Pokey Chatman Edit

Fri, 8/27 6:48AM • 29:59

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, coach, player, russia, chicago, game, pokey, team, organization, question, lead, life, fired, amazing, resonates, sport, wanted, world, part, move

SPEAKERS

Paul Barnett, Pokey Chatman

Paul Barnett 00:00

pokey Chatman. Good afternoon or rather, I guess it's good morning for you and welcome to the Great coach's podcast.

Pokey Chatman 00:07

Good afternoon to you as well. And truly my pleasure to be here, I'm looking forward to this.

Paul Barnett 00:11

We looking forward, I've got to admit, I'm looking forward to listening to your fantastic accent. Could Could you tell us where you are in the world? Maybe also, where you come from and what you've been up to today?

Pokey Chatman 00:25

Well, currently, I'm sitting in New Orleans, Louisiana. I'm literally two blocks from the French border. And you mentioned accent. And I don't necessarily think of myself as having an accent because I'm listening to your beautiful accent. But yes, I guess I have a little bit of Cajun Creole, African American, a little bit of everything thrown in there. But yes, I'm currently here. And I'm from a little town of less than 3000 people. That's right on the banks of the Mississippi River. So small town girl living in the city, and thankfully, because of basketball, got to travel the world, which was unimaginable when I was a kid. And here we are today.

Paul Barnett 01:05

Well, we're gonna get into that journey you've had all over the world because I'm, I'm very excited to talk to you about it. Of course, we're gonna get to Russia. We might talk a little bit about Australia as well on the journey to so pokey maybe I'll just start with a question about the great coaches you've had exposure to because in preparing for today, there's two names that jumped out one is sukan, Quinta, and of course, Natalie high cover who we've also had on the podcast and amazing, amazing coach, you've also had exposure to some people that are on their way to becoming great coaches. There's Becky Hammon in there as well. So just an easy question to get going from this perspective. What is it you think that the great coaches do differently?

Pokey Chatman 01:45

No, the easy and obvious staple of those people had been their ability to create, cultivate, maintain, and manage relationships. And it's organic. It's not from a textbook, they could write the textbook. And I think it's one of those things that resonates because it's real, and people feel that[PB1] . And let me preface that by saying yes, their expertise and their craft, gets them to the level of that. But for me, it was being able to be coached by Sue Gunter, who was an Olympic coach and at the year we boycotted. You know, Nata is considered the Pat Summitt of Europe. And I always tell people she posts a pros I get you're making the correlation woman and domination. But this is the pros in the world. Not College in one country. And just want to give her her props and, and Becky is amazing, a watch Becky's career, but Russia 1000s of miles away, brought us together and then watching her evolution in the sport, I promise you I'm not that much older than her. But I feel like a proud mother. So I think is their ability to manage relationships, but they also know how to read the room. And you know, today, we always talked about emotional intelligence. I was immersed with that with people. So I had a head start in managing and leading because of those great people.[PB2]

Paul Barnett 03:03

poki, you've spoken a lot about the fact that when your parents divorced, a village stepped in to help raise you out. And I wondered, just, if you could talk a little bit about how that early experience of those people coming together to support you, has influenced you and shaped you as a leader?

Pokey Chatman 03:21

Well, I think it highlights the fact that it's a team effort. It highlights the fact that despite the hierarchy of things, that certain people are stars in their role, my sister's role changed from being big sister to almost second mother, because my mom worked three jobs are the cousin that was the basketball star at the time, he became my coach in waiting. So I think that was the biggest thing. But also, I think the part of that was watching my mom delegate really important tasks to other people. So then it was that peace of mind, I really think about not, and I speak to people like me, and you have this team concept at home. There's a head coach, there's associate coach, there's assistant, and it's everyone. And I didn't really figure that out until several years ago when you take a step back and think about it. But I think that was true to my early development,[PB3]

Paul Barnett 04:12

or your early development was also under suku into 14 years as an assistant before you took over from her when she was unfortunately getting becoming new. But when you took over the tango and this amazing run three consecutive Final Fours in the NCAA. And I wanted to ask you, because you took over from a legend and so I wanted to ask you, what was it like taking over from someone who had such a big impact on that teams? How did you respect to the past, but also orientate the team and move them forward?

