Noel Donaldson edit
Thu, Nov 09, 2023 9:13AM • 45:56
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, coach, bit, athletes, winning, sport, journey, work, great, rowing, data, new zealand, race, years, good, day, terms, part, taught, wanted
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Noel Donaldson
Paul Barnett 00:00
Knoll Donaldson. Good morning, and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.
Noel Donaldson 00:04
Good morning to you, Paul.
Paul Barnett 00:07
Happy to have you here, Nolan. Something easy to get his going. Could you tell us where you are in the world, perhaps what time it is, and what you've seen what you've done so far today?
Noel Donaldson 00:17
Well, I'm not long out of bed. It's Thursday morning. The fourth of May, I think it is it, which is normally a slower morning, bit of regeneration for athletes. So they start at 9am. It's just after 7am. Here, I'm in the Melbourne University Boat Club. But they call it Cafe academia's. So it's just a bit of a pun there for a little meeting room where the athletes can come and do some study. And being a university book club is very, very rarely anyone in here, mind you. So that might be some indicator of not prefer to be on the water than hitting their books. So it's fairly private here. And I've got a couple of hours. That trips come down to the last training. Well,
Paul Barnett 01:00
thank you for spending those couple of hours with us talking about rowing, the Olympics, gold medals, and I guess all things leadership. And I want to start now by just asking you about some of the great coaches you've either worked with or seen close up. Dick Tonks, Alan Carter, Brian Richardson. And of course, there's there's Marty akin to and I'm, I'm just wondering, from this perspective, what do you think the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Noel Donaldson 01:30
I think the first thing is sort of a personality point of view, you know, we're all different. You know, I think if someone's described Dick Thompson, or you'd say, give me 10 minutes, and and I'll tell you about someone who doesn't fit in the box, or the people who you meet, you know, most of the days, you know, and I think that's pretty true for most of them. And it's easy to criticize ourselves. To say that this is some funny mannerisms that you might notice by a particular person like that, but I think he wants it you actually have to have it, you know, I'm sure, people if they asked the same question about me, you know, they say that I'm gonna just short loudmouth, ex Coxon, who thinks he knows it all, you know, people would wax lyrical about that what your personality is, but I think if you if you're not strong in yourself, and that doesn't mean you have to be verbose, like I am. But if you if you said a bit quietly in the background, I think that's less influence, or you might have on certainly the top end people, you know, who are who are looking for the user with leadership before who are looking for your leadership. And, and I think it control a little bit better. And I don't mean that word in a controlling sense. But, you know, if you're a little bit different, as distinct from just the run of the mill, like off the street types of the thing there too, then we're not trying to level the playing field. But I think that the respect sort of thing comes out of a little bit of a quirkiness that we might all have. So I think that's one aspect of and of course, the people who you've mentioned, Dixon, master coach, but like all of us, our reputation come because of our good athletes, you know, and there's no question Dick's greatest ability was his ability to align and understand that the best athletes knew that the best coach, and so that was him, you know, in his own situations. So once you've then got them, you can then do something with them. So he was an absolute master at getting small groups of people and working them really hard. And his regime was pretty tough in terms of what it was when I took over Eric and Hamish. From that there, some of that was trying to get a little bit away from the oppressiveness of what he thought you needed, you know, that just that absolute discipline to the regularity and how hard training needed to be if you're going to get to the top. So he taught them to wonderful lessons, but they weren't going to probably survive in that regime for the rest of their careers tops and Asara. So that's one reason why, you know, I was involved with them. Others are you mentioned Ellen Carter has a great mate Alan Cox against one another. He got to New Zealand and Australia. So he was my boss. He was a coach, you know, a good coach in his own right. But he was he was a good leader, but he was tough. You know, he's had a nickname of Mr. Nono, you know, so you went to him? And asked a question, and you knew the answer would probably be No. So you did a lot of homework before you went there. If you wanted to progress something and I saw that because we're contemporaries has great leadership from my point of view, because it was really clear you know, you there's no yes maybes, buts or anything like that there too. So, you know, we worked really well together and we're great mates today. He's coming over to what's the All Blacks in a couple of months time and we'll catch up and, and that sort of thing. Brian Richardson Rich and I, we were in the same boat together I was caught and he was he was a struggle about so we sat face to face in state and international campaign. So you know, you have respect about the human being right from the very beginning. And he had an uncanny knack and sense of feel with Cruz as well and was very much sort of Here's why he was really quiet for what he actually did. But he was hugely respected because he was in like a 15 year international