Mike Dunlap Edit
Thu, Mar 23, 2023 4:29PM • 46:06
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaches, people, players, book, point, talking, leader, teacher, resilient, children, parent, mike, parenting, started, second grade teacher, australia, taught, day, mistake, joy
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Mike Dunlap
Paul Barnett 00:00
Mike Dunlap. Good morning, your time and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Mike Dunlap 00:04
Thank you for having me on and being patient with me, Paul. Thank you.
Paul Barnett 00:10
Patience is not a problem at all. Mike, I'm really excited to talk to you because you're in the thick of the NBA over there, but maybe something a little simple to get his going. Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Mike Dunlap 00:23
Well, in film, we played the Golden State Warriors last night, and we're fortunate enough to get them at home, they have not been playing well. They're two and 12 on the road. So they're trying to figure that aspect out. But they're always lurking because of their content, they have three Hall of Famers to play in front of and Thompson, green, and of course, curry. So all those guys will be inducted. And so and they're definitely not over the hill. So they've got they're on pace to try and win two more, in my opinion before injury and age, we'll take them away. But on our side of the street, we we are figuring out who we are this year, we've had some injuries and whatnot. Now those players are coming back into our team. And so we're just trying to work that out. But we're top three in the league right now a team of or a league of 30. And I would say that we're in the top four, and we'll be if luck shines kindly on us on the injury deal, but we're very good, our veterans know it. And it's a matter of positioning and taking care of precision and detail in order to try and make an assault on a championship again. Well,
Paul Barnett 01:36
I'm looking forward to talking to you a little bit about that championship in this interview. But, Mike, I'd like to start by name checking some pretty impressive coaches that you've either worked for, or worked with, or met and conversed with, there's George Karl is the Australian Brian gourgeon, I guess we can call him Australia, the great John Wooden, Pete Newell, and of course, the iconic Lindsey gaze. And I'm just wondering, Mike, from this experience working with these people up close, what does it you think the great coaches do differently, that sets them apart?
Mike Dunlap 02:10
Number one would be they're all competent, you can have a lot of flaws. And people will sidestep that. And players in particular will if they believe that you know your, your stuff, you have the set of skills and information that will make them better, and give you a chance at a championship. So that's number one,
too is their ability to connect viscerally, with a group and single players and players that are your best players. Their ability to communicate a similar message is a two way street empowerment. Coaches understanding that players are what make coaches and coaches can nudge and create an environment that all those people have a vision of what it's like to walk in on a typical day the the coach is not creating synthetic obstacles. But yet challenges there's a difference in a distinction. And those coaches make that distinction, and that we're doing things for purpose. And then three is that I think all those people are inspirational, whether they're coaches are there communicating somebody at the grocery store, there's an ick factor to them, which words really fall well short of describing. And it's how a person walks into a room. It's body language. It can be their silence, it can be a nod, but they all have a particular presence about them.[SB1]
Paul Barnett 03:39
Mike, According to ESPN, you're known as a and this is a quote a teacher of the game and meet his peers and colleagues in the NBA. And it caught my eye a little bit because I wanted to ask you, where does the role of teacher and coach not overlap?
Mike Dunlap 03:54
Well, I'm not sure that it does. That's a what I would call a golden dark throw by you of understanding that they're part and parcel to each other. The one distinction I would make is master teachers continue to learn and evolve and never think that they know enough. And so they're studying other great coaches. They're studying other great leaders. They're plucking from the best of the best to add to their arsenal, if you will, their craft. And you'll notice that older coaches get quieter. They're not verbose. They seem to move into a touch as opposed to a diatribe.
Paul Barnett 04:36
You say all the coaches get quieter? Why is that?
