Norma Plummer Edit
Wed, 9/22 7:16PM • 33:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, coach, game, coaching, team, lost, australian, captain, new zealand, played, eddie jones, win, felt, started, learn, bit, thought, gerard, world, scoreboard
SPEAKERS
Norma Plummer, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Normal climate. Good morning or rather, good afternoon to you over there in Australia and welcome to the Great coach's podcast normal. Can we just start with something really simple? Where are you in the world today? And what have you been doing so far?
Norma Plummer 00:12
Well, totally in lockdown, because I'm in Victoria, and I'm in Melbourne suburb of barrack in Melbourne, and yeah, totally bored. I think there's only so many things you can do around the house or projects, you might think up for yourself, you just want to get out. It's a little bit depressing at the moment. But we live in hope,
Paul Barnett 00:30
normal, I'll do my best to alleviate your boredom, taking you on a journey back through your long and storied career over the next hour or so. But it really is a career that has spanned the world. We'll talk about the many countries and of course, the many great teams you've coached along the way. But could I start by just name dropping a few of the great coaches that you've had experience with this? Of course, just Jess, there will be we were just talking about her and minute ago, the coach of the English team, there's Eddie Jones, David Parkin, and of course the iconic Joyce Brown. So from this experience, what is it you think that the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
Norma Plummer 01:07
I think for me, I think they bring change to a team. Most of all, I think you got to bring your own personality in your coaching style and your philosophy, I think it's important that people get to know you as the person. And I'd expect you to understand the logistics and the history of just what you're taking on. And so that you can bring in change as it's needed. And I think that's what players want to have to the excitement of something new, different approaches, and to learn more. And maybe you only often need one thing to put into your game that can improve it. And I think that's really important. [PB1] I did like what Eddie Jones was doing when he was he was coaching the brumbies and I was at the I ss, head coach there at the time, and I picked up the phone. And this gentleman said, Oh, is that normal? And I suggest he said, Oh, it's Eddie Jones here. And I'll pause for a moment because I thought, that's my strength and conditioning coach, he used to ring up and make out he was some, you know, famous person. And I said, cut it out Trent and cost there was dead silence. And he said, he said, No, you are normal plier that David Park and rode up in the spoke and I said, All yours, feeling stupid then at that stage. But I found that he wanted to come over and talk to me about my philosophy of coaching. And he came in and we sat there and chatted when but what I realized he was doing he was going for the Australian job. And he was going around the different coaches at the IAS which I thought was really smart. And so he's going into an interview where he was picking up a lot of different things he could use. As I said, you might only need one thing that you can put into your little group coaching. For me it was I spoke to me about having the options, if you apply as a virtually running on same as you've got to be able to give them options that can change up their game very quickly. So I did enjoy that interview with him.
Paul Barnett 03:11
Normal in 1977. In 1978, you were the captain coach of the Victorian state team that won consecutive national championships. And in 1996, and 2000. You were the head coach that won consecutive World Youth Cup titles. What do you remember about this,
Norma Plummer 03:28
the bit about the playing coach was a kid, I don't want to put my sport down. But really, I went to the moment nipple club is a 14 year old and played all my career there. But if you were named the captain of your team, we had a figurehead and Henderson who was head of the club, but didn't sit on sideline to coach you, you were put together and we had like seven times. But she was able to pull in all of the Australian schoolgirls whoops, because she was a head of the Australian school girls as well. So we used to get this cream coming into the club. So the club had this great competition within itself, but you were left to your own devices. So if you were picked as Captain, you had to write out the score sheet and collect the money because we always had to pay and we played and then quarter time, half time. There's no one to give you like any coaching direction. So all of a sudden, I'm looking at me because I'm the captain. But absolutely the best grounding I think I could have ever had. I not only learned about my own position, I was taking it in on everybody on the court. And so that's why in 1977, one of the board members came up and said to me all look Victoria haven't got a coach. And that was the only time you've got a coach was if you're in the Victorian team. So that's where I was under Joyce Brown. And so she said we'd really like you to coach the team and I said, Oh, I thought I was still good enough to play. And she said well, you Do playing coach you have all along and you're winning, I think it's been the greatest grounding, I am aware of other players on the court and what they're doing, I also read a lot of body language. And I love, I can always start to identify when a player is what do I call is stop processing. And I start running around like a truck with their head cut off or something that they're just not, they're losing as far as how to play up against their opponent. Now, you would bring that player off, and you might be able to show them how to counteract what's happening to them, and get them back out there and get somewhere but some have too far gone. So you've got to know when to make your change. And I think that has helped me enormously over the years.