type athlete, you know, so he'd done all the hard yards, and he was a solid citizen, you know, and so therefore he commanded great respect from from his athletes, and he was very artful type character in terms of the boat and in terms of what he did. So some real differences in, in people there, you know, worked with Tim McLaren. We started out campaigns together, and he's ended up in the States and, and he, he sort of had his sort of own unique way. And, and great teacher of young athletes, you know, he was a phys ed teacher, as I was the tune, you know, he would teach them manners, behaviors, and those sort of things. They're there. If you want to get into this game, you got to act and behave a certain way. So he was a master at that, let alone is coaching skills. Reinhold BARCHI, was one of my early mentors, and Reinhold showed people how tough you could actually be. And he was quite old school by today's standards, but it certainly worked for him. And it worked for me as well to when I was actually coming through the bollocks me a few times about what I was or wasn't actually doing. And that was good at the time. You know, it's harder to do that sort of stuff to in today's time, but he was really influential sort of, for me from that beginning, and it was also showing you the way through, and you use an example through through the mire of administration and the like, you know, you just took no prisoners. And he's just barrel through and said, This is what we need, this is what we're going to get. So as a little mini me in that regard, there to try to get your way and the internet, it's a lot more professional. And those are things but it was a good start sort of, for me to be around people like that, and great mentors, out of the sport, David Park, and I did my internship, the sports science with him, then we worked a bit together, he asked me to run a a course within his sports coaching and administration course. So you know, Master AFL coaches will too. So I've been lucky, you know, I've sort of rubbed shoulders with all those sort of guys here. And they've taught the, you know, huge things. And I'm hoping there's a few that I might have helped along the way, you know, which is a really important thing there to where they might look back and say, Well, I helped them, you know, for some of the same reasons.
Paul Barnett 07:26
And talk a little bit about looking backwards, but I'm gonna hold it for a bit later in the interview, if we can to have it. I want you were talking about the differences in those great coaches that you've you've experienced, and I want to pick up this theme of differences, because you've taken crews to seven Olympics. And I'm just wondering how you've seen the focus on winning change over that time?
Noel Donaldson 07:50
Yeah, it is. It's, I mean, what's the sports Commission's new win? Well, you know, so yeah, it was a bit more when at all costs in the early days. And now, you know, when people are talking about mental health and the damage caused by the wind at all costs at Titan attitude. And I think that's reason we can temporary, I think there's purpose for it, we suppose if you put a bit of a joke towards it, when well, we probably prefer to win well, by two links, rather than one length, you know, that's what you can read it fine winning Well, upon winning by more. And we don't have to watch those casualties. But there's a lot of happy athletes, you know, when you do quite well. And of course, some of them there, it's it's a real struggle and a relief when they finish the spectrum of that, in terms of putting the big W sort of in front of everything there is very hard to define in any short period of time. And it's very circumstantial to any person crew and the like, you know, if you've got someone who in the reality, doesn't have the ability, you wouldn't think when they start their campaign to win, not that you're not going out there after it, but you have to be you have to lead them in a realistic way forward. Otherwise, you know, it's gonna be a lot of collateral damage, to try and aim too high and the light, but if you've got people who are multiple world champions, well, they don't want to lose and there's one quote, you've been very good at picking up my old quotes. I said it after 96. And I said, What's better than this, you know, winning, winning twice or something I said, winning three times, you know, so that was like a throwaway comment that you never you never get shy of. And then coaching Eric and Hamish in New Zealand, they, you know, they were on a journey together, I ended up being 69 and that bike class and a couple of others in a coffee, you know, so they didn't go, I didn't go out and come second for any race. They can compete it into such it's how you define that and who you're defining it with, which is a pretty important thing.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 09:57
I was listening to you speak recently. then you were talking about storytelling, and how you use it to get your message across. But these days, the story needs to be a little bit more abstract. And I was just wondering if you could tell us what you've learned about messaging. When it comes to the generation you're coaching now? Well, I
Noel Donaldson 10:18
think Joe, again, your probing questions, get me on my verbose line of thinking, but I had some really good learnings towards the end of being in New Zealand. And before I came back to Australia, and that that was a, that was base a lot of perhaps mistakes in terms of athlete management. By not being contemporary enough and moving and reading the play, you know, utilizing sort of your old skills, and this is how they behave, I behave, and we just, we just career on and then you realize, you know that that's not necessarily how to go.
