Sean Dyche Edit
Mon, 5/30 7:53AM • 34:32
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
players, manager, football, people, bit, thought, team, game, feel, laugh, questions, real, coaches, life, play, anxiety, culture, season, shawn, ego
SPEAKERS
Paul Barnett, Sean Dyche
Paul Barnett 00:00
Shawn dodge. Good evening, and welcome to the great coaches podcast.
Sean Dyche 00:04
Good evening. I'm very excited to talk to you.
Paul Barnett 00:06
But before I get into all things, leadership, maybe something easy. Could you tell us where you are in the world and what you've been up to so far today?
Sean Dyche 00:14
I mean, Natyam, we changed family bases about nine or 10 months ago from Northampton to Nottingham kids were getting older needed a bit more kind of life, if you like. Yeah, move back there. I mean, obviously started being a while I don't really I'm living about three or four different places, usually. And so yeah, I'm just taking about a timeout and doing the stuff I've been putting off for nine and a half years, you promised all them friends, and you promise them people you've met down the years. Yeah, we'll do that. And we'll come and do this. And we'll come do that. And then you never get around to doing it. So just some simple stuff, just literally visiting people catching up for a coffee catch up for a better dinner, a few beers here and there, but a golfer and they just stuff, and then some good stuff as well. I've got an amazing invite to go to Monaco to watch the Grand Prix, which is amazing. And the Champions League, which I've done before, but still great. I really like music, so I'll be going to a few gigs. I think I'm gonna go and seek Sabian I know them a little bit and said, because I know they're playing with Liam Gallagher down at Knebworth. So kind of just a mixed bag of real life stuff, stuff that you just have to put off constantly. And I've been putting that stuff off for nine and a half years. I'm gonna cram something in the summer and stuff. But weekends and stuff are tied up and you find that you just miss out on all these. Sometimes simple stuff is as much fun little barbecue remakes and stuff you miss out and all that but sometimes the big stuff that you get by too and you just can't do so. Yeah, a bit of mixture of everything.
PAUL
I am very thankful to carve out a little bit of your time while you're reigniting your social life. But Sean, can I start by name checking some of the great coaches that you've had experience with now? These are the four biggest names I think I've probably come across it Brian cloth, Sir Alex Ferguson, arson, venga. And David Moyes. And I know, there's a whole pile of others. We were talking about Eddie Jones a minute ago, too. But I'd be really interested to know from your perspective and experience. What is it you think the great coaches do differently that sets them apart?
SEAN
Well, I think in that in four cases, there are different styles, but the same underbelly is the environment they work, they build first of all, and they work on and they protect the culture, if you like, as well that aligns with that.
So culture and environment will get thrown around in sport all the time. And in business, I'm sure. And people just think you just flick a switch and it just happens and everyone aligns. It doesn't work like that. And it takes time it takes energy, it takes commitment to keep reinforcing the key values that you want to make that kind of culture and to make that mindset and that that environment and align, which simple sign but all nose is pointed in the right direction. And it takes time. [PB1]
And the underbelly of them guys work is that they find their way and all in different styles. Of course, I mean, also manga has got a completely different view, I'm sure and style than Alex Ferguson. But their teams know what they stood for. They knew how they were going to go about their business. They knew how they treated their selves treated each other treat people around them. And it seems like a common theme through a lot of high performing teams high performing managers, simple stuff in in rugby and stuff like that, that code they have and stripping back some of the BS when you use the real word. That means stripping some of that crap out and kind of clearing the deck so to speak, so that everyone knows is pointing the right direction. So I certainly know when the obvious ones Brian Clifton at Nottingham Forest, everyone knew he was the boss. Everyone knew how to work there. Everyone on the team played Alex Ferguson was very similar. Something probably a little bit more different over time. But don't forget for people do forget, he learned a culture that really really early took away the old fashioned English thing took away the drinkin after games improve the Dyer improve the fitness levels and people forget that because they got his teams played this way and that way but no one remembers that in the origins of his time there. He actually set the environment. It didn't