Matt Thornton edit
Fri, Aug 11, 2023 6:42PM • 49:20
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, talk, coaches, martial arts, aliveness, gym, book, years, brazilian jujitsu, learn, violence, mat, happen, training, person, repeat, jujitsu, combat sport, fight, portland
SPEAKERS
Matt Thornton, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Matt Thornton. Good morning, my time. Good afternoon, yours.
Matt Thornton 00:04
Good afternoon. Thanks for having me on. Yeah.
Paul Barnett 00:05
Well, welcome to the great coaches podcast. We're very happy to have you here. Matt, can I start with something really simple? Could you tell me where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Matt Thornton 00:16
Sure. I'm in Portland, Oregon. So west coast, the United States, kind of at the very top of the state of Oregon, between Oregon and Washington. Been here for 30 something years, I started a gym here about 30 years ago called straight blast gym. And that kind of spread to different locations around the world over time. And then most recently, I wrote a book. So behind me here, the gift of violence, and yeah, so I've been talking to people and talking about the book primarily over the last couple months.
Paul Barnett 00:49
But we're gonna get into the book, we're gonna get into the gyms, we're gonna get into your background, and we're going to explore all the many avenues that's taken you along the way. But I wanted to start actually with a quote. And you say, all combat sports, when done properly teach you to see puzzles instead of roadblocks. Every puzzle has a solution. And the job of a great coach is to help the athlete find it. It was an intriguing quote, and I wanted to ask you straight up, can you tell us about the great coaches you have known, and how they go about helping people solve these puzzles?
Matt Thornton 01:25
Your boy I've had, I've had the privilege of knowing a ton of great coaches in my life. We have a number of fantastic world class coaches in the organization. So of course, there's John Kavanagh, who runs SPG, Ireland, and most well known recently, probably for Conor McGregor success, but we also have Adam and Ray singer, Chris Connolly. I mean, I could list 100, fantastic coaches.
What do I think they have in common? I think the main thing any good coach has in common is the interest of the athlete. I mean, the goodwill and interest of the athlete, they're there. They're in that building, they're in that training environment, they're in that place at that moment to help that person get better. And nothing else really exists in the world at that moment, except you and the athlete that you're trying to help improve. The quote really just speaks to combat sports in general. Another way of saying it from a different angle would be one of the things I tell my athletes is frustration in the moment is almost always a useless emotion. So you run into a problem in a fight, or you run into a problem in a match. That's something that we're here to solve. That's a puzzle that will admit to a solution. And our job is to try and find that solution, not a roadblock, not something to get frustrated over and not something to certainly stop the journey over. [PB1]
But it's the way forward and and jujitsu in particular Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a martial art kind of teaches that to people because no matter how bad a position you find yourself in, or how how crushed you're getting, or how pinned you feel you are, there is invariably always a technical solution that you can find to that problem, a mechanical solution that will admit to best practices that will allow you to escape, or at least just survive. And so you learn to become comfortable in uncomfortable situations, over and over and over again. And then you learn ultimately, after you learn to become comfortable, you learn to start to overcome those situations. And hopefully, you can apply those lessons to other areas of your life. But I do think they become self evident on the jujitsu mat, which is one of the great things about the sport.[PB2]
His belief that quote frustration in the moment is almost always a useless emotion. So you run into a problem in a fight, or you run into a problem in a match. That's something that we're here to solve. That's a puzzle that will admit to a solution.enquote
How Brazilian Ju Jitsu teaches you that no matter how uncomfortable the situation you find yourself in, there is a technical solution to the problem. And the lesson you learn in applying this is applicable in all aspects of life.
Paul Barnett 03:38
I want to talk to you a little bit about the lessons that can come from failure. But I'd like to go on a bit of a journey that can that can take us there actually met I want to talk a little bit about the book, it's called the gift of violence, which is a it's a really grabbing heading, it really caught my attention, you know, when I saw it there, because it's not a not a term you hear often bit. In the, in the first few pages, you have this quote and you say, I have long come to realize that freedom from manipulation and exploitation by physical means is a gift. And it's available to everyone who is willing to work and learn for it. Was there a moment or an event that helped you form this realization?
Matt Thornton 04:23
I don't know if there was one particular moment that I can immediately that immediately comes to mind. But you know, I've been on this path.
