talent development, conflict management, team relationships, leadership, motivation, performance goals, success goals, intuition, team selection, legacy, high performance, trust, respect, feedback culture
SPEAKERS
Alan McConnell, Paul Barnett, Markus Weise
Paul Barnett 00:04
Marcus Weiss, welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Markus Weise 00:09
Hello. Thanks for having me your show. Thank you for coming
Paul Barnett 00:13
along for the interview. And before I ask you start asking you questions, I must introduce my co interviewer for tonight. Of course, many of you who listen to the podcast regularly will know Dr David Turner, David, good evening, good morning or good afternoon.
Alan McConnell 00:29
Yeah, good morning from here. But I'm really looking forward to talking to Marcus today. He's got some really interesting aspects to his story that I think people are going to find inspiring.
Paul Barnett 00:39
Well, Marcus, perhaps we should start with something really simple. Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been doing so far today?
Markus Weise 00:48
Okay, I, I live in Hamburg, and I'm sitting here at home in my home office, yet doing this podcast. So since 2008 I live here in Hamburg, originally. I come from Mannheim, which is a smaller town in southwest part of Germany at the Rhine River. Yeah. Then moved to to to marriage reasons to Hamburg in 2008 and since then I I stopped, I can't really say I start coaching, which that wouldn't be true. But my profession now is, I'm responsible for the Hamburg pyramid of talents, so I'm kind of a decentralized sports director. Now, I started in 2019 and have a contract till 28 so in Germany, you always get four, four year contracts in sport, which is kind of ridiculous, but that's the way it is. So it did get fired after the fourth first term. I got a second one, so I'm responsible for the Hamburg pyramid. So that means Olympic players down to under 13 players. And Hamburg field hockey is, is, is a big city game in Germany. You will find it in rural areas. So Hamburg is a big city, so there's lots of talent there. And Hamburg is has a special situation where, I think or up to five teams coming from Hamburg, playing in the first division of Germany. So there's lots of hobbies going on, and there's lots of talents, and I'm responsible for that pyramid. Well,
Paul Barnett 02:31
we're going to talk about talent later on. We're also going to talk about different career moves, and how you've gone from hockey into football and now into another area. But I wanted to start Marcus with with some of the the great coaches that you've worked with. So I know that Bernhard Peters played a big role in your early development as a coach. I also know that you've coached against and spent time with Ric Charlesworth and Barry dancer. Big, big spectacular. They are. Indeed. We've interviewed both of those gentlemen. I loved it. Yeah, they're great. They're great. I always describe Ric to Dr David as sort of being this icon in Australia and being she's great coach. But I'm sure there's been many others you've seen along your journeys, whether it's with field hockey or football. But I'm I'm wondering, Marcus, what you think the great coaches do differently. That sets them apart.
Markus Weise 03:26
That's a very good questions. There's so many good coaches, maybe there are not so many outstanding coaches. Correct, um, I can try and give an answer. I mean, Ric is a is a very good example. He's he's quite different compared to myself. So it's not just about personality. You can have very different personalities and still be a great coach.
I think the really good coaches, they have a clear vision of what they want to achieve. I'm pretty sure that if you don't have that, that's a major obstacle in your way. If you don't have a clear vision of what you really want to achieve, no matter what your what your field of is, I think it helps if you have a knowledge of who you are yourself, self knowledge, what makes you tick, what motivates you, so get some knowledge about yourself. I think I'm pretty sure that all the great coaches have the ability to reflect about their own work and check what they do good, and check what they what they're not doing good. And if there's something on that list, they really have the ability to fix that. [PB1]
And another point is, I'm pretty sure that the really good coaches have a. Are strong relationships in their teams to with the with the players, and they also monitor the relationships the players have with each other.
