Roy Masters edit without crackle.MP3
Sun, Oct 27, 2024 1:39PM • 56:21
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Roy Masters, Melbourne Storm, Rugby League, Great Coaches, Jack Gibson, Craig Bellamy, Tim Sheens, School Teacher, Journalist, Psychological Advantage, Underdog Narrative, Positive Motivation, Technical Skills, Team Ethos, Personal Accountability
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Hugh McCutcheon, Roy Masters
Paul Barnett 00:00
Well, it's my pleasure to welcome to the show today. Roy masters, Roy, Hello and welcome.
Roy Masters 00:08
Hello. How are you? Paul, good.
Hugh McCutcheon 00:09
Oh, great to see you. And
Paul Barnett 00:11
lovely backdrop you've got there, I can see you've got quite a collection of books, I'm sure, between you and your wife, you've written most of them.
Roy Masters 00:19
Well, now I've written four, she hasn't written any, but she's a great reader member of a book group for something like 40 years and still going very strong within her fiction book group. But I'm more into fact and more into non fiction.
Paul Barnett 00:33
We're going to get into those facts of non fiction today, but I should introduce my co host today, dialing in from America New Zealand. Friend. Mr. Hugh McCutcheon,
Hugh McCutcheon 00:44
hello, Paul. Hello Roy. Pleasure to be here as always. Thanks for having me. Hello, you,
Paul Barnett 00:48
Roy. I want to start with something really simple before we get going. Can you just tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Roy Masters 00:58
Well, I live in eastern Melbourne, which is on the edge of the metropolis, the CBD. It is only a short distance, about a 20 minute walk down to Amy Stadium, where the storm their home ground, and it's about two minute walk to the Citadel of sport in Australia, the MCG I across the road for us is a big park where I try and get 10,000 steps done a day. And not too far from there is a pub where I might have a couple of beers a day. So other than the fact that we've got 10 grandchildren and that I go and see a couple of them two or three times a week and make write a rare column for The Sydney Morning Herald, make an infrequent appearance on the ABC program offsiders. That is about my week. Well,
Paul Barnett 01:51
we're going to get into your week. I want to talk to you about the Melbourne Storm too. They're the Rugby League franchise down there in Melbourne been extremely successful getting to their DNA and what makes them so successful. But I would just like to start by talking about great coaches. I mean, you've, you've had three careers, which we're going to talk about, school teacher, journalist and great coach yourself, but you've seen some of the greats of rugby league up close. Jack Gibson, you're a mentor to Craig Bellamy and, you know, Tim sheens, and I'm sure there's, there's tons of others in there, but tell me, what is it you think the Great Ones do differently that sets them apart?
Roy Masters 02:34
Hard work, essentially, I mean, Jack Gibson was the coach of the 20th century. He was the first to revolutionize the role in rugby league in so far as previous to him, all coaches were ex players. They basically training session began with a few laps of the oval game at Dutch football and up to the pub. But Jack approached it in a very scientific way. The first thing he did was demonstrate that attackers that defense is at half the game, and so we had players rolling him, tackling rubber tyres and things of that nature, trying to create good defensive lines, like other great coaches, Craig Bellamy and Tim machines, Jack went to the United States on number of occasions, And he was independently wealthy, and he stayed with, hooked up with NFL coaches, particularly the San Francisco ones. And so he brought back, as did shit to machines and Craig Bellamy, to this day, still as a part of his contract that he must go and visit an overseas sporting franchise to be at a English soccer club, being a college football team in the United States, or even in some of the European soccer football franchises.
Paul Barnett 03:50
So they have this strength or this urge, this curiosity that drives them. But you know what's interesting? I've met Tim, I've heard Craig speak, and I've read about Jack, but all of them had very different communication styles. Oh,
Roy Masters 04:05
definitely, and without any doubt, Jack Gibson was enigmatic in his speech. He would he spoke in riddles. He would leave the player pondering. The player would be thinking to himself, what did he really mean by that? He would force a degree of introspection into the player, so that while he wasn't imparting any knowledge, he was making the player think about something he might he walked up once to the great front row forward, Steve blocker, roach, and he said, Never be frightened of fear, which, of course, sent said big blocker, often hours and hours of thought trying to work out what Jack meant. In other words, Jack was basically saying, You can admit that you are frightened, and it doesn't really matter, as long as you admit it. Then, of course, Tim sheens, he was voluminous in his, in his the words that he used talked to Tim sheens and that. Or three hours later, he walk away battered, but he was a he he spoke vast volumes of words, and based on the theory that somewhere along it all, the player would get some information out of it. Craig, however, is very short, succinct in what he says, nice, nonetheless, with large numbers of expletives.
Paul Barnett 05:21
But Roy, we're here to talk talk about you and not not the great coaches you've met along the way, although I'm very happy to hear more about them, but I want to talk a little bit about your background. You started your working life as a school teacher. From there, you end up coaching youth teams. It was, it's and then you're a professional rugby league coach. What do you remember about those early days?