really go radical on the football. The first thing he asked for for two and a half sim from France who were technically good and played them in midfield is kind of like ended up being top players and enforces is particularly the era of course to amazing goalscorers and loose Weidman Well, that's a pretty English team, actually. But he was changing the culture. He was chained to that team prepared, Alec got ready. It's fitness levels it seems mental fitness, etc, etc, etc. And then Boise in a different way. Boise I think because I spoke recently with a group of coach are the leaders in sport and I openly said I said, I think that was an amazing job because Western has been a funny club for years and it can't quite find its way and there's a lot of different voices there a lot of different weird energy about the crowd and how the crowd treat to treat the team. And he's managed to format our team in quite a methodical way but still have a nice edge in the way they play. Not over again, anything about modern brand and modern style, sticking with the fundamentals, treating them like men, getting them fit, getting them motivated, and in a different way to come out of what he's been through with the Man United saying and then Sunland and all that. And of course when he Westham, and then came out of it when they felt they appointed someone who maybe they thought was better or fitted better and gone back and done an amazing job. So then guys in all different ways, but it seems to me they always given the underbelly of getting the culture, right, getting all noses pointed in the right direction. And if people don't I get rid of
Paul Barnett 05:17
Sean, one of the ideas, I've heard you speak about many times this whole idea of top coaches, or top thieves, I always really wanted to take it one step further, though and say, or ask you rather, is there an example of something you've thieved that's really helped you in your own self development?
Sean Dyche 05:35
There's loads of little things. I mean, it's not really I suppose it's a little bit I look back at it,
simplicity is still really important. Keeping things simple, keep your dialogue. So it's really difficult because most coaches in any any field, I've got countless amounts of energy thoughts going through their mind, and to strip that back and come up with key moments and key phrase or key lines. So simplicity is something I know that I'm nicked it, but it's kind of it gets overlooked, especially in the modern, if I just use football as an example, because I'm kind of in it well about that at the moment, by the way. But I'm generally I use that as an example, then you can get trapped in that modern is modern thing where you know, you've got to be talking in these weird and wonderful ways. And you've got to be sharing all the information using trendy words. And sometimes you've got to strip all that out and go, Whoa, what are the players? What do they need to know? So I'm not sure if I've done much of the that. But that seems to be a common theme about what I've noticed. Themes and things. I think it's more like the old fashioned sayings and things. They're just silly things like get on the front foot, things like that. I mean, well, he's been using that for years, I brought a cloth used to say that I get on the front foot, had it and kick it and you've done your job to send rafts and things like that is simple terminologies. [PB2]
So yeah, I mean, I can't think too many off the bat. But I do think that generally you, you steal ideas, but then you mold them into your own because you're going to deliver them in a different way than who you stole them from, of course. But I do think most most top coaches are top thieves. And somewhere down the line, they'll have expert Well, the obvious one who's a genius at it. And he actually tells the world he's a genius, and it is Marina, because he studied under Bobby Robson, he learned languages. He watched coaching styles, II watched warmups. But then what he did that was clever is he sort of nicked it, but then formulated it. So he didn't literally see that, and then just display it as his own, and then formulate it with his own twist his own feel, and turned it into something that made him one of the top manager around the world of all time, or certainly in a group of top managers of all time.
Paul Barnett 07:33
Well, talking about the evening, I've got this quote from you. And you were telling me just off here that it's not yours, but I'm still going to read it to you anyway, before I ask the question, because it's a great quote on leadership, you actually say, knowing what to do when you don't know what to do is a really good way of describing leadership. Is there an example that you've seen recently, it doesn't have to be from the football world, it can be from wherever, where you've seen someone really apply this successfully?
Sean Dyche 07:59
Yeah, I couldn't, I did make that a little bit. Actually, that was on a course I was on. But I just loved it.