Because, well, coming from a team sport where it's all about collaborating to get this high performance everyone is looking for, I think it's really the baseline is you have to build teams on on trust and respect. If that's not there, you won't have a team. And trust and respect is also the base for strong relationships, because at the end of the day you you will have conflicts, and you will have to fight. You will have to fight with players. Players fight with each other. But it's not about is that the correct it's not about the picking order is that, is that something that makes sense in the team. It's about how we deal with problems on the pitch, in training, on the pitch, on and off the pitch, in the locker room, wherever. So that's kind of the you have to embrace that sort of conflict, because it's learning environment for everyone. So conflict, for example, in Germany, is kind of something negative, but I think it's, it's really something positive, because it gives you the chance to learn something. It's not so much about who is right or wrong. It conflict is, is about, um, sharing different perspectives. You know, if I have a conflict with one of my players, there's two, two, at least two perspectives on, on, on a topic might be a technical stuff might be tactical stuff might be some sort of general behavior. Doesn't, doesn't matter, but it's two perspectives. And as soon as you leave the right and wrong approach and maybe go around the topic, see the well, try to to get yourself into the other guys shoes and share that perspective. That's learning environment. So I would say, embrace conflict as a learning environment. Um, try to establish your feedback culture that is all the good team, you will find conflict in every single good team, no matter what their field is. And I, I believe that good coaches, they embrace conflict as a perfect learning environment. [PB2]
So maybe the last, last, last thing in my mind is ask simple questions. I think the good coaches ask really simple questions. Like, a while ago, I read this brilliant book. I think it was an English from an English rowing team. Does it make the boat go faster? I loved it. Okay, that's a simple question. So if you're running a campaign towards, I think that was the towards the Sydney Olympics, and was, I don't know the expression in German, it's after. So it's eight big guys in a boat, plus a smaller guy doing the steering and the motivation and screaming these big balls to row faster. And in that sort of campaign, everything comes up. You know, it's about technology. There's some new boats, some some, some new design stuff like that. But get get it down. To ask simple question, does it make the boat go fast? And to me, this is, this is also a metaphor I can my guys, they never sat in a row, and boat, does it make the boat go faster as as so if we do this differently, or if we, I don't know, use different balls, or do some other tactics, um, does it really make the boat go faster? So asking simple questions is something I think the great coaches always do. Is that okay, for a start.
Paul Barnett 09:01
That's, that's a perfect start. I mean, this idea of conflict, okay, this idea of conflicts very interesting, isn't it? Because I know Ric Charlesworth talks about it a lot, mining for conflict. And Ric is friends with Eddie Jones, the famous rugby coach, and he, I think it's central to his philosophy. He believes there's always conflict, and if you're not, if it's not visible, you've got a mind for it. So that that really, really resonated, I think, with me, and it's something that's consistent with the other coaches we've heard, heard of, but, but David, maybe I'll hand to you to ask a little bit about where the journey began.
Alan McConnell 09:41
Sure, I'm overwhelmed by how good that first answer was. It was so good. There's so much richness there for for my coaching students to think about what separates great coaches out. Just touching on conflict briefly, you know, if you're in a team situation and there isn't any conflict, I'd be very suspicious, absolutely. Okay, as I think Paul alluded to, you know, it's underneath the surface, if it's not apparent. And conflict, I love the way that you turn conflict around to be a positive force. And I've read about a concept called healthy conflict, and, you know, it's a source of learning and understanding, as you indicate. So, really fascinating, really interesting in terms of, does it make the boat go faster? It made me think of what I think is an Australian term, Paul, which is, is it worth the candle? In other words, it's worth going through. This
Paul Barnett 10:29
is heard that one? I'm sorry, I've got
Alan McConnell 10:33
an Australian academic paper. It's quite obscure, but that's the title of it. Is it worth the candle? And I quite like that. It was really Australian in its terms. That was a terrible Australian accent. Poplars, you talked about having a clear a clear vision, which I think is really important, but I just want to understand a little bit about how you got into coaching. And if what I've read is right, I think it was an element of happenstance. And I don't think you planned to