Roy Masters 05:44
Well, essentially, when you are a school teacher, and if you are young, it's basically your duty. Certainly was in country, New South Wales, that's his coach a rugby league team. And I quickly worked out at a very early age, even though I'd played League and certainly rugby union at university, I worked out that I was a parent coach than I was a player. And so the teams that I engaged at country high schools in New South Wales went on and won state titles, and from there, I was appointed coach of a team to go to New Guinea where we were undefeated, and then from that, promoted to a coach of an Australian school boys team to go to the UK, where we're also undefeated. And so based on that, you can see that there's a sort of a progression there, and that I was then appointed, asked to join a coaching panel at Penrith. And from then, I moved to western suburbs and finally, St George. So it was a progression by beginning, of course, with the fact that I basically realized that I had more skills as a imparter of rugby league knowledge than a practitioner of
Paul Barnett 07:02
it. I have to ask this, this question, this follow up, Roy, hand over to Hugh, but you come from a family that's noted for its, we're gonna say academic achievements, but definitely for its the the emphasis it placed on thought, thinking debate. How did they react to this changing career trajectory for you?
Roy Masters 07:24
Well, I was the eldest of seven, and so consequently I was pretty much a leader in that, in the in the family. In that way, my parents insisted I go to university and get a university degree, because they sort of children of the depression where the view basically was you got to get a safe government job if you possibly can, and that'll secure you for life. So I went off to university and became a school teacher, whereas the others that followed after me were allowed lot more liberty, and so they all embarked in different fields where they have reached some very preeminent positions in Australian society and in fact, in overseas. My brother Ian has a radio program in Los Angeles. My brother quetton was a very famous British film producer and director. My brother Chris is the is a four corners reporter that has done massive stories of great revelations in the in politics and in the Australian society. The some of the seminal four corners programs, 60 minutes programs of all time have been done by him. Sister Sue was head of drama The ABC sister Deb, was a executive producer of one of Australia's leading programs in the Australian story, and also worked in four corners, so they were didn't necessarily have to follow that pedestrian, safe path that I did.
Hugh McCutcheon 09:01
None of it sounds pedestrian. I'll
Roy Masters 09:03
tell you that mate, my part might have been a bit more,
Hugh McCutcheon 09:09
but listen, you learning a little bit more. Obviously, as a teacher, you have a really good basis in the laws of learning and how that that goes so skill acquisition, but then obviously you've got to compete and skill applications a whole different thing. And part of that is this whole idea of the psychological aspect of it, the mind body connection. And, you know, I think the thing that stood out I watched the 60 minutes stamp shot as well from 79 and and a few other a few other things. I tried to do some research coming in today, because it's such a privilege to talk to you. But where did you start leaning into that whole psychology piece and really seeing that as a competitive advantage for your teams and maybe for your coaching? Well,
Roy Masters 09:58
there. The the psychological advantage came in as a result of the fact that none of my competitors in the Sydney rugby league competition at the time had any background in psychology, which I had studied at university, although it wasn't my dominant subject, but and I can see that I can maintain an advantage there, together with the fact that the team that I coached at Western suburbs, where I was first great coach, they did consider themselves to be underdogs, and that, Further to that, that there was a lot of evidence that justified them being considered to be underdogs because The rugby league at the time consisted of the haves and the have nots. There were certainly privileged advantage clubs and clubs that weren't. So I tapped into that psychology of the underdog.
But I've got to quickly say, and fast forward to say Craig Bellamy's era here in Melbourne, when they were busted on the salary cap and they he initially considered using negative, negative motivation. That is to say, let's prove the bastards wrong. You know, they're trying to put us down. They're trying to kill the club. You know, we'll go out there and we'll prove them wrong. Well, that was a lot of my motivation at Western suburbs, but when we got to some of the big games at the end of the season, that failed us because that insularity we built suddenly were there in front of an arena of 50, 60,000 people. So I learned that negative motivation is not a long term success. And I said to Craig, whatever you do, don't use negative motivation. Celebrate your skills, the beauty of your athletic prowess. And so I learned along the way that psychology, I moved from one, one area of negativism to now I embrace positivism.[PB1]
Hugh McCutcheon 12:06
It's such a profound insight, and I thank you for sharing that, because I think people would probably want to sum up your contribution in some way to that, that idea of the underdog and playing to their narrative. But you're right. There's, there's a shelf life for that. There's only so much you can get out of that. At some point they've got to believe in who they can become, not not what they are or what they are, you know what I mean. So, yeah. So thank you, yeah. I mean, that's such a beautiful statement, right there. I'm blown away. But anyway, one of the other things that I thought was really interesting about your career was you coached, you know, initially, into these school, school boys and and youth teams, and had great success, and then, and then, all of a sudden, you're coaching professionals. Now, I understand the professionals at that time is not, maybe the same as it is professional now, but even then, it's a big jump. And I think you know, athletes that are playing for the love of sport generally engage with it in one particular way. Athletes that are engaging in it for a paycheck, it becomes a little bit more transactional. Did you find that? Or how did you find that jump from from the school boys? Well, they
Roy Masters 13:15
I found it fairly be a school teacher apart from communication skills, features you to be very organized. Several moment for me came when I was at peremp in 1974 an assistant coach down there, and I was about the ninth or 10th car in a lineup of about 50 cars with three grades of players were all waiting to get into the end of the oval, but the door the door the ground, the big gates at The Oval, was locked simply because the committee man who was responsible for that decided to have an extra couple of beers across the police club. And so one man, because he wanted to have two more beers or one more beer, was holding up 50 footballers, all of them were part time, and all of them had big, often big, long drives afterwards to get home, to have dinner, to go to bed, to get up to work the next morning at five o'clock as a British labor or a builder or something like that. So I thought to myself, remember thinking to myself, I'll have a key, and I'll be up there, and all the wits will be in the right position on the field, and I'll have pieces of game plan. Now, some paper for them. I'm going to shave hours and hours and wasted time off their working week, and I did that very early in the piece. And also encompass video, some of the learning techniques that you're using at kids at school, video analysis of football teams and things of that nature. So, that's that was one of the, in fact, at that time. And there was, I reckon, that era where I coach was probably the most revolutionary, and rugby league, five of the 12 first grade coaches were all school teachers. And so the professionalism, very. Quickly,
Hugh McCutcheon 15:01
very good here. Before
Paul Barnett 15:03
I ask my follow up, can I come back to you for a minute? Because I can see that the positivism aspect and the love of sport connected with you, and from from the knowledge of your background, that 2008 American team were underdogs as well, I know that the form was lifting heading into that tournament, but if, if I'm right, you were also considered outsiders for that gold medal.
