On Draft Day edit
Wed, Dec 13, 2023 5:22PM • 36:09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
draft, scouts, analytics, gm, book, nhl, owners, doug, team, year, player, pick, great, goaltender, people, work, scouting, selecting, moneyball, trade
SPEAKERS
Doug McLean, Paul Barnett
Paul Barnett 00:00
Doug McLain Hello, and welcome back to the gray Curtis podcast.
Doug McLean 00:05
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
Paul Barnett 00:08
We're happy to have you back because of course, you've just written the book, draft day how hockey teams pick winners or get left behind. It's an absolute cracker. It does. It's got its to do with hockey, but the lessons in the insights in there for all sports, I think, as we'll get into today, so congratulations, and I hear it's on the bestseller list, Doug. Yeah, I'm
Doug McLean 00:29
really pleased Simon and Schuster notified me there recently that while I followed it every week, they keep sending me notices that uh, you know, started week one on the best seller list and 10 consecutive weeks in Canada, on the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail Best Seller list. So it's really and indigo, which is a big book, company, book sales place in Canada, the biggest it's like a chapters type of thing. Barnes and Noble type thing. But it's been on their bestseller list, and also their Christmas wish list, which really gave it a good plug in for Black Friday. And, really, so I'm really pleased and Simon Schuster just found me their answer, they've done actually a second printing of the book. So that's it's really encouraging because it was a lot of nights when I was reading this. I thought, Who the hell is going to read this book? As I'd be going to sleep after after working on it. So it's been kind of fun, though. To see some success from it, you know,
Paul Barnett 01:32
well, how did they twist your arm into getting to write it because you tell a lot of stories that happen behind closed doors that people would not know about?
Doug McLean 01:41
Well, it's kind of funny. I had a group approached me about doing a life story book in my in my home province in Prince Edward Island. And they said, Well, I said, What's the deal? I said, Well, if you give us $60,000, we'll write a book about you. And then we'll split the profits. And I said, I don't think I'm gonna do that. So anyway, all of a sudden, when I finished it, Sportsnet, I got a call probably, you know, a week or so after from the publisher of Simon and Schuster, asking if I would consider writing a book. And I said, you know, Kevin, I really, I really have no interest in writing a book. And he's well, let me tell you about what we're thinking first, he said, you know, you're the Moneyball. Moneyball book came out about baseball a number of years ago, and it was a really successful book. And we'd like to do something similar to Moneyball, not quite as much of the analytic slant, but a book like that, both the draft and that, that kind of intrigued me, because it was my experiences in the draft, but it wasn't about me, per se. So I kind of I kind of liked that approach. And it, you know, so it was, it was a lot of work. It took us three years to do that, you know, no, it was it when I was in the COVID delayed it a little bit. But it was a lot of research and, and a lot of work. But Scott Morrison is a great writer, great friend. And we were a real team on this. And he was pretty funny. Let me just give you a quick story before he started. I do the first six chapters here in Florida. I outlined what I want the chapters to be the names of that. And then I started filming notes on each chapter, you know what I wanted to say? So I wrote the first six chapter on my iPad, and I sent it to Scott. And the next morning, he calls me and he said, don't you write in paragraphs when you write? And I said, What do you mean these? Well, it came as one straight line. 25,000 words one straight line. So as I go, my daughter is like, Seriously, what's going on my Fs he's a dad, you have to change the settings on your iPad that go periods and paragraphs and things. You got to do that in your notes section. So anyway, Scott didn't know what he was getting into. And then we once we got that straightened out, it was a little smoother, but it was it was pretty funny when I Oh, man. So it was fun. I
Paul Barnett 04:06
want to come back to this. Well, I want to come back to this Moneyball idea actually because it's the book is very different from Moneyball. I think because of the the age and the the experience of the people you're you're drafting but before we get there, let's Let's wind the clock and start. Start at the beginning. So Doug, where are you in the world and what have you been up to so far today?
Doug McLean 04:26
Well, I'm in Florida. We live in Florida, seven months of the year. The last interview we did I was at my summer place in Prince Edward Island, the east coast of Canada. So we're exactly 20 250 miles from my cottage in Florida and in Delray Beach, Florida, and it's it's home here we're here seven months, and we're up in Prince Edward Island four and a half months or so. So it's a it's a great combination to be quite honest. You get the best of P e i in the summer and You get the best of Florida here and the winter when it's beautiful. So great golf great beach, great. It's when you're retired. It's sort of a good place to be. I
Paul Barnett 05:12
don't mean to rub it in Duck, but it sounds like living in Sydney all year round to me. Exactly.