Markus Weise 11:00
go. It was, oh yeah, I kind of stumbled into it. It wasn't, it wasn't the plan. It sort of happened to me. Well, I started coaching. Eddie even knew I was coaching when I was still an active player. It just happened to me. I started, I was, I was kind of players coach and and that's the way it started. So I played from one time, and as I started as a replacement coach, which was not available, I I would do some sessions, stuff like that. But seriously, I started the end of 91 I think because at that time, a a colleague came to me and she said, You know, I've got this group of really talented girls, 10 to 12 years old of age, and and they, if it's a there's a super talented group. And if I go on coaching these girls, then they will not make it okay. They're not become the players they could become. Can you take over this group? And I thought, I've never coached 10 to 12 year old girls. What the heck do I really do this? So So I showed up and checked the group, and it was full of talent. So I said, Okay, let's give it a go and try how far you can get. And so the core team was superb. It was a it was huge, and it was, and I know 25 to 30 girls, so you could afford to lose some, because once I started, it was all about performing better. And that's not everybody's cup of tea in a group of girls with 3030 guys. So we lost some, but the core remained stable and and went all the way. I think to me, that was the start. At that time, it was still studying. I was I'm not coming from study wise. I'm not coming from sports. I didn't study sports science or science or coaching. I started business administration, not because it was my favorite subject. It was I didn't have a better plan. So I started and and I Manheim. Is Manheim University is pretty big at Business Administration, so I was kicked out of university nearly twice, and learned a lot about mental stability and oral exams. So So I pushed through, and I've got my diploma. And so the plan was not to end up being a full time coach. I started working as a Well, I started working in a small hockey firm, and did that for five years, and coaching went along as a second job. And my plan was never to to go all in, because at that time, that wasn't really a perspective to kind of grow a family and build your life on. You couldn't earn the money, to be honest. And nowadays that's so 3035, years later, that that has changed. But when I started, it wasn't a professional perspective. So the first offer I got was in 2003 as a full time coach for the German Federation. That was the time when I said, Okay, I'm going all in. I take the risk not knowing if it's going well. If it's not going well, I might find something else. So that's how I got into it.
Alan McConnell 14:41
I think it's really interesting. I was talking to my final year students, you know, going out into the world at work soon, and trying, getting more clued in for their employability. And we visited a theory called prom Bolts is learned happenstance theory. It's about career, but it but it's exactly illustrating what you're saying is, you know, we fall into things. And we find our way, almost by accident. We way find a little bit. Could you just a couple of questions about that, though, before we move on? You know, you said that you kind of fell into this because you were a player who was quite influential on others. Were you a captain at that time?
Markus Weise 15:13
Yeah, I was captain. I wasn't, well, my players ability are I was a decent player and a useful player on a first and second division level, playing Okay. Most of the time I played in the Second Division. I wouldn't bring myself to change clubs. I could have changed and played more seasons than the first division as a useful player in midfield, okay, but I was never close to making a sport on the on national team, okay, but for some reason, I was voted, and I at some stage, we replaced our long time coach, and I had to play and coach. So that kind of thing just happened as well. It wasn't planned. I had to do this brilliant talk. I was captain, so I had to go and meet, meet the coach and tell the team has just voted you off. You're no longer the coach. It's a brilliant talk. I loved it, but I had to do it. And I didn't after that, okay, we didn't have a coach, so I had to do this.
Alan McConnell 16:19
So that prepared you for conflict. I wonder. It is the way you captained. Is that reflective of the way you cut you ended up coaching.
Markus Weise 16:28
I'm not sure if my captain's role, but it's okay. The captain's role is it's connected to the leadership, and leadership is connected to coaching. There is something, yeah, I don't know, to be honest,
Alan McConnell 16:45
that's fine. Um, let's move on a little bit to to to later on, when you were very successful in coaching. So act three successive Olympic Games from 2004 onwards. You led teams that won Olympic gold medals. So I wonder what evolved in your style and your coaching process from the first to the third medal, kind of what was the journey of development for you as a coach alongside that?