Hugh McCutcheon 15:28
Well, yeah, I think, I mean, if you go back to 2005 at the beginning of the campaign, yeah, we weren't, we weren't the next hot team, or whatever we were. You know, no one was expecting us to win after Athens all of a sudden, you know, us wasn't the team to watch by any means. It's so kind of building. We also had to try to build our own narrative, but, but, but, but we chose to go a little bit different in that, you know, for example, one of the things that I think I mentioned Brazil at the time, was the number one team in the world. Their budget was 24 times what ours was, and so it was really one up to us to make sure we got the most out of everything we had and and, more importantly, focus on the things we did have, not what we didn't have. You know, Comparison is the thief of joy and all that. But more importantly, try to try to think about how, well, what was our competitive advantage, what could we play to, and who could we become? It was more like creating a vision of what we could be versus what we what we weren't and and so the reason you know those, those two things, when I, when I was playing as a as a collegiate athlete, and as an athlete in New Zealand, obviously, you're not getting paid to play. And it was, for the love of the game, when I played professionally, it was, it was much different. You know, that whole transactional nature of it makes it much different. And so finding coaches that actually have, I'm going to use the word a soul and all of that, you know, that they really care about their athletes outside of the field of play was something really, that really helped. And I think obviously Roy, you know, showed his genuine care and concern for his athletes, by the way he prepared and what he put into it. You know, even though they were getting a paycheck, he was going to give him everything they had. And but I just thought that was great. I mean, to me, that's the way you should do it. Yeah.
Paul Barnett 17:18
So Roy Penrith, Panthers, 1974 you're on the youth panel. You're working your way up four years later, 1978 head coach at Western suburbs. But what's really remarkable is, in 19 7960 minutes, come along and they do a story on you and your team the western suburbs. Magpies, I searched and searched and searched. I found the copy of that that interview, and I'd like to ask you a question, but I'd like to firstly play a little bit of audio from that wonderful story, and then I'll ask the question,
Roy Masters 17:56
let him lose your natural aggression, because this is just as though some of the virtual bloody house down, I'm taking your job away from is that something that they've all tried to take away from us our aggression, and as soon as they take our aggression away from us, we've
Paul Barnett 18:09
now, apologies, I had to beep out that last bit of because, of course, we are a show, an all ages show, but Roy that quote that natural aggression is fascinating, because I think it's, it's back in the news these days, and I wanted to talk to you about the ethos we hear there, and how you feel about it when I play it back to you now.
Roy Masters 18:34
Well, I think those words still resound today. The it's controlled aggression, or whatever you like, to court. I mean, the target zone, where your tackle these days has changed considerably. It's dropped down a lot lower. Any contact with the head, of course, is results in significant punishment, not that in that little burst that I used there was I saying to attack the Barnett the head. But what was happening?
The greatest asset we well, one of the assets we had at Western Suburbs was a very aggressive pack of Fords that actually relished the battle. There was a quote from Woody Hayes, the Ohio State college coach in American football that I like five yards a cloud of dust and a bucket of blood, which became a title of the west of a book of the western suburbs era. And they really studied Gresham. They released the competitiveness of it. But there was a little byproduct to all of that, and that is that opposition teams believe that if they matched us with that aggression on the football field, they had superior skill than we did, and I reckon at that time, that our skill was significantly underrated by the opposition. So the more and more. That I pushed that narrative of physical aggression and anger and drive and ferocious tackling and five yards and a cloud of dust and a bucket of blood, the more the opposition believed, well, if we can match them with that well when, because we got better skill, well and underestimate their skill. And as I say some of our great tribes from that era was caught caused by backline moves and wings scoring in the corner.[PB2]
Paul Barnett 20:28
And I can't let you dodge it, if your grandkids listen to it today. You started off by telling as you've got 10, does it still stack up, and do you still feel comfortable with it?