This has been my only job teaching combat athletics has been my only job for 30 years. And I think it's been a growing realization over the decades. As you know, one of the other things I'll talk about there is one of the goals we have for the organization is to make good people more dangerous to bad people. And interpersonal violence, which is the kind of violence I'm talking about in the book. kills about four times as many people every year as all the wars combined. And so that's crime and how Massage and things like that. And the only practical solution to that problem, not not cultural solution, but individual solution is to make yourself more dangerous to make yourself a harder target to make yourself somebody that predators aren't going to want to pick. And the process of doing that, when it's done well, not just, I think the thing that I started to learn over time, and I think some, something the other coaches started to see as well. It doesn't only just, it doesn't just make good people more dangerous to bad people, it can also make better people. Because you're having to go through these trials and these tribulations in this training and finding yourself in these uncomfortable situations and a relationship with another human being a physical relationship that you have to have, you have to lose over and over again. And I mean, you can't acquire any meaningful skill, for example, in Brazilian jujitsu without tapping, submitting 1000s of times, I mean, it's just part of the process. If you're unwilling to put yourself through that process, you're unwilling to lose that skill level is unattainable to you. And so in that sense, failures is not just okay, it's actually an essential part of the the whole system. And I think doing that over and over again, especially if you're doing it in a community that has a lot of mature people in it, that are there for the right reasons I think doing that can dramatically affect people in a positive way. [PB3]
The idea that you cant acquire meaningful skill in Brazilian Ju Jitsu without submitting 1000’s of times. And through this approach to testing and learning through failure you achieve progress
.
You know, I've seen all kinds of, I've seen autistic kids come in that couldn't even look someone in the eye or talk to him. And then a year or two later from doing jujitsu, not from therapy, or me talking to them, or any conversations necessarily, per se I have with them as a coach, but just the process itself, of what happens on the mat. Within a year or two of that. They're like a different person. And oftentimes, they're teaching classes, and they're, they're looking people in the eye and are having conversations and their life has changed for the better. And so I've seen that enough over the last three decades to, to realize as possible, and also probably slowly, but eventually realize that that's also kind of the point behind what we do.
Paul Barnett 07:10
I think this idea of tapping out and learning 1000s of times in order to master a skill, it's a very, it's a great analogy for life. But Matt, there's another aspect of your story that I find fascinating as a parent of two daughters. Your childhood was quite violent. The way you describe it in the book to me sounded violent, and yet at the same time, your father was a police officer. Yeah. And your mother, the way you describe her, too, she had very deep faith in religion. And all of these pillars have come together to shape your view on combat, and I find that absolutely fascinating.
Matt Thornton 07:49
Yeah. Yeah, just to be clear, I don't I didn't have that rough of a childhood. I don't want to give that impression. There are people who have really brutal, really violent childhoods mine, my childhood was not that I think I actually had a really good childhood. But for the purposes of the book, you know, I'm intentionally talking about my interactions with violence. And so that becomes the, the main thing you end up reading about. And I'm also specifically targeting a period when I went through puberty and started go through junior high school, and I was in that like, 13 to 15 year old age, which is a real tough age for a lot of kids and young man. And that's oftentimes when a lot of violent behavior starts to, to come into play, and it certainly did for me, so I was definitely I definitely had a couple of years of the delinquent for sure. And I had my run ins with violence, but my the only stories I tell about, about violence and, and fights and things like that they're in the book for a very specific reason. They're there to illustrate a point or something that I'm trying to talk about.
Paul Barnett 08:55
Matt, you have this idea of aliveness, it's at the central theme. Once we move beyond those early Junior High examples of run ins with some of the school bullies, you start to get this idea of aliveness and it starts to permeate your life and it becomes the impetus I think you'd have set up your first gym. Yeah, could you just unpack this philosophy and explain it and what has influenced you so much?
Matt Thornton 09:18
Absolutely. Yeah. So that was the that is the organizing principle behind straight blast gym. And that is of all the different coaches and the people that that found themselves you know, connected with me whether it was Kevin on Ireland or call in the UK or any of these other humans came to me I think the main reason was the aliveness. So it was what I was talking about with aliveness. And what it is really simply is because of how I grew up and just because the way whatever reason the way my mind works, what I've always been interested in when it comes to martial arts as what works and what doesn't work in a fight, you know, the the mystical kind of cultural affectations that go along with it, were never really of interest to me. I want to know what works. And so when I took up martial arts, I took it up for that very specific purpose. And I was intentionally moving myself towards the arts that I felt would be more functional. And along the way, I had two questions that I think a lot of people have, which is, why some martial arts work in fights and why some don't. And for people who are watching this, who may not know much about martial arts, I mean, I'll just state very bluntly, the vast majority of martial arts are bullshit. And they don't work in fights, they're dead patterns. And the martial arts that do work in fights. One of the things I noticed is one of the things they all have in common is their sports. So the arts for example, that you'll see in the UFC, you're gonna see boxing, and Muay Thai and wrestling and Brazilian Jujitsu, and maybe some Judo or sompo are these different functional arts. That is the thing they all have in common. They're all they all have a sporting aspect to it. And because their sports, people cared about results, and when people care about results, they turn to the opponent process and they turn to meritocracy, they turn to a system where failure is involved. And that's just it is, in all intents and purposes, it's the scientific process applied as, as it's meant to be done. When science has done well apply to hand to hand combat, right. So you have repeated experiments over and over again. And you you learn from those experiments, and then you adapt best practices. [PB4]
His core philosophy of Alivesness, which emphasizes training on timing, energy and motion through competing to deliver repeated experiments.