Pokey Chatman 04:45

I think the awful manner in which I had to step in was her illness. That's not the norm. And sometimes if you step in for someone, they're coming back and obviously she didn't but I think that tragic situation in The middle of a season instantaneously brings people together. And so you have that momentum. But I think the bigger picture is, when you work for soup gunner, you're so involved with every aspect of the existence of the program. Players watch that. They see that that was her leadership style. And so it wasn't this huge shift. And I think what people forget is that, yes, she was my coach. Yes, she was my mentor. But she became a really good friend, it was the trifecta of everything. And so it was so easy to do that. And I think in terms of putting my stamp on, it was when the game evolved, that became my stamp in different areas, like literally trend in the game. But the part about honoring the past, which is easy, because I am Sue, some people who watch me play, they call me little Sue, you say you squat like her, you make you have these mannerisms like her. So I guess a little bit of her, he still lives on in me,

Paul Barnett 05:52

you had some issues happened, he decided to move on, I don't want to go through that. Because your story is much more interesting. From 2007 onwards, you hit up to Russia, you learn the language. And I've been to Russia, and how difficult that is. And you did that. So you could not only communicate with the team, but immerse yourself in the local culture. And when you talk about it, you describe it as it was a joy, it was a complete joy, especially after all the issues that had preceded it. But it's so interesting that this was a second chance for you from a career perspective, and it took you off in this amazing direction. So how has that shaped your perception or your reality and dealing with second chances when it comes to athletes? And I guess

Pokey Chatman 06:34

people in general, when you think about second chances, it really becomes an endorsement. Right? And I think specifically as it related to Russia, here I am thinking my life is over from a nanosecond, and then reality sets in the world is bigger. And this was so unexpected. But it was also so closely tied to my expertise. And don't misunderstand that, of course, there's going to be questions asked, but at the end of the day, it was about expertise in a craft. And it was a trigger for me in terms of value and appreciation of everything. And I just never imagined Russia. And here's a part that doesn't get talked about enough. So I go to Russia. And the first question I'm asked is, do you mind coming over early two weeks to personally train Lauren Jackson, I said, what I'm being punked. Right now, where's the camera, this is not real life. And that was one of the most devastating professional things became amazing. And you mentioned that the language and that's just part of exploring and want to learn and probably learning that language, and then not learning it, being able to speak it communicate. And I didn't know it was assigned to them how much I wanted to be there, and it served me so well over the six years, they're

Paul Barnett 07:52

so perky. You've touched all over the world, Slovakia, Russia, America. And there's numerous times in researching you or I see your game style referred to as pace with poise there also efficiency, which is a neat way of describing a game style. But there was nothing really that I could find about your values as a coach. And so I wanted to ask you, are there some immovable values that have traveled with you, as you've coached in all these different locations? And if so, could you share them with us?

Pokey Chatman 08:18

Yes, I can. And I will say this as you move up the ladder, when you're coaching 10 year olds, you're talking about commitment and passion and discipline and all those things, and you're teaching them but as you move up the ladder, from college to pros, it gets a little bit more refined. And I think in terms of and this is what people always laugh at. I said it really is about the people. It really is about a growth mindset. It really is about trusting the process. And I was fortunate enough that Nick Saban was at LSU when I was there, and he's a trust a process guy. And it's about course we want to win championships. But it was more about the next play the next moment and always about those people that this focused, excellent. And I think when we would narrow and shrink the think it really resonated with organization players to where we were able to accomplish great things.[PB4]

Paul Barnett 09:12

So I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily pokey. And if I was to ask you what those values are, would you be able to sort of articulate them? Many people talk about joy, or they talk about hardware? If

Pokey Chatman 09:22

I can't, yeah, I will tell you this, have fun. We know the ones that are gonna make us uncomfortable, right? The time the commitment, the best way to improve the individuals improve the team. We know all those things. But it's the joy that comes with it. It's that focus excellence on it because it doesn't always have to take 18 hours every day. It can literally take 10 and that comes with that single minded approach to things that focus excellent that trusting the process of things and I think the growth mindset to me it's really about the inner scoreboard. What did you do to win today? Not the scoreboard that we're going to be judged by And I understand that part of it. But as I've been involved with teams, I also understand what makes that entire unit clicks[PB5] . So there's some of the things that I've taken with me everywhere.

