Mike Hesson edit
Tue, Dec 12, 2023 1:45PM • 55:48
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, coach, team, new zealand, play, guess, work, win, cricket, people, game, coaching, pretty, terms, role, target, conversations, intervene, sports, group
SPEAKERS
Mike Hesson, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Mike is in good morning, and welcome to the great coach, podcast.
Mike Hesson 00:03
Morning, Paul, how are you?
Paul Barnett 00:05
I'm good. I'm good. I'm looking at that amazing view behind you, I'm probably holding you from a nice walk along the water. So I'll try and make it interesting for you today.
Mike Hesson 00:16
Look forward to Mike.
Paul Barnett 00:17
Probably the first question I always ask everybody is where are you in the world? And what have you been doing so far today?
Mike Hesson 00:22
Yeah, so I'm in New Zealand at the moment, which is where my home is. So yeah, I'm lucky enough to live relatively close to water, you can probably see that's pretty, pretty rough day today. So yeah, just better take the dogs for a walk, or we'll do after I do this, kids drop the kids off at school. And also, probably I'm also preparing for a Pakistan Super League draft. So had to do a little bit of work on that early this morning. So that's sort of tie me up catching up with the events overnight.
Paul Barnett 00:52
My thanks for carving out a little bit of time then to talk with us before you get into your day. And perhaps let's start there. Let's start with the great international experience you've had you've coached in India, you've coached in Pakistan, you've traveled all over the world with the New Zealand cricket team. And I'm sure through those journeys, you've seen some really good coaches up close? And I'm just curious, what do you think the Great Ones do differently, that sets them apart?
Mike Hesson 01:20
I think they're really authentic. So they don't try and be anybody other than themselves. And I think that as a developing coach, often you, you try and you try and I guess be malleable in terms of see a good coach and think I want to be like that. And I think all the good ones, maybe have been through that. But ultimately go hang on, if if I want my players to believe in me and trust me and have relationship with me, they need to know that it's actually me rather than me trying to be somebody else. So I guess that's what I see, I see people that are really true and committed to, to their own values and why they are coach. And they're also really good at building relationships with a variety of players. So they don't just have one method, you know, they're actually able to adapt their own style to a multitude of different people.[PB1] [PB2]
Paul Barnett 02:12
I think what's interesting is my, your mother was a management consultant, which I imagine would have been rather a new type of role, but I'm wondering how she's gone on to shape your approach to leadership?
Mike Hesson 02:25
Yeah, look, I think with, with my mother, like we, you know, followed her around a little bit with their work. And I guess the thing was, Mama, she was very, she was very driven, it's probably one thing. So in terms of, you know, she was highly successful, because she was, she was able to sort of keep a really single focus. But she was also able to engage many people in her business. So it was about, I guess, that's probably the, the art of being truly empathetic is that you you enter negotiations, or you work with old people, people, and you realize that everybody in that relationship has to see benefit in it for it to work. So I think that's part of coaching, too, is that you, you might have board members, you might have CEOs, you might have players that have just joined the squad, you might have a captain, whatever it is, and all of those people have to be able to believe in, in the journey that you want to take them on. And I think that's that's one of the things that as a, I guess, you know, my mother is a burgeoning see, you know, consultant, I guess, management consultant, but she probably lead the way. And she was also very much one of the first woman to be taking on those jobs, she was fearless. And that's probably something that, you know, took me to a lot of the different countries that I went to which I could have easily stayed in New Zealand and I had a good job, and I could have stayed in it, or I took myself out of my comfort zone a bit and went to Argentina and, you know, had to learn Spanish and went to Kenya and had some challenges over there, but learns a heck of a lot as well. So I guess it's that as well as taking yourself out of your comfort zone, being relatively comfortable on that space. And just, you know, finding a way to make it work, you know, rather than being too tough actually trying to navigate yourself to to make that role successful.
Paul Barnett 04:12
Well, I think, let's talk about being fearless. And let's talk about the travel because you start out as a coach quite young, and you're progressing various assistant roles, but the big inflection point comes in 2003, where you head over to Argentina, which is a, you know, burgeoning, burgeoning cricket country, but what were you hoping to achieve through that experience?