Mike Dunlap 04:40 (somewhere in here I interrupt)
Because wisdom and mastery has more to do with display and teaching through others or situations and again, drawing on them. The medium of the message is visual is the most powerful thing, words are second place, compared to x, there's a book out a wonderful book out called the inner game of tennis. And if you took one page off the inner game of tennis and threw the rest away, it was the instruction of having somebody at the baseline and showing a forehand. And instead of going through a, b, c, and creating this kind of roughness from the pupil, he just started to stroke the ball and said, do that. And that is the gateway to being a master teacher, very much. So is using your medium with less words and more visuals so that the pupil can have an aha moment. Oh, and it's kind of i see i do i see i do and then add repetition as Lord and Master[SB2]
Paul Barnett 05:53
my coffee. Did you talk a numerous times about the five laws of learning? You tell us how you apply them in your coaching?
Mike Dunlap 06:02
The simple thing is, is that any pupil in any classroom that walks in or a gymnasium, or paddock, or pitch, or what have you, they want to know, hey, what do you want me to do. And there was a very good book written by a guy named Novak that wrote the joy of sport. And it's a long encyclopedia kind of a book in the most wonderful way, story after story. But he talks about children going into a sandbox and no adults around. And within five minutes, the children create rules and a competition on their own. And they want boundaries. So when you go in, and the first laws, tell them what you want. Number two is show them what you want. Number three is have them show you what you told them. Number four is take the time to correct the demonstration. So that it is what you want. And number five is again is lord and master being repetition, but repetition has to be fun. And that means time and score dash competition. And it could be against yourself, it could be against another, it could be against another four, and it's four versus four. So repetition can mean drudgery to the modern day athlete, and but you can create an interest with them if you put a clock on it, and you put a score on it. And now the modern day athlete likes personal records. Okay, I did this today better than I did yesterday. So in basketball terms, you say, Okay, we're gonna shoot for 30 seconds from the free throw line, you got to follow it, you make it from the free throw line, you get two points, you follow it in, whether it's a miss from the free throw or not, you get a put back, and you'd get one shot at following your shot and put it in you got a point. And now you measure that in 30 seconds. Now they have a personal record. Now you're getting your repetition as an instructor, and in 30 seconds, they come back 10 days later, and you say the best record of all time was 13 points in that 30 seconds. Well, if you got blood coursing through your veins, you're going to want to get 14. And so getting back to the five laws is number one is tell them what you want.[SB3]
Paul Barnett 08:22
Mike, I have this great quote from you. And you actually alluded to it a minute ago, but I'd like to read the quote to you before I ask the question. You say the trail of successes is laden with touchstones of humility, sincerity, and being open to the fact that players make coaches. coaches don't make players. And it intrigued me a little bit because I wondered if coaches don't make players, then how would you describe the role of the coach
Mike Dunlap 08:49
role of the coach would be very simple. And Bill Walsh said this and finding the winning edge, a master teacher knows the outcome before she or he starts, the good teacher kinda knows the outcome. And so the distinction is when you start the journey is that by the end of the journey, that team the player is running the process. The coach is no longer running the process and you're fine with that freedom, that you have a use by date, if you will. And you're an orchestra leader. If you see that and you go to a symphony, you'll see that that the orchestra leader has a job, but the orchestra plays the music and he or she will lead in certain sections of that orchestra so that it's a thing of beauty. But after a while, the audience is not focused. It's like the orchestra leader becomes invisible. And that is the job of the coach and the leader is to move to your workers move to your team and And you don't have to be overt about it every day. But you know, you've been successful when player is teaching players, [SB4] [SB5]
there was a guy named Halberstam who is a Pulitzer Prize writer over here. He died several years ago in a car accident, Menlo, California, but nonetheless, is he took a year to study how Japanese business did it. And it was like the day it was called the next century or the 20th century or whatnot. 21st century the book was, and it was small. But one of the things he learned was as part of their culture was as that management had to go down on the assembly line on Fridays and work on the assembly line, eat lunch with the quote, unquote, base of the pyramid. And what they were doing was asking pregnant questions about how they could do it better and make a TV better. And those workers were able to show and give information to the leader that made it more efficient. And so back to your question, I think it's really important that an instructor or a teacher understand that they're not the be all end all, they're not the show. And there's a grace and a humility to that understanding. Some teachers, they let their ego get in the way, and they think they're everything. But as a parent, as a leader, your children are going to be your legacy. They're there everything in terms of other people evaluating if they're discipline, if they have manners, if they're go getters, etc, etc. And my point is, is that your workers, your players, and how they present themselves and compete, is everything. Going to
Paul Barnett 11:48
pick up on this idea of parenting, actually, and I have another quote from you, where you, you talk about parenting and coaching and leading together, I'll read you the quote that I'd like to ask the question, you say, you have to break the chain of what you were taught in order to be a better parent, coach or leader. Such an interesting idea. And I wanted to ask you, Mike, is there an example of a chain that you had to break in order to move yourself forward?