Paul Barnett 10:09

Well, you had this great run in Russia, talking about teams having great success, and you win the Europa League Championship in 2010, was the head coach by this point, this leads you to return to the USA where you're coaching Chicago sky, and straightaway, you lead them to the playoffs for the first time in the club's history. And they stay there for four years straight. So this is now lightning striking twice in your career. So if you go back to that Chicago guy, period in 2010, I want to go ask, was there anything in particular or different that you did, when you started with that team that led to that result?

Pokey Chatman 10:46

I think a management leadership standpoint, you have to understand this is my first time being a general manager of a professional team. And I think what aided me initially was I engaged entire organization, top to bottom, to find out from those people who were experts in their craft and their roles. And it was more about me learning their area in them[PB6] . And I thought that was normal, right? So we're supposed to do Hell, I don't know about marketing in Chicago, when there's 10, other professional teams, I don't know about all these things. And that proved to be so huge, because it never been done before. And it was all these different factions. And I just believe in in total team concept of everything, from sports, to family to life, in business. And I think that initial thing, because then people wanted to help more, they felt a part of it. And obviously, I have to evaluate the team. But those individual players the same way. Because what's really hard when you're stepping in is you don't want noise from a media clip or an article to define these players that you're coming into this organization with. I wanted them to have a clean slate that just wasn't stats, because there's always something behind that. [PB7] And I think that was just my approach with everything. And look, I didn't get it. All right, I just wanted to give myself the best opportunity to make the best decision, I think it helped pick, it

Paul Barnett 12:11

worked out pretty well, too. You talk a lot about being a good listener, to create a space for people to be whoever they are, and whoever they want to be around you. And you also talk about being a consistent presence in people's lives. These are themes that come through time and time again, when I see interviews with you, but if there was one behavior you wish you were better at as a leader, what would it be? Oh, how much time do you have? As much as you want perky?

Pokey Chatman 12:36

It's kind of hard to really just save one, I think the one that I would always keep at the top because I think it's the one that needs to consistently grow and tweak and get better, is always work at being the most efficient and effective communicator with all aspects of your existence. That's from the sports performance staff, to the people who are leading the fan, is that tool of communicating with them more in every sense of the word. Yes, you have to talk. Yes, you listen. But it's your body language is the number of times and I mean, it's the constant evolution of that, that I want to stay on top of because it's always changing, you got a process that works everywhere. And I really want to stay on top of that, because that in and of itself will be a conduit to me having meaningful, impactful relationships in every everything that we do[PB8] . And I think that's the one that I want to get an A plus in. And I'm not saying that I'm bad. But I think if my mindset is I can always get better with that, then I will.

Paul Barnett 13:40

So in 2016 you move on in your appointed head coach to the Indiana fever. And when Kelly cross off appoints you, she says, and this is a quote, the things that I've noticed about her teams and her players are, they always get better, pretty astute observation, I would say. But it's the team's element of this statement that caught my eye and not necessarily the result. So I wanted to ask you what would be the top one or two things you would recommend to anyone out there who wants to try and improve their team's performance starting tomorrow?

Pokey Chatman 14:13

Listen, it's not rocket science. There's one there's a commitment to that individual development of every person slash player slash staff in your organization. And what happens we have these pockets of commitment to player development. We have these pockets of commitment to sending a staff off to a seminar to get better, that needs to be second nature and in your DNA. That needs to be a formula for getting better because we abandon them then we come back to them when we need them. And I think specifically about a basketball team is so simple. We committed just 20 minutes every day to the individual, slowly individual development of each player. And what that means is some player might need video. Some players might need commerce. Some players might need reps. And I think if you take the time and energy to figure out exactly what those people need, and then extend that to everyone in the organization, you can't help but improve, or you give yourself the best chance. So I think it's that commitment to that development of not just the people on the court, but the people around them, I think is just a recipe for something really, really good.[PB9]

Paul Barnett 15:22

pokey, that sounds exhausting. How do you maintain your energy, with that kind of intimacy and that kind of connection between you and the whole organization?