And I thought, because football can be like that, you know, everyone's staring at you. It's not there. So you don't know what to be thinking. I could do 50 different things here. And I've got 50 different voices and 50 different opinions, probably more nowadays with the media and social media and all that sort of stuff. But eventually, everyone's still staring at you an icon, you know what you gotta do, we have to do something. So it kind of does apply, you know, know what to do when you don't know what to do because they're staring at your team staring at yourself and staring at you. So even when you get flummoxed and you get lost, you got to come out with something that makes a difference. [PB3]
I did it myself, we were my first season apparently, because everyone thinks about in the story was quite sort of all glory, really. But my first eight months, I was getting booed off most of that, or certainly half of it. And we were looking over our shoulder we flew like new managers do when you get a job, not always but often, we flew up to seven than we were sort of ran the playoffs. And then we started folding and we had injury problems and all this stuff behind the scenes that fans don't get to see. We're cutting salaries, we're offering diminished contracts out there voluntarily, we've got to cut the money, the board attorney will likely come to sell players and lose players. So then the players agents roles, trying to move them on and all that got injuries and got players not motivated to play for the team. And you're trying to manage all that. Trying to build a culture beyond that and trying to get results of course, and then all of a sudden the results are not coming. And then you've got to find a way of right okay, how can I stick to task which is build this club in a better manner for the future. Try and get results was trying to deal with all the drivel that's going on. And then you start losing or straw in and we had a real bad run.
So comes near the end of the season. And we're looking over our shoulders, and we went to wolves. And it was a I mean a real nervy if I've ever had true anxiety, I mean real like proper medical kind of deep seated anxiety that few weeks coming up around that period of I mean, I've never experienced it. I've never experienced it since either, and we'll go into walls game. And I remember we went in at heart of time, and Martin Patterson had scored. And believe it or not, the day before the game, I had a word with him, I thought you don't look like you're ready for this. And he scored. And I went in our time. And I honestly thought, I don't know, I don't know what to say, I could feel it. And I was thinking, Oh, my goodness, you know, I remember going to the toilet and just standing in the toilet. Now I was on the door composing myself thinking, right, I'm not sure what's going on. And I was like thinking, and that was a biggest moment. Like, know what to do when you don't know what to do. But then you go back to your framework. So I have a framework which you learn from Seneca right? Stick with a framework. So front to back back to front strikers, I want you to do this midfield on your back for when you do this, defensively, I'm going to attack back for what you do this makes the other one you to do that forwards, I want you to do that. So that's my framework. So I thought right stick with your framework, that gives you something to anchor Yeah, it gives you something to base to work from again, it gives you some clarity, because if not, at that moment, you end up just rambling and rambling and rambling, which I'll probably did a little bit more than I remember it. And then we went on, we wouldn't again, and history changed. [PB4]
And we will say well, it was a strange season, that season of the championship, we ended up finishing 11th It sounds mad what you know, three games before we look at our shoulder could have got relegated three games that we finished 11. So that's how crazy that season was. And that was a moment of knowing what to do when you sort of don't know what to do. You have to you have to find some way of seeing through the mist and the feelings and the emotion and go right. Okay, how can I find my way here? And I genuinely was thinking I have no clue what I'm gonna say I've no clue. All I was thinking was please when just please with. I remember being like that, that kind of desperation. And having to hold that back and just stick stick to sort of a game plan if you like. So, yeah, I mean, that's a real life experience. It's not all glory. You know, sometimes it's, you're out your comfort zone. It's very difficult. You're feeling it. But it does make you stronger. It makes you more experienced for the next time. It's your car that when it comes round. Shawn, can
Paul Barnett 11:51
I just ask you about anxiety because you're dealing with a club full of young men, I know a lot of them are very well paid. But I imagine the anxiety in that group must peak and trough and go up and down. Did that experience help you deal with the very normal anxieties of life afterwards with your players?
Sean Dyche 12:11
Yeah, I think either bass player right, some of what anxiety feels like or professional anxiety, of course, we're around gain time and the ceilings before the feelings afterwards. As a manager, it's way different, by the way that feeling after a game when you're a player, win or lose. But obviously a winning heightens at the elation and everything when you're a manager it you feel like super tired. It's almost like playing when you win, it really draws a lot from you. And it's a different kind of feeling. And I think the medical imbalance in your body changes as well. You're managing so many different things. Whereas when you're a play, just managing yourself, really, you're trying to rub off new teammates, but you want to play well you win a game you feel great often is taking so much planning organization focus concentration, when you're a manager, that after that you feel tired, you feel almost depleted really. And then you're sort of running on empty for a while. So that's a different feeling completely. And I think dealing with all them feelings, emotion of it, certainly the more you do it, the more you balance out, the more you get used to the wind that brought on the loss and handling them occasions. [PB5]
I think I've been in too bad. I'm not one No, I've never been one to last and goes on and says right that's out of not going out and not doing anything. I've never, it's not my style. I've never thought that was appropriate.