Mike Dunlap 12:15
Yeah, I mean, I was raised corporately. And if you did, well, then you didn't get, you know, a spanking. And if you acted up, then you knew that the belt was coming. I've never done that with our children, all of our children have their own careers ones. And in film, another is a surf instructor and running his own business down in Costa Rica. And my daughter works for a company out of Brisbane, LS k d, which does athletic clothing. But my point is, that doesn't mean that they're all that but I think it's really important that that as you're raised, you see what was myth, I think every parent carries a certain amount of myth from their parents. And some of it's really good, you know, the early bird gets the worm, so get your rear end out of bed early to start your day. But then there's other things that you could be really sick and say, stiff upper lip, and yet, you've got some lesions on your leg, or you go, okay, stiff upper lip, and you don't get it checked by a doctor. Well, your parents gave you that. And it's incumbent on you to go out and in this journey, and shatter some of the myth, because not everything that our parents gave us was correct. And so at some point in time, again, I have to take responsibility for myself for going and seeking information. So I become better than at least the information that I have at parenting. And so my wife and I did four years of classes, and they weren't expensive, and one of them was in Australia, and everybody that's over there, it's got to know it. If they look it up, I can't make it up. It's called Love and logic. And we took two semesters of that class and Adelaide, Australia, which was a carryover of going to parenting class. And I've said this at coaching academies and lectures and all this other stuff my entire career, I've learned more from parenting class than I ever did from John Wooden Pete No, all or or whomever, it's not close on human behavior, because human behavior starts out of the womb. And my point is, is that the parenting instructors have done, say, 900 of these classes, and they've studied human behavior. So if you have some dysfunction with a player and you see that he or she acts out in a way that is not congruent or fluid with your team, and you're trying to figure it out. Well, if you don't have an understanding of the star started in, say, when they were eight years old, nine years old example given, there's a fairness issue that comes out and a child at about four years old from four to seven. And that's not fair, that's not fair. Because that's their tool for not doing what they wanted to do, or, you know, they say, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored and the parent rushes in, and now they started juggling act, they're gonna find out that that's short term, the boredom rests with the child doesn't rest with the parent, and it's a matter, it's a matter of the parent having skills to remand the child back to themselves. Okay, now somebody is, you know, pleading at 27. That's not fair. That's not fair. And you hear that several times while your antennae must go up, and you say, Okay, maybe it started there. What are our solutions? So that you refer that back to the player? That one not, everything's fair, but to is, how are you going to handle that, and here's how we in a cooperative way, can create two or three solutions and let them pick the one solution, and then the kids follow through. So there are all these skills in your toolbox that come from parenting that lead to good coaching. So if a coach has a rule, or a leader has a rule, and he says, okay, that we will show up at the office at this time? Well, you better figure out what happens when somebody doesn't show up on time consequences for actions that make sense. And like I say, as sometimes when the bell was put to me, it made no sense whatsoever, because that's the only answer my parents had. And you know, that was their generation, there weren't 15 books out on parenting, they weren't classes in the 1950s, on parenting, there weren't. And so as we evolve, it's incumbent on us, again, to go get information and keep learning through books through other people, and empirically through our own mistakes. And through our own successes, if you want to be a lifelong learner, then figure that you're the stupidest