Markus Weise 17:10
So that's a tough one. Actually, I don't think there's a big change in myself. I really use the same approach in all these three campaigns. Okay, what did change? There is something that did change. And how can I describe that? It's about being close or being distant towards players, yeah, and I,
when I started coaching, I if there is a scale from one to 10, and one is you're super close to players and teams like you're kind of the same group with family, and you do every day that you you're the best friend of the players. That's the number one, and number 10 is the opposite side. You're totally distant, and you hate these players, and you wouldn't talk to them, okay? Totally distant. I would I was never I was number one, I was number two, and sometimes I went as close as three, but I could act as a number 10. I remember we had a the Olympic qualifier with the girls team in 2004 in Auckland, we qualified, and by reaching the semifinal, and after we had two more games, and in my eyes, we played shitty hockey, and I wouldn't talk to the girls for two days. So I still had the ability to, even though there was the success, I still had the ability to to act, yeah, a bit childish and super distant. I took it personally, to be honest, and so after a while, I I realized that this is not the best way to go, but I still managed to my worst coaching experience was the World Cup 2006 where I, I don't know, mismanaged the tournament completely nothing. We ended up in position eight, even though we drew against the later worlds, World Cup winner on and so it was not so much about the level of the team, but my level of coaching. I think there was the poorest level of coaching I did because I brought private problems into that setting, and I wouldn't. I wasn't able to to change my position towards the team. So if something is going wrong, I would at that stage, I would just blame the team, and I expected the team to move towards me, and I wouldn't. I couldn't bring myself to to move towards the team at that stage. That would have been necessary to change something in this tournament, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. So that changed later on. So while I matured as to become a better coach, I. I think it's crucial to learn that you shouldn't be too close and you shouldn't be too distant towards your team, because that hurts the relationships inside the team, and if these relationships are hurt, you will no longer high performance is far more difficult to achieve. That's[PB3]
Alan McConnell 20:19
really interesting. Thanks for that answer on evolution and change. I'm going to flip that round a little bit to talk about stability and authenticity. So many coaches have reached the top in terms of achievements in sport, but very few have stayed at the top consistently, which is something remarkable about you. So what was it about you as a person and a coach that enabled you to achieve consistent success, do you think in winning three successive Olympic golds across eight years and becoming the only coach to win Olympic golds with both men's and women's team sports?
Markus Weise 20:51
Yeah, well, I mean, okay, that again is, is? It's a really good question. My answer will be major disaster, I fear. Okay, once you are a successful coach, and you stay a successful coach, then there's a story explaining that success. That's fine, but it's not the truth. It's not the same as that's the whole story. It's just a list of plausible arguments explaining why you were a successful coach.
But in my mind, it was always clear this is a super thin line separating success from failure. And in my mind this it goes through the head of the players, and as soon as you step over the line in your head. Well, from you have a choice. Every single minute you play, you have a choice, do a play as a proactive player, or do a play as a reactive player. Do a coach as a proactive coach, or do a coach as a reactive coach. [PB4] And as soon as you step over that line, and you don't realize you're coaching or you're playing on the wrong side of the pinch in your head. So it was so, so much luck and coincidence involved that it's really it I'd be a, I'd be a liar to say just because I coached her brilliantly. Um, we went on to win these three, three tournaments. I mean, it's the same result, and there's three different stories behind every every campaign. Yeah, yeah,
Alan McConnell 22:27
absolutely. And, you know, people ask me often, what difference does a coach make? And at best, well, one, one thing to say. First of all, I shock my final year students, when after three years, I say to them, there's no real clear evidence that coaching works show me it. You know, it's all it's all implied, um, by results, etc. I mean, it's really interesting you saying about the narrative that builds up around legendary coaches, particularly. But let me flip that narrative bit back to you to help you get a perspective on that question. What would your players say it was about you as a person and a coach that caused them to achieve highly there.
Markus Weise 23:05
Well, you would ask my players, but I know, I know bits and pieces, what they what they say in hindsight, I think they they have a really good feeling, or what kind of person you are when you're working with these guys. And I think they would say, okay, he had the strength to to get people on board to that that were in in various aspects, are stronger than than the coach himself.