My ex manager, I think a hell of a lot of John Duncan, I remember he used to say and you'll understand the trainers law is to say, if you go to a funeral, the person who's crying their eyes out and the person who's not, it doesn't mean they're not both human at the same. And I remember thinking that's probably something to hold on to. Now, of course, the fear was not relevant. But the point is, I could be not seeming like I could go home, I can carry on I could go out with friends, I could go out with a wife cut up the kids and handle that. Even though internally, I was still feeling it trust the grounds thinking I could have done that could have done this could have done it could have done this. But that's self management is very, very important. I found how are you managing you? That's a really important thing, because no one actually knows you know how you feel. [PB6]
The reason why after a job I've been rambling now but the reason why after again, managers when they go in the room together, or staff less so with it with a lot of foreign managers culturally, but the old English manager always going to ruin their stars, forgetting about the pandemic and stuff. Thirdly, always the two managers gravitate towards each other because they're the only two who really know how it feels to be in that moment to say now they're the only two people in the room who really know how it feels all the staff are given all their opinions, but they're the only two rarely know how it feels. You
Paul Barnett 14:37
Up until very recently, you were the longest serving coach in the Premier League, you must have had routines to replenish your energy. I mean, you talked about going out with the family. Were there any other things that you did from religiously from a routine to make sure you got up and you kept going? I think I've used
Sean Dyche 14:54
life as a base to bring a bit of reality to what I've done professionally. You still got to go I still got a private kids school. I remember famously we got promoted the first time in Berlin which was like historic and all the story cutting money and all that. The next one I was building a bed, we got a bed and I had to build it, put it together for one of the kids. What do you think I was gonna do just like drink champagne for six months? So I mean, I'm a bit like that anyway, to be fair, and it's often a bad thing. Actually. I was explaining to someone the other day What am I worst qualities? I'm constantly underwhelmed. Honestly, I've done some amazing things. I've been to amazing things and I kind of go good. Alright. is a bad thing. The good thing is it keeps you leveling the job in working in football and the highs and lows. Now I can handle that pretty, pretty evenly. But the bad thing is when you get something really exciting or something amazing, you just gotta go. Alright, so it can't be a bad thing. But yeah, so I'm a bit like that anyway. But yeah, I mean, live grounds you real life grounds? Your it certainly does me. So that does take away some of the emotion and the power of the emotional round what we do as football managers? Well, it does mean it sort of levels me out a little bit.
Paul Barnett 16:02
I heard Barack Obama actually say when someone asked him once what the secret to his success was and he said, My highs are not too high. My lows are not too low. Well, we agree. You're in good company. Intelligent liked him, of course. Shadow without showing, I've got another really good quote from you. I'd love to explore a bit actually, you say one thing I learned was the players have to have enough flexibility to be themselves. And what I liked about this, and what I wanted to ask you was how do you go about managing this line between giving people flexibility, but also making sure there's some adherence to the team rules to the norms that you're trying to sit down? It must be quite challenging. And I'd be interested to know how you go about
Sean Dyche 16:42
that. Well, Biden's the biggest thing. So getting buy in from the players is a massively important thing. Aligning why it's there is I think, very, very important. I mean, funnily enough, when I when it came out, apparently, recently, there was a lot of reports about how the players were now enjoyed it more because it was more open. And literally, I mean, me and my assistants that we laugh about this. I mean, there's genuinely not about what's happened at Burnley, but because I didn't like things like wearing white socks, I've got this thing about an obsession for what they wear white socks, and I go, right Show Tell me a medical reason why white socks are that the blue football socks and so give me a medical reason. So I wouldn't let white socks and the first day we got sacked every player I'd white socks on, and you just kind of I know Yeah. But you have to laugh. And he's playing as being players. That is like the Wicked Witch is Dead over a pair of white socks. But in the early days, we formulated this this part yet again, part of the culture and we said look, there's no medical reason why it sucks. I don't like it's the trend that came in, I said if there was you could wear or any kind of assumption one, wear shin pads, because I want training to be proper, I want it to feel like a game or a feel every day like you're playing a game. And for the obvious injury prevention. I mean, nowadays, it's not much tackling in football anyway. But you gotta remember, I've been there nine and a half years. So that was a simple reason for that. And then what we did really to align, to learn some of the thoughts of plays and the feelings of play.