person in the room every day, because it's when we think we know what we know that we get ourselves in trouble. We suspect we know things. And that's a good way to be. But the ego can get to a place where, you know, you're given trophies or ranks for championships. And then you figure that, you know, you'll go on a speaking circuit and say, Well, we do this and we do that. And whether it's, you know, the head coach of Arsenal, or it's Eddie Jones, or it's, it's Brian gourgeon Or it's John Wooden, or it's Pete No, they have a book of information and they have the successes, but I'm never sitting in front of them thinking that they know it all. You know, I'm after certain information, but I'm never going to give way to Anthony Robbins or whomever that they're, they're the be all end all. There are too many people that are willing to drink Kool Aid, when they hit Find somebody who has a lot of money and say, hey, well, you know, they made a lot of money. So they must be right. You know, what is somebody that makes a lot of money know about a dentist, what you know, but yet we'll go to him and ask him about a great dentists and where's the best restaurant? Where's this? And where's that and we'll kind of give way or cave in to somebody again, because I have a lot of money in the bank. But I think that like, for example, when I was in Denver, Colorado, I tried to find the best teacher in that city. And it was for my money, was a second grade teacher that was teaching my son and she was Colorado Teacher of the Year two years running. And I went in there and volunteered selfishly to do reading for protect once a week in that classroom, because my wife told me that the IQ of the child is the father's on site. And that that classroom, even a little bit that it jumps dramatically 30 to 40 points. And I wanted all of that to be that kind of father, but also selfishly I wanted to watch this teacher operate and Man oh man did she have skills, they came from the playground. And before they sat down, she had them grabbed the back of their chairs breathe three times lock in on a spot on the on the wall, she had all these beautiful colors and, and some of their writings and stuff like most of second grade classroom, and then she had them breathe, and then move and sit down. But she understood the power of breathing, of taking that activity and allowing the child to slow their heart rate down so that she when she was introducing whatever topic she was going to go into. That's transitional teaching where you're saying that people are dealing with transitions all the time. And so you have a business meeting somebody sitting across from you, and you can just see by the power of observation that they're unsettled. And you say something in an open ended question is a I noticed the button on your left side there is no button and I was wondering it today was a hell of a day for you. And now you probe a little bit with some questions on the human side before you get to maybe whatever your agenda was. And that's all coming from wanting to be an observer and writing notes from a second grade teacher, you know, and or when John Wooden is talking or Pete Newell, I always have a pat out, I've got one right next to me here. Because you may ask a question I don't have the answer to and I'm going to tell you very quickly, you know what, I haven't really thought of that I write it down. But I'm going to get back to you. Because I understand that you're going to think I'm full of it. If I don't follow through, that's the key to somebody who has trust and integrity. And that is the follow through. It could be the simplest thing. But a lot of people say they're going to do something but then they never do it. They don't follow through. And that's the key.
Paul Barnett 20:57
Mike, Could I follow up on this human behavior element, actually, because I've watched in preparation for that I have watched seminars where you were speaking, and you talk about the importance of conditioned responses to mistakes, routines, habits, steps that you move through giving your job in one of the most elite sporting environments in the world. I wanted to ask you, if you wanted to help a non athlete get better at this, this idea of having a conditioned response to mistakes that might pop up during the day? Where would you tell them to start?