So then you think, Well, if you're going to survive in the industry, then you need to bring yourself up to speed in terms of the athletes, it's all about them. That's, that's the important thing. So if athletes are different, for one of the better words today than what they were 20 or 30 years ago, then what is the difference, you know, you can easily see the difference by what you can blame social media, you can, you can put a spin on it how you like, but they're learning skills. And if we study back when I went to uni front up every day, and you went to lectures, and now it's all online, that's the significant changes in people's learning methodologies. And therefore, we need to understand that and move with it's off, tried to sort of listen, read, learn from other people about how to do it. And certainly, that concept of abstract is really important, the very visual learners, you know, so you don't tell so much, you know, you give them something to actually see and understand it. And then they go on their learning journey and try and make sure that there's some understanding, and you think they're going a little bit the wrong way, you're trying to capture them and bring them back to where it needs to be, or give them some references to go and research. So there's a lot of differences from just telling them what they need to do to now being part of their learning journey. And so the abstract aspect of it, I think, is really, really important. [PB2]
You know, and sometimes, you know, you will even joke, because I see that picture on the wall there, you know, might be some buildings, whatever it's not really about building isn't what is it, you know, and let their mind run, you know, into 60 horses in the field and you're going, is it really, or just try to take them into their own space, you know, about that sort of side of things. And so, telling stories, you've probably got to be careful. And so it's not about you, but it's about activities that have happened before that they can feel that they can relate to, you know, people they know, or, or an event that they are going to that someone else has been through previously, or some sort of scenario where the story is really strong.
And I'm working with Sports Commission, University of Queensland and a mental performance coaching program at the moment. And that's a big part about us being mentors to younger coaches coming through. And it's simply the ability to tell the story and to have it relatable, so that people can understand well, what's the messaging that you're trying to give within the story. So you've probably got to be careful Your storyteller all day, but I find myself doing it far more now. And because I'm being a bit more schooled into that line of learning, that I think it's a really powerful tool, and fun, it's fun to get some sort of enjoyable experiences across and know what the purpose and meaning of it all was. [PB3] Well,
Paul Barnett 13:34
from storytelling to data, because rowing is awash with data that I was intrigued to read how you use data more as an instructional tool than a policing tool. And I was wondering if you could tell us about that.
Noel Donaldson 13:51
Yeah, that's a little bit of an oxymoron in one sense, is, there's probably a lie involved in that. In one sense, it certainly is a policing tool, I think that's not the reason you do it. But ultimately, you know, if there's a subset of information there, that you're looking at, you're never going to relate that to the athletes in terms of a look at your data, you're not training hard enough, therefore, so they don't want the data that they collected. If you go down that path, that you're certainly looking at it from that sort of point of view, but you're not wanting them to think about it from that point of view. Otherwise, you'd lose the message, the messaging that you're trying to actually get there as the instructional piece which is where I come from in at all. So it's a bit like if an athlete is injured, and we work really well with soft tissue people and the doctors and that sort of stuff there too, you know, you feel far more comfortable. When there's an image of something, you know, when and the doctors are very capable people, you know, and they get to a point of time, I think it's this I think it's that you need you say, let's scan it let's, let's get the hard data, you know, so let's put the why As on the boat, let's, let's get the GPS out, let's let's not muck around here. So we can actually have some real data. But it can't be lost then to in terms of the artful use of that there to, you know, the, the asset might say this, I've seen that before, we've done this to try and rectify it before, is that relevant in this day and age or this particular cruel person as well, too. And that's where you're bouncing between the really important need for data. And the ability for you to say, well, that person rose too short, or they don't row hard enough, whatever it is, but then your mind has got to go to, well, how do I fix that? And so when you say it's not a policing tool, it's not for them. But it is, in my mind in terms of saying, well, that's not good enough. But I'm not going to go and tell them, It's not good enough, I'm going to try and work away to make them improve upon that. So sometimes, when we when we get interviewed or whatever, we don't get the right depth and necessarily the or the explanation about how we might use data from what particular purpose?
Paul Barnett 16:05
No, I think it's a great answer. And I think it will resonate with a lot of people listening, you know that the numbers are one thing, but the interpretation and communication, but that was another thing. So I think it's a it's a very applicable answer to all of us. I wanted to talk about flexibility. You're, you're an advocate of building flexibility into training so that it doesn't become too singular and focus and monotonous and so forth. But could you tell us why variety is such an important part of your philosophy?