Roy Masters 20:40
Yes, I do. And I look at the stall and grand final against Penrith, which and I'll be speaking with Craig Bellamy in about a week's time, when he comes back from a break, and I will say to him that I believe that the Panthers were far more aggressive in the grand final than our guys
Paul Barnett 20:58
were. You and I, we have interviewed some American football coaches, and they do talk about it very gladiatorial as well. They do bring this, this idea of battle to the forefront in their descriptions of the game.
Roy Masters 21:11
Well, I mean, the Panthers, they actually wound back the clock a little bit too, because they but I'm sort of arguing against myself in some ways, that whole game plan at theirs to beat the storm at the grand final is based on ferocious tackling. That's where they beat the storm. And there were only three tries they scored, and two as a result of bombs, that is to say, the high kicks. But they were largely motivated by a comment that was made four years earlier when the storm beat them in a grand final in 2020 when they said to the they said to the one of the storm players after that actually the storm in Victoria, as he said to the base, he said to the Penrith players, get back to mount. Get back to mount Groot, which is seen to be an underprivileged suburb, about the full of the Blue Mountains, but still feeling them. So I know that they won, and I know it's counter negative motivation. It's counter to everything that I've been saying, but it's still on that particular day drove their defense, and that was, as I said, they were far more aggressive than us.
Hugh McCutcheon 22:22
Sorry to interrupt, I was just going to answer that, though. But the thing that's part of the the coaching toolkit is, you know, it's not that this idea of quote, unquote, need of coaching isn't a thing. I mean, you can get a short term gain, you know, unless, here we are in the grand final, then you try to hang your hat on something. Well, here we go. Let's have a crack at them for this comment from four years ago, and if that gets you a shorter term burst and all that, you know, it's worth understanding that's part of the toolkit. That's all, yeah,
Roy Masters 22:55
and it's not as though that comment drove the whole season long, because, yeah, right, they had another 15 appointments to speak that year. Yeah.
Hugh McCutcheon 23:03
But if it's not personal, especially in a context sport, or collision sport, as you call it, Roy, yeah, in what is it? It's got to be personal. You've got to find some way to make it very real. So good, good for them, yeah.
Paul Barnett 23:19
So, Roy, 10 years you're a first grade coach before you walked away and started your third career in the media. Three occasions, you were Coach of the Year, and twice you were runners up. To this day, you're still regarded as one of the finest coaches to have never won a premiership, but you were able to turn around financially struggling clubs and have them perform above what many would consider to be their ability. What have you learned along the way about making the most when you have the least?
Roy Masters 23:55
Well, you've got to have pride in your own assets, your own skills, and you've got to have great unity of teamwork. And I pushed that very, very strongly, even to the extent of my own detriment. In 1985 while I was coaching St George, we did what has never been done since, and that is, have all three teams. That's the first grade, reserve grade, and the under 20 threes all make the grand final. We were minor premise in all three grades, and we made the grand final, and the under 20 threes won, and they reserved grade one, and the first grade got beaten by one single point. Now that was a case where unselfishness undid me. That was to my detriment, because we had worked on a club ethos all year long that we've got. That we are going to be the best club, and so therefore I did not hold any players back in reserve, so that the first grade team, when they took the field at the Grand Final, there was no four fresh reserves or the bench like you have today. The four best, next best players were all playing reserve grade. And then then the reserve grade team, he nodded that cage hold Eddie back. The next four best players were in the other 20 threes. So we got written by a point. And I often think to myself, had I been a lot more selfish then that would might. We might have been able to put out a couple of fresh reserves right at the end of the end of the match and clinch that game, but it would have been at odds with everything that I'd set out to achieve throughout the year, which is the club is and the team is far better than the desires of the individuals. And I, to some extent, today, still wake up in the middle of the night thinking I should have had a couple of fresh reserves, but the history books still maintain that we're the last team to win all three put all three teams in a grand final. Still not quite proud about that. Is[PB3]
Paul Barnett 26:12
that ethos? What attracts you to working at Melbourne?
Roy Masters 26:16
It is because that is where you see so much harmony, the I have the integration of the office staff, with the training staff, with the playing staff, with the board, that is a really integrated operation and and then you'll see the players who are the shadow players, the ones who go off weekends and Playing second tier competitions in order to get match fitness. You can see the way that they embrace the top boys and admire them and help them with their training drills. It is, it is a genuine team ethos and a wonderful club, and it assists that it operates in isolation down here in Melbourne, which is basically an AFL city. And so from that point of view, their own companies, their own reward, and it's their own distraction, that is, they are not distracted by anything else they can walk down Collins Street, the main street of Melbourne, nobody would recognize them. It's a little bit like the swans used to be way back in Sydney in the early days. What role
Paul Barnett 27:25
does the head coach playing in gluing that situation together?