Paul Barnett 05:46
So in 2004, you're appointed as the Australian coach. And what's interesting is you go on to lose eight of your first 10 games against the big rival in New Zealand. Now, I'm sure that must have given you a few moments to pause and perhaps question yourself in your approach, or, or maybe not. But when it comes to helping others build self belief, are there any techniques that you found to be better than others?
Norma Plummer 06:08
I think you got to have self belief in your own ability. I think it's very important, but viewed understand that time Australia had lost and the 2003 World Champs in Jamaica, New Zealand, I think, was quoted by Joe McIntosh, who was the coach at the time said, I think Australia, we were always there. But I think they'd started doing things better than we had no taken what we've done, and they were doing it maybe better. And they deserved that when there was that was for sure. So when I took over, of course, there was about four retirements. And then there was about three or four of them, that top grouping that got major injuries and all broke down. I think, as I said all the great part about it was because I'd been in Australian Institute of Sport and strain on the 21. Coach, when I started to filled with those players in they knew me, they understood what it was about. And yeah, it took I think it's got a 10 day, Tom comm games that was with Danny one, two and 816 or something, and then after that, but then I sort of changed and I won seven and I only won two, because the change came at the top in Australia, and things settle down and then went on to win the World Cup and walked into that world cup, where it was in New Zealand in Auckland. For some reason, I just felt we would not lose that game and New Zealand used to set up the full court press. And I did a lot of work on that. But I and I had to, you know, really because you get a limited time really with the Australian team. And also at that time, the Australian nipple group had gone with the players union, and they all went on strike. So where I'd had four or five day camps organized, they didn't turn up because this fight was going on about wanting to be paid and I was all for it. I think they were giving so much time and they needed to leave taking their holidays or missing out on wages at work. So all of that was impacting too so honey got one session with them before we went New Zealand and and lost three love in that first series. But But as the site gradually but surely, we were able to turn things around and with this zone that New Zealand put up. It was quite a pressure situation. But I've worked out if we we worked on one side and we did some dummy runs and drew them across the court, this channel would come down the other side and then we'd have someone just pop out swing along ball. Well, firstly, we had to learn to swing this long ball or do remember lizelle so I thought God it's going up to the sky and back but they all finally got it because I also devised school session of no drill that put that in a so that we constantly were learning to develop this pass. And it opened us up beautifully. And that's why I just felt so confident once they got hold of that. And they knew one chord and plus the hardest thing when you're coaching players is for them to identify change on court. So when things if they got started to get back on top, we had to have that other option. I can remember going out what was one of the breaks and 91 Berto and lorawan burdo Wing Attack and center. They were applying the overload and I said look, I think you're slightly overdosing it now and Natty Vaughn Berto said to me, but it's working normally. And I said, Yeah, but the minute it doesn't, we need to split it. And that channel will come down the middle. And so I will to execute that whole game plan. Fantastic. And I think if you can show players, the options of how to get out of situations. I think you haven't for life as a player.
Paul Barnett 09:55
Oh in 2007 and 2011. As he said the team wins the netball World Championship. But it wins the second one there and overtime. In New Zealand, again, what does this teach you normally about performing under pressure?