So I always tried to to compose my staff teams and get brilliant staff people on board, who, who, who were better. Like, I'm, I'm a generalist, you know, I'm, I'm good in technical stuff. I'm good in tactics. Um, I know a lot about every single aspect. I'm not a specialist in any single area. So I think, um, in your leadership role, it's, it's crucial to bring on people who are brilliant in their expertise, on the one hand, and who don't have a super ego to just play on their brilliance all day long. So, and that is the same on the player side. If you, if you read the books of Phil Jackson. He has this. He has this great example of what separates good teams from great ones. He says, I think good teams become great ones when the members trust each other enough to surrender the me for the week. Yes, that's I always get goose pimples when I when I say that because it drinks, it rings so true, and it's exactly my experience.[PB5]
So I think players would say that, okay, that was one of my stronger points, especially managing tournaments, that this feeling of we was really there in both. Three campaigns in the Olympic tournament, not necessarily before that, but in the tournament, I managed to somehow create it and keep it alive. That's really
Alan McConnell 25:11
interesting. Before I hand you back to Paul, just a couple of quick things. Jackson also said, I love Jackson's work. Selflessness is the soul of teamwork. I love that phrase this really, absolutely, and before people come and lynch me for saying that coaching doesn't work or coaches don't add any value, one of my fungal coaches, Dave Sexton's an English football coach, said that a coach probably makes 10% difference at best. He said, But you know, 10% for a well educated coach is I
Markus Weise 25:41
agree. I mean, you're not playing, you're not you're not doing anything on the pitch. The players do the hard work, so all you have to do is help them and try maybe come better and work together a bit better. So I totally agree. Maybe it's just 10% maybe sometimes it's it depends on the situation and the context. Sometimes it might be more, but on average, it might only be 10% I agree.
26:09
Thank you,
Paul Barnett 26:11
Marcus, I have this interesting quote from you I'd like to explore you say, and one thing you need to prevent as a coach is to break that motivation and demotivate your players. That's probably one of the most important leadership tasks you have. Can you tell me it's a big call, and I want to understand why you call that out as being so important?
Markus Weise 26:37
Well, I think it's to be honest, I think it's much easier to demotivate a player than to motivate that. And you know, if you play, if you work with, I worked for years with the top 30, top 34 players in Germany. Okay, these players are really outstanding. I had world class players, female and male. So the job, these guys are motivated. I mean, in talking, you can't make it. It's not a professional sport. You can't make a living from it. So you have people who train twice a day and go to university or do a job. So these guys are unmotivated, and they can't afford doing a shitty job because they're gonna get kicked out of their their their companies, and they can't afford, they can prolong their studies, maybe a bit, but they can't afford to to to be shit in their studying, because at the end of the day, that's that's the baseline for the later question. So I've got these super motivated players. And if I, I know if, if my view is is super big, and it's all about me, and that's one, one way to demotivate players. Or if you, maybe, you have this situation where you can only select 18 players for a tournament from a group of maybe 24 to 30. So you leave out people, and they've they've done nothing wrong. So as as demotivating is, as soon as a player has no longer a perspective to be selected for the next tournament, and you have to give the perspective in an honest talk, people lose or she will lose motivation. And that's you shouldn't allow that as soon as you allow that the the level of the whole group is going downwards. And as that's exactly the wrong way to go, because from tournament to tournament, or for Livingstone thinking in in in four or five year cycles, you know you have to be better than four years ago. So think about it, and try not to demo, demotivate players and so monitor their behavior. Is there an indication that there's some lack of motivation? And as soon as you discover that, or someone on the staff discovers that that's a call to action. You need to talk with players. What's going on. Tell me. Just tell me, or tell someone you trust. [PB6]
Sometimes, as a as a head coach, it's you need guys on your staff, because not every single player wants to go to the head coach who selects the team and open up. Okay, so if there's some sort of problem, you need some people on your staff where players can go and open and then maybe I don't even have to know. I don't have I don't have to know. All I know is, okay, there is a talk. I trust my staff, I trust the players, and maybe one talk and fix the whole thing. And it's, again, about relationships. I
Alan McConnell 29:45
think it's all about relationships, isn't it? Coaching. There's
Paul Barnett 29:49
this theme that comes through, though we're listening to you, that it's about whether it's, you know, monitoring the relationships within the team, dealing with problems, reflecting, there's this speed we. Which you act on insight? Yeah, I think that seems to be a thing that comes through when you talk. And there'll be a lot of people listening who are in boardrooms or community groups and probably don't have that same speed to act on insights they're picking up within the team that they've got. So it is, it is interesting to hear you talk so openly about it and how Frank you are with with addressing these challenges.