Roy Masters 27:29
They really have only ever had one ultimate, great, successful coach. He came in about 2004 prior to that, they'd won one Premiership. It's it's, he said that the groundwork of the club was Ray was laid down very strongly by two former players, both of whom I coached, actually, John Rebo, who I coached western suburbs, and Chris Johns, who was the chief executive, who I coach at St George. They came to Melbourne. They set up the club in the wake of end in the Super League war. They put it on some very strong foundations, and then they had a couple of years struggling. They did win their premiership in only their second year, but then they slipped. And then along came Bellamy, and he was helped initially by having a case a nucleus of three very, very talented players in different positions, all of him with the nucleus of their greatness, which is to say, perhaps the greatest player of all time, Cameron Smith, over 401st grade games, Cuba Crocker, Hart back, and Billy Slater, a brilliant full back. And then the team was formed around them, and that success has regenerated itself every year since.
Hugh McCutcheon 28:43
So back to you, Roy, you, you just decided to leave coaching, which, which I too, am a recovering coach, just for disclosure. About 18 months ago, I stepped away from it, now doing some different stuff, which has been great, but you started in journalism, administration and an inaugural member of the Australian Sports Commission, you know, when you left coaching, was there a, was there a, the space was there a, was there a, you know, did you feel like you left it on at a good point? Any regrets about net, or was it easy to move on? You know? So I think for some it can be one way. For some that don't think twice. How was it for you?
Roy Masters 29:25
It was fairly easy transition to me, because what I'd been doing in even though, when I was a full time Rugby School teacher, I was also, as I've indicated, coaching part time, such as when I was at Penrith, I was also a school teacher. And then when I moved to western suburbs, the newspapers asked me to write a column. So there I was also a football coach at a transitional journalist. So then I moved across to St George, where I continued to write a column for the newspaper. And then in this. Summer time, they would actually encourage me to write about cricket and other sports, even politics, at some stage. So then I so by the time I had left St George as coach, I had become pretty much wedded with the media, and I was able, therefore to then, then, they, of course, that very first year, they sent me off to cover the solar Olympics. So within four months of finishing coaching, I had really embraced this new role of journalism and was right into it that became, you know, in other words, led a very diversified life and and I didn't, nonetheless, maintain my links with rugby league by not only by writing about it, but some of my own players were starting to become coaches such as Tom radonicus and players like that, Craig young and George and so they would call upon me from time to time I didn't get what jollies I needed from still associating with the with those guys at the clubs that they coach,
Hugh McCutcheon 31:04
a little mentoring well. And I think, from the sounds of things, you know, one of the traps in the coaching profession, of course, is that the job becomes who you are versus what you do. And you know, sounds like you did a really good job of separating your identity from your from your coaching and your team's outcomes. And that's that's healthy, and I think it really helps that transition as well. So yeah, well done. Now, obviously, you know, times are changing. We've talked about that. And my guess is, I, from what I could gather, you were born in 1941 middle of World War Two, or actually, you know, kind of in the guts of it, right? And so many of your teachers, many of your coaches, people of influence in your career, as you were growing up in your formative years, would have been touched by that, that global event. And even there might have been some militaristic, you know, overtone to the way things were, yeah, obviously, you know, your grandkids, you spoke about them, and times are different. There hasn't been a global war of that magnitude or anything like that, and so I don't know, and as you see, the way kids are being coached today, and not to overstep or overstate the influence of World War Two on that time, but we can't change the fact that it was a thing. So so now that we're in today's world, maybe the influences are different. But you know, when you see your grandkids, are they being coached? Well, do you like the way they're being coached? They're being taught the right things? Do you think they have the right kind of structure, the right kind of values, the right kind of messaging around it? How do you feel about coaching today for young people?