Norma Plummer 10:10
Well, the performing under pressure, we, we would have to do all of that at training, of course, you have to have you, your players under pressure and building it up. And the thing is, when you do it in training, I used to say to them, it doesn't matter if you make the mistake, that's why we're doing it a training. So we learn how to handle that under the pressure. And of course, you don't make a mistake. But once you really started to handle the pressure, you got better than decision making on what you were going to do[PB2] . And as I said, if we had more than one option, you needed at least maybe three leads coming but not all at once. They had to be split off. So you knew that you had an option, and you could get out of that situation. So because in 2010, in Delhi, we lost a New Zealand in the longest game ever in the double overtime. And I'd lost a couple of defenders before them Julie colorido, because I'd lost Liz Ellison, Gerard for the 2006 Commonwealth Games, and such volatile players. But we would just a bit short under in the Commonwealth Games in defense, and I felt Maria philau was killing us on the shot. We like played, she played unbelievable, she had the most outstanding game. And of course, we lost that. So if to win the World Cup, I had to figure out, right, we've got to be able to nail this. And I did a lot of work on that. But if it found the secret of when she missed how we would defend that shot, I think she went from shooting 94% down to about 74 and made a major difference for us to get over the line. And also, they were a great team then. So we had to one of the things was that selection for that Australian team. I'd lost Sharon McMahon went down Achilles, so we'd lost virtually our boys captain and probably the best athletic play you'd ever see. And next minute then I'll lose while being attacked. Lauren nurse did her knee. So Dr. selection that the is at the camp. And basically, Clark Perry, he used to be the sports psychologist with Australian swimming. He's now back in Canada. He's a Canadian, but he was working at the areas and I asked him to come down and just be around for any of the girls if they want to have a chat. But he looked at me and he said, What's wrong with you? And I said, Well, yeah, I said, I'll go select this time, Clark and I said I've, I've got an idea in my head. I think I know what I want. What I'm not sure I'll get buy in from the pliers. And he said, Well, why don't you ask them? I thought this is a great listen. He said you got a leadership group. And I said, Jerry said we'll bring him in. And I said that it's a selection. He said, Well, you you're not going to select them. And I said, No, you're right. They will be in the team. So I did I bought them in and I'd spoken to my two selectors. And I said, right I have, I have this vision that I certify bring in a change. And we're sort of maybe a bit down across Wing Attack and and gold attack, which is where we'd lost the two players. So if I bring in Chelsea Pittman, she can cover both. And if I bring you near and Bill, she can cover both. And all of a sudden it was well the three players said amen on that. And Gerard said, I'd play with Pittman any day. So all of a sudden, I got buy in and what a clock and said to me, that's the believability. You see, companies and I worked at a desk for 13 years loved it there, right. But they often used to have were had a big conference and I had this vision of where they were going to go and but sometimes it just didn't gel for a few of us. So you see if you don't get buy in from your workers or from your team to understand you've got to have that believability about what you're doing. And if they don't believe you don't get the same thing. You know, you don't get the the end result you're looking for. But I felt I got the end result on this because it was fantastic. It turned out really good. And I remember Pittman played a great game on Wing Attack for us and was very pleased about that. We also got on to that shot on to Maria and that also helped us.[PB3]
Paul Barnett 14:35
Indeed, no more on in researching for today I read a lot about you and you often talk about you give this advice to a lot of people actually the need to control your emotions is the coach so that you can communicate clearly with the team and help them recover after a loss. Are there any Top Tips you've got on controlling your emotions?
Norma Plummer 14:57
Well, one was the Catherine Cox He was in the team came up to me one day and just said, some when you're sitting there and you're not carrying on or screaming or yelling, she said, it makes us feel so much more aware that we're we're doing the job. I think that one hit me because I hadn't actually thought about it before. So New Zealand used to sail, never smile. But you know, when you're coaching, even if you're winning, I don't have to sit there with a grin on my face, I'm concentrating on the game. If you're losing my when I get a green, big grin on my face, it's like, it was about trying to keep the persona together. And so that that wasn't rubbing off on the players panic can come in at any time. And as I say, a lot of players, when they go into that panic mode, you sometimes don't get them back. So you got to be very careful of how you're, you're presenting yourself. And I think when you lose, you know that they've all done their best. And it's now us starting to brighter better often didn't go into the big talk after the game, I would often leave it a day or so. And then we'd sit down when everybody's emotions are dropped. And then we'd sit and talk about it. You could do it rationally and people could have a look at maybe where were we were not hitting the mark or whatever, but and not decisive enough. So I think that that gives her a better conversation. Sometimes he motion straight after unless it's a massive win. Of course UK just want to have a champagne and enjoy it.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 16:28