Alan McConnell 30:27
I think my next question hits the agenda of the longer term decision making process. So might be nice to go on to that. So Marcus, can you share with us how and why you go about separating success goals from performance goals.
Markus Weise 30:42
Yeah. I learned that from my book area. I think it's, it's an Englishman, is it John Whitmore? He wrote John Wood mill. He wrote coaching for practice. That's the German title. I don't know what the English in English, it's coaching for performance. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Okay, the zuba and and there. That was the first time I learned these, these crucial lessons about,
I think the examples was Lynn Davis. He was a long jumper, and he won a gold medal in 64 and was the big favorite in 68 we all know who won long German 68 and no one knows Lynn Davis, I'm sorry to say it, but we all know Bob Beamon, because he won and and the competition there was was done for every single jumper. And Lynn Davis in 68 was the favorite because, and in an interview, he said, I got all I could think in four years I'm the favorite, and I want to one. I want to win another gold medal. And that's a success goal. The downside with success goals is there are some factors you can't control that have an influence on success goals in a team sport, for example, it's the decision making of the refs. Sometimes they just blow bullshit in there and it's against you and has an influence on the outcome of the game. Sometimes you you suffer from from injuries, because some of your key players, he might have a car accident, he's not his fault, but he might have a car accident, he's out for six months. So there are factors outside of your own control that have an influence of success goals, and that's the reason why, in that book, it was, it was promoted to build a second, second layer of gold performance goals. And the criteria is, okay, they need to be the devil by definition. You you need close to 100% control over these goals. So you, you've got technical stuff, you've got technical stuff. You could can do the athletic stuff. Can mental training and nutrition that's all under your own control, and the better you are there, the more likely it becomes that the success target is also achieved. So you can plan performance, you can't plan success. Yeah, that made a lot of sense to me, and so as soon as I realized that's a good idea. I started doing that.[PB7]
Alan McConnell 33:03
Yeah, absolutely. I'm in a leadership position here for staff, and you know, they're looking back with roasting their glasses on the past, and we're not performing as high as we were. But you gotta celebrate the everyday wins and the small battles and then the things you can control, and then eventually the big things happen from those small things? There's a John Wooden quote there somewhere, but I can't remember it right? I think we'll, we'll move on a little bit to kind of transferability. So some people have claimed that high quality leadership performance is transferable across different domains and settings, notably people like Sir Clive Woodward, who claimed that arson Wenger could run the post office, but few have successfully demonstrated that in applied action. Clive Wood himself wasn't very successful in transferring to football. Why did you initially transfer your leadership from German hockey to the German Football Association, and what were the constraints and affordances of doing so once you made the move? Well,
Markus Weise 33:59
actually, I didn't do that because I did not have a leadership role in in German football. And when I after the after London in 2012 I I thought about, Okay, do I go on coaching German Germany's men till the end of my professional days, is that a good idea? And I had a feeling that it's not a good idea for me and it's not a good idea for the team, and so I was not actively looking for some other stuff. And in 2015 this opportunity fell out in the blue sky into my left, I got a call and from from turn Football Federation, they were, they were looking for a guy who had success, who came outside the football world. They were trying to build an academy for German football and meet someone do. Doing the conceptual work. And I thought, that's that's interesting. So I was not in a leadership position. I was well, I was writing, I was doing strategy processes with with colleagues of the Federation and McKinsey, and we wrote about 15 books in various areas of football with the aim to make these areas better. And I did that for three and a half years. And after that, I had, again, the feeling, okay, that's enough. Now I have to move on and do something else. And I think the Federation had the same feeling.