Roy Masters 32:55
Well, I certainly don't want for good grounds in which to play. You know, you don't see massive patches of mud like we used to have. They all have a football each they
Hugh McCutcheon 33:09
follow with their name on it, probably with their name on it. Yeah,
Roy Masters 33:13
they're very well catered for, particularly here in Melbourne, with the AFL and Auskick. They are extremely well looked after in terms of their equipment and so on. The the area nonetheless, and the coaching is quite good in terms of skill development and evolution, but the area, I think personal accountability has really gone out, and the the fear of damaging a person psychologically by berating them. I never endorse cruel, brutal, vicious honesty by a coach where He belittles an athlete. I've never seen that. There have been coaches in Sydney who have been legendary in their in their vicious putting down of players, I think that's almost criminal, but I do think we've gone far too much the other way, and that we are not challenging the personal accountability of players a player today. And I'm talking you're asking me more about grandchildren,
but I can't help but think of the modern footballer. He's closer to his manager than he is to his coach, and I think that if and he will make a complaint to his manager, who will immediately get on the phone to the club and suggest that he's going to cut him off to some other club, I think modern players are losing their own personal accountability, booking themselves in the mirror and saying, Look, I did not have a good game today, and go back over it. But in terms of the youth, yeah, again, there's probably a little bit too much of. Don't worry, darling, you had a really good game, and it didn't matter, and all the rest of it. I just, I wouldn't go that far as we are in today's society.[PB4]
Hugh McCutcheon 35:09
No, I would tend to agree. I think as coaches, you've got to be demanding. And I also agree, never demeaning, right? But, but we're trying to, we're trying to achieve something significant. We're not going to do that by just placating or, you know, I mean, you talk about on average outcomes, you just go for average work ethic, you know, that's
Roy Masters 35:31
right? Well, you talk about the military and and, in some ways, organized sport, particularly at a professional level, the greatest comparison with it is the military, in the sense that it is the one place where the personal aims of others can be at odds with the team ethos and that you you know you make A mistake on the football field, not that I would ever eat quite playing sport with fighting a battle there, where there's actually bullets going, but you throw a bad pass, okay, you're letting the team down because he's going to drop the ball and try scoring opportunities lost. But you don't do guard duty. You fall asleep on guard duty. What happens? You know, your teammates gonna get shot, the whole thing, but Italians get blown up. I mean, it is the one area where you've got to subjugate your personal ambitions for the one of the team. And I we use, we, even in those early days of coaching, we use some of the war Tommy radonicus, love showing them pattern, a movie pattern. General George Patton, sure. And I actually can remember using a little bit of pattern at one stage where George, General George, got all the all the team together, and he was talking about the coming barrels and how they are going to end their career as either have a good war or a bad war. And he said, and you don't want to see a little this is bringing up my little grandchildren. You don't want to put your grandchild on your knee. And he says to you, what did you do, grandfather in The Great World War Two, and you'll say to him, Well, son, ah, shovel shit in Louisiana. In other words, when you're playing with western suburbs, you know, what did you do in the Great West 1978 western suburbs here? Well, actually, I didn't make that trip here, and I was serving beer up in Nashville League club.
Paul Barnett 37:47
Well, can I, can I take us from shoveling in Louisiana to empathy? And I wanted to play back a quote to you, to you, Roy, before I asked the question. So I haven't got the audio for this one, but it's what someone that you said in a previous interview, you've said, I have enormous empathy with these players, and I like to portray that empathy and give those messages to the wider public to understand what champions we've had and how we still should love our champions. Now, I think at the time the quote was was about Tom radonicus and his passing, but empathy as a leader, it's a challenge for all of us. You know too much can cloud your judgment too little, and you lose connection with people. But what have you learned around getting that balance right?
Roy Masters 38:38
Well, the people sit in the ground and they see a bloke trial band pass and they say, Oh, well, he's getting $800,000 a year, and he shouldn't be doing that. You know, he's getting more in a week than I earn in a month. But then again, you also go to training, and you see the massive contact between them and the hard hits that they do. And you think particularly with the increasing numbers of Polynesian players that we've now got in Rugby League, which is nearly 50% and you realize and understand the disadvantaged backgrounds that they come from, and that the need that they have to feed their vast extended family. And you do understand based on the physical commitment that they make and the social challenges that they have, you do feel a great deal of empathy. It's only that empathy only ever runs out when they become what I might term uncouchable. That is to say they're not listening. They've joined another world in their mind, they, they become they, they've committed what is the biggest sin in rugby league. They become big headed. And we never, ever want that. You.
Hugh McCutcheon 40:00
Yeah, so you mentioned your work with the storm, and in particular Craig Bellamy, who's obviously one of the one of the best coaches out there in your code. And you know, we talked a little about negative and positive reinforcement motivation. But you know, is there anything from Craig that you'd say you you think he does particularly well in the space of motivation, in a listeners learn? Well,
Roy Masters 40:23
it's not so much motivation now, it's skill development and evolution. That is the area where he is. I can go to training and I can see a player, maybe a coach, the other day, leaping high for a ball, and there was a little bit of a fumble, and he turned to the assistant, and he said, Take work on did 20 minutes with Xavier after training, getting him to turn his body a little bit more as he had his left hand arm to reach up a bit higher and use his right arm more as a trap. He in a mind's eye, he can see a skill and see how that skill can be enhanced. And so consequently he is a he is the best technical coach in the history of the game. There would have been better psychological coaches, there would have been better strategic coaches, tactical coaches, but essentially, he makes players better. And so consequently they appreciate that, because they can see that little bit of skill detection that they saw that technique evolution, development, they can see anything working for them, and they'll go back for more. Love it. Yeah,
Hugh McCutcheon 41:30
athletes are addicted to improvement. There's no doubt about that. You know, I always say that fundamental mastery is the cornerstone of the mental game. You know, like a lot of coaches will reduce some kind of deficiency, and they'll say it's a mental deficiency, you know, but really it's a technical inefficiency. So yeah, then, yeah, you're going to be all right.
Roy Masters 41:53
So they'll say, for example, when tackling that he's got his head in the wrong position, you know, he's It's cowardly, or something like that. But it's not that he's COVID. He hasn't been actually taught to use his legs, driving in the tackle or something like that. He bounces off that because he didn't come in hard enough. Well, he didn't come in hard enough because he didn't use his legs properly. Yeah, exactly.