And so trying to explain that I could write an essay about it, I could talk about each individual sport, I could talk about athletic training in general. But what I did was I realized that just one word that encapsulates all that, which is aliveness, and aliveness is timing, energy, and motion. And if one of those aspects are missing, then what you're going to be doing is going to be functional, won't have any timing, you won't be getting timing from it. And I talked about this a lot in the book, but the analogy I use, is teaching my daughter badminton. And so you know, I loved the ball at her very slowly, and she swings and she misses and then I do it again, slower, maybe she swings, and she misses when we repeat this process, eventually she hits it, then after she hits it a few times successfully, I start to back up, start to speed it up. It's a very simple process. But you know, that's how I teach her badminton. Compare that to the way a lot of traditional martial arts were and they would have some memorized form that she would have to repeat. And I would, I would start criticizing the way her fingers are pointed in her toes. And we would talk about our chief blow and just a whole bunch of nonsense, and basically dead patterns. And in person, X responds with mu y, and then you counter with movement Z, and there's no timing. It's just a repetition of a dead pattern. It's memorization. And everything that's going to work in a fight requires timing, the difference between a really good black belt in Brazilian Jujitsu, and maybe a purple belt isn't necessarily knowledge of technique. But it's timing. It's the blackbelts ability to apply that technique. And you can only get that timing through live training. So by explaining to people what aliveness was, and what aliveness was not. And once and having someone really understand the concept when they do, then I feel like it's impossible for them to ever get bullshitted BY FAKE martial arts. So it's kind of like a foolproof bullshit detector system for martial arts. That I think, you know, you can apply to other aspects of life as well, to find out what works and what doesn't work. And, and the term I use for it is aliveness. And that became fairly popular because what I was stating what I feel like I often do in my career over the last 30 years, is trafficking in the obvious and lots of people understood that lots of people felt that lots of people notice that. Very few people said it publicly, or wanted to articulate it for a lot of different reasons of not wanting to criticize the system or whatever. And so because I, I was the first one to talk about it, and to say it in a way that made sense. A lot of people listen to that I go, you know, that's right, that makes sense. I want to train with this person. And that's how the organization grew. But to this day, it is the overriding principle behind everything we do it me, it ensures that everything we do is based in truth, which to me is really important. And then everything else flows from that. And some gyms will have professional MMA teams and some gyms will just work primarily with law enforcement and some gyms will maybe be focused just on hobbyists and self defense but what we the one thing we all have in common is that training the liveness
Paul Barnett 14:48
mat when you talk about a live training in the book, you say and this is a quote you say, a live training and respect for other human beings and yourself and never mutually exclusive things Hmm, what I wanted to ask you was, is there ever a risk, that excess competitiveness can misplace this respect for others?
Matt Thornton 15:10
Sure, they are never mutually exclusive. And I talked about this a little bit in the book, but one of the few criticisms that traditional martial artists will make, that are worth paying any attention to is, well, you know, all they're care, all those guys care about is what works in a fight or what doesn't work in a fight. And they're lacking, you know, the respect and honor and all the other things you learned from martial arts, and my experience has actually been the opposite. So when I travel around to different MMA gyms, different Brazilian Jujitsu, schools, even ones that aren't part of my organization, are just regular facilities. There's good people, and there's bad people, and there's gonna be people there that you you may not like, but overall, the community as a whole is filled with a lot of really good people. And to the point where I think's an outsider who came and and had the same experience, I did and visited the different gyms and I've had friends who have done this, one of my friends is a philosophy professor who's recently been traveling around the world. And everywhere he goes, now he travels to a different he goes to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school, because now and, you know, there's a school everywhere, every part of the world. And, and he always, you know, messages me, and he talks about how awesome everyone was, was to him how everybody, you know, treated him so well, what a wonderful experience it was. And so there's something about training in a way that's real. And part of that, as I think I already touched on is having to, it requires a kind of personality who's going to be okay with failing over and over again. And that in and of itself requires a kind of humility that can't be faked any more than you can fake being able to speak Spanish. And so it it attracts a certain type of person. [PB5]
And I've had the opposite experience in many ways. When I visited or spent time around, what I'll call fantasy based martial arts, excuse me, because what happens is, you'll get people who get interested in that martial art, maybe because they got bullied as a kid, or they're insecure or scared, whatever. They wind up training in something that's not real. Every practices have some form of make believe it's some form of choreography, for example, Aikido, where you're never really throwing anybody, the other person's just taking a fall for you. And somewhere deep down, you have to know that that's the case. Maybe some people don't every once awhile, you'll see somebody who truly is delusional, and they're the ones that will usually try and enter into an MMA fight one time or something, and they realize, Oh, my God, I have no idea what I'm doing. But by and large, I think a lot of these people are smart, and deep down, they know what they're doing doesn't work. And so what happens is they wind up defending a position that's based in a lie. And, and it takes people who are maybe kind of scared and insecure and makes them scared and insecure dicks, right? It just makes them worse. You know, and if you took that same person and you put them into any combat athletic facility, a judo club, a boxing club, a wrestling club, whatever, it doesn't have to be Brazilian Jujitsu, but just somewhere where what you're doing is going to be real. Assuming I stick with it, because the first year or two you do any of those arts you're gonna get beat up in the first year or two you do boxing, you're gonna get hit a lot. First Year Two you do judo, you're gonna get thrown on your butt all the time. And you're gonna go through the wringer. Assuming they're willing to put themselves through that, I will guarantee you that when you go and meet that person a year or two or three years later, they're going to be a better human. You know, they're going to have worked through some of those issues. And that just has to do with practicing something that's based in truth
The humility that is required to learn Brazilian Ju Jitsu through failure means that the people who practice it has a strong sense of respect and honour.