The Independent newspaper in England one slave, would you wanted the nastiest coaches in sport. But the article also listed you alongside Sir Alex Ferguson. With that assessment, there was a few others in there too, which doesn't make the bad company
Norma Plummer 16:42
being listed without Sir Alex, but no. One report in all the interviews, she really did mnos with some of the smart comments she was making. And I had a crack back, I think and she thought I was then you know, very nasty, but I thought she was out of order. So I'm not backward in coming forward if I think someone's actually stepping over the line and trying to put a few of the boots in here in there. So yeah, so she just got one back. But of course, she had the upper hand of writing it up, never had it written up again. And of course, New Zealand I did have a couple of sessions on from the media, but they soon learned that it was a sense of humor. And I think well welcome though there. Now
Paul Barnett 17:28
what I wanted to do is actually link this comment about you being nasty, with your own coaching style, which you describe as authoritarian And I wanted to ask you, do you think this style of coaching, still has a place in high performance sport,
Norma Plummer 17:47
I think that there's different levels of that. I'm not there screaming and yelling, and everything. But what I want players to understand is, if you put a lot of time in on, you know how you're going to beat your opposition, you want to be able to get them to carry that out in the end, or don't have favorites. As such, every team I've ever coached, I said to them that this is performance based on make no bones about that. And I've taken off captains have taken off those captains, that doesn't wear me You never labor, the team for keeping a captain on who's having a bad day, or a player of any description, no matter who they are in that team. And if you've worked your bench Well, you need to use that player players start to understand and it's really fair and equal. And it is performance based. So if that's the return, I mean, seriously, I I just think there's been a lot said about on let the players play? Well, I've seen a bit of that. And I've seen a lot of bad losses with it. If you've got a senior group that you've had for five, six years, and I virtually know exactly how we're all ticking. Yeah, you can let them go out and do that. And they might just need one or two little corrections here and there. But if you've got some younger players in the team, who don't actually understand their role, I think you're going to get egg on your face, you really need to let them know how they fit in. And one of the best questions you can ever ask a player at a selection when you interview them on individuality. Like who what they bring into them. You say to them, so where do you think you sit in the pecking order in this time, and you'd be amazed at how many of them just don't actually write themselves. So you've got then the odd ones like Alice, Alice is going to tell you well on Captain but you're going to get a younger player who's going to turn around say, Oh, I'm just hoping I get a game. They don't actually challenge so you want to teach him to learn to challenge those situations. Don't look at the senior players that they're going to be the ones so I think it depends on how you you look at code. Stiles mine is very much giving the player every bit of my total knowledge that I have, and trying to make them better as a player. [PB5] And as I say, when you get for that comment that I was the nasty coach where you don't get emails or text messages don't got one the other day from Monica Gerard, because she's been overseas, and I heard her mum wasn't well, so I just text to see how she'd go. And at the end, she said, you know, miss your face plumb. So there you go. It's, I think some people could look at it that way. Because when you're standing on the floor, and you're coaching, and the music's going, and it's full blow, and you'll look like you're screaming where you are, because you're trying to get a message over. And it might look like but it's, it's actually just trying to get your message across. Overall the noise of the crowd, you know, you got 15 20,000 people, they're all screaming, the music's going. And it's only half time that and in the latter part of the years, we actually got to go into the back rooms, because we got 12 minutes instead of five. So we could go in and I could actually talk to the team. So has affected my voice over the years on my dad. I'm pretty raspy on it now. So so you know, yeah, I'm not sure I agree with the comment. But I certainly know that I am direct. And I know that basically, I will always say it's performance based. We owe the team more than the individual. Because that's the job to win. And don't ever let anyone say it's, it's not. I see a lot of coaches get the SEC when they don't win.
Paul Barnett 21:35
No more. I have a great quote for you actually talking about winning, you say it's great to have a win for sure that the scoreboard is incidental. Now, for many of us, the scoreboard is very hard to look past in life, whether it's the scoreboard or the balance sheet or the month end report. Can you share with us a time you were able to improve a team by using this philosophy?