Hugh McCutcheon 42:14
Love it. Love it. I also have a quote from you. It said, says there's the two principal qualities that were important for my success, whether you must be extremely honest with the men underneath you, and secondly, you must have very effective communication, which obviously means you must know what you're talking about. So I agree. Certainly the second part, you've got to be a credible source of knowledge and information, that's clear. But as far as honesty here, I think a lot of people have different takes on that. Do you think you can be too honest dealing with your athletes, or is it more to it than that?
Roy Masters 42:48
Well, I don't think you can be too honest, but you can deliver the message in a brutally harsh manner, and that can be counterproductive. But yeah, yeah, I take your point that if you can't just straight out and say to a player, look your bloody hopeless mate, give it away, even though it might be very tempting to say that, but and it won't even be true. No way. I think, I think if I'd like to use a term incremental honesty is probably very important. That is to say that you give the message, but in increments of truth, yeah, yeah.[PB5]
Hugh McCutcheon 43:33
Well, and I'd also say, like, I agree. Like, you've got to be you've got to operate in truth. You got to be honest. But it can be kind empathetic truth. It doesn't have the I think sometimes we think honest is a license to be mean, you know, to just tear one off, though, and you know, they get after the kid, but hey, we got to be considerate. Tell them the truth, but in a way that they can understand. And, yeah, yeah, we can move on
Paul Barnett 43:59
just a couple more from the Roy, I know you've got to get those 10,000 steps in, and then get ready for that beer at the end of the day. I want to take you back to your childhood. You were born in Newtown, just a stone's throw from where I live here in Sydney. If I could take you back and introduce you to that that that child that was born there, the eldest of seven, what would you say to them?
Roy Masters 44:27
Well, I would say, probably, to have a happy marriage. I would say that would be key. And I say that to my children that can be very, very successful in your work. And I've you can have three different careers, but if you're going to have one good, happy marriage that beats almost everything,[PB6]
Paul Barnett 44:57
from marriage to leg. See, you've cast such a big shadow over the game that you love. You've both. You've you've touched and influenced players through your coaching and through your media work and through your mentoring work. I would like to ask you what you hope is the legacy that you've left with so many of these young people you've been involved with.
Roy Masters 45:24
Well, when I when I run into players from other clubs, the thing that I like that they sometimes say to me is that your players all love Jill, and that essentially is what I would want to hear. It's sometimes said to be by other players and sometimes by my own too, of course, but that's essentially what I would would like to hear.[PB7]
Paul Barnett 46:02
Roy, Roy, it's been a privilege to spend an hour or so with you today. It's, it's a great story. It's, it's one of think it's a great Australian six story coming from a small town climbing the heights that you have with your sport. And I wish you all the best for your many seasons ahead with the storm. Let's hope we get another premier. Premiership next year. It's my team as well. But thank you very much for your time.
46:28
Thank you very much, Paul,
Hugh McCutcheon 46:29
good thank you, Roy. Really a privilege to be a part of, and thanks for spending some time with us,
Roy Masters 46:35
mate. Thanks very much. Good luck in the US.
Paul Barnett 46:37
You're listening to the great coaches podcast. Thank you. What did you think to Roy masters,
Hugh McCutcheon 46:46
oh, a, wonderful a, I mean, what a, what a privilege. And the, I think the thing that was just wonderful about it was, you know, you have, like I said, you have the snapshot of 79 and I understand listeners probably maybe have a broader context of all the other work he's done in between that but, but even if you didn't to hear him kind of reflect on the last 4550 years of coaching and involvement in sport and being around it and and the lessons learned. And you know that he's still in it and still learning and still getting better. I mean, it just was wonderful that we should all be that lucky. You know, was great five
Paul Barnett 47:27
yards, a cloud of dust and a bucket of blood,
Hugh McCutcheon 47:33
yeah? Well, listen, I think part of it, you know, we talk to these football coaches, obviously rugby league as well, and in sports where it's inherently violent, you know that military parallel, or that idea of going into battle, even though, as Roy said, it's so different because it's, you know, sports, sport, it's not necessarily life or death, but you know that there are similarities. And I think there's some parts to being able to motivate to get into, into that state where you have to be ready to take on, you know, all that goes with it. I can see why, why that that phrase resonates, you know, because American football, that's where it stems from. It's absolutely a battle of game adventures and yards and and all the rest of it, and rugby league, when you watch those games from the from the late 70s and early 80s and rugby league, I mean, my gosh, they were warriors as well. No doubt,
Paul Barnett 48:34
one of the things that really resonated with me was this idea that pride and unity can overcome less resources because, you know, the vast majority of us are in working in organizations that are not the market leader, or we're in teams that are not the most resourced. So finding a way to compete is something, you know, we all get out of bed to do, try and do every day. So I love that story and how we unpack that I
Hugh McCutcheon 49:00
did too, and it made me think of wood and, you know, you earn the right to be proud and confident. And, you know, I think part of being able to stand out there in the arena and be proud of who you are and what you're about is feeling like you've done the work and that you're prepared and and so I think a lot of you know, we talked about that idea of him being a teacher and then and then, kind of finding out how to how to motivate his athletes in the in the moment of competition. But I think that idea of preparing and being ready for it is his athletes the chance to feel proud of who they were and what they were about.