Paul Barnett 18:55
matters. Another quote that I think you talk about practicing in truth, you talk about humility. you've referenced it a couple of times already in this interview. And I want to, I want to pick up on this idea of being able to learn and being coachable. Because there's a another great quote in the book where you say anyone coachable can become a fighter there, but you use quotes around that word fighter. Tough isn't how you are born, to have you say you perform, and how you perform is a result of scientific training, not simply a genetic throw of the dice. And I think this is an idea that you talk a lot about through learning through failure as well. It's an idea I think, that resonates very strongly with me as a parent, but also someone who's in the workplace, trying to encourage others to experiment, innovate and learn and not be afraid of failure. And what I wanted to ask you from your travels across the world and all of the gyms that you're associated with, what have you learned about being coachable? What can we all do to be better at it?
Matt Thornton 19:55
Good question. Just to give a little bit of background on that particular A quote, because I think it'll help explain it a little bit better. Before I really, and I talked about this history in the book a little bit, but before I really went full bore into Brazilian Jujitsu, right about the time that I discovered Brazilian Jujitsu, I was an instructor in an art called GQ no concepts. And it's a it's a one of the weirder martial arts in the sense that they will do things that are functional, they'll do boxing and, and kickboxing and things like that. And at the time, I was boxing at a boxing gym every day. And then there'll be other aspects to it that are just complete nonsense. And I would hear the instructors talk in to the group to the students one way, and in behind closed doors, I would hear him talk differently. And it was, and that really bothered me. And it was a duplicity about the whole thing. And one of the things they would say consistently, and I heard it time and time again was Well, some people are fighters, and some people aren't. And that was their way of excusing the fact that what they were teaching didn't work. So every once awhile, you'd have somebody tough that would come in that would focus more on the boxing and stuff, that would be the fighter, and then you have all these other people come in, and you're teaching them things that aren't ever going to work in a fight. And then you're, you're making up an excuse for it by saying, Well, some people are just born fighters, and some people aren't. And my experience, that that really bothered me.
But also it goes against everything that I've ever seen, nobody is born a fighter. There are people who were born more gifted athletically, for sure, or in terms of temperament and things like that. And not everybody can go in and become a champion in a cage anymore, anybody can go on and become a professional NBA player, or professional football player. But everybody can play the game. And everybody can learn to fight. I've never met a single person on this planet, who could not learn to fight, assuming as, as I mentioned, in that code, quote, that they're coachable. And so that's, that's what that is about, I think, you know, if you walk into my school, or any of the other gyms, or any really any functional combat Athletic Club, every person on that map that's been there for a while, is going to have some measure of skill, whether they're 65 year old woman or an eight year old kid, I mean, I have the full age range here at my gym. So it's certainly doable. Now, as far as what being coachable means there's a certain amount of trust you have to have between the coach and the student. And obviously, you have to trust that your coach has your best interest at heart, and you have to trust in the material, and you have to believe in the art. And in an in an art like Brazilian Jujitsu, that's pretty easy to do, because you're going to be in a room and you're going to see I mean, it's you'll see people who are capable of executing the art at that higher level. And you will realize that if you stay with it and train long enough, that could be you. And and so you have these role models in the gym that you as true evidence. So it helps you believe in the system. And once you have those ingredients down, really, it's just a question of listening to your coach and not repeating the same mistakes. [PB6]
How anyone can learn to fight as long as they coachable but the speed with which you learn will be influenced by your ego.