Mike Dunlap 21:30
Well, the hardest thing to do is admit a mistake, myself included, you know, and so I think that vulnerability is endearing. And so the key is, is that let's say we're in fast action in basketball terms is that I think that if you see someone like Yanis, point to himself on an errant pass, well, then it makes it a lot easier for Middleton, Holliday and everybody else, even the coaching staff, that's a humbling act by a generational player. And so his mother taught him that or his father did, and also teachers, coaches and life taught them to point to himself to own them mistakes. So that's number one. Number two is is that if somebody's going to own a mistake, and they not don't know quite how to get themselves away from that mistake or correct it, then it's incumbent on the teacher to assist. And here, let me show you and what I call a correctable and so corrected and then number three is the key is walk away from it in a way where you're not going to have it be huge weight, because I think a lot of times when after we've corrected the mistake, we feel like we're invincible and that can happen and perfection is suffers a fool's thought and fools feeling. [SB6] [SB7]
You know, that's why that word perfection is so dangerous. It's volatile. It's very, you know, in the myth of perfection is perfect practice makes perfect. No Perfect practice makes for a miserable son of a bitch. That's what it makes. And my point is, is that we may have a paradigm of perfection. Nothing wrong with going after that, but along the trail is is that you have to take the instructor, the leader has to take moments of celebration for little acts that are advancing the chains. And what happens with the perfection is says they run by the celebration and the joy, because, you know, they're always chasing something that's unattainable. But okay, fine. That's one element of perfectionism. But the worst element of it is that there's no joy, you know, it's like, Well, that wasn't good enough. And then the dad or the mom or the teacher, or the leader is saying, well, we can do a little bit better. And if you look at some of those leaders, there's sad sacks at the end of the trail, you know, they have all this money, and jobs being one of them, you know, brilliant guy, didn't play well in the sandbox with other people. At the end on his deathbed. He had a whole host of things that he said was regrettable that he wished he would have taken more time, you know, with people with doing things that were joyful. So greatness has a price to it. You bet. [SB8]
But distinction beings made as you watch leaders, are they taking time to celebrate, you know, a cup of coffee, a good conversation here. I mean, this may be the best part of my day with you, Paul, and I'm good with that. I mean, I want that I don't need to have noon be any better than this right here. It just isn't. And if I know that, then it's a touchstone of a beautiful day. And I just think that it's really, really important that we stop and take time to under Stan, the here and now I mean, the Buddhist meditation, all of that stuff really, is to get all the garbage out of our head at some point in time during that day and do a flush, so that we can move to the next moment to be present. I mean, when you're meditating, you're really not present for anybody but yourself. But the world doesn't work that way. Once we leave that meditative state, we've got to go and interact with other people, you know, and, and that's, that's a joy. That's a pleasure I get to, I want to operate with other people and mingle because I want to learn, I want to help, I want to be a servant. And there's the joy. And so I just think that again, my parents were go getters, they were achievers, they did a ton of things. But if you said I had to go back, and I could on Earth them, I would say to them, take a little bit more time for the things that you achieved, because we want to see you as our children, your children's smile a little bit more laugh a little bit more, you know, that kind of exchange, because like I said, as you can be miserably successful, as opposed to wonderfully successful. Mike woods,
Paul Barnett 26:21
are important to you. You're an English major, you've referenced several books in this conversation. I know you love to read your journal, you write poetry. But could I ask you a better time that someone confronted you with words in the form of feedback that helps you evolve as a leader,
Mike Dunlap 26:37
players exit interviews, my wife, my children, you know, because they have a place in my heart, and when you invest in a player, and yet you got it wrong, and you're having an exit interview, and you heard a player, that's their opportunity to talk to you. And maybe they're done with you, you know, they've graduated. And so they really don't have anything to lose. So they're freer to really kind of say, where you're not very good, or you hurt them. And I think that if you're open to that, as opposed to just, you know, answering, you know, why you hurt them, and you're quiet, you'll learn and be better for the next player, you'll be better for your kids, you'll be better for your wife. But the hard part is to be quiet, and just be vulnerable, and give value to what they're saying, not only with lip service, but by slowly changing your own behavior.[SB9]
Paul Barnett 27:36
Is there a way that you process that feedback in order to make a change?
Mike Dunlap 27:41
Well, number one is age helps you number two is when you've made some egregious mistakes, if you're willing to again admitted, and then day by day, move to a different place, your actions are really putting it down, where you're evolving, because there's a self satisfaction to not doing that, again, that is tenfold of staying the same, you just want to be better. And understanding that better means that you're not as harsh, or that you're more open and that even in this interview, I'm not as dogmatic or, you know, okay, I know more than then that person or that person. These are all suggestions to maybe tantalize somebody to go read. Good to Great by Jim Collins, you know, or, or dive in, we use the word underdog and we love the beauty of underdog Malcolm Gladwell had an entire book on the underdog. My point is that, if if I could do that, then that's beautiful, you know, but without somebody thinking, Well, this guy thinks she knows at all. I mean, I think I've had interviews where I did that to people. And I, you know, I apologize now for that. But I'm not that guy today. No way.