Noel Donaldson 16:37
Well, I come from a physical education background. So the very first unit I studied in, in phys, Ed was sociology, the sociology of sport, then I can still remember my lecture, Rob sands. He wore sandals as a cool dude. And there were just a couple of things like day one, you know, in terms of, why are we doing this, you know, and then therefore, then the theory of play comes into process about it, you know, and if you have that sort of understanding, as a sports coach, what does a little kid want to actually do and get out of sport, and then as they grow, what do they want to get out of sport. So because that was sort of strong in my own learnings early on, then sports is just a journey. It's just an activity that they're doing in life. And there'll be a point in time as James Atkinson, I'm going to stay, keep doing this as long as I can, because I'm going to be longer retired, and I'm going to be in it.
And so if you realize that you're part of a journey, which might only be if you're lucky, a fifth of their life or something like that, then to that it's got to be part of their life. At the same time, you know, if you make it just all about that, and nothing else, then there's a there's a potential for missing the point, you know, and missing, is there something else that's going to stimulate them for why they actually want to actually do it? And so, as I've sort of gone on, you know, that that got gets more into mindset management and teaching skills in that area there too. And their own ability to understand mindfulness about, you know, why are they doing it? And, you know, Are they enjoying what they're actually doing? Can they live the real experience about how that so as a coach, you know, you're trying to make sure you're a part of that. So if I don't go down that journey there and create flexibility there. It's all working No, no play, no fun, no, no, no enjoyment to it. Now, that doesn't mean I'm just this Laissez Faire is the go I'm completely Natalie the opposite. But I certainly try and make sure that my eyes still tells me when this is getting a bit too serious. And when it needs to lighten up, you know, because you can't avoid can't succeed. [PB4]
On top of that the hard work that's just in our sport is a very physical sport, you you get a bit too loose a theory and just have a good time all the time there too. Unless you've got absolute brilliant parents who gave you the greatest talent the world's ever seen, then you can't succeed, you can't succeed without the hard work in it. But what defines the other side of it, that they've got the desire to want to do all the hard work as well? So it's a holistic what other sort of words you might want to use, plus being institutionalized now for 30 odd years within a multidisciplinary approach to you know, you, and having interviewed so many people for roles within sport as well, and the question, what's your thoughts about multidisciplinary, so you're involving all the practitioners and others later, so you don't have an understanding of all of that, then I'm not certain that you're ready to be an absolutely elite coach.
Paul Barnett 19:41
Now, when you're starting to coach a new crew, whether it's Perry can Hamish or whether it's a school's team, what are the things that you do first?
Noel Donaldson 19:52
It's like the old What do you do in your first 100 days of a job? So if you want to impress someone, you tell them you're going to do this and do that and whatever And you don't even know what the job is. So that's sort of like you're winging it a bit too much.
So I remember Hamish bond it was it was a great introduction to coaching those, those guys, you know, they run New Zealand and Alan because he was a performance director I thought that I would be a good fit for where they were. And Elena I talked about me going there a bit. And then the job is formal. And then I had to apply and those sort of things there. And then there was a set date so I arrived and trial that was the first day of trials. And then the plan was after trials where I would meet with Eric and Hamish that says Eric had a young Zack would have been not even two he would have been 18 months probably I'll and so he, he had nothing to do was gonna wait for the new coach, you know, he's just gonna get on with what he needed to get onto. And hey, this completely different person. So he dutifully waited, set this up here, I, we sat down, and we had a great sort of chat, and I knew who he was, he knew who I was, but it's all been from afar, you know, so you think, let's just start our relationship. And he said to me, he said, what you'll see is my all goes really deep. He said, Every coach of heads trying to fix that, you can try and fix that as well, too. And, and I remember saying, hammies, you haven't lost the race for four years, I think we'll just leave that how it is for the time being, and we'll just think about that a bit later on, you know, so, in other words, you know, my brain could have gone, right, he's shown me a challenge, you know, I'm an expert coach, you know, he sees as the problem, I'll go on a journey to fix that, you know, rather than go, why don't I just sit back for a little while, have a look at what's going on? Before I jump into something. And when I do coach education, certainly for our level two rowing coaching there. We review video of mistakes that are crews are made. And so if you ask any young up and coming rowing Coach, what is wrong with this crew there? They take the question. So literally, it's not funny. So they're looking to try and impress you are the blind skies of the year, or though it's messy, or they're not in time, they're giving us some sort of a clinical mistake associated with it. But what we try and teach is to say, find out the context that sits behind it. Who's his crew? What level of competition? Are they going into? How often do they train, how fit are they? So without context, you can't necessarily sort of sit and go in and go bing, you know, this is what we're actually going to do so. [PB5]