Norma Plummer 21:55
Yeah, because when you're coaching, and it was, as I said, the Australian under 21 went to the US in 99. And we weren't in the National League and the new Commonwealth Bank trophy competition that started and I was fighting with the CEO, Pam Smith, who is very good friend that I wanted the team in the National League. They weren't happy they weren't going to put us in we were a development program. And yes, we were. But in the end, after a couple of years, we finally got in. And of course, everybody said Oh, they'll be finished down the bottom though. They won't make it and well, I had news for them. So you get all these young players in and cause I can remember the first game at the Australian Institute of Sport in the stadium that and we lose my 20 goals to New South Wales whips. So I said to the players afterwards, so it's taking us like 1516 passes to get the ball from the baseline back down to where shooters it's taking them seven. And that's because they understand the game better. And the timing of moves and how to work space. So but that's what we're here to work on now. Second round, in their hometown, in Sydney, we beat them. And virtually those kids stood up like you wouldn't believe played a game plan. Sensational. So know the scoreboard sometimes does not mean much. If you're coaching those players, it's the improvement you can get out of them. And I loved every minute of it. So yeah, there's your wins and when not and when you've got a development program, you got to sometimes keep changing that team up so they all hands learned to handle the pressure. And I'm not looking at the scoreboard then that this program has developed so much for Australian nipple, I was delighted to see them they and we not only beat them we also got sandpipers, we also got Firebirds, so I think we finished fifth. And they all thought we'd finished. But we didn't say There you go. I think things can be done. Young play. Never underestimate the exuberance of youth. That's fantastic.
Paul Barnett 24:04
Let's talk about exuberance of yours because you go off to South Africa in 2015. And you take the job as the head coach of that team. And you ended up taking them from eight in the world to fourth, which is a great achievement. And when you took over a coach, I imagine there would have been a set of perhaps diversity and inclusion issues that you hadn't felt or dealt with before as a coach. I wanted to ask you about that. And if it was true, how did you deal with it? And is there any learning for the rest of us from that experience?
Norma Plummer 24:32
Well, originally you see I'd gone over I'd been invited over the CEO had been chasing me since I'd won the World Champs in 2011 in Singapore, but then I said no because I was going to Perth to set up their program for West Coast fever. But after that three years, she was still ringing me to go over and she said would you come in and come to the camp. So that was in the February of 2015 NASA All Yeah, I could do that. When I cross. And basically, all I think I had about 30 players and I ran out two weeks clinic with them alongside their coaches, one thing I found straight away is they would have in the first week, I virtually absorbed that and took him what they were doing. next two weeks, they asked me if I would run it. And I said, Well, the first thing we're not going to do and not going to be three hours. So they'd have the pliers there for three hours. And they do a bit of work, and then they'd be sitting down. And it might have been six, seven minutes before they go back out and quote again. So I said, I'm not gonna cut this down, we're not doing three hours, I said, we can do this in two and a half. And the first we've done will be warm up. And the last 15, there'll be recovery, but the two hours in between, we're going to be working. And so you realize that they were a little bit behind what was actually happening. They weren't building up any stamina with the pliers. So I left after that, but then got the phone call. For some weeks, I think they'd gone off and played a European Cup, and they lost to England by about 36 goals. And I then got the phone call, we'll come back and take them to the World Champs in Sydney. And so I said, Yes, but I said, Look, I'll do that on one proviso I can have my own system coach, because this will be a big job. And I want to have time to be coaching the coaches. I need someone that can take with me, and we can move this along. So that's when I rang Nicole Cusack. And she came in the MS shooting specialist. And when I went then I had I think just before we left, we had three, three games, one against Malawi, and Libya. And so while we were I was running the camp before we actually played, I noticed when I walked out all the players that the black players were here, and the white players were off to the right. So I walked over and also so watch this. I said I'm sorry, ladies. But there's got to be inclusion here. And we're all in together. So I made them all moving together. So you got to remember, you're working with a different culture. But they had to realize that I go in and you're an athlete, I'm just looking at you as an athlete. And so there was a lot of things like that I had to be aware of, but I also needed to show them that it was, as I say, fair, and equal and performance based. [PB6] So we get our first game. And the captain is a gold attack. And she was playing terrible. So I took her off. And the assistant coach was a South African sitting me. She said, you've taken a cabinet Captain off and I said, Yes. It's not playing well, I don't know what's going on. But we're not going