Paul Barnett 29:09
Like I heard you talk recently about the need to balance horizontal and the vertical when it comes to leadership. It's a it's an interesting idea, given the very physical nature of the business you're in. Could you tell me a little bit more about this idea?
Mike Dunlap 29:23
Well, the big push over the last decades and say even 15 years, is to be inclusive, as we alluded to, going down to the supply chain and interacting with your workers. That is all very powerful stuff. But at the same time, the leader has to move back to a position of clarity, because I think you can do too much of the horizontal in a way where there's confusion, you're not sure or gridlock and you're not sure where to go, because let's be very, very direct about this. You If you're working with a team, there are certain decisions that employees don't want to make, you know, they want help from the leader. And they want clear direction and directives at a time where there's consistency, where your employees or your players get in frustrated in. And those things that cause the leader to fall is when there's an inconsistent, you're a passive aggressive leadership, being on site, and players and also employees seeing you on site at a certain time, every day is very comforting to them. And they know that if you're expecting an unbelievable presence and effort from them, then you need to have an unbelievable presence and effort and being consistent. And that's what I mean is that's, that's more horizontal, or more vertical than it is horizontal. In other words, you know, you're in a position of being an example. And the same thing with parenting, you know, you wouldn't have a seven year old or a nine year old or 11 year old, have certain responsibilities in your home, gets beyond them, you know, paying the electric bill or, or doing this, that's my responsibility in order to provide safety, for example. So my point is, that is vertical. And horizontal is is asking the child, do you feel safe here, here and here, and then creating that environment? And I move to the vertical right there, and I create that along with my wife, of course. And we create that safety, then I don't know if that makes sense. It's a combination. It's not just singular, well, we're just going to be totally lateral in our organization, because I don't think that works. I don't think it works.[SB10]
Paul Barnett 31:55
I know that you're a lifelong journaler. I think it was Pete, you'll who introduced you to the idea.
Mike Dunlap 32:00
There's my journal, yes, the latest one all but and so people can see that. If I keep turning the pages. You know, it goes on and on. Because people say they journal and then the next thing you know, it's razzmatazz. But there it is. It's my little notebook. It goes in a tupperware bin, and then I can get it later. Here's my nice 2023. And then here's my log from my working journal. And everybody has this, but there's three right there. And it works for me. I got away from the Franklin planner, I took certain concepts from the Franklin planner that worked for me, but it was too stodgy. I didn't like some of it. So I broke into my own way of doing what and I work off of a template called savers, which I got from a book years ago. It's an acronym, but anyway, that's another story. Yeah. And this morning, I've already engaged by an acronym. And I've read, I went down to the weight room and did that aspect. I visualized. I prayed, I meditated. So these are things that are done in the course of 60 minutes before I head off to work. So I just do it, and it's become a habit. So it must be
Paul Barnett 33:22
quite a few of those plastic bins filled with notebooks kicking around the garage somewhere.
Mike Dunlap 33:29
Yeah, yeah, they're, they're dead weight.
Paul Barnett 33:32
Well, if we could, if I could challenge you to think about the word resilience, and we were just talking about children, and we're talking about growth, and we're talking about learning, and we're talking about moving forward and coping with stakes. And the word that comes to my mind is resilience. If I could distill a couple of sentences on that topic from all of those notebooks, what would it be?
Mike Dunlap 33:52
Well, the most important thing is you get back up, if we're going to put ourselves out there and try and achieve greatness or be elite, or be very, very good at what we do. And it doesn't mean that you have to aspire to be on a mountain somewhere and be on Mount Rushmore. It means that, Hey, you want to be a great teacher, you want to be a great stevedore. You want to be a great swim coach. It's a whole host of things, but resiliency, I don't care what you're trying for, you're going to get knocked down. And it's your get up. That's going to determine when the next day the next moment. And so do you have get up? Or are you always going to be as a landmark talking about yesterday. You know, there are some people as they evolve and they go down the railroad track of age, and you can pick it in a restaurant, you can pick it in the workforce, you can pick it anywhere you want, and they'll harken back to a crossroads decision or life just kick them in the teeth. And the next thing you know they're always back there talking and about it. And resiliency, the big part is today and tomorrow, you use yesterday as a platform of good, bad, but you gotta get your backpack and throw it on and get going to today and tomorrow. And when you're at dinner, or when you're at a breakfast with somebody or whatever, I think that it's really interesting to talk about today and tomorrow. But over time, it becomes very repetitive and bitterness creeps in. And a lot of things when you're constantly talking about yesterday[SB11] .