And I'm a very forthright sort of type person. So if anyone's just gonna just charge in relentlessly, it's me. But, you know, I probably made a couple of mistakes. And that's one of the point of view. So my first method is to sit back for a moment you find out everything you need to actually know before and then you start to get an idea, well, maybe I shouldn't just go down that path. Now there's a better way of looking at this. And the lights, I think, you know, for one, a better word context is really important before you then start to make a decision. And then you've got to be strong, you know, once you are, then you commit, I think, you know, ABC, these are things we really need to get hold of, straight off the bat, not XYZ down to XYZ. But no, no one can sort of handle all of that. So that's probably sort of the simple way of saying isn't it just don't go into here and experts right away, find out a little bit more about it. This is a funny story with with Derek and Derek and I know one another for a long period of time. And he's he's still like a pen and paper man in terms of programming. And he's not not a big on computers and that sort of stuff. And I think that's still great, wonderful trait in one sense, and other people can can survive in today's day and age with just the art and the feel of what they're actually trying to do. So I went to it. And I said, Mike, you've been coaching the peer for Have you got any data for me, you know, the files or any programs or anything that might help me, you know, with these guys, and he said, Oh, you're an experienced coach, you'll work it out. And I've gone okay, and so therefore, he threw me the chance to be able to say, Well, yeah, go and find out, you know, so. So if he couldn't provide that information, I respected that there too. That's the nature of that sort of person a little bit. And so I couldn't rush into it, because there's a whole missing piece in there that I had to unfortunately, there was a sports scientist who had a lot of science data and worked really well together. So eventually you pick up the pieces and you go, right, I think I know what I'm doing here. Now. I feel confident I can. I can run with all of this. So yeah, so you've got to think on your feet. You're going to make good decisions. You're going to seek information from whatever source it comes from.
Paul Barnett 24:55
Well here in Australia, I know that's Hamish generic for New Zealand. Here in Australia, you're most well known for coaching your son. For some, it's been well over 30 years now, but they weren't back to back the Olympic goals. And they were really beloved by so many people. And I didn't want to ask you about the gold medals in the races, what I wanted to ask you about was how that team would debrief after a race in order to identify areas that they wanted to improve on. And I asked that because they were well known as being very good mates. They had a laugh before the race, they didn't seem to take life too seriously. And yet, they achieved such wonderful things.
Noel Donaldson 25:38
Yeah, I think they have the same trait as most really elite athletes do in terms of being very good and honest in the debriefing phase. So the look on weakness and all of that there was a little bit of a game as well as part of the general nature, to think that you'd be throwing a Frisbee or kicking in Australian rules football around in the middle of a rowing boat park, you know, that set them aside and once and they're winning races. So all of a sudden, that's all the eyes are on them. And there's those cool dudes, and some of them are blond haired, they knew they liked surfing, those sort of things. So we that was a bit of play off on all of that. But it was also to keep them leveled and relaxing and enjoying the sport and everything as well. But certainly after performances, particularly if it hadn't gone quite as well as what you wanted to their honesty. And going straight to the point in the debriefing was really, really important from from that perspective, you know, so if there was a subpar performance, it was let's attack not attack the performance. But let's just go straight to the root of what the problem actually is. We didn't do this, you know. So therefore, what do we need to do to make sure we don't do that, then things often a habit forming as well, too. And so you had to learn levels of tolerance and how you can rectify things, though, they were a really important part for many years of the Victorian kings cup crew. And the state crew would train generally once a week, maybe sometimes twice a week, then was a Thursday night. And every Thursday night, it was the first half the session was terrible than the second half of pick up sticks. So you can debrief that and go Well Come on, let's get on. Excited. But but it did repeat, you know, and you tried to not repeat, you know, the last thing you want to do is not have as productive session. So there's a level of tolerance you go, what do we expect here? And it's about class, we're not in that often. And so therefore, what do we what do we expect it's been good? Or do we reflect on the positives well to you will finish really well, you know, so not all not as bad. And once we come to race, we'll roll the back bit more often. And then you know, that early, like a form will probably start to disappear a bit. And we'll be okay. And a bit the same with them Prix racing, they generally do 1000 meter piece a couple of days before racing. And it was always slow, because we were always trying to row a rhythm. And we were trying to work on our strengths. And our strengths were just this wonderful rhythm for the middle of a race. And that's where we could sort of do them really, really good work that rode really well, that's if we underpinned the work in that pre pre race a couple of days earlier, then generally the boat didn't go in, and that would frustrate them. And that was quite regular, you know, so you'd have to say, Well, okay, well, let's just, we've got that one out of our system. And with the knowledge of that, we're not gonna make the same mistake again. And so they're really honest, and that sort of debriefing sense and you're really quite serious in it. [PB6]
Before then there'd be like a switch, and the switch would be right, we're now going back to our a personality, which is cool dudes and having a good time. So. So that was nice, that made the job of a coach quite actually easy, because you weren't trying to rein in a bunch of sort of happy go lucky sort of fellows type thing there too, that you couldn't get them serious about their performance, they just had this wonderful ability to switch on switch off, that I think a lot of young athletes today still struggle a little bit with. And so. And again, that was part of their, their nature. And they were super talented, but they work hard, hard enough. And therefore being honest about what you needed to do. And then and there were stories in the book and those sort of things as it would be with Hamish and Eric there to where every now and again, you really had to address something so therefore, you had got very serious on a few occasions which was just like readdressing what you're therefore what you're doing what you're not doing, how are we going to get move forward from here there too. And so they become sort of folklore type set situations, resurrect for one of you know, someone who might be going off the rails, but I still regard that as pretty normal and it's pretty I don't think he can survive year in year out and everything is roses all the time, you know, you got to expect to fall over every now and again. And then it's how you and how strongly you get yourself up and get yourself going again.