Pokey Chatman 15:32

Think about the time energy and effort you put into your kids, right. And it doesn't have to be sport, it used to be about their sense of understanding or learning something in school. And that feeling that you get when they get it. Oh, my daughter, Mia. It's amazing. Like, if I could bottle it up and sell it, I'm retired. Right? And it is the truth. And coaches may not ever admit that because they want to be tough and all and we all do. But it feels so good. Because that is everlasting, that's going to get you through the tough, it doesn't feel exhausting, because it's this unspoken moment where when that player gets it in the game, and they glance over at you on a bench, and then you know, that's going to catapult you to something different. So it doesn't exhaust me, it's exuberant to me. So I don't know, I just I just love that piece of it

Paul Barnett 16:19

sounds like you found a nice balance between high care and high challenge. And that's something that is very difficult for all of us to find. Somebody asked you pokey, what's the advice? How do you do it? How do you balance challenge and care? What would you say to them?

Pokey Chatman 16:34

Wow, how do you balance that? I think I'm fortunate enough to have three decades in this to either go through ways that were average ways that weren't good. I think I have a, you know, some experience to figure it out. And what I figured out is that you can't treat every situation the same. I think sometimes I go from college, to Europe, to the pros. And when I tell you, the sport is the only thing that's the same. And to be open to that, and don't look at it as Don't let your ego get in the way of morphing to what the moment needs. Like, sometimes our ego will get in the way, I don't have this problem I maybe I did at an earlier age. But I try to meet people at their point of need, which is also helping me just having the strength and courage to do that, I think says a lot about what's going to take place next.[PB10]

Paul Barnett 17:27

I think the idea of meeting people at the need or where they are is tremendously powerful. And it's something that many, not many Actually, that's not true. But some of the other coaches we've had on the show have talked about interestingly, they've all been women. I was listening to talk recently about race issues. And you were saying that you were challenged by a friend with the idea that, quote, We don't need white friends, we need some white allies. But you responded by saying that while that's true, we also need all people to keep their eyes and ears open. So I wanted to expand this a little to the topic of bias. And I wanted to ask if you could share an example of how you've dealt with bias within a team?

Pokey Chatman 18:07

Yeah, this is a tough one, because it still goes on today. I won't use names. But if anyone listens to this, they'll understand. Yeah, a prominent player in an organization, seven years all star Olympics, black player. And yes, she was appreciated, I think then comes along a white player that hadn't played a game. And this just lifted up to billboards, all the wonderful things. And let me say this, I don't think that was a problem, I don't think is a negative thing on either player. I don't think those things permeate so much in the locker room. Because unfortunately, we see fuel in here, a lot of that just in terms of how certain people are described, you know, black player is athletic. This one has a high white player has a high IQ, whatever, we can have a damn seminar semester on that. Right? And I honestly don't think it's intentional. But that's not the point. Right? Sometimes it's unintentional microaggressions. In that sense, however, so much of it when we become this social place, when it gets down to other people seeing and feeling how there's a different value system. When it gets down to people earning money, and endorsements. It's a little bit more prevalent, and it's hard to deal with[PB11] . And I you know, I've been involved in a situation where that's been a part of certain players not wanting to beat an organization. And I'll say this, and this is not to knock an organization, sometimes you're doing what you deem necessary to cater to a subset of people. But that's a microcosm of the world that we're living in. Right. And I won't say this, the one thing I would say about sports is that we never felt that at a young age, and we weren't thinking about black and white, right? We would go to someone's house. We're 10 years old. So we were insulated from it for so long, that when we first feel it, you're like, holy crap, what is this? And so we're going through that process because we like we got the sacred spot. We don't care. You know, I'm in Russia, I have Serbia and Montenegro and Russian gration doesn't matter, we bombed Serbia, but I'm the coach, right? So those things don't get into our circle. And I think now with the internet and TV and exposure, so many of those things are rearing its ugly head. And I'm glad for it, because it needs to be addressed.