So players have blades often have egos and you need an ego by the way. So just to be clear, because when you use that word, but it will somehow downgrade and I'm not you need it right. If you're working in front or walking sorry, in front of 70,000 old traffic, you need an ego, you need to have that inner thing that says why I'm ready, I'm going to be the person who's going to make a difference when I'm on many sides. So I didn't want to take that away, but you have to mold it and align it with everyone else. So what we used to do was, try and get the players to realize that look, you're not undermining each other, you can laugh at each other, and you can be with each other. So we do things like in small sided games at the end of a session and losers that to do a dance off in front of the winners and a sing off and stuff out. And the idea was it wasn't embarrassing. It was to make them realize that we're all laughing at each other. It's not about I'm not trying to undermine your belittle. Yeah, I'm trying to let you know that it's fine to be like you can be like that. And we tried to make it an ego in this place when we were in the camera. So one of the biggest things I said when you get to the drive because we had a long drive going into Burnley is when you come through the gates at the front of the drive, take your ego off. When you come in here. We're all as one me included, we'll all have a bit of fun and we'll all share our thoughts will all be just all part of the same thinking. When you go back out, put your ego back on do whatever you want in your private life conduct yourself however you want. Within reason of course. [PB7]
So the thing is with all this listen to some of these podcasts I do quite a lot myself and talks and stuff for people listening or a share in it. So you bring that yeah, hey, oh yeah, cool scores. But when you do in, it's not that easy. You see, people are really really struggling to have a dance off in front of someone else. And yet, rationally they'll go in front of 78,000 Oh, travel and play. Yeah, I've seen a dance off in front of 15 or that makes is like oh my goodness, I just can't do it while singing and funny, right? It's a strange thing that don't embarrass me. You're gonna make him feel so so uncomfortable with some do but once you get through The immediate feeling realizes, Oh, it was just had a you know dance for like 15 that the dancer 15 seconds you got like, and then once they got more used to it, you got people break down. So doing mad stuff, it's all of a sudden they're all in it together and it becomes more fun. And we had a spin where where we used to do fines and we had all sorts, you know, down the years, we've had all sorts of people sitting in a river of appeal, doing lap dances on each other with the boy bands, doing singing, and all sorts. And it was all just designed to strip out the ego and say, Listen, you can be yourself. You don't have to be anyone else in here in the air, you can be yourself, you come in free minded, and just get ready to go.
Paul Barnett 20:40
And that's very powerful. I think I'm going to bring karaoke into the boardroom from now on. So that's a great idea. Sure, when you arrived at Burnley, you gave the players a questionnaire to fill in so that you could get their views on the team culture. Now, if someone else was listening, and they wanted to improve the culture of their team, or they're moving into a new organization, other than a questionnaire, what other tips would you give them to really get under the skin of what that culture is like?