Mike Hesson 04:35
Well, I've been I've been director of cricket for seven years at Otago. So I and I did quite well, and I was, I guess, I was forming a I was forming some experience and I was forming a bit of reputation for being a good director of cricket. But I wanted to be head coach. And I sort of saw that if I wanted to stay in cricket. I could either do this job forever and get really good at it or make He did the same job at New Zealand cricket. But I wanted to test myself to go well, okay, if I want to be a head coach, I can't really stay here. Because I always feel like if you stay in the same place you you're always viewed in a certain position. And you're, you're, you're seen as having a certain set of skills. Whereas I wanted to show that I had a bit more than that. And even though I'd coached teams to win tournaments, like under age or a level, I was probably still seen as in the role that I was in. So I thought I need to go away and try and, you know, show that, that I can be successful in a completely different place. And I probably couldn't get any more different than Argentina. So I arrived in one side is, it was an ICC appointment, which was a good thing. So there was a little bit of stability around that. I knew, you know, I knew a guy that had that I'd coached or played with, sorry, in the UK, it was the CEO over there. So he'd sort of made contact with me and said, Hey, is this something you might be interested in? And, you know, I knew it was a different language, but I want to, I went into it a little bit, eyes closed, and sort of thought, now let's just let's take this on, it was a life experience. So I've only recently got married, was a chance for us to go over there and see loads of different language, completely different culture, and try and turn Argentina quickly round. I mean, we would, I don't think we'd want a game in the Americas covering we owe and 42 or something like that. So we certainly hadn't looked to qualify, but it was, yeah, it was one of those things that I wanted to give a go. And I wanted to see if I could go into somewhere completely different and see what unfolded. Well,
Paul Barnett 06:51
it did move you along, we'll get to what happened next, with your cricket career, when he when he came, came back to New Zealand. And I'd like to explore a quote I've got from your first mic, you say. So if you can help build that environment, where it's a learning environment, but not always a coaching environment, so that the subtle conversations that are happening all around us, are probably the most valuable to really, really caught my eye when I was reading it, because there's lots in that that sentence, but I wanted to ask you about this idea of the subtle conversations, it really intrigued me, and I'm wondering if you could tell us more about those conversations and why you think they're so important.
Mike Hesson 07:31
Yeah, I think if you're working with a player, and the player always feels like they're being coached, or they're, you know, they always feel like they're always a bit guarded. And you're never really going to get potentially to the, to the nub of the real true problem, or the root true issue. And there are wholly different ways to get there. And, you know, some some players you work with, you know, like everything really structured and, and sort of operate their way.
But a lot of players won't open up unless they, you actually genuinely have a relationship with them. And like, for example, you know, you might want to talk to somebody about, you know, the decision making under pressure, for example. And if I was to talk to a player who'd played international cricket forever, they knew there was a bit of a weakness there. And I was all of a sudden going down the, you know, the sports side route, or I was going down a road that was staring them. And blindly in the face, you get a bit of a wall, because they've been through that before. Whereas if you find another interest, because you actually know the person's genuinely, and you know, that they're into football, for example. And they're a big fan of Ronaldo, whatever it is. And you, you asked questions about, you know, how would How does Ronaldo operate in these situations? Have you read anything about him? You know, like, you're, you're genuinely having a conversation about somebody else. With, with, I guess, a slight intention of making them opening their eyes to maybe that might be them as well. And you're you're so you, you know, you're you're not only building the relationship, but you're also trying to answer questions by them using your own knowledge.
And by just answering or asking the right questions, you know, and it's, you know, they are, you know, they are subtle conversations, and they are conversations that ultimately help that player and lead you in the direction you want to go without it being right in their face. And sometimes it's more, you know, it's not as structured as that, like you're you're genuinely just trying to find out about players and how they got to that position where they are because once you understand how they got to that point, you can try and work it way to intervene and where you might be able to add value. Whereas if you just come in with, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to coach this person, I'm going to make them better, without really knowing all the different facets of how they got to that point. That might work with a 12 year old, because they don't have that much baggage. But with a player that's been coached by 50 coaches throughout their career with 10 different teams, 20 different teams, how are you going to add value? And I think you can only do that, when you truly understand the athlete, and you know, and you try and suck the answers out of them, you know, rather than as I said, being to prescribe, so, yeah, that's, I guess that's the way I would describe subtle conversations, but they, they take many different shapes.[PB3] [PB4]
Paul Barnett 10:47
It's something fascinating there, you talked about asking the right questions. Is there any tips routines? Templates are that you use to get those questions?
Mike Hesson 11:01
Well, I think less is more. So. So before you. Yeah, before you, you ask the question that you really want the answer to, you might have to ask a few others to gather information. So you're not always, you're not always asking. You're not always asking questions, because the answer is as important It might just be to stimulate discussion and might be because you need to gather enough information, as I said, to try and angle the right question. But it's just trying to find what I guess. Yeah, just just trying to understand the player. You know, what? How might you be able to? How might you be able to sort of not angle, construct a question, that's actually going to give you a useful answer and give the buyer a useful answer? Because ultimately, majority of the time the player actually has the answer in them, they just haven't been asked the right question. So yeah, I don't think it's a template, I think you've you've got to be, you've got to be pretty quick on your feet. And you've also got to be genuine. As I said, you kind of got to, you've got to give as well as take. No, so it's a it's a real, it's a real conversation. And I think only that point, once you've created that dialogue and that relationship, can you genuinely ask, maybe a difficult question received come straightaway, you got no chance, or you just get a rote answer. Which is not going to solve any problems or or assist the player in any way. So I don't know if I've really answered that. But I think it's, you've got to be met, you've got to gotta roll with it. You can't be too prescribed in terms of how you operate in a space?[PB5]
Paul Barnett 13:02
Well, I think the idea of asking a question that helps the athlete or the individual find their own answer is a really is a really powerful idea. Mike, can I can I just build on what you said there by playing back another quote to you Sorry, I have found a couple of interesting ones. So they did, clutch part of the interview. But you actually say it's in it's a wonderful quote, you say, to know when to intervene. And when to say nothing is an art, I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm the skill, I wish I could develop a little bit better as well. But when you talk to younger coaches, or even older coaches about developing this skill, what do you tell them?