Doug McLean 05:17
That's what I'd say it's a little bit like Australia.
Paul Barnett 05:22
So dug in the book, very early on, you start off, I think it's actually on the first or second page, you start off by saying, quote, winning at the draft means having the right pieces in the front office. Now, what's interesting about your career is your coach, you coached all the way up to the Stanley Cup. And then you had this amazing career as a GM, which is a very different role from Pepsi, what a lot of people think about when they when they hear the word GM, particularly in this part of the world, but could you tell us just at the start by what are these most important pieces that you need to have in place? Well,
Doug McLean 05:55
you know, to make, there's a real myth out there that the general manager is the guy that makes the pics and if the truth is known, as a general manager in the NHL, you're so busy with managing the team, managing the group managing the coach, managing your scouting staff imagine and, you know, when I was president as well, president of Columbus as well as GM, and we were running a building where we'd have 1000 people working for us on game nights, you know, so, you know, we had multiple rinks in the city that we oversaw. So it was a big pitcher.
But the number one thing with drafting is, you've got to have a tremendous scouting staff and your director of amateur scouting. Don Boyd was my director of amateur scouting. And he and I, you know, select the staff, which is scouts that are all over the world, essentially, not in Australia yet, not in Australia yet. But I mean, we had scouts in Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Finland, Russia, Canada, the United States, you know, and it was about a $3 million a year budget to manage that group. And they would watch every Scout watches around 225 games a year, per se. So it's that staff that really like as a GM, I would quote, watch the top players with my chief scout. But I, you know, they make their list up. And you really 99% of the time you go by the list, sometimes you don't, and you can get in trouble. But you typically go by those scouts work, and they're dedicated quality quality people.[PB1]
Paul Barnett 07:41
You talk in the book actually about scouting, it's you say it's the lifeblood of a successful team. But you also, you talk about this growing tension between, dare I say it old school scouting, you know, feet on the street, and analytics, which is growing in all sports, but how do you define this, this tension? And what did the best scouts do? Well, well, um, that
Doug McLean 08:08
the analytics chapter was a really challenging chapter for me to write because analytics, I mean, we did all kinds of great stats when we were when I was in the ball. But Analytics has gone to a whole nother level since I left the business. And I've always been intrigued by it. So what happened and Moneyball in baseball, it was a real battle between the the old scouts and the new scouts and the analytics people in the scouts. So I started and I found I had to have phone 30 people, presidents of teams, jams of teams, coaches of teams, and the National Hockey League. And one guy would allow me to quote them, because it's a very, very intense issue within operations.
There's been a couple of GM fired because they didn't get along with the analytics department. That's how 1010 he was. It's been in some organizations. So I love one quote a guy gave he said dog, it's like going out to dinner. It's not octopus steak. It's not today. No, it's not the vegetables, not even the salad. Analytics is the salt and pepper you put on the meal. So it was being downplayed. [PB2]
But over the three years I wrote the book, I saw a dramatic change amongst the groups. And it was like, if the analytics guy has a great attitude, and the scouts like him, and he, they they started, I noticed as the book progressed, they started to work better together. And I think it all comes back to leadership in the organization, I really do. The leader, the president, General Manager, is the guy that dictates how analytics is going to be accepted in the organization. And I think over time, it really evolved. I had one analytics guy say to me, and I quote him in the book, I didn't quote his name, because he would have been fired. But he said, Hey, I'm telling you, Doug, if the scouts this ahead of analytic, if the scouts don't buy in to and lose, they're going to be washed out to see, well, that's not really the case. So it but I saw, it really evolved. And I saw it as the end of the book that they were starting to work together, it's going to be a part of the business. And the to me, there's good information there. It's not the end all and be all. But it's a tool. It's a tool. You'll never replace scouts in the field, you never will replace scouts in the field. But it's a great tool to add and help the scouts have another look and maybe go back and look at the player again. Because the numbers are saying this, the scouts not seeing that. That's what I like about it. But I'm telling you, I was trying to scout it this year is Travis and Doug, they're a pain in the ass. These guys. They're a pain in the ass. So it hasn't gone under percent. But it's certainly changing to the better.