Sean Dyche 21:07
Well, I think the idea, let's face it, you're trying to get him to speak truthfully, you're trying to get truthful feedback. But the reason why the questionnaire people don't like that the modern society, it's not just football is you know, kids everywhere. We always use gloves. And if you give me your phone, if you text me 50 Different reasons about me. Good, bad and indifferent about I asked you to give tell me in front of a group and it's like, we'll just go ahead and shut down. So then we got a questionnaire it was the idea was complete anonymity. If you wanted to put your family you could, if you didn't want to put your name on it, you didn't have to, if you want to think about and put silly, stupid, silly shit on it. You can if you want, but that's not going to help anyone. The idea was that when you feed back, this is your chance to tell me and the staff exactly what you're thinking and exactly what you want. We tried to keep the questions very open, not guiding them to what we thought the answers were. I specifically explained to him I didn't want classroom answers. I said, just tell me the truth. I said, I don't Oh, yeah, we're gonna work really hard. And we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. If you're not feeling it. Don't give me bullshit. Just tell me your real truthful answers about what you think questions mean to you. I think at the time I had a pretty small squad. So there was like 19 1819 players, I would say we've got about 12 or 13 Real ones, obviously yours at one point, we had a football a drawing a bloke, Shaq and a woman and all that, you know, and stuff like that. But that's football. It's been football is the way I've been a football lawyer in football all my life. And there's always one who thinks it's funny and all that sort of stuff. Usually the most fragile person does that, by the way, my experience anyway. Most of them there's about 13 trilled incompletely and really well, there's a few missed out a few questions, which is fine, maybe not for them. And then two or three dict Abell. So we took that, got the information, took it back to fed it back said right, this is what you've said. So therefore, because you've said it, you own it. And now we've got to do something about it. Because some of that was obviously derogatory about what they felt the team were doing and what they needed, and all that sort of stuff. And then we took it on from there. And slowly but surely started forming this new culture got rid of some of the players who we thought weren't the ones we wanted, some went because they're out of contract went elsewhere. And then we bought players in and we thought we'd give us a renewed energy. And it worked.
Paul Barnett 23:15
I'm tempted to ask you about those fragile egos. And whether you've got any particular philosophy or thoughts on dealing with them? Well,
Sean Dyche 23:24
it's not easy yet again, the fine line I personally I don't use XSplit is that players very often, I certainly don't call them names. Never, I've never called a player name as in a derogatory name. It's not my thing that I used to get that and mostly why you call them in, and I'm not that you can call me what you want, but not that. So I've never done that, I'd usually talk to him. There was three ways I used to work, it was talk, talk, talk, then I push, push, push, and if they still aren't wanting to do it, then I'll drag it out, drag them, I'll just literally drag them to where they need to be until they just recognize the fact. Right, okay, I was missing the point there. And if they can't do any three, then they have to go. You got to get them out because they're just going to suck the life out of everything. You know what I mean? Mood Hoover's, as we call them, they're just going to suck the life out of everything. So usually in thirds, I mean, it's a massive generalization. You go into a club a third or with you straight away. So I think right new manager, new ideas, maybe been outside that within pressure, a third, are we sitting on the fence a little bit? Not sure, which is why he's gonna go, they get 30 everything shipped straightaway, you ship manager ship, ship, ship, ship ship. That's the way it goes. Usually, in my experience, both as a player coach and a manager, that's been my experience of groups. So I use that as a very general rule of thumb, but that's what I use, I think, right? That's probably how we're gonna get it. And then if we can get the bottom third to push into the middle and the middle into the top, then you win in the back[PB8]
Paul Barnett 24:40
show. And what's fascinating, I think, to all non-sporting people about your story, and the Burnley story is and I'm going to include Watford in that as well. You had a period of awkward we had some great success. There examples of less resourced organizations, taking on bigger competitors and outperforming them and competing against more resourced competitors is something all of us face every day. So I wanted to sort of ask you What have you learned about motivation and mindset, when it comes to competing against more resourced organizations or teams,
Sean Dyche 25:10