So what will happen? Like my experience of teaching Brazilian jujitsu over the last few decades is that women learned a lot faster than men. Put it that way. And I've seen, you know, a high level of skill in Brazilian Jujitsu, you're awarded your black belt, which for most people takes 12 to 15 years to get assuming they're training several days a week. Someone that gets it in eight or nine years is doing really well. I've had a few that I've seen attain that level in five or six years. And when I say that I'm not talking about the belt, the belt is just a symbol of a tangible skill. Like I said earlier, you can't fake any more than you could fake being able to play an instrument. So they achieved this level of skill. A provable level of skill because they could compete in that division and do well, within five or six years. It's very rare, but it happens. But I've seen it happen a lot more with women than men. And the reason is, when I'm usually when I'm coaching female athletes, I will see them, perhaps make a mistake on the mat or do something that will eventually lead to bigger problems. And I want to help help adjust that habit. And that's kind of what you're always doing is you're helping them develop different habits. And I'll explain that to them. It'll make sense. And maybe they'll ask me for some clarification, wire this or that so that they understand it better, which I appreciate because I think it's really important that everybody understands how the art works, not just repeating it, but you have to once you understand your mind how it actually works, you can problem solve a lot faster. So I will engage in that conversation with him. And then once it makes sense to him after a minute or whatever talking. They don't repeat that mistake anymore. They'll go back on the mat. They'll repeat a different mistake, which is the whole point. So you're finding another mistake. They can find it, you're moving on to the next layer of failure. And that's how you work your way up. What happens sometimes with men, is they'll do the same thing, especially some of the stronger, more athletic guys. But that, let's say that particular mistake or habit that they have, sometimes works when they're rolling with another person in the gym. And if they care more about beating their training partner in the gym, than they do learning jujitsu, which I think happens, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but in generalizing, I think is more common for men than it is for women. I think women are more interested in getting good at jujitsu and less interested in beating our training partners in the gym. And sometimes men are too interested in beating their training partners and not not as interested as they should be in getting good at the art. And because of that, when I'm not looking or when you know, I'm not around, they will go ahead and repeat that error, because it works for him at that moment. And the more somebody has a tendency to do that, the, the longer their learning curve is going to be. And, and sometimes, you know, they'll even hit kind of a glass ceiling that they won't be able to get past. And it's just their own inability to let go of certain old habits that they had. So being coachable is not repeating the same mistakes over and over again. And when you have your coach or your mentor, whoever it is be able to point out a mistake that you're making and explain to you why that's mistaken, it makes sense to you, then your job as an athlete has to go out and try not to repeat that mistake, so that we can move on to the next thing. And the faster you are at that the faster you get better. And that's a skill, like anything else that can be trained, and some people do a little naturally better than others. And a lot of it has to do with ego. But that's that would definitely be what I would put at the top of my list as far as being coachable.
Paul Barnett 26:56
It's interesting hearing you talk about the difference between men and women, because in the book, you also talk about boys speak. Yeah, I thought this was the bravado that many fighters just showed before the thought I thought it was all part of the theater of combat sports, but but you have a very different view on this idea of boy speak.
Matt Thornton 27:14
Yeah, well, I'm not. Just to be too clear, when I'm when I talk about boys speak in general, I'm not talking about professional fighters. With professional fighters, it's different because that is their job. If you're a professional fighter, your job is to put butts in seats. And to get people to pay for pay per view, that's your job, you don't get paid to be a great fighter being a great fighter is what they think they get paid for. And it's so important. And you have to be a great fighter, you won't be at that level. Really, what you're getting paid for is having people want to come see you whether that's because they hate you, or they love you, you're getting paid to sell tickets. And so that kind of bravado that, you know, you would see Muhammad Ali, kind of, in many ways, personified. And Connor, is a master at it that's in, that's part of their job. When I talk about boys speak, I'm talking about something a little bit different. I'm talking about tendency that a lot of young men have even grown men to pretend to have knowledge when it comes to violence. And there's a lot of different reasons why men will pretend to have knowledge when it comes to violence, some of them are related to reproduction, access to women. There's a lot of reasons why men would want other people to think that they're capable, when it comes to violence. And so there's a bravado that starts to come out. That is one of the the first signs that the person doesn't actually have any knowledge of what they're doing when it comes to violence. And, and that's what I mean by boy speak is it's kind of adolescent, it's, you know, talking about what you would do in a particular situation, or how you know, how violent you are this or this or that, and the more someone trains in a combat sport, the less likely they are to do that. The less likely they would be to have a conversation like that, just just like it is with soldiers. And the more the more someone has actually been in war seen situations like that, the less likely they're going to be to come home to the bar and start bragging about what they did or did not do on the battlefield. And that's kind of what I was referring to. And it's it's a it's an indication of immaturity, and immaturity in my, in, in my opinion, and this is one of the bigger points of the book as well lies at the heart of most problematic violence. And envoys speak is definitely a tell when it comes to immaturity.