Paul Barnett 11:52
Now I just listening to you. I'm reminded i Last Last summer, I read Theo Epstein's book about the Cubs. And he said he used to get his scouts together every year. And he'd say to them, what are the top five players? Who could thrive with a change of club? I mean, how do you how do you use analytics for something like that? Well,
Doug McLean 12:11
yeah, you know, it just I think you it's like the GM is all say, how do you use analytics? When you look at block shots? And you say, okay, he blocked a shot with his pad. What about the guy that slides down and blocks it with his face? Does that show an analytics? So I mean, there's all kinds of intangibles that are still part of the game. I love John Madden, quote, the famous major league baseball manager who's written a book, great book, by the way. And he said in it, when I talked to my analytics people, I want to know what time it is. I don't want to know how the watch was built. And I don't want them in my dressing room. And I don't want them in my in my room in my clubhouse, and I don't want them on my bench. But I liked the information. So and CD eyes have been even talked about that we're still a long way in the book. But we're still a long way from, you know, knowing what it's all about. So it's still it's still a work in progress. But I'll tell you, I learned talking to many analytics people and many hockey people in my research, that it is starting to be used more and more as a tool. And I think that's smart.
Paul Barnett 13:29
There's a great quote in the book, Doug, from Sam pollack. And he says to you, people build teams in certain ways. I've always traded for futures, not pasts. And you talk about this, this quote, staying with you through your career, but could you tell us how you've applied this thinking at the draft table? Well, I
Doug McLean 13:49
think you know, what Sam meant by that is he had a good hockey team and expansion came into the league when Sam when the league went from six to 12 teams, and then up to 18. And then do you know it's it was expanding during his career. So what he used it for was he would trade veteran players and trade them do expansion teams for draft choices. And when you look maybe the greatest GM in the history of hockey, Sam Pollack acquired game, a FLIR on a future by trading a veteran player for potential or for a future first round pick. He acquired Bob Gainey. He acquired Ken dried, he acquired Larry Robinson. He acquired carbonyl he acquired the greatest players have played in that era for the Montreal Canadiens by trading veteran players and acquiring draft picks to end that's what kept the Canadiens as the one of the greatest teams in the history. And, and Sam Pollack won nine Stanley Cups as a general manager Like, most GMs dream of winning one, he won nine. So, you know, and that's what it was he really interesting story and it's in the book. Ken Dryden, the greatest goaltender in the history of the Montreal Canadiens, in 1974, was drafted by the Boston Bruins. The next day Sam Pollack traded for him. Ken Dryden didn't find out for 10 years after that he had been originally drafted by the Boston Bruins greatest goaltender in the history of the Canadiens was drafted by the Boston Bruins and acquired the next day and didn't know it for 10 years, because in those days, it was a secret draft and nobody knew who drafted who till you got a call from the team the next day, or whenever saying, Hey, we drafted here. So Ken gets a call saying you remember the Montreal Canadiens he thought he was drafted by them. And he had been drafted by Boston, who, by the way, was Montreal, his biggest rival through politics time in Montreal. So pretty funny.
Paul Barnett 16:04
That there's a there's a lesson in there isn't there. And it doesn't necessarily just apply to sport, and it's around, assessing the right time to give up your futures for a missing piece you've got today.
Doug McLean 16:18
Yeah, that's really critical part of being a successful GM. Now, when I was a GM of an expansion team, you I would trade, I would trade a draft pick for a veteran guy, but I would trade later picks I never traded one first round pick in my career. Because I was always petrified to do that. I probably should have traded a couple of the bad picks I made, but I you know, I did. But you know, it was just I traded a second round pick months for a goaltender that we thought was going to be a franchise goaltender. But most of my trades were later picks. And you always try then to work back to get that pick back, back maybe for another year. So you know. But if you're a team, if you're a general manager of a contending team, and you go into the trade deadline in the NHL, they're throwing around first round picks for fun right now. They're throwing them around, they'll trade a first round pick to get a veteran guy and a lot of times it comes back to bite them. It really does. I said in the book and it's a really important it was a premise of the my premise of really the entire book.