Mike Hesson 13:46
Well, I guess, you try. And well, I try and make myself a little bit vulnerable. In terms of look, I've been in this position before where I feel as a coach on supposed to know all the answers. And often when you are a coach, you when you have a relationship with a player, or you're working with a player, you think that that player wants you to give them all the answers. Therefore, that's what you try and do and sometimes you you either come up with a really rubbish answer, or really rubbish question, or you hear or you just talk way too much, and then it just becomes a yeah, it just becomes a sort of a nauseating thing or what's he going to come at me now? You know, I see that many coaches you got you go to a practice session. And the time between instruction from a coach is so minimal, because they they see something and all of a sudden, they now want to share that with the player, you know, whereas, I guess as you become more comfortable with silence, you actually let the player try and work out a solution themselves. And then ultimately, over time, if they don't, then you've had enough time. To process, what's the actual? What's the actual real issue here? And therefore you have either a real question, or potentially you can give them a solution. Whereas if all you're doing is just intervening all the time, the player firstly, the player just goes on out. [PB6]
And secondly, the information is useless. You know, so I think, with the young coaches, or you said even older ones who are probably ingrained in their style, it's like, hey, the modern, the modern athlete, you know, is used to these little short sound bites. So, to make sure when you give them a sound bite, it's actually the right one. So, so think about it. Like, don't intervene, just stop for a start, then think about it, how you might say your message, and then try and have, you know, in terms of so so you're, you're narrowing down in your mind? What the, yeah, I guess we're in the continuum, you're going to intervene? And then exactly, if you are, how are you going to add value, rather than just tell them you've got all this information? And by the way, you stuff that up? Don't do it again, you know. So I, your silence is good. And then I think you get respect from the player, because you're only intervening or interrupting their practice, when you've given them time, to try and solve the problem themselves. And that's, that as a player, I think that's where you gain more respect. You know, because, as I said, these players have been given loads of instructions throughout their coaching for their playing career. And they only want to deal with coaches who can add value, not tell them the same things they've already heard before.
Paul Barnett 17:05
A rific terrific insight, I think into elite level coaching. Mike, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I love this idea of respect, being linked to silence. But let's continue the journey before we get to more deeply desires. Because you have this great experience in Argentina, you come home, more time at Otago. And then in 2008, your appointed coach, then the team promptly, they win the one day trophy. And then the following year, they win the T 20. Championship and I think this was the first silverware in 20 years. So it was it was a great achievement for a very proud cricketing club. But what were some of the first things you did when you got into the head coach role that helped drive that result?