Paul Barnett 20:20

So your approach is to bring it out and talk about it openly? Or do you wait for it to show its head?

Pokey Chatman 20:26

I think, honestly, some of it showed his head on my clock, it was new, I couldn't predict the TV networks covering more women's games, and would that would bring the certain sponsors and who they would want, but I was privy to it, because I was a GM. And so you're sitting in those circles, and so it's difficult to confront it before it even happens. I'll be honest with you, I'm not even thinking along those lines initially, but I will tell you this, once it happens, I don't duck, we're not gonna duck we're going to deal. And dealing is if it makes you feel some type of way, say it. But there's a respectful way to say it, because what I always hate, you know, Paul is sometimes the anger goes to the wrong people. And I'm going to say this, I'll be very specific, Sabrina ionescu. Amazing player. And I think sometimes because I think the media and people do her a disservice, because they can't really appreciate the really good qualities that she brings to the game, because they want to elevate a show fast. And when she does really well, it's been always pinpointed as being negative, and all the kid wants to do is play ball. Right? So I think she's caught up in that being the face of things from ESPN putting her on TV, there's an issue with the WNBA, lifting her up early on, and not other players, even within her team. But the good part for me was a that's the conversation that he had, but don't target the kid, she's just playing ball, she didn't ask for it. She's trying to be the best that she can be. And that's when it kind of, you know, makes me go, okay, people, let's direct this where it needs to be, let's have an intelligent conversation. Let's move the needle forward. Okay, you've been

Paul Barnett 21:57

fired on multiple occasions in your career. And I know this is part of being in professional sport. But when it happens, it must impact your confidence. So based on your experience, what advice do you have for other leaders who may be dealing with some kind of self doubt?

Pokey Chatman 22:13

in specific to that? I think the one that the time that made me go Wait a minute, let me reevaluate was, honestly, Chicago, it was one of those things where, okay, I've been here six years, but we didn't want a championship. What can I do? So you ask those questions in that moment, and I'm okay with that. So I tell people, you want your players to get better. You want them to ask questions, you want your kids to get better. So you ask questions, what can I do better, and you have to meet it. Right to to take away from that. And so you take that away from him. But also it gets back to you have to do a self scout on yourself in terms of your expertise in the game? Where can I mean an authentic real true deep dive into that. And then once you do that, and you measure it against what feedback you got, I think that makes you it makes it easier to deal with whether it's beneficial or not just the exercise of that is going to make you feel like okay, this is what I can do. And you're always going to find something right that you can do better. I mean, hell, sometimes you might make it up just so you know, you're working on it. But then there's some times where you're going to be I can't put my head on my pillow at night, I did what you asked me to do, to the best of my ability involve everyone. And it's not about being callous or pushing aside. It's about being at peace, but still finding a man in a group[PB12] . And I'll be specific when I was let go and fire. I like saying so keep saying fire people. So when you laugh, it's like nobody was fired. Okay, two things in both places happened when I was let go fired in Chicago. I remember. I knew about it. And two weeks later, I was going to speak at a clinic at dawn Staley in South Carolina. And my sister said, you know, they just posted that you were let go in Chicago, and you're out there like you're okay. And I said, Excuse me, and I said, but I am. I am okay. I say it's amazing in the men's game, in the pros, when someone gets fired as a feather in their cap. Now, I'm not saying all that. But my point is as perspective that you move on, you take what you can from it, and you continue to grow. I went to that clinic to go speak with schoharie, one of the best in the game, Genie busick, who's in Dallas, and almost daily. I'm like, come on, I'm good. That same thing in Indiana. I asked the question, and I couldn't get anything back. And I said what can I do better? I want to get better. And that was nothing. Not one single thing. Now whether they were uncomfortable saying it or didn't have anything and really want to just move in a different direction. I was okay with that too. So ask the question, let it hit, let it resonate, heal and continue to grow.