Since 1990, every Stanley Cup winner, except this past year, had at least 10 of their own draft picks on their team. That right there tells you everything you need to know about the importance of the draft. St. Louis Blues won the cup a few years ago, first time in their franchise history. They had 10 of their own draft picks on the team. New Jersey always had 1012 13 draft picks and then in Detroit Redwings a great teams 810 12 draft picks on their team of their own pick la the same thing Chicago the same thing. Multiple friends Stanley Cup champions, always 10 plus of their own draft picks. I was blown away that people had never heard that before. Hockey people had never heard that before. [PB3]
And I got that from a great friend of mine who worked for me, Bob strim. Who, who who researched this and presented to me and I Oh, man, that is bizarre. But as a hockey guy. I didn't know that. And I'm thinking how that's so that was a lot of the premise of the book, how important it is to draft well, and keep your players your draft picks to building a winner.
Paul Barnett 18:43
Doc, there's a great passage in the book. Could I could I ask you to read it? Actually, before I ask the question.
Doug McLean 18:50
Let me just find it here on my phone. So here's, here's the comment. When you look back at the history of the draft, it is at best a crapshoot. But one thing is for certain mistakes made with the first picks, especially in the top five overall picks can be devastating to a franchise, it can set them back for years. Jams, careers and legacies are often determined by these selections. It must be remembered, of course at gyms are selecting players who are 18 years of age, and don't always develop as hope, or at the speed teams have predicted and May. That's the toughest part of scouting, right? They're 18 year old kids who aren't developed.
Paul Barnett 19:37
So how do you do it? Doug, what's the criteria that you could use to try and predict whether an 18 year old or 2324 is going to be one of those 10 that you mentioned?
Doug McLean 19:49
Well, first of all, and I mentioned this in the book, most teams say okay, we know from 18 on he's going to probably grow at least one more inch and gained 20 pounds. That's what that's what they sort of think is going to happen. Well, that's fine. But I'm telling you, you you just go off the basic principles, you go off skill. How is this skating? How's this puck skills? How is this shot, you look at all his skills, and that's all and then you really do a deep dive into his character. That's why the regional scouts are so important. The guys that are in the communities, you know, you have your, you have your chief, Ontario Scout, OHL scout on Tarasque. But then you have bird dogs in communities. And their job is to find out what his parents are like, what is what's he like, as a kid? What it was teacher said, find out as much as you can about the kid. He's six, one, his father is six, four, but as mothers five, three, how big is he gonna get? You know, so you, you do a lot, but you only all you can do is project and look at the talent of that and the character of that particular player, and hope that he's going to develop and you know what, I'm telling you this. If you're 15% successful in the draft, as a GM, you've had a hell of a career 15% That's, that's hard to believe. And that's why GMs are always hammering away. The NFL draft is 20 to 23 years of age. You know, why are we We're selecting 18 year olds because they're scared of labor laws. That's the that's the whole rationale. It's crazy. And you know, it costs a lot of gyms or jobs and a lot of coaches their jobs. I don't know what soccer is, or what you guys call what do you guys call soccer over
Paul Barnett 21:47
there. policy rules. Ozzy rolls. Yeah, yeah.
Doug McLean 21:50
So you know what it just you know, they're, they're selecting soccer players, but they've probably you know, I don't know how I don't know if it's any different. But it's tough. It really, really is tough. And that's why it's when you read through the book, you read about a lot of mistakes that are made a lot.
Paul Barnett 22:11
I didn't want to ask about the mistake, because it's in the book. I but I think people listening, Doug are gonna want to know, you talk about 15% success rate, but there is a decision in the book that you say cost you $30 million without any wounds, could I ask you to give us a quick sketch of it?