Paul Barnett 29:48
That is a there's a small sentence in the book where you talk about only a small part. You talk about your first Brazilian jujitsu lesson with Fabio Santos and you say he said to you, he said relaxed. jujitsu is about learning when to use energy and when to rest. And that takes time, just a small sentence. But a lot of leaders, a lot of people, a lot of parents on this really hard to do. And I'm wondering how you've applied this idea to your life as a parent and a successful business owner?
Matt Thornton 30:19
Yeah, I remember that. That was more than 30 years ago. And I remember that moment clearly today. And it's the type of thing that I, I've repeated, every other jujitsu instructor on planet Earth is repeated to their students over and over and over again. And it is definitely one of the single hardest things to do. There's no way around it, you can't like if you have someone who's on the mat, and we're talking about just the physical martial arts aspect of it for a minute, who's really tense and stiff and having a hard time. It doesn't help to stand over him yelling, yelling at them to relax, right? So it's almost one of those things that people have to start to experience it's best like as it is, with parenting, or managing people or anything else, it's the kind of thing you have to model yourself. Like, if you're not modeling that in your own behavior, then it probably won't matter what you say or don't say. But if you can get on the mat and model that kind of relaxed, performance yourself and still be able to be able to pull it off, be able to do the art, then you serve as a living example as to what can be achieved by relaxing and jujitsu really is I don't say that for any, you know, hippy, spiritual reason, when we tell people to relax, when they're training Jiu Jitsu, it's because you're going to be better, you're going to be more dangerous, you're going to be you're going to respond faster, you're going to be able to feel your opponent's energy better, you're going to be able to move better, everything is better when you're more relaxed you are. [PB7]
How being relaxed allows you to respond faster, feel your opponents energy better, and move better and as a result you will be more dangerous. But that it takes years to learn to relax to the extent and as a coach you cant get frustrated with this.
But the truth is that for most people, myself included just about everybody else, the only way to get that down is by flight time. So you just got to go back on the mat over and over and over, over again. And yes, definitely, I've got five kids and other one on the way. And that's one of those things, one of those big lessons in life that can translate everywhere. And just like with jujitsu, I think it's one of those things that most of us just wind up having to learn through doing over and over again, and, and if we want to pass that information on to other people, I think it's best done just by modeling it. I mean, I do explain it, I'll explain it in class, I'll explain this to students that this isn't a goal. This is what you're trying to achieve. And if they start to get too out of control, both for the safety, and to help them get better than I might intervene and tell them to relax and calm down. But reality is it's, you know, you got to go in, you're gonna get so frustrated, as a coach, if you if you don't understand that you you're going to have people that are going to take years to learn how to relax. And you got to be okay with that too.
Paul Barnett 32:51
Matt, one of the great MMA coaches, Chris How to says it's a quote about you, he says, Matt Thornton is among the best coaches and innovative thinkers currently bound to Earth. A nice thing for one person to say to another, but I wanted to ask you about innovative thinking, because your life has taken you on a journey towards more philosophy as you've moved along. And I wanted to ask you when it comes to innovative thinking, how can we all do more of it? And do it better?
Matt Thornton 33:23
That's a great question, too. I talk a little bit about this in the book in the second chapter, I put a second, the second chapter in the book is about truth. And it's basically just a lesson and epistemology, which I feel is very important. And like anything else, when it's not the answers that we come to, it's how we arrive at those answers. That's the big point behind science, that's the big point behind a practical functional epistemology, that's gonna get you closer to reality instead of further away from it closer to our goals rather than further away from it.
So how you arrive at your conclusions becomes much more important than the conclusions that you hold. And so one of the things I would constantly do is I would search back in my own thinking in my own brain and my own ideas, and I would question my beliefs of what I think is true and not true. And above all else, I would question how I arrived at those beliefs. And so you always have to be open to revising your beliefs in light of new evidence. And that always has to be the case but constantly rethinking how you how you come to these conclusions, I think is very helpful because I think it is the method you use to arrive at conclusions that spawns that sort of innovative thinking. And the more time you put in to understanding your own internal epistemology and and what you're doing to to arrive at a particular point. The faster you can innovate if that makes sounds[PB8]
Paul Barnett 35:00
bad. Is there an example? You talked about the five kids and the six on the way? Is there an example where you've perhaps worked with one of the kids to say, let's think about how we arrived at this conclusion rather than the conclusion itself? Could you want an example you could share?