Mike Hesson 17:51
Yeah, I guess we had to, we had to strip back what a target was all about like a target was the smallest province by a long way. It's not. There are only six provinces in New Zealand and the target has 7% of the population. So obviously, we were undermanned in terms of staff. So therefore, how could we make Otago successful and trying to build a huge amount of depth was never going to work? So it was like, Okay, how can we identify players from within the province that we could build the team around? So who are the ones that are incredibly passionate about Otago? Who are the skillful ones, but maybe need some other people around them to try and join that all together? And then, once we did that, how could we? How could we try and get some good players and recruit some good players that actually want to come to a target. So generally, we only got players to a target, who couldn't get in teams anywhere else. So they wanted an opportunity to play first class cricket. And they saw this as the opportunity to do so. So I guess what I went as I went, let's take that a step further. I only want to approach players who have ambition to not play for a tiger but have ambition to try and play for New Zealand. So a lot of the conversations around when you were talking to a player was like, Okay, I know you want an opportunity. And thank you good, but you know why you actually come down? And and do you have the willingness and desire to not only come here, have a great time by first class cricket, but what do you need to do to play for New Zealand? And we're able to sort of identify, I guess, one or two in that space. And then once you're able to get one or two. After the first year, we we made the playoffs for the first year and 12 years or whatever. I mean, there's only 16 competition, but we hadn't made the top four or whatever it was for 12 years or whatever. So we were so all of a sudden we started to do well we made the play Have you made the final, okay, maybe this is quite a good place to come. And then it's about the culture you've created. So when other players or the local players are being introduced, this is the way that we were going to play our game. And this is what it means to play for a target, these are the expectations we have. So we'd love you to come along, but you know, you need to buy into this as well. And it was it was very much around, playing for your mates, really, you know, putting your body on the line, enjoying the tough times. So enjoying the having the ball into the winds, you know, having to scrap out a partnership, and you're in trouble, like enjoying and embracing those things. So, you know, we we did that. And then once we got a couple of players, we then got a couple more. So we we all of a sudden, you know, had had four players from outside the province come and join us who were all had ambition. And they joined a group of local players who were desperate to try and turn a target around. And then I was able to then approach players that left the province to say, hey, we're actually developing something pretty cool here, you left for a reason, because you wanted to fight for a better team. You wanted to be around better players. We're actually pretty good team now as well. And this is the way we operate. And we had we had Brendon McCullum come back, he been playing tennis or even living in Canterbury, he decided that he went when I was actually playing golf with him and I see make any changes, you want to come back and play because his brother was playing for target. And in Britain was like, and I was waiting for that I was waiting for you to ask me. So I was like, Yeah, you know, and he was like, he was young, he was still very much the way most of the time playing for New Zealand. But it was like, it was a huge influence back into Otago. As a player who had left, he was one of our, you know, one of our bright lights, who we were enjoying the fact that was buying for New Zealand and it had come from a target, but he wasn't playing for us. So when he came back and played it, he had a pretty instant impact, because he had a real desire to make a difference. And, and therefore, you know, for the next 10 years, even after I left, you know, we were a real powerhouse in New Zealand crude because we built some real good foundations around what it meant to play for a target. Oh, you know, what the expectations were and, and it wasn't about just coming down having a good time was about you know, being real scrappers, we almost called a misfit 11. But I quite enjoyed that, you know, we, we had people from all walks of life, who came together for a common goal. And, you know, we sort of embraced that we embrace the fact we were a bit different. We didn't try and turn them into the same people, but we had a few guys who were a bit loose, to be honest, they were, you know, outside of the game, they were, their decision making was probably not as sound as it could be, and helping them develop into better individuals. You know, finding girlfriends, buying a house, getting married, having kids and sort of seeing them in that transition was something that I really got satisfaction from seeing them when they were probably at the, you know, at their lowest youngest sort of loosest you know, it was really quite nice to see that transition and and I'm, you know, good friends with a lot of them now is the after they've grown up.
Paul Barnett 23:40
Well, you have a great run at Otago. I'm going to talk to ask you a few questions about Brendan in a minute. But you have a great run at Otago. And that leads you into the blackcaps job in 2012. And they then go on lightning strikes twice for you, the team go on this amazing run over the next six or seven years. When you think back on those early days, leading the blackcaps What what comes to mind
Mike Hesson 24:09
was tough. It was tough to because I guess it taken over a team that had had had very little success. And when they had success, it was you know, it was really celebrated in isolation. So I guess in many ways, it was quite easy because we were very much rock bottom. They were eighth, eighth and ninth in the world and the three different formats. And there were only nine teams at that stage. So we were you know, we had the odd, good day. But we were certainly not consistent in terms of how we operate it.
So I guess early on, it was about observing because i i I'd come in, I've been in, I've been away for a year, been in Kenya, I came back, and it was quite a relatively quick appointment. And I pretty much went straight to India to meet the team and the team had just come from the West Indies were that they hadn't gone so well.