Paul Barnett 49:33
You're over there in America where pushing your own image, talking about yourself and your achievements, is more accepted than perhaps it is in other parts of the world. And Roy said the biggest sin in Rugby league is to become a big hit. How did you feel about that quote? Well,
Hugh McCutcheon 49:57
I can understand what the. Perception of conflict around there. But I think what he's speaking to is the notion that, you know, hey, in any team sport, you've got to somehow be able to reconcile your personal agenda with the team agenda. Now, those two things don't necessarily be mutual. Don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive, but the team agenda needs to take precedent. So if you're the big head, then it's about you and, and in a team sport, it, it can't be it's got to be about the team and, and I think, you know, when he was speaking towards the end about how athletes have a better relationship with their manager than they do with their coaches, I mean that that's kind of where it's gone to. Now you know that we're part of a team, but it's conditional. And, you know, we're all trying to build a brand, or whatever we're supposed to do and increase our market value. And so there's no personal accountability. Well, diminished personal accountability because you want to deflect versus take full responsibility and and so I think that's what he was trying to say in the comment. But I, I also think you kind of spoke to the reality of today's world, which is more complicated. I think unifying teams right now is, is, is hard, you know? I mean, that's why you need something really, really personal to attach it to that everyone can, can buy into. Because I don't, I don't know if just winning is enough anymore. You know you're we were talking
Paul Barnett 51:23
before, and you, you're about to run off to to class. You're going to talk to the incoming student athletes at the university there. Yeah, I'm wondering how today's conversation may influence what you're about to go and say to
Hugh McCutcheon 51:38
them. Well, yeah, we're talking about high functioning teams. And, you know, because we've talked a little bit about how teams operate and in some of these podcasts, but we're going to try to help them understand how to be better at working with each other and and one of the constant themes is this idea of one, they have a responsibility to to work and to learn, and obviously they've got to compete, but they also have to be great teammates. And I think we tend to not, not diminish that, but, but almost, almost give these athletes no guard rails or no boundaries around what teammate behavior looks like. We just expect it to either kind of coalesce or or not. You know, we build team chemistry. We don't. So I'm really trying to give them some structure around what good team behavior looks like and and maybe that's something that that even Roy would be interested in, this idea of, you know, to build teammates probably was, well, and again, sorry. Now we're off on a really big tangent. But I think us socialization and Australia, New Zealand, socialization is a little bit different you made to your mates. And here, it's not quite like that. But that being said, giving people really clear boundaries around what's expected when you're on a team, and what that teammate behavior looks like, I think that probably would resonate with them, because back in the day, they were your teammates, and they were your friends, and it was, you were in it. Like I said earlier, I think these days it gets to be more transactional, and, and, and so to that end, you know, finding those common points of connection and that whole unity is is much different endeavor. So being able to spell it out and make sure it's really clear what's expected, I think, I think that helps, but anyway, that that's what we're going into. But I think relative to what would today influence me, relative to going into this, into this discussion, I'd say, just trying to stress that, you know that that importance of being a teammate and and team first, the rising tide lifts all the boats. You know that's that's a really important thing. No one wins championships alone, not in team sports, and
Paul Barnett 53:41
just maybe one last thing before, before we, uh, we close out towards the end. There you were both talking about athletes being addicted to improvement, and you were both talking about this idea of technical inefficiency, not mental deficiency. Yeah, I found that absolutely fascinating. I'm wondering if you could unpack how you would be looking at someone and what might be going through your mind to evaluate whether it is a technical inefficiency or whether there's something going on in the mental
Hugh McCutcheon 54:19
space. Well, yeah, I mean, the it goes back to this idea of teaching versus coaching, right? And I think if you're going to choose one to be good at, be a great teacher, because I think if you can teach the game and the skills and the systems, then the coaching tends to take care of itself. And the differentiation would be that the coaching is what we do on the weekends and the in the teachings what we're doing during the weddings, right? So to that end, because not everyone understands the laws of learning, especially as it pertains to sport. Oftentimes, when we look at it purely through a coaching lens, we see athletes failure to perform. Them in the moment, and that because, again, because we're not grounded in teaching, we see that then failure to perform as a mental deficiency, versus if we have maybe a more teaching slash biomechanical lens to view this from, then we could see that, oh, here are these inefficiencies, these biomechanical inefficiencies that are part of the mechanics. And that's really the issue. It's not really whether their heads in it or not. It's just that the mechanics aren't right, and so that it depends whether you could see the gains through the mechanics of it, or if you just see it through the kind of the x's and o's and the tactics of the systems, versus actually the really, the real skills and how they how they performed. So that's the gist of it. But I thought that was also kind of a an interesting thing, that it resonated with him as well. And I loved his examples. I mean, they were right on. He absolutely, he absolutely was was aligned. And I don't always find that to be the case, so I thought that was cool.
Paul Barnett 56:03
You always enjoy interviewing other great coaches with you. Lovely to chat with you again. Look forward to doing it again soon. Yeah, sounds
Hugh McCutcheon 56:13
great. Always a pleasure. Yeah, it's just they're really a privilege, and Roy was great. So thanks for including me. You.