to lose this game because someone isn't performing. So I changed it. So I found out after the game that she actually had been sick. But no one told me You see, and I said, Well, that's the first listen, you don't hide those things from coach. And I said to the player who turned out to be fantastic. And with me all the way through Liverpool. Look, you need to say things if you're sick, I said that goes against your performance. And I said, I'll be playing you tomorrow, if you can tell me you're okay. And she was I think she might have got a bit of a tummy bug. And she was just sick at that time. So they all were in shock, especially the black players that I'd taken off the captain. But then once they all started to understand about the fair and equal, nobody cared if you were taken off, they knew it was performance, it just stops a lot of anxiety within the team. And I just love their ability. They were athletic, they just needed some know how. And we won those three games before we went to New Zealand for a pre game there before we went into the world. But I said to the CEO and the president at the time, this is about your team. You've been being beaten by Australia, England, New Zealand, anywhere between 55 and 35 goals over all these years, we've got to bring that score line down. And it's not going to happen immediately. But it will, I think we can get them there. And gradually, but surely, we started dropping those score lines, because we got South Africa to put us into a quad series. So they were constantly coming up against Australia, England, New Zealand. And they were then learning about the intensity and the pressure and how much fitter they had to be. And why we were doing that was because if we wanted to compete if you want to be there, this is what it's going to take. and South Africa embraced all of it. In fact, one of the players said to us one time, boy, I wish I knew this 10 years ago,
Paul Barnett 29:43
no matter in this interview, there's been multiple times where you describe yourself as forthright and you talk about this tough love approach. Is there a person or event in your life that helps you shape that philosophy?
Norma Plummer 29:55
Well, I was coached, as I said by Joyce Joyce brown Yes. Was Pretty ruthless at times. But I'll tell you what you do learn off someone like that as well, and other coaches, what not to do. So a lot of things that I didn't like. And so I always promised myself that if I was coaching, I'd coach the 12 players ahead, not seven that were the thought of going to be best on the court. Because if you didn't have your backup of your bench hearing and to be in trouble, the way nipple was going, and where we were going forward, and all everything the players were playing, but we might have to make everything fresh, but we had to have new new style drills, we had to have them been under pressure drills, and we need to keep it fresh all the time. So though, even warm ups, because that when they're doing it all time, you can be same as and you don't want that you want them to really embrace what's going on and that they learning something different, something new. And that's challenging for you, when there's certain things in the game you you have to keep doing repetition on but as much as you can, we like to change it up. [PB7] So what they were doing at Club would be different if they were in the Australian team or different if they were in the South African Proteas. So that's probably one of the areas that we worked hard on as well. But
Paul Barnett 31:13
no matter if I could find a time machine that I could take you back to that 14 year old he was invited by Ian Henderson down to the Melbourne, the Melbourne netball club. What advice would you give her
Norma Plummer 31:25
keep doing what you did, because that playing coaching role, I think gave me more insight to coaching or learning on the court, probably I ever learned of any other coach. In fact, in those days, you'd got the selection, maybe for the Victorian team or the strain team when you were younger. And they named the team and they'd say, Thanks for coming. See you later. You never got feedback that never ever, I think I had one coach at one time gave me a bit of feedback before one guy that will see it. So things changed a lot. But I learned I guess, coming through the ranks and the hard yards of understanding how coaching is around the game, I'm really not that much into the fringe bit and very happy to have everything for the players. But my concentration is always what I can do to beat the opposition broken down. Have that team ready with options to be able to walk by a long thought and know they can take on anything at any time. And so nothing would change for me. I don't think they're
Paul Barnett 32:31
normal. Perhaps just one last question. What's the legacy that you hope you've left as a coach,
Norma Plummer 32:36
as far as I think the legacy would be leaving, I would hope that, that I have taught a lot of players how to think a little bit differently. And certainly when I walked away, I handed over 12 World Championship players to Alexander and I felt I've just wanted to leave the sport in the best possible position I could. And I think at least that was something I achieved.[PB8]
Paul Barnett 33:06
Normally, it's been such a privilege to spend an hour with you today. Thank you so much for your time. I've loved hearing your stories. I think that there's a great place in the world for your philosophy about tough love. And I hope that more coaches hear this and embrace that philosophy as well. Thank you for your time today.
Norma Plummer 33:25
Thank you for Thank you