So it was about sort of observing the team for a while and getting to know what was working well, what wasn't, rather than coming in, and all of a sudden, you know, being this guy who's gonna turn all their fortunes around and change things. So a lot of it was about, I guess, introducing my values in terms of why I was in this role, and what I thought was important and what I was looking for in the types of players I wanted. And then I had to sit back and just in suck it and see for a bit and just see how guys went about things, what was working and see what what I could probably see was going to work. And what I could see was probably not. [PB7]
And after a better, you know, three or four months, I made some, I made some pretty significant changes. Some were, were politically more correct than others, or seem to be easier than others. I changed the captain, which was because I felt the team needed a different direction. And then I probably realized was was going to be polarizing, but probably not as polarizing as it was not within the team at all. The team were were absolutely fine, but more so outside the team. And that applied a huge amount of pressure. To me, because I'd made a big change relatively early on. I didn't have a huge reputation. You know, I came in as this unknown guy who did well domestically, hadn't played cricket internationally. You know, came in and there was a lot of people, ex players in particular, who were like, who, you know, who and he because this guy is coming in, he's, he's got rid of our captain. And he's replaced him, supposedly with one of his mates, which was never the case at all, it was just a matter of what did I think this team needed to move forward? Because, you know, we were not only stagnating, we were we were really inconsistent in terms of how we operated. And we certainly weren't maximizing our talent. And I see, I think at that point in time, as a coach, you either go, what's the easiest thing for me to do here, which is pretty much nothing? Or what's going to be what's going to make the biggest difference. And that was where I thought, Look, if I'm gonna get fired from this job, which I probably will, I may as well do it my way. I might as well do it in a way that I think at least will give success. Whereas I could maybe do the job for two years, you know, flat at no feathers, but lose the job and probably not have even tried to do it my way. And that took quite a bit of bravery really. And then ultimately, I just thought stuff that look, I came into this role because I wanted, I was passionate about New Zealand cricket, I wanted to try and make a difference. So I have to try and do it my way. Otherwise, I haven't given a decent crack. And I've listened to all of these people around me. And I've probably worked out there, a lot of them have agendas anyway. And a lot of them have probably tried their way before and it hasn't worked clearly. So let's get my way ago. So, you know, we pretty much hit rock bottom. And it was actually a really easy conversation with the team. It was like, Look, we've actually tried it your way. We've tried doing things in this fashion. But we're not going to anymore. We're going to strip it back, we're going to we're going to pick people that are going to play for the team. First, we're going to try and remove this, you know, personal milestones that, uh, holding us back. We were being way too influenced by trying to be like Australia, who were a good team, you know, like, you know, sledging you know, getting caught up and things that aren't actually helping us, you know, they're detracting the way we want to play the game.
So once again, stripping it back. What are the New Zealand public want? You know, they want fighters. They want people that even though they might not have the biggest names, but they're going to scrap every ball every day. They're going to do it with some humility. So they're going to play for the team. So that, you know they're going to be really selfless in terms of how they operate. They're going to be engaging with the public. You know, they're going to respect the game. and the officials and things like that. So we really stripped it back in terms of, hey, this is actually what we want for our team moving forward, how are we going to get there, and then tried to put a, a bit of a pathway in terms of, you know, we can't just throw everyone out and start again, we probably need to give people a chance to make those changes. And then, I guess, using a quote, that Steve Hansen said to me, he was very much, you know, if you can't change them and change them. And, you know, it was it was one that stuck with me, because you, you always want to give somebody an opportunity to shift and to show that they've learned, and they want to go down this path. But ultimately, they need to make that decision. And, you know, if they don't, then you could keep going to the well over and over again, but ultimately, you're not going to get any results. So there was a, there was a quote, that probably stuck with me, and I had to use a couple of times, you know, where there was some really talented players who word always playing for the team or didn't always have the best interest of the team at heart. And that's where I needed to make change.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 31:21
You mentioned, Steve Hansen, there, of course, the legendary All Blacks coach, but when you describe that situation, it sounds challenging and difficult. Were there other mentors that you Surrett or critical friends that you surrounded yourself with that supported you through that process? Yes.
Mike Hesson 31:37
So I was I was, I was quite isolated. To be fair, because after I changed the captain, you know, I was I was almost public enemy number one boy, at least 70% of the public, because I was seen to, you know, going down a different path. And it was it was actually not a great time. And that's, I guess, the time where you do find out who are the people that you can rely on. And I was really fortunate, I was part of a group called the coach accelerator program. And I was in the inaugural group. So it was set up by high performance sport New Zealand. And they basically, they basically paid us a, you know, an annual fee to do a three year course. And there was, you know, many people that apply, but there was six of us that got selected. It was so Steve Hansen, myself, a guy called Tom Walmart, who was the head of snowboarding in New Zealand at the time. A Viet McCausland jury who was the she was a domestic woman's coach went on to coach the Silver Ferns, a guy called Dave Thompson, who, you know, was part of the New Zealand rowing crew and rowing was was pretty huge at that time. And a guy Dale cheekily, who was part of New Zealand cycling, who was also, you know, a big part. So there was team sports. And there were also you know, individual sports. And, you know, for three years, maybe half a dozen times a year, we would go on these two 3d excursions somewhere in, in New Zealand. And we'd lock ourselves away, and we would, you would have a lot of scenario, coaches. So the conversations were, as I said, we would, we would be able to, once we build that trust, we were able to be really confident to say, Hey, this is a scenario that faced me, these are my actions, this was the result. What do you reckon? And, and you get all these political friends, I guess, who would be able to go, okay, you've done this, but why did you do this, and not this, and what was your thinking around this. And we were able to really challenge each other in so many different ways, without ever feeling vulnerable, in terms of, you know, you go to a cricket conference, or you go for a conference within your sport, and ultimately, you're all going for the same job. You're all trying to get st. Whereas in this group, all we're doing is we're turning up, and sure we're trying to, to improve ourselves, but we're also trying to help each other along the way. And there's a guy Alex McKenzie, who ran the program. You know, X coach X, you know, he's a doctor of coaching is a clinical site, or a sports site, and just a really good, a really good sound human who was able to sort of bring us together and construct a program that, you know, gave us all support, and gave us all, you know, you know, brought in a whole heap of speakers from around the world in different areas of coaching. And it was a it was a amazing, three years for us. And I really drew on that group and put people within that group to, to say, Hey, these are some of the things I'm going through what do you reckon? And they probably knew it anyway, because it was pretty public at the time. And they were okay to share, you know, in and you're able to feel vulnerable within them and say, Look, I'm actually really struggling here. You know, am I doing the right thing? And yeah, that was that was probably a support network. That was that was really important for me at a challenging time when I first took over.