Matt Thornton 35:16
I'll give you a good example. And get a little political here for a minute. But one of the things that's happened in my city is Portland, I've lived here for 30 years, and it's a beaut, I've had the opportunity to travel all over the world. And I've been to most of the bigger American cities and I've always enjoyed coming home to Portland, it's, it's pretty it's many ways reminded me of San Francisco, but it was much smaller and didn't have that kind of crime was always very safe. You could walk around downtown Portland at three in the morning, and never be worried about it or want to be armed. Now, it's very different. So, since the death of George Floyd, this has happened all over the United States, but in particular, in Portland, certain reforms have been put through that have caused violence in in shootings to triple so the last two years, we've had more shootings on record here in Portland, than ever in our history homicides of double downtown is not a place where you would want to go and walk around, especially if you weren't armed. The police are grossly underfunded and understaffed. They don't have time to respond to most of the things they're going from 1911 Call to another 911 call, they're totally demoralized. Their training budget has been cut. So everything becomes more dangerous for the suspect and for the police. And, and all crime is through the roof. I think we have I think we might even be number one as far as stolen cars here in Portland. So you've gone from 2017 2018 where it was pretty beautiful, to now just a few years later, where I would definitely tell you if you were coming to visit, not to go downtown, certainly not at night, and to be careful. And just two days ago, we had a shooting around the corner from my house where there was 100 rounds expended and two people were shot. And that's normal weekend now important. So how did we How did this happen? wasn't an accident. It didn't happen because of COVID. It didn't happen because the lockdowns crime are amongst the rest of the world and should have happened here should have gone down during lock downs. When people are locked in doors, you have less crime. That's why crime is always higher, especially street crime in the summertime when people outside gathered around. And and yet the opposite happened. And it was the direct result of certain policies that were put through political policies that were put through by the population. And and and until they connect the dots between that particular policy and the result of what that policy is created. It's unfixable because they'll just continue to double down. And that on the, on the same policy, when I talk to them, when I talk to people like that. A lot of times what they will talk to me about is what their goal is how they feel what they want to have happen, it's kind of emotional, they're not in other words are not evil, they're not coming from a bad place. What they want, is the same thing I want. But what they have not done is they have not sat sat down and thought about the consequences of that particular policy. They think about the goal. And so they're measuring what's happening based on the goal and not on the results. And as soon as you stop measuring, based on results, and you start just thinking about just the objective, you're lost. Now there's no connection between the policy and the outcome, they don't understand what's going on, and everything tends to get worse. And so that's that's a pretty, like, very practical example of where things in a very real way can go bad. And we'll probably have five or 6000 More homicides this year than we otherwise would have had pre summer of 2019 overall in the United States as a whole as a direct result of this kind of thinking. And so that's why I think it's it's the critical thinking and understanding this is so important. And whether whether we're talking about politics, whether we're talking about sports, whatever we're talking about, we need to be measuring our policies, we need to be measuring our our decisions based on the results, not on intentions, but on results. And then when we start to look at those results and see that we're moving further away from our goal rather than closer to it, then I think we need to go back and examine those policies and examine what you know, unintended consequences may have come as a result of them, so that we can change it. And as simple as That is I think a lot of people have a hard time doing it for various reasons. And the can have bad results.
Paul Barnett 40:11
You talked about critical thinking there, Matt, you're approaching another stage in your career where you lecture on philosophy these days. And in fact, the book is not a coaching book, it's not a memoir, it's really your philosophy about life and how we can all improve the quality of our life. But in your writing, you talk about philosophy as a verb. Truth in the sense of aligning as much as possible our beliefs and methods, with the actuality in the natural world. That's a an interesting idea. And I'm wondering if you could explain to us how you think this idea could help improve the lives of people?
Matt Thornton 40:50
Yeah, I think I think philosophy is something you do, and something that you engage in, and a certain level of introspection and thought, and, you know, the life will live quote, unquote, and, and thinking about how you going back to the epistemology, you know, how you arrived at your conclusions and, and constantly re examining your your beliefs, and remaining open to, to new evidence, I think, is the key to the whole thing. And yeah.
His challenge to examine how you arrive at your beliefs in order to unlock more innovative thinking.
Paul Barnett 41:26
So I can take you back now to that young man in junior high, I don't think he actually had the growth spurt yet. I'm not sure. I don't think because I know you're quite tall. I'm not sure how tall you are in junior high. But if I could take you back there to that boy that was getting bullied or experiencing some bullying, knowing what you know, now, what would you tell him?