we sort of worked on the idea of reality really, you know, positive realities, as I call it. So I never be asked the team on stand in front of when you play Mansi and got these little crap lads, so that we know these are proper players. These are proper, proper players. But if we can make the game about us, if we can make it uncomfortable, we can make it feel like it's not their kind of format a game, then that just knocks them out of kilter. And if we knock them out of kilter, do a few get a bit disgruntled, and they make it feels different, it feels awkward. And we tried to use that kind of feeling amongst a group. And then it was like build that mentally. And what about that one? That is the one What about that game when you do beat and what about that feeling about that? How good does that feel? So we kind of I mean, the bit one of the best accolades were[PB9] being given. I remember Pep Guardiola he was waxing lyrical about all the teams, we went to Man City, and they played good football. And he won five nil Obviously, every time which he did, eventually against us. But the first few seasons, he used to say go into burners, like, like go to the dentist, and I was loving it. And so that was it. I'm absolutely loving that it was like the biggest compliment of that I've probably ever been given by someone of his prowess. But I actually are better a few times we have a laugh about some of the stuff that was a compliment, because he's got it. He's basically, it's hard, it's awkward, it's uncomfortable. And and when you build that mentality, it becomes a bit of a badge of honor.[PB10]
And then all of a sudden, I mean, some of the things we've laughed at, you know, down the road, so you'll know some days, but we got his tag about this Hardy team and they're tough and all that you'll have to look at our bookings now. sendings off they're like the lowest season they were like the lowest in the Premier League and we used to laugh. He signs the players you soft does any danger of actually getting stuck any danger late in the global. They're nasty. They're rough and tough. And you got the referees bite into it and all that and you go what are you talking about? The game the game now is that soft does game ever honestly, I mean, it's bizarre how soft football is now. And yet we were these rough tape and all they do is make us laugh. We just go. I mean, I've never I've never told the press release off the ship. I thought that collateral thing that we're tough and hardy. I mean, it's really amusing to me. Sometimes you just think you have nothing better to write about and similar to an drivel about how tough this team are. You don't have to look at the bookings. You have to look at sendings there was a longest one and then Nathan Collins got set up for Brentford. That's right. And that was like a you know, bought someone down. No, no settings offered to send no sends off a bad tackle 100 games or something over 100 games, and yet when it's hard to but we used to wear ourselves being the staff used to be used to read it, or we used to hear it we used to absolutely wet ourselves. And then the opposing manager be telling the world is hard team they shouldn't be allowed to do. They shouldn't be allowed to play. So we don't want ourselves laughing. We like to soft this game, probably the softest sport probably in the world. And you go like they make it out like these. These people are running around hurting people. It was the most brilliant thing.
Paul Barnett 27:58
I think it's the pair of mindset, Shawn, I think that's what it was. They were reacting to that.
Sean Dyche 28:04
It's very clear within the spell that we didn't spell it. We used it. Yeah. Again, when you go in, we started on about or I started out being in these teams and how are you fine? Well, it's Well, we certainly didn't as well it would go right. They want to think that they will deliver the best we can with it. But I think some of their joking about it came out of energy. I mean, we I remember we'd be loving to talk Man City. And it was three days after Newcastle we've got three, three, and we've got three three in Newcastle but then 118k As a team, and three days like no two days later was over the Christmas period we went to man say that 120k got a tutor were to kneel down at halftime. And we went down that season. But let's say now it weren't for lack of effort. I mean, the players were unbelievable. So that's another weapon by seem simple. But you can find a way of our work in a team until they just go oh my goodness, these never stop. And that's a good weapon. That is I mean, it's not easy to get that mindset applies to work constantly for 95 minutes. But if you can get it, it's a real weapon matters.
Paul Barnett 29:00
Shawn, can I take a bit of a sidestep? And I hope this isn't a problematic question. But in 2020, there was that banner flying across the ground. I'm not going to repeat what it said. And I think it's necessary. But some people considered it a racist message and your response was pretty, you were pretty forthright. You stood up to the fans, you took questions and you got positive and negative feedback for it. But it must have been a really strong learning for you. And I'm wondering what it taught you about dealing with potentially ethically challenging issues?