Doug McLean 22:33
Well, it's pretty funny I it was a it was sent Crosby draft and said Crosby was a was an unbelievable talent generational player. We had the sixth pick on that draft. And you know what? We ended up picking Joe bear brew lay in that draft and my my scouts, it was an unbelievable battle all year with my scouts. Brew lay was considered the SID Crosby of the west of Western Canada. Sid was the greatest player and he was in the eastern part of Canada. And it was a battle all year between my scouts. Crosby Abreu Lake Crosby, or blue lake. Those were the two names we talked about. Are those who was the better player. I Scout, you're telling me bro, I was gonna be the next divisor. People all around the world love roulette. And my scope Don Boyd love to kid in Slovenia by the name of onsale Copa Qatar, who I went and watched at the World Championships in Sweden, and met with him and his parents, and he was a terrific kid and a terrific player. And the prior year, I had had Nick Gerta, who was a Russian who I drafted maybe the most skilled player I've ever seen in my life. And he was a problem first he was in the Russian army, and there's a chapter in the book on him. But we go into the graph with cocoa butter, rated fifth and brew lay right at six. And I'm thinking okay, it's not gonna matter, because Montreal will probably take brew lay at five. And then we will take kokatat at six. Well, Montreal, take Pat Carey Price at five, who went on who was rated 22nd on our list, and all the other teams had him in the second round of the draft, and they step up and take this, this goaltender and at all no, here I go, I mean, I got now I gotta make the call between and I made the call to take Brulee over COVID time. I was nervous. And I said, How do I go with the Slovenian kid over a Canadian? How do I do that? I mean, this is so great. How do I and I and I took so Nick kypreos, who was my buddy that I worked on TV with in Canada asked immediately, a year ago, when I was writing the book, what I thought it cost me to draft carpenter Brulee I had a cold Bitter Brew a went six Copa China went to 11. So there's a lot of guys after me that made the mistake of gulp and tears. Well, he went 11th in the draft. And I said, Well, Nick, I think it probably personally cost me about 30 million bucks. Because if I would have taken COPPA tar, I'd probably still be a GM in the NHL. And I'd be making probably 5 million a year. And other and without that I'm writing a book and I might make 100 grand off this book. So
Paul Barnett 25:35
Doug, I'm sorry to have asked you that question. I could see your body language, telling me about it. But look, let's let's move on this in the book. What is absolutely fascinating is, when you talk about the people that sit around the draft tape, when you talk about all the different iterations of that, you talk about the discussions that goes on in the debate and the time pressure. It's, it's wonderful reading, but I wanted to ask you, you've sat around that table so many times. What prevents people from thinking clearly, when they're at that table? Well,
Doug McLean 26:09
you know, they, you get the the war rooms are different, because you're really, you know, you're, you're really discussing those. But when you get at the draft table, you typically just go off the list, the 100 man list you go in with that gets you through seven rounds. And it just you know, there's debate, not at the first, typically not the first pick, typically not your second pick. But every round, there's a debate as to because everybody, like, because what happens is you you start with your 100 Man list, and there's guides there that are still available that you never expected to be there. Because somebody in the first round, makes a big move and take somebody who may have late in the second round, and they pick them in the first round. So it opens up. So there's debates because your list dramatically can change by who the people ahead of you draft. And that's when the fight started the draft and the timeouts and the guys getting ticked off and mad at each other. It but I'll tell you what, it is the most exciting part of the job sitting there at the draft and making those critical decisions. And I'm telling you, every team leaves every draft, thrilled with who they selected and who they got. And then a couple years later, you're not as happy.
Paul Barnett 27:37
Typically, what happens with the owner? Are they in your ear as well.
Doug McLean 27:44
The owners typically aren't in your ear. I talked about one there were a buddy by Neil Smith, who was a longtime GM of the Rangers. And he was with the New York Islanders and I played Junior with Neil junior hockey with Neil and when they made their first selection, they selected TJ OC seven after I had picked six and took Broussard who became a real solid player in the NHL, but 1000 Plus team and he took TJ Oshie and the fans booed in Vancouver and his owner was ticked off at him so what it was a funny guys it was a different cat. So nail comes over to my table he said dog my owners driving me crazy. He's mad at me because he said is there any way you will pop by the table and just say what a great pic I made. So I did that as a favor, which I still liked his his pic by the way, I watched his pick from that draft 2006 draft playing last night on TV. So it ended up being a pretty good bet TJ or not, oh, shoot, but Okposo. So I want that I said Neil, that was a great kick. You made it seven really great pic. And the owner he the owner backed off. So you do that for your buddies. I mean, you're in the trenches battling one another for wins and lion losses. But you still have to, you know, you try to help the guy the odd time, you know, so the owners or the owners get in your ear after the fact when the guy doesn't turn out because the owners are unique. Their barbers tell them what's wrong with the team. Their accountants tell them what's wrong with the team, their wives, tell them what's wrong with the team. Sometimes their girlfriends tell them what's wrong with the team. The fans are in the owners here. So they become they become part of the fans. They really do the owners they they become hard on the head and I work for great owners, great owners. Hard to believe every owner I had in my career. When I wrote this book is not alive. They've passed and I feel a little bad about that because As you know, I gave few of them some shots in there. But anyway, you know what they're great people when they hire you. And I always say to my coaches don't get uptight because the owner eventually is going to hate you. He hates you just a little bit quicker than he hates me. So just get used to, you know, orders are tough, man, they're tough. So, now