Paul Barnett 29:53
Did they have any words or phrases that they would use when They wanted to really highlight something and make it serious.
Noel Donaldson 30:05
Yeah, I mean, that's a long time ago, so and I suffered from Alzheimer's disease, you see, so trying to remember all of those sorts of things there. I mean, we, depending on who sat in what seat within the boat and other people, when the actual rowing was taking place itself, the guys were really, really good at calling, particularly Mike Mackay, when he sat in the in the two seat, you know, he, he was more able to read the play even better than he can even deliver himself, you know, he was actually an absolute master at it. From that sort of point of view. James Tompkins had those keys at a different size, and he had a different way of going about doing it, but he had huge respect within the crew. So he would be less verbose, you wouldn't be reading the play quite so much, you know, just a little bit of difference in their personality, but you needed to let them be themselves but no, who had what responsibility at what stage and certainly things that they would call in training and within races that they knew were sort of buttons, if you push that button, things go well, so I can't remember exactly every word and phrase, but I can remember the process, you know, quite well.
Paul Barnett 31:12
So now, when you finished in Australia, and you were appointed, to your new role with Rowan, New Zealand, your new boss, Alan Carter, who you spoke about earlier, he said, we were looking for someone who would achieve results as a head coach in sweep all boats, had worked successfully in a high performance program, had the ability to develop the maintain a strong team culture. And now has all these attributes. It's a it's a great summary, I think of your career and what you've been able to achieve. But it was the last bit I wanted to dig in a little bit with and I wanted to ask you, can you tell us what a strong team culture in rowing looks like?
Noel Donaldson 31:51
Yeah, in one says referring to that was about managing the size and depth of groups of people, as well, New Zealand at that stage had done extremely well, in small boats. So the team was small and very talented. And what they wanted to do was to build it. And so the men's and women's eights, particularly in quads, and so to get more of their athletes into teams, and performing as well as the small bites, so sort of referring a little bit more who's got some experience in dealing with bigger numbers. And therefore, along with bigger numbers comes the need to have a good culture, you know, the more people involved in something, the more important it is for your culture to be strong, so that everyone's on the same page together. So Australia being a bigger country, and particularly when we had cruise base within so the AI S framework, which now in rowing in Australia is that's the Men's National Training Center, we have a Women's National Training Center, in New South Wales in Penrith. And it's a matter of putting the best people together and getting them to work for the, for the common good. And so having been a leader within that environment there, you know, you've probably had some experiences will have, how do you make this work because they're actually teammates on one sense. But they're enemies on the other because they race against one another all the time. And there's only so many seats in this boat, or that boat or, or the other boat. And so getting some clear messaging across about where priorities lie, and that, you know, we're here every day for the common good of what we're trying to do. And all of you are important, but at the end of the day, we can only put two in the pier, we looked at four and the four, and we're going to have to understand and respect one another to do it. To be to be honest, I don't know that I did a really, really good job of that. I don't think I did a really bad job at it. But I've, I was always one step ahead of myself about what I thought it needed to look like and be like, and I got frustrated in one sense, because I didn't, I couldn't quite get on the on the athlete wavelength and understand necessarily where they were coming from, you know, and, and sometimes I'm almost too simple in how I think, you know, and you've got athlete number 10. Realistically, you know, you ask a whole group of people and that athletes in the middle of the pack, they actually want to be in the top couple of top couple, you know, in my mind is taking me to What don't you get you know, you, you're number 10, you're not going to be number one or two, you know, but I knew I couldn't go down that path and explain that they'll say that to them, then then trying to work out. How do I let this athlete know that they're not at the top of the tree, and that there's other opportunities for them. So I found that quite a struggle to be able to be as an effective leader as if I look back as I would have liked to have actually been so I don't know if other people looking at it might say he did a reasonably good job, and therefore is more experienced than anyone was in New Zealand at doing it. But I still found that quite a challenge and the current head coach of the mainstream except that he was one, he was my senior coach and I was a mentor for him. When I was there, sort of through the 2009, to 12, that sort of period there too, and he's really good at it, you know, he's some, some coaches, his leaders have that little bit of different personality where he's strong in what he says. But he's really meaningful in terms of being other, let them have an understanding. And we all learn we learn from one another as well, too, so produces good data sets to say, well, here's the ranking fellas, you know, let's not get too upset about it a little well, too. So I think if I actually went