Paul Barnett 35:30
Sounds like an amazing support network to have around you that a lot of people listening that probably wouldn't have been thinking about creating their own group if they haven't already. But can I kind of pick up a theme? This theme that runs through your your life, actually, Mike, which is, every time you were given more responsibility, you thrived? You seem to have just stepped up and grown. And I can find two examples where the same things happen to players that you've been leading. So there's Brendon McCullum, you made him the captain, he thrived. He's often our coaching England. And the other one is Glenn Maxwell. And I know it hasn't. I'm not sure whether you agree, it hasn't been written about a lot. But there seems to be an inflection point for Glenn, when he starts to come under your coaching and you give him more responsibility. I'm just curious if you see this thing? And if so, are there any frameworks you use to determine or is there any questions or thoughts you use to determine whether this person will thrive with extra responsibility?
Mike Hesson 36:35
If for me, I guess it's understanding and said, firstly, the journey that players gone through because, you know, if I was to give Brennan McCallum that responsibility two years earlier, for example, I don't think it would have been as successful. And same with with Glenn Maxwell, you know, often you need to go through adversity or you need to go through different experiences in your life. And you get to a maturity level where you go, now I'm actually ready to take on that responsibility. And that extra year, that extra role and accountability in the player, I guess, by conversations you have with the player, you need to know that, that they're at that stage. So that if you were to give somebody that responsibility, the chance of success is as high, it's not guaranteed. But it's high. And like, if I think Brendan, for example, you know, Brendan was picked for New Zealand, when he was very young. He was growing up within the blackcaps environment, you know, he was making mistakes he was he was learning about himself, he was building relationships with, you know, outside of cricket, you know, so you have to get to a point where the team then become where you want to spend most of your focus, you know, and only then can you become a good leader, I believe.
So as a captain, you have to, you have to very much lead from the front in terms of not only do I say this, I actually genuinely believe it, and I will do it myself. You know, I will, I will put aside all of my own personal agendas or goals, whatever it is, because the forefront is what the team requires from me. And therefore, only then will the players go, Hey, he actually means what he's saying, and I want to follow. And Brendan was at the perfect time I felt for that team. Because he had, he had enough people that had seen him go through the journey, and had respect for him. And he had enough people who had arrived at that time, who were just going to follow him through a brick wall, because he was practicing what he preached. And you could see that in the field. You know, when he said look, we're gonna put your body on the line, we're gonna chase everything hard. We're going to you know, every run is valuable. We're going to the fielding actually shows. That is the litmus test for this team. You know, in terms of the energy we bring in the field that that will dictate what this team is about, you know, he was the first one to enter his body was naked, but he was the first one to absolutely spring for everything dive, do everything he could to save one run. And all of a sudden that the players in the group were like caught Wow, well, if this guy is doing it, you know, he's been around the wall look, that's the expectation for everybody. So if I'm not seem to be sprinting hard enough, even if it's going to the fence, if I'm not seem to be doing that, I will get reminded that that's not who we are. So I mean, that's just one small example. [PB9]
But he was he was really to be that guy to be the guy that says hey, follow me and I will be true to this as well. And Maxi was Max it was the same in terms of he he thrived on. On responsibility. You know, he was at a time now he played with huge amount of Clear, but he wanted a role that not only suited his skill set but also gave him some real importance in the team. You know, I was part of a you know with I was with our CB when Glenn was a Punjab anything with Punjab for kings live in Punjab for quite a long time. And they had, they had a super over. In fact, they had a double super over in Dubai the year before. And in the Super over, you obviously put out three, three batsmen. And he wasn't one of those three than the first. And then it was a double, super over. So they had to put out another three. And he wasn't part of that group. Because he had had, he'd had a poor year. But at that time, I knew that he was out. Because, and I remember talking with him, and he was like, well, at that point, I realized that they might have paid all this money for me, but they actually had no trust in giving me any responsibility at all. And even though he'd had a poor year, he's still the guy that one of the guys he would put first out there. Because he's just that guy. And I guess we identified where we could actually maximize his talent. You know, he'd been used in this finishes role on T 20, which is like, you know, you get to 20 balls and you're supposed to smack 40 or whatever, but he's actually not that player. He's he's a player that you know, that he needs to construct an earnings even though the earnings might end up being incredibly explosive. It's, it's, it's against often against spin to start with, it's in the middle overs field, you know, he, he just needed a role that suited his talent. And then insane within the field, you know, he wants to be that guy wants to be the guy in the hotspots. So him and Vera is like, right, you guys can fight over. Long on off, I don't mind. But you know, what I want to make See, I want you to be the guy who who can be the conduit, I guess, between various ways out on the fence and Ebola. So you sort of giving them those extra responsibilities, and he thrived on it. Because he always wants to be that guy. He wants to be that guy that they can help his team win a game. And often that's misunderstood as being this, you know, petulant, sort of hugely talented guy who doesn't care. You know, he's far from that. He's a guy who's a huge team man, who just wants to try and win games for his team. And he had a great relationship with Vera. You know, him, AB and Verrett. To start with an unfair fight afterwards, they were a really tight group and hugely passionate for our CV. And, you know, we went we went pretty close at times to, to winning that first title. And you know, Maxie played a huge part of that.