Paul Barnett 30:22
in that period you've got before you make a decision, and I know, there used to be a time when you were all together in a convention center, and now it's mostly online. But in that when the clock's ticking, how do you keep everybody calm, and not at each other's throat, when it comes to trying to get their point across. But because really
Doug McLean 30:41
what you do is you're looking at the list. And it's really the it's really the director of amateur scouting, and his two key people, and you have 12 people at the table. But it's really a group of three, along with the GM that really are the ones that are having the major conversation, the lesser of guys, the younger scouts and newer scouts. The reason scouts don't pipe in, it's the it's the bot that the GM listening director of amateur doing the talking and the assistant director of amateur relaying. And they may ask a question to a guy from that region where the players from anything else you want to add, but it's really calm there. And then there's great excitement when you make the pic. And every draft I made. Had and right up until this past year there in 20,000 seat buildings. Now it's going to go to the NFL format of in, you know without the fans, but it is an unbelievable atmosphere because you've got 20,000 fans in a stadium intently and the 32 tables on the floor of the rink, you know, down on the rink, the rink floor, and you've got the tables there every team with their table of 12 people there. And it's it's really in the fans are engaged in the draft because we talked about it and being in Montreal and they had the first pick of the draft in Montreal, the crowd 20,000 people were going nuts when they're making their selection. So it's a pretty it's one of the Edit, what you do is you move into a city like on a Tuesday before the Saturday draft. And then excitement in that city is over the top especially, you know, in every city, it takes over the fan base. And it's really exciting time.
Paul Barnett 32:34
Doug, you finish the book with some great advice for younger players. You say, ultimately, it's about an individual chasing a dream with hard work and passion. And having a dream is not enough. So many talented people think they're outworking their competition. But that shouldn't be the focus. You have to embrace the journey. You have to want to push through that early morning workout when you don't feel like it or push through to stay late when everybody else has gone home. In many cases, it's about proving the naysayers wrong and grinding it out. True of life, I'd say Doug, not just ice hockey, but is there a player or a story that you can leave us with that illustrates somebody who did this.
Doug McLean 33:20
You know, I think about a couple of guys. And it was in the actual the SID Crosby draft and we drafted a kid by name Adam Quaid, a second round pick. And we drafted in a same grab that kid in the third round Adam, or I should say Chris Russell, and another kid in the seventh round Mark methodic. And they all became NHL errs, those lesser drafted Kitsap I had a couple of seventh round picks that that made it at a third round pick goaltender became a call a rookie of the year in the NHL, because of that, because of their character and how hard they work, and would do anything to make it. And I also said in the book, if you don't love the game, you have no chance to play in the NHL.
You've got to love the game because of the sacrifices you have to make. And, and not only that your parents are a key part of it. I say to my son who's an agent in Chicago, Clark, if you if you run into a you want a player and his parents are crazy run from because there's a good chance you're going to have major problems with that good. So you know, I tried to do a little advice chapter at the end. And I've had a couple of people actually send me notes and Doug, that chapter should be on every dressing room wall in Canada, talking about you know, the parents and advice to kids and coaches. I really enjoyed that chapter to be quite as it's not an advice. It's more I guess it is advice but just advice of my 24 years in the NHL as to what I saw, but I actually really liked writing that chapter.[PB4]
Paul Barnett 35:04
It's a great read. I will put the link in the show notes doesn't matter whether you're into hockey or not. For anybody that's interested in how the draft works or even the process of selecting people to join your team. It's a it's a great read and I wish you all the best chasing down that $100,000
Doug McLean 35:23
Yeah, okay, man. I appreciate the support and I I didn't envision selling a lot of books in Australia but now okay, I'm counting on you. getting that done for me over there. So give it a chance you can. Most people just in the US are buying it on Amazon. I don't know how you get it in Australia, but I'm sure you can get it off the link there shows where you can buy it. But you know, I if you take melatonin to sleep at night, put the melatonin away and read the book and you'll have a beautiful night's sleep as you pass out.
Paul Barnett 35:59
I don't think that's true, Doug, but I will leave it on that point. Great. Thanks so much. Appreciate
Doug McLean 36:06
it, man. Take care.