back into that environment, or New Zealand, again, I'd be far better at doing it a second time around by what I wasn't good at, as part from what I was probably more experienced, and maybe better at than anyone in New Zealand was at that particular stage. But to say that I actually thrived in that environment, doing all the right things, I did find that a challenge, you know, and we had a couple of good years, with the men's eight, and then we had a few years struggling. And then of course, best thing they did was get rid of me, and then they left, and then have enough time to rebuild. And then some wonderful stories have come out of that, that the be part of the journey with those guys that I started with, but to see what they did in 2021, in Tokyo winning the men's gold in the women's silver, and having the women win a gold medal before that as well, too, to think that I played a small role in that I'm really, really proud of, but to think that I had anything really to do with the end success, that'd be that'd be telling a quite a Porky pie from that sort of point of view. So yeah, I was the right person, probably by way of, you know, world experiences in one sense, but even I wasn't brilliant at doing all of that. So when you tell that to a journalist, of course, that's a bit of a good story, you know, to tell them that that's what, that's what this guy's here for. But at least I've been in the environment, you know, at least I'd been in big centers, had a far better understanding about all that at the time. So I was probably the right person. But it wasn't necessarily that I was a guru in it by any imagination, or
Paul Barnett 37:06
maybe not a, maybe not a guru. But as you did allude to there, you weren't good at getting people to work for the common good. And I'd like to pick up on this theme, because what's really unique about your story, is that twice in your career, you've coached teams to back to back Olympic goals, which is very, very rare. What is this taught, you know, when you reflect on what is this taught you about getting teams in sync with each other?
Noel Donaldson 37:38
Yeah, I think I don't know whether necessarily with a winning them, whether it be back to back or even if you want three times in a row, for example. You know, if you think of some, like Drew game, James Tompkins, you know, what Drew, you know, he went back to back to back, you know, as an athlete, but each of them are a separate challenge in their own right. And on average along Football Club supporter at the moment, you know, they're the premiers. And Chris got, you know, as I've said, a sensational job there, too. And he'll wax lyrical, and probably tell people, whether he wants to believe it, he probably I'd say, you know, and I guess, you know, he's quite heartfelt, that well forget about last year, you know, that's, that's gone. This is a new campaign. We've got different personnel in there as well, too.
So I think all the way through that, you know, I've always taken that attitude, you know, and it's quite tough for people who have actually won because then the slippery slope, and if you don't win, you've lost principle. And that puts a different level of pressure on an expectation. And those are things you know, the first time around, it's okay, you might have been favourites or second favorite, and you go in as an expectation you're going to do okay, but it wasn't the second time around, you're defending your title. So it brings a different level of pressure, both externally and internally in terms of what you're trying to do. But you've got to try and not get too caught up in all that sort of stuff. And each campaign has its own goals, and you're trying to, you're trying to achieve those goals that will give you the result in those particular performances. But you do know that it's sitting sitting on the on the shoulder all the time, the pressure and as a coach was never worried or feared me because it was a very easy cliche for people to say, of course, if they win again, it's because they're good. And if they lose over your fault, you know, you go yep. And I never get up in the morning. Looking at it in that sort of fashion, as a coach, you never saw that sort of pressure, you know, but the athletes I'm sure, you know, they they would have lived that a lot. And as you hear often they will say after certainly the second time round is what a relief that actually was to get it out of the way so it's probably easier to win three times because you've already won twice, you know, but I think you just got to tell Each campaign is a separate campaign and look at where you're at in those journeys. And certainly with the for change your personnel change the seating, is that in itself is enough stimulus to sort of come at things a little bit different way. And different personalities. So if you thought you were just gonna try and rubber stamp that's, I don't think that's unlike it might be if you're an individual an individual sport and if you can run 10 seconds, that'll get you to win and you do it again. Well, that might be little bit different not not in our sport, there's so many moving parts.[PB7]
Paul Barnett 40:36
One final question if I could, no, because I can see it's the sun's coming up. And you're always going to be coming in soon to their for their daily workout. But I'd like to preface this final question with a quote. And it's actually from you, when you say, That's my motivation isn't about me, I have this inherent desire to want to make younger people better at what they're actually doing, and provide an opportunity for them. And I know you've, you've alluded to this kind of philosophy through this interview, but many of these younger people you coached and now adults, and they're coaching themselves. And I'm wondering, how do you hope they describe the influence you've had on their lives?