And then third on resiliency, that's very powerful, is regeneration is about keeping youth in your life. And we have been blessed as coaches to have 18 to 22 year olds, because I was a college coach forever. But that was all I knew, was 18 to 22 year olds. So they would go on to you know, get their degrees and have children and have, you know, all the other things and celebrations, but yet they're another group that are going to have weddings, and have kids and pick a career, and you're educating so but keeping young people in your life because what happens as you get older, is people die, and you go down the road with your graduating class. But what are you doing strategically to move to the youth because they're on the cutting edge of what's new, what's going on, or whatever doesn't mean you have to subscribe to it. But I it's remarkable that people that I run into, and they'll say, Jesus, you know, what have you been drinking? What have you, you know, what are you eating? What are you doing, and when you're around 18 to 22 year olds, I feel more compelled to exercise than I do one on one with a bunch of 65 year olds, it, that's not a criticism, it's just a it's a resounding fact, you know, or you know, there's a pair of sweats or there's a top that kind of goes and you update your clothes even more a little bit it you know, or you're able to talk about texting, or you're able to know about Instagram or social media, you know, we you know, I know that there's this thing going on about social media being the enemy, and and the decline of civilization as we know it. But let's say you don't take that particular perspective, and you teach the young how to put a leash on their phone, and no phone zones, and hey, how it's rude, and put the phone away to get them to lift their eyes up and have a conversation? Well, it can happen. It happens all the time. But they need that kind of instruction, or help in that, well, I need their help to show me how to negotiate and move around a phone with certain tricks they have that I would never have had as a 65 year old. So I think it's a win win. But again, resiliency, and what you talked about, I think it's really, really important that that third element of being resilient, have a strategy about where you want to head and where you want to go. Because I think even though that may the people scratch their head and say how's that resilient, I think if you don't have a plan, as you age, you're in deep trouble. David Brooks, his book out called the second mountain, anybody that's aging should read that book, because it's talks about only transitions. You know, there's the content of each chapter, but really the books about how to gracefully transition as you get older. And I think it's marvelous, it's a wonderful book, while being resilient, is transitioning from one decade to the next. And knowing that age is not something that we should regret or fear or whatever. But I see some people that can't be resilient towards the clock. And that's devastating when somebody's constantly going to the doctor to have surgery, because they want to. That's not a judgement here. But if that's the be all end all and it's their 30th surgery, well, there's a problem. There's definitely a problem with wanting to get older. And you know what the bottom line is? And this may sound preachy, but we were given a chair for a certain amount of time on this, or why are we always trying to hold on to the chair, when at some point in time, we're going to have to hand the chair to somebody else. And so my point is, I think aging is liberating. it liberates you to be more open, it liberates you to try different foods, it liberates you to listen to different music, if you approach it that way, as opposed to oh, you know, constant complaining about what the youth is bringing to our culture. How about just saying that's pretty cool. That's pretty neat. You know, and starting with that as a strategy that's been resilient to what's inevitable. We're all going In a die, well, let's celebrate it. Um, man, I'm celebrating it today by being on this interview, I'm, I'm a happy camper being 65 Happy boy, you know, and I'm not worried about being 70 You know, whatever, if I'm get lucky on it great if I don't great, you know, but I am not going to sit around today and bitch about, you know that my left knee bothers me here or whatever. I mean, that's a drag for everybody. And you know, what the biggest drag? self talk? That's a drag for me. I mean, you know, it's like, Hey, dude, if you want to be resilient, you know, get out there and have a hot go today. And that's what's gonna happen.