Paul Barnett 24:49

Okay, if I could take you back all the way to that six year old who was doing a jobs to help the family after her parents divorced if I could take you back. And he said to her, what would you say? Do our

Pokey Chatman 25:02

maps really are amazing? Take more naps. Listen, I'm being real, right Europe taught me how to make relax. a nap is sacred as a kid, I never wanted to do that. I also want to talk a little bit tell her that your faith is going to be the foundation that's going to lead you to a prosperous future. And don't misunderstand me I was raised Catholic, I went to catechism religion, you know, was confirmed, but I was going through the motions, right, which stalled my growth in my faith. But baby, let me tell you, I'm good with it now. So I would tell myself, pay closer attention, keep asking those questions. And really a family dynamic truly is everything and our families, not just blood, you can make a family and every pocket of the world. If you have those values that your mother and father and family taught you at home that you kind of rebuked back then. And the last thing is, is about being outdoors. Nature, truly is nurturing. And I used to love to be outside from an early age, and I just love the sun on my face. And now I understand How refreshing that is to me, and to be part of my life. [PB13] Those are a few other things. But yeah, take those naps. Those are amazing.

Paul Barnett 26:17

Thank you. So this wonderful social media posting you recently where you said, We don't tear down other black ladies, we have felt the pain of being torn down. We are deliberate about building others. So I wanted to finish by asking what is the legacy that you hope you're going to leave as a coach

Pokey Chatman 26:36

might not be anything good for a book or title or I think I hope my legacy is wrapped up in the people that I was able to come in contact with and coach work with. And lead[PB14] . I think basketball was just to kind of do it to something bigger and impactful. And thankfully, I've had success along the way that gave me opportunities to be what USA Basketball Russia, Slovakia, Indiana, Chicago, but I cannot tell you, I don't remember the score of the championship game and Russia. I don't remember the score of going to the finals in the NBA. But I remember when Tamar young called me to tell me she was buying a house. Because this is the players who would buy these shoes all the time. And I would always tell them, Look, you guys need to buy. They're buying shoes and Louie Vuitton bags. And it's that part or when a player that you coach has a destination wedding. And they're only inviting 30 people and you're on the list, right? Are when they ask you to be the godmother, their kid, that's the legacy I want to leave. And that seems so small. But those people are going to impact other people. And that's I want people to say she was fair, you know, yeah, she got on my ass. But that's because she cared. And I'm better for it. And that's enough for me.[PB15]

Paul Barnett 27:53

Thank you. We've only met today. But I feel like I'd like to challenge you on that answer if I could. Okay, I think the reason you get invited to weddings and the reason people keep you in their life is because you are a wonderful example of resilience, and pushing on and making the most of other opportunities that come along. Whether it's your childhood, which I know wasn't easy, whether it's the whole issue that followed you, when you when you left LSU your career and your life has been about perseverance and carrying on. And if people could see you now you're doing it with a smile on your face. So I think there is something in there about resilience. And you being a wonderful example of that. And I think it's a trait we all trying to develop, we all want to be better of it. If you ask me the one thing I want my daughters to develop, I would literally say resilience, because if you can keep going, that's more than half of it. I think you've got resilience. And I think that's what people saying,

Pokey Chatman 28:51

I really, really appreciate that. And it means a lot. And also, I also know there were some people that were responsible for taking a deep dive into me at every juncture, The Good, the Bad. When I say how difficult it was to get fired from Chicago. It was for a moment, but he was the gentlemen, Harvard Graduate lawyer real estate person that said, I'm going to look into your files at LSU. And that ESPN articles and hired me, I got over being fired a little quicker. But that resonates with me to this day. So Russia was the my experience. And then Chicago was him taking a deep dive and examining things and I don't forget that and I remembered as I move on, so I appreciate it and you know the resilience part. I'll try to keep it going but doesn't feel hard at all.

Paul Barnett 29:44

Okay, it's been wonderful to spend an hour or so with you today. Thank you so much for your time and I look forward to having a glass of red wine with you straight after the show.

Pokey Chatman 29:53

Please, let's do that and I'm looking forward to how those remaining wines are gonna taste.