Alan McConnell 35:43
Let's explore a couple of bits of that. If I can. Why was it not a good idea to carry on coaching hockey? I mean, you just won three successful it comes before you,
Markus Weise 35:51
I could have done that. That's, that's right, but I mean, clock, for example, it's, it's not, it's kind of comparable. He, he had a feeling here now I have, after my break, I have to have a break now from from legal. I could do, I could go on coaching liver, but it's a brilliant job. It's a brilliant team. There's endless, endless resources. I can, I can go on, but he had a feeling. No, I can't. I'm not kind of same feeling that it also, how do you say it? I'm not saying it eats you up, but in a way, it does you, you, you also it costs you a lot. And when you as long as you're young, you you don't realize that you do have to pay a price. And I'm pretty sure that really a lot of older, mature coaches would say, Okay, there's a price tag, because you have to put in a lot of energy. And in a way, it consumes part of you. So you need to, you need to develop a feeling, okay, when, when you have to stop and go for some some I could have after Tokyo, I was asked again to, do you want to coach another team at night? So now I'm not going back for me. It's, it would be a step into the wrong direction.
Alan McConnell 37:21
I was fascinated to talk to you because I've read and listened to quite a lot about you in the last few days. And I was really interested because a pillar of when you're coaching athletes is, it seems to me that the most important thing you look for in athletes is their own inner drive, their own say, again, it seems to me that when you work with players, most important thing of players is their own inner drive, their own inner motivation, absolutely, and I was really fascinated to find out about your inner motivation for that change. So I appreciate you said that coaching can be all consuming. And like clock, you know, there's an emotional intensity that can drain you. So I read that you you wanted a new challenge, which made me so were you a bit jaded at that time in terms of your coaching role in hockey?
Markus Weise 38:11
Well, actually, I've never stopped coaching hockey, but I stopped, I reduced the intensity, and even when well, the three and a half years at football, I stopped because I had to go to Frankfurt and had to I spent lots, lots of hours on on on train commuting from Hamburg to Frankfurt. So I stopped for three and a half years. But as soon as I went back to okay, I picked up coaching again. So this is more like projects or smart coach to the the girls team, where my daughters play playing. So nowadays I sometimes I just ask, Well, can I? Can I? Or I am asked, Do you want to come to the under 21 female program and do some parity corners or do some goal scoring stuff, and that's just for a couple of days. So I'm attached to a campaigns on a day, on a day off base. And that's, that's, that's, that's a great way to go for me right now. So I'm no longer in the position of being responsible for that team. Should I add value?
Alan McConnell 39:23
Yeah, so it's very much on your terms, but you're still able to connect with the purpose and joy of coaching to add value. Switching to team selection. What have you learned about team selection and the way it can cause conflict within the team before we revisit conflict?
Markus Weise 39:38
Yeah, well, team selection is a tricky piece, especially if it comes down to select the team for the Olympic tournament, because at the end of that, my experience is, at the end of the day, you sit there, you can nominate 18 players, and you've got 21 and so the first 10 to. Of maybe even 15. It's quite easy to nominate these guys, and no one will argue against it, but the last three sports, maybe it's not so super easy. So what I did is I tried to listen to my intuition. We can, we built these Excel sheets and field teams, and so maybe at the end of the you've got three different teams, because in Team A, these three players are playing, and in Team B, these and I try to to listen to my to my gut feeling, and if, if some sheets felt better, I would pick these guys. So that means I tried to select players because of hard criteria, and I could explain that to also to the guys who weren't nominated. But at some stage, it's just no longer possible, in my eyes, to tell a player why he's not on the team and then come up with stuff like, okay, and you're not. I don't know. They all fit. They all contribute. It's, I don't know. I couldn't differentiate. Okay, there's some hard criteria. It's easy. I couldn't do it. There were no longer any criterias to do that now, because he was the better runner, he's the faster guys, it just wasn't there.[PB8]
Alan McConnell 41:34
So sometimes it's intuitive or gut reaction. You've got all your facts but, but there's a subjective decision to be made exactly.
Markus Weise 41:41
It's not just Yeah, yeah, you would like to nominate just based on facts, okay, on our criteria, and it, it kind of evaporates into nothing for the last two or three sports, or maybe it's just one or two sports or the last sport. And if there are no hard facts, I think you should listen to your intuition, because if I don't know, I can't really explain that just by looking at ABC, why B does feel better than a or c, but if it Does, I'm gonna go B.