Paul Barnett 40:40
Mike, just such a great answer. You have such great energy. And I, I'd like to just ask you one final question, you talked about being on the chair for a while and then handing the chair over to someone else? Well, you've been on that chair and you've, you've coached at all different levels of the game all the way up to the top. You've coped in Australia and all around the world in other places, too. But with these people, you've come in contact with these teams you've had access with, what would you like your legacy? To those for those people to be?
Mike Dunlap 41:15 (something in here)
Did you just speak French to me use the word legacy? No, I'm, my point is that I hope I never think about legacy, I want to be a great husband, and a great dad. And and, and then somebody out there would say he helped me. That's it. I mean, you know, he was really good at breakfast, we had some great laughs You know, that other stuff that's outside the orb of whatever, I hope it evaporates. I could, you know, I'd rather spend my energy on today, and tomorrow, and my wife a great hug, you know, music breaks out, we have a dance per day, we just do this thing. It's our thing. I mean, people are like, gone God band that's like your Simple Simon, I want to be the simplest guy on Earth, you know, and just have time for somebody that if say, walked by, and they're walking their dog and sat down, they started to cry that I wasn't so busy that I couldn't take it. Even if I had an appointment, I call ahead show some manners towards coach bud and say, give me five, I'll be there and have the heart to be able to be empathetic enough to listen to whatever was, you know, alien them, or came their way that was really tragic. I hope I'm that guy that you know, the rest of that stuff. You know, I have a ring behind me as World Championship. I have two national championship rings, take them, you know, the doors open, you can have them. You know, it's nice, and I like it and whatever. But it doesn't validate me. You know, you know, that stuff was yesterday's news. It's not today's news. My point is, it doesn't make me better than that second grade teacher, that second grade teacher that taught my son in the second grade. She was absolutely unequivocally a legacy woman. I'm not I can't get there. I mean, I know it. And so when I keep her in mind, I this thing on legacy is not my deal. Not my deal.[SB12]
Paul Barnett 43:24
Well, I'm happy with the answer of eHealth. To me, that's any consolation. Like, it's been great to spend an hour with you. It's you've got such energy and such focus and such breadth of knowledge. It's just just wonderful to spend a little bit of time talking to you about well, sure is a very deep iceberg.
Mike Dunlap 43:42
I would just say this that in the minute that I have left here. In conclusion, I did some research on you and your journey, and where you're at today and pulling the pan and hit heading back to Australia. Right? Yeah, I think it's I think there was a plan there. I think it's marvelous your position where you sit you you help a lot of people and have helped a lot of people and helped your company and all this other stuff. But I'm humbled to be here today, because you're an aw shucks human Dynamo. And I love that about you best guess You bet. I'm not going to bloviate in a way that doesn't have substance, but I tell you what, that as somebody that will visit Australia again, I pray and hope to God that we're able to have a cuppa. And I'll because that would be a joy to me that would make the trip to Australia worthwhile. And that's the honor grace and sincerity and humility that I have at this moment to be before you on this this show and I want to thank you for that.
Paul Barnett 44:49
Like I feel I'm one day away from my last day at work here and I got to admit a little bit more emotion was not what I was hoping for, but I appreciate your time today. It's been wonderful getting to know you and I will definitely look forward to that cup of tea and cake as well.
Mike Dunlap 45:06
May I say hello to everybody at Adelaide, and I was the coach of the 30 Sixers for three years, and I learned a ton. And I want to thank that city. My daughter was born there. And when she turned 18, we brought her back to Adelaide and quietly stayed a week and showed her around and took her back to, you know, she was just born, but showed her how, you know, my wife and I places where we ate, we just had the best best time but I want to thank in particular management, everybody the media, everybody, the coaches Don Shipway in particular amazing man, because they host this for three years and we had the best time and and the culture of Australia. They could not have had a better and they gifted us with a daughter. So thank you, Australia. Thank you, Adelaide.
Paul Barnett 46:00
You're welcome back anytime, Mike. Thanks for Thank you,
Mike Dunlap 46:04
you take care