Paul Barnett 42:57
Mike, I've got another quote, just to build on this story. You're telling about developing teams, I'd like to just read the quote back to you and then then then relay the question you say, and every single game we go into, we try to win. But the longer you're in this game, the more you realize, if you're pining for the result, then you actually forget about how you do it, you actually lose sight of the things you can control. I like this idea of pining for the result. Was there a person or an event that helped form this view for you?
Mike Hesson 43:34
Yeah, there was, and I actually did, I did read this quote back and I thought, Now, why have I have I come up with this? And it's there's probably twofold. I've heard, I've heard players before. You know, when I first took over go, you know, this is a must win game. You know, we've This has got to win this one. And as soon as, as soon as I sat down, I thought, yeah, no doubt about that. But you know, and I've talked about players, you know, they they're going to target games, or we need to target these games. I remember, when I first took over a both Otago and in New Zealand, there was this perception, you go into a world event or big event in the eye, you got a target to target these games. And I'm like, No, why would you do that? Right? Because if you do that you're like, you're putting extra pressure on yourself to win this game. And you're probably forgetting about these ones over here, which you actually could win anyway, like if you do things well. So I sort of put that in the back of my mind. I dealt with that.
And then it probably hit me when I first went to, to the IPO. And I sat in, I sat in meetings with with owners, and you know, the owners were, were either you know, we hadn't In the first team I was with kings living, I hadn't made the semifinals for quite a long time. And it all they were about was, you know, this is a, this is a must win game. We've, we have to win, we have to win this game. And I'm like, yep, like so. So I'd sort of, I'd sort of thought that okay, well, I'll open it up, like, Okay, well, I My job is to sort of, you know, how are we going to do that, you know, try and work out a team to sit in there, like, I don't really care, but you have to win this game, this is a must win game, because we have to get these two points. If we don't get these two points, our net run rate will drop. And we'll be behind this team. And then we we have to win this. And I'm like, Whoa, you know, you're, you're sort of extrapolating this out to a point where you're going to apply all this extra pressure, not only to me, but now you want me to then passed this on to all of the team, to let them know how much of a must win game this is, is this actually going to help us win the game. And I was well aware that it was definitely not going to help. Because, you know, for players to, for players to perform under pressure. And to win, they had to have a really clear head. And they had to give himself an opportunity to, to, to show their skills as well as they could. So my job was to almost remove that was to go well hang on. We know every game we go into here, whether we're playing for New Zealand, or we're playing in the IPL every game is a must win, what we're trying to win every single game. But how can we do that. And the last thing we're going to do is ramp it up like this is we're targeting this game, we're going to this is a must win game. Because it's like, I can't actually ask the players to try any harder than they are doing every day. Like they are trying every day to to be as good as they can be. And to play the role for the team. Be really clear around the job description, prepare accordingly, prepare against the opposition, understand the facilities, how are we going to what decisions that we're going to make tactically to help us win, like that's going to help us win the game. It's not by going into a meeting and bashing my my hand down here and telling them that this is a must win. If we do that. Everyone's going to clam up, you know, you might get the odd player that loves that rah rah. And go Yeah, I'm going to get into fight. The odd player might benefit from that, but very few. Most of them benefit from really clear direction around. What's the expectations for me? How am I going to prepare? What's my role, who are the bowlers and might look to target, what's going to work? What length is going to work for me bowling in this condition, these are the details that are going to help navigate to a win, rather than, you know, an owner or a CEO, whatever it is, come in and tell them how important it is. And we haven't won a trophy for X amount. This is the year we have to win the trophy this year. You know, we lost this game over here, we must win this one. All that stuff is just detracting from the job. And I understand that the people who say those things, don't understand it. And that's, that's not the job. But my job is to take that. And, like be aware of it without doubt, but not pass that stress or, or extra pressure onto a player because I just know it doesn't help.[PB10]
Paul Barnett 48:53
Your story after leaving the blackcaps and getting so so, so close to that world championship in the one day format. You Your Story takes you to highperformance New Zealand where you take on a job helping other coaches. And I'm wondering how the how the process of not teaching but supporting others helped further shape your own philosophy?