Alan McConnell 42:21
I'm talking of honest advice rather than BS, when or if your daughter's ever came to you for advice about leading, what would you tell them?
Markus Weise 42:34
So simple questions are hard to answer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if, if, if you're trying to lead someone, um, it's not good enough to just tell them again, people have a have a good feeling of, is that guy? Um, is he or she? Is he really a good leader? And sometimes he, he also can't explain why people feel comfortable being led by some someone. I think the the most important thing is to create clarity. Um, if you want to be a good leader, we need to talk about assumptions. We need to clarify expectations for players is it's extremely export important that they know what the koji is expecting from them. And on the on the other side, I I want to know what the players expect from me, and my experience is, in hindsight, I would say I haven't done it. I haven't done that sort of talk enough. Also checking our assumptions is something of value. I assumed I had on the men's team. I had a player with 250 cars, for instance, and I wouldn't talk in a one on one situation with him, because I assumed he wouldn't be interested. He he was two he was two time World Cup winner. He was an Olympian, already a gold medalist, and for him, it was just all routine. But he told me, please talk to me. I want to know what you think. And I assumed he wouldn't care. So that was a crucial lesson for me. So it's about clarity. Then it's about, I mean, leading is you have to not run around in circles. You have to work in loops. I think so. Clarity is the first step. Then it's about analyzing what you do in in a sports context. I mean, the the game writes your training, or should write your training. I could fill my two hours of training with some spectacular rondos of head Guardiola, for example. Okay, that's also some sort of training. But is it connected to my world of of of. Shocking question mark, and so I need to have a clear notion of what to achieve on the pitch. Then something's happening on the pitch. That's my analysis, and it should go into training. So how effective has every single player been on the field? How effective have we been on the pitch as a team that goes into the next training sessions, and then you try to evolve on what you found in practice. You establish that sort of stuff in your next training sessions. You try to grow. If you do it properly, you've got this upward spiral so loop after loop after loop. And you perform slightly, sometimes faster, sometimes it's nothing's happening at all, so you get stuck, but that's normal, but I think so working in loops is a good idea to become a leader when people accept what you do, and if as soon as you lose that acceptance, you're no longer leading, you're doing job, but people will have difficulties to follow you.
Alan McConnell 46:08
I love that idea of leadership is trying to create virtuous cycles. I'll pass you over to Paul, but
Paul Barnett 46:16
that maybe one simple question to finish with, Marcus, I'm tempted to, I feel like we've put you through the ringer today, and it's only early morning over there in Hamburg, but I'd really love to know, I know you're still coaching, but I'd really love to know what you think is the legacy you've left behind so far as a Coach.
Markus Weise 46:38
Oh my god. Great word, legacy. I can, I can, I can, from here, from my desk, I can see book called Legacy. It's about the whole place. It's a wonderful book. We've interviewed Jane, yeah, right guy, yeah, it's, it's just great to to study that sort of thing. I don't know. I've never, really, I've never given any thought about my legacy, and I've no answer to that. And to me, it's also I don't think it's super important what some people would say in about 10 or 50 years, if they say anything at all about myself and my legacy, I don't. I'd rather talk about the legacy of my teens and not the legacy of myself. I, I don't view myself as such an important part in these campaigns. I I'm a team. I'm a team guy, and I just did my job. So talking about legacy, it will be a question for the teams and not not a question for me.
Paul Barnett 47:39
So many times I hear great coaches give that answer. I think there's probably if I was to challenge you, I think there's probably something in there about the way that you you look at relationships, and the speed with which you mine for conflict and help resolve that conflict, but, but I've only met you today, so I shouldn't be so poor is suggesting that. But Marcus, thank you so much for your time today. It's been tremendous getting to know a little bit about your history and the amazing journey you've been on from an amateur coach through to a three time gold medal winning coach. It's a tremendous story, and we appreciate you taking the time to share a bit.
Markus Weise 48:17
Thanks very much for the invitation.
Alan McConnell 48:22
Thank you, Marcus, I've been on it. It's been really interesting. Loved it. Thank you. Bye.