Noel Donaldson 41:18
Yeah, it's interesting, when because you sent me that question beforehand, it's probably the one I reflect on maybe because it's last that might show you some sort of my concentration span or something. But it was the one I did reflect on a little bit. I think when you've been through the journey with athletes like that, and you've shared so many experiences, that they're trying to get on a similar sort of journey and replicate in their way sort of what coaching practice is, I'm not certain necessarily, you would expect them to come to you and say, You've taught me so many lessons, I will now be able to impart the knowledge of those lessons on other people, I would see them has been more seamless. And if I've done a good job at seamless, you know, that they wouldn't have reflected on, they'll just be doing little bits and pieces of what you might have had along their journey. But the importance is that they're creating their own journey. And if you were to be involved in any sort of mentorship, or whatever, you would be really trying to go down that path, you know, not, this is how I did it. If you do what I did, you have a good career as well, too, because that's complete rubbish. So I would certainly be thinking about it there too. And if you've taught them enough, you'd I don't think you need to reflect on it. [PB8]
The more important one, or the other people who who rowing was just the thing that they did as part of their life, and you taught them lessons for life in that journey. So I get excited still by kids I taught at school or coached at school, who still drop you lines or still swimming marathons and dropping a line. What we're done, I've done, you know, how would he have managed this, I still got his words ringing in my ear, when it got tough in the last kilometer and you go, wow, you know, that's, I take more heart out of that than the people who you had longer journeys with because you've done everything, you know, you it wasn't just a short part of the life we were they got something that I can really reflect on, you know, the long coaching journey was a lot of reflection and said should be seamless, but it's the, it's the kids who it's more impactful when you have impactful impact on people that you know, you like to think that later on in life, they can say, that was really important. I learned some lessons from that. And I'm still doing those things today, as a result of what you taught me I'm going to that's good. You know that, that ego? Not ego, but that stimulates you to so I'd like to keep doing that and keep giving other young people an opportunity to learn, you know, if I've got something to give, and can I make them better for it there too. Because some people externally would probably say my ego is off the charts that but I don't think that's any motivation for why I get up or you know, any honor or glory or anything in the whole thing. If I can't make them better today than they were yesterday, then I'm in the wrong caper, you know, that that's the big sign to retire and give it away. But and so I'm quite heartfelt from that sort of point of view, you know, if I, if I don't sleep at night will because some of these we referenced earlier about data or approving or having to fix something, whatever it'll be because I'm scratching my head trying to work out. How can I make this better? This guy does this and does adult school this and that she needs to do this? How can I get part of that journey to be able to make that person better? So when that fire goes out, well, that's game over, you know, give it away, read the paper. Go fishing. And
Paul Barnett 44:53
I think that fire river goes out with great coaches. No, but let's, let's see. It's been fantastic. It's been the NLD this morning, it's it's been a great record time to recollect for me from all those great memory memory moments the Awesome Foursome gave us. So thanks very much for your time. And I wish you all the best for the season ahead.
Noel Donaldson 45:12
Thank you, Paul, and keep up your good work telling these stories. I you might expect a call at some stage from Bill devraient, who he heads up the coaching unit at the AI s. He knows of you and of your podcast. And I ran into him just just out of chance, actually last night and we've been sort of colleagues and mates for 30 odd years too. And I referenced I was doing this this morning there too. So there's people out there that would maybe like to get on that bandwagon of yours at the same time there to get some good stories tell them there's
Paul Barnett 45:47
plenty of room on the bandwagon. I'll follow up with you on him later on. Thanks. Not
Noel Donaldson 45:54
at all same night.