Matt Thornton 41:46
I would have I would tell myself to immediately fight back, not in the way I did. So in the way I did the way I did. Basically, what happened was, you know, I went from one extreme to the other extreme, and was essentially feeling the same thing internally the whole time. But I went from fear to aggression, and discovered that aggression felt a lot better than fear, and also produce better outcomes socially among the people around me. But that doesn't mean it was the answer. It was just kind of like flipping the coin to the other side, which is what happened when I was young man, I don't think that's uncommon. I think that happens a lot. And I think I even mentioned in the book, you know, some people speculate they don't understand when one kid will, you know, shoot another kid or something like that will happen. And they, they find it very shocking, and don't understand how that kind of thing can happen. That kind of thing has never been a mystery to me, because I came very close to doing it myself. And I could see how, you know, any young man pushed to an extreme could have that happen. So I would go back, and I would try to explain to myself that that's not the answer. But you still have to stand your ground, and you still have to fight. And in those moments, as opposed to going back and hunting those kids down later, which is what essentially what I ended up doing, and then I probably could have stopped the whole cycle of violence much sooner than I did. And, and then I would have put myself into combat sport, I would have taken up wrestling or boxing or Judo or anything like that. I didn't start martial arts until after I left the military. And I would have definitely put myself into something more athletic and strenuous, at a much earlier age, to be able to work some of the stuff out
Paul Barnett 43:34
on the Gill, the Kenda, with which you've answered that question is also something that seeps through in the book, as well. But, Matt, one last question, if I could, and I'd like to preface it with a quote, and you say, but what matters to me? And what the conclusion I eventually came to, as I grew older, is that what matters to me about men and women who represent the organization is a shared set of values which we have, which have nothing to do with being belonging, or don't require that they belong to any particular religion or not to a religion.
Matt Thornton 44:08
Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. Speak organization, and I have a lot of friends and I have a lot of people I'm blessed in the sense that I have relationships with a lot of people that have lasted for decades, you know, and some of them are, I'm happy to be an atheist. Some of my friends are born again Christians. And none of that matters. Because at the end of the day, you know, our different opinions about how the nature of the universe started or whether or not there's a individual, personal God or not. Those kinds of things are just all speculation. And what matters is how you raise your kids, how you treat other people. What you feel is important and not important in your relationships and in how you manage life. And I've discovered, you know, I might have a lot more in common. I'm an atheist, but I might have a lot more in common with the, with a warning and Christian, as it relates to some of those values. You know how, what our responsibilities are as a man or as a father how you have to take care of your children, how you have to put your family first, all those kinds of things. So if you look at the all the people who I've been friends with for decades, there, some of them will be atheists, some of them will be religious, some of them might be Christian, some of them might be another denomination, some of them. They all come from very different backgrounds. Some of them have PhDs, we have quite a few highly educated people in the organization. Some of them might be construction workers who barely graduated high school. But at the end of the day, all those things don't matter. To me anyway, or I think, to them, what matters is the fact that we have those shared values. And you know, that's the kind of person that I would want to have around my family, and feel comfortable having around my kids. And that's so much more important than any of those other things. And you know, Brazilian jujitsu is cool that way too, because it is a pure meritocracy. And you walk into the gym on any given night, like tonight, I'll have a class here, when we when we get offline. Maybe I'll have 20 or 30 people there. There'll be a doctor on the mat, there'll be a construction worker on the mat will be a paramedic on the mat. There'll be somebody who's working retail, there'll be students who haven't gotten a job yet. It's like men, women, older, younger, all these different backgrounds and different socio economic places that they're coming from. Where else would all these different people come together like that, and I think one of the things that's happened in our society, especially recently is, there's really been a kind of sorting going on, where people from one socio economic background tend to only associate with people from that same socio economic background, go to the same schools bury the same people shop at the same stores, watch the same movies, read the same newspapers, and have the same information bubble. And people on the other side, different and they have their own information bubble. And the two bubbles don't really meet or understand each other. This has certainly happened in the United States where we have, I think we're more polarized than ever. And part of it is just the nature, the economic nature of how things have happened over the last few decades. But going back to what I was talking about on the mat, what a beautiful thing. But we have Democrats and Republicans and conservatives and liberals and PhDs and construction workers all sharing the map. And nobody cares. All they care about is being there and training and having a physical relation. When you're training in jujitsu, you have a physical relationship with another human being, you're putting yourself in a position where they could literally break your arm or choke you. So there's a level of trust, you have to be willing to put yourself in a vulnerable position with another human. And that requires a certain level of trust. And so you have this roomful of people, Molly's different backgrounds, trusting each other that way. And I think that's unique. And at the end of the day, I don't know what other word we can come up for it. But that's a shared set of values.
Paul Barnett 48:28
And that what do you hope is the legacy of the shared set of values?
Matt Thornton 48:34
Well, I hope, and I think it will, I think that the community is going to carry on long after me. And my kids and my, my, my, my students, kids, and my black belts, kids and their kids and so forth, you know, coming together and training because I really do think it's a really good thing for people. So I think it'll just continue
And wanting to leave a legacy of a community that continues on long after him because of his belief that it’s a really good thing for people.
Paul Barnett 49:00
maps on I hope it continues for you to Mediterr the books are fantastic read it challenges the way you think about life and yourself. Congratulations on the book and I wish you all the best for your journey as you continue going around the world spreading this message.
Matt Thornton 49:16
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.