Sean Dyche 29:30
Well, I think it was, I think it was tough for everyone. I think that that whole period was tough for everyone. It ended up being a real positive for everyone. Obviously, it's highlighted so much in the power the wave of power that's come after that in such a positive way. I mean, it was just it was just surreal. Really because you tried to focus on the game. Don't forget,
I'll tell you the hardest part about football and I don't want to go too much into this but you know, generalizing because there's lots of incidents of what's going on, but you're now being questioned about Like things that have nothing to do with the game, it's really, really difficult. And then certain people are now questioning their motives. Why don't they know about this? And why don't they know about that? And why to at the end of the day, the football coaches or football managers, so there's some extreme things can happen around the football game, but they can't know everything, then some time to go well, okay, well, what view are you given about what's your depth of knowledge on these things, to at least give them a chance to get some knowledge before you start sort of digging into them and go deep about their their knowledge base, tricky in football management. Now, there's a lot goes on in football now and a lot of things outside of trying to win a game that the manager seemingly is now going to be an expert on. And I think some of it's a little bit unfair to be honest, you know, some of it's a little bit out there. I think sometimes,
Paul Barnett 30:45
it didn't stop you stepping into it, though. You seemed very in control when you spoke about it, but you didn't seem to be shirking or
Sean Dyche 30:51
stepping back from I think everyone spoke really well about it, I think in the sense that it was unacceptable. Everyone agreed that we have to park it though because you know, that weird thing about coverage you know, and give too much coverage Do you could you always advertisement, so you like don't don't give too much coverage. So let's just park it as quickly but not in that way that you're parking it because it's not serious. Brandon's got right, can we focus on the real good stuff, I've done so much work on that sort of stuff. And as as as as the game, obviously, the kind of a football. So yeah, a lot of work done by so many so many. And but you asked to voice it, not just myself, then me was captain and other players got asked. And then in a strange kind of wait, a very positive effect, the negative beginning, the wave of positivity that came from that actually, it really bought it on from everyone and everyone, right, that is clearly unacceptable. That's not part of what we believe it's not part of what the club leaves, it's not part of the majority of people believe around that area. And it really bought a powerful here of positivity actually. So that was the good thing. And pushing pushing the new voices of what's going on since then, I think,
Paul Barnett 31:57
Shawn, you've been hugely generous with your time. And we, we've been talking for about an hour. And I think we go for another hour, at least if we had a couple of beers. But maybe I just finished with one last question, because I know you've had a pub named after you. And you've had a huge hand in developing the great facilities that are now at Burnley. But beyond the physical things, when you think about legacy, when you hope to define what it is that you've left behind? How would you describe that legacy? What do you want it to be?
Sean Dyche 32:25
I don't want to get too over the top with it. So when you're asking me about my own situation, but
I think that the easiest thing for me easiest answer was when I went in there and my interview about the team, so a lot of managers, they were gonna do this done that I said, the one thing I'll guarantee they'll be sweating the shirt. And I think hard work is often under everything of success and all successes. And I think if anyone would ever say what did he give underneath everything, I'd say he gave his lot I gave a lot to what we do. I got my lot my hard working work ethic, which was preached the players got it myself. And then hopefully some key core values, respect in a pride that have kind of personality with it hard work ethic, as I said, So some key core values. I'd like to think that only stood for something when I was there. And hopefully some of them will keep in the future.[PB11]
I know things change. And I know people will bring their own methods there and all that. But I'd like to think that some of the key core values about things that were important to me behind the scenes, we get loads of feedback about the conduct of the team. We didn't until recently the new owners wanting to start tracking and security. We never traveled security anywhere apart. When going to Istanbul we were advised to with a team were open, that we'd see kids at airports that maybe write emails inside a maze in your players, Team hotels and say you're your favorite team by mile the way your players are with the staff. I mean a lot to me, because that's not easy. And I'm not blaming football, it's always changing. We all know lives change the way people conduct themselves. But that meant a lot to me the way employers conduct themselves when they handled themselves on behalf of what they were what the team were on what the club were so things like that. I think more than that feel as much as anything would rub off I think and just believe Nigel believe because we're the first season I went to all we were done I thought we're gonna get relegated we got promoted. So just the unbelief to go and be successful
Paul Barnett 34:15
belief, good behavior, sweat on the shirt. It's probably not a bad place to end. So
Sean Dyche 34:20
it's not about style. It's not about based work. Now,
Paul Barnett 34:23
it's not shown I can't thank you enough for your time tonight. It's been a cracking interview and I wish you all the best for whatever adventure lies ahead of you next
34:31
time.