Mike Hesson 49:20
Yeah, so I think what helped do is that no matter what sport you entered into, that most coaches or all coaches all had the same issues. Sure, technically, technically, there's there's differences, obviously, between sports, but when you've got a group of 20 people, and you've got a support staff of x, it's all the same. You've got out of your 2011 you'll have three players that will soak up 90% of your time. Like they'll just need that energy you'll have you'll have players in your group who are quite self sufficient. You'll have players that that need to cuddle you live players that need A bit of a rocker, you live players that need extra training players that need a short sharp like, like, once you understand the dynamic of the types of characters you have, they're pretty much the same. In every sport, same as in a support staff structure, you've got, you've got some of your support staff that are just amazing, he will fit in and do something, he left some that are trying to be the head coach, you'll have some that that are potentially trying to snipe away or whatever behind the scenes or whatever it is like you always have the same you'll ever a CEO, or a CFO, whatever that are trying to cut things from your program, you know, so you've got to try and really decipher what's really important, and what's not see a lot of the challenges that we all face as head coaches are similar.
So I guess when you're talking to the coaches, it's, it's quite good to share that you're not actually the only one who's been through this. And that, hey, here are maybe some examples of things that that other coaches have gone through and how they've, how they've got through it, because being a high performance coach is quite as I mentioned before, is quite a lonely existence, you often think that, that you are, you are very much in isolation. And you you're the only person who's ever had to deal with these particular issues before. And not only it's quite nice to know that you're not, but it's quite nice to know that, that there are ways to get through that. And there are different ideas and different methods that have worked for different people.
So I guess you can share different experiences with them, and they can try and find one that works within their environment. And I guess that helped shape me in terms of, you know, entering into other sports and entering into business is that we're just dealing with people. Like, as coaches, we are trying to maximize talent, we're trying to maximize the skills of the group that we're working with, whether it be players, whether it be support staff, you know, obviously, preferably bias? And how can how can you as the head coach, pull it all together. Same as in business as a CEO, same as an it's the same nipple, as it is in cricket, you know, as it is in cycling, you know, and, you know, you once you work that out, then all of your learning is actually quite valuable. And you know, it's been, you can have really genuine conversations with, with coaches that are going through struggles themselves, and you can be vulnerable, you can sort of end when you relive some of the things you've been through, it probably reinforces the things that maybe you did well and the mistakes you made. And I think it's you being vulnerable with other coaches to say, Hey, I was in the situation, I actually stuffed it up, I tried this, and it was the last thing we needed, but But it actually helped me lead towards this. So maybe you could bypass the step that I did, and try and find one that that genuinely works for yours.[PB11] [PB12]
Paul Barnett 53:30
Like you've been very generous with your time, I'm sure those dogs are dying to get out for their walk. So maybe just one final question if I could, there's many, many years left on your coaching journey, you're still you're still relatively young. But if you as you peer into the distance and you look down the road, how do you hope that the people you've led describe the legacy or the impact you've had on them?
Mike Hesson 54:00
I guess a good sign for me is that the players, or the people you've worked with, want to reengage with you. You know, and that sounds simple. But you know, you know, there are many people that we've dealt with in the past which you know, stay clear of them or that they talk ill of somebody. And I guess what I want us to people to go, Hey, I really love that environment. He created a great environment for us to work in. And he really helped me become a better player and probably a better person. And I guess those are things that are really important to me. So yeah, those those are probably things that I find that I would find satisfying that if somebody would say, hey, yeah, definitely not only reemployment, but I really want to be part of that team again and really enjoyed my time.[PB13]
Paul Barnett 55:00
It's been wonderful chatting with you and learning a little bit more about your story. I think there's some powerful, powerful ideas in there around the use of silence and questions to help people unlock their own potential. And I thank you very much for agreeing to spend an hour with us today.
Mike Hesson 55:19
In a lot of I've really enjoyed it actually for it's, as I say, often you don't think about your own journey very often. Occasionally you do a podcast like this and, you know, your questions were were probing in terms of making me really live, you know, some of the things that I've been through and said, I think that helps. Yeah, it helps you grow as a coach to and probably reinforced why you do things. So yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it and wish you well with your podcast.
Paul Barnett 55:45
Thanks, Mike.