Self Doubt lesson Final

Tue, May 23, 2023 9:01PM • 32:17

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

self doubt, coaches, athletes, doubt, work, people, learning, won, great, fact, builds, leader, talk, olympic gold medal, conversations, feel, helping, play, deal, good

SPEAKERS

Paul Barnett, Eddie Bolger, Sue Enquist, Dwayne Nestor, Jon Deeble, Ben Ryan, Ric Charlesworth, Gareth Baber, David Parkin, Neil Craig, Andy King, Olaf Lange, Mark Robinson, Brenda Kirkpatrick, Jim Woolfrey, Felisha Legette Jack, Steve Glasson, Anthony McGrath, Lisa Fallon, Danny Kerry, Pokey Chatman, Hugh McCutcheon

Paul Barnett  00:00

Welcome to the lessons from the great coaches podcast.

00:04

I've learned that you don't do it alone, you learn so many different things from so many different coaches. That's an elite learning environment.

00:13

How you deal with how to be resilient, how important it is to infuse joy in the process of learning. To be a

00:20

good candidate, you've got to do more than you take. What an interesting way it is to be a leader.

Paul Barnett  00:29

My name is Paul Barnett, and you are listening to the great coach's podcast, where we explore leadership through the lens of high performance sport, by interviewing great coaches from around the world, to try and find ideas to help all of us lead our teams better. We started this podcast because we wanted to have better conversations with our families around the dinner table. In a social media world, where the goal was often to be the star of the show. We wanted to change the conversation and talk more about selflessness, leadership and responsibility. And the people we knew who best exhibited these qualities were great sports coaches. As the podcast has grown, the great coaches we've interviewed have shared so much insight and wisdom that we decided to create episodes dedicated entirely to the lessons that have resonated with us the most. Today's episode is on the topic of self doubt, and it features audio quotes from a wide selection of men and women from around the world. The lessons from the great coaches podcast in 1978, my parents moved us from England to Australia in search of a better life. Since then, I've moved with my own family to four different countries over 16 years. Each move is exciting. But at the same time, there was always a sense of doubt wondering if you were doing the right thing. I was recently talking to my mother about her decision to move all those years ago. And she said that the only time she remembered having any doubt was when the paper confirming her visa arrived. And what helped her work through that was the very positive reaction from her friends, when she told them that she was moving to Australia. This got me wondering about self doubt, and what the great coaches had to say about it. So I searched back through the interviews, and found advice ranging from self talk diaries to mantras and visualizations. And after listening to them, what struck me was how normalizing self doubt and building routines to deal with it is the key way to managing it so that it doesn't derail your performance. I loved putting this episode together, I found it challenging and informative. And I hope you get as much out of it as I did. The starting point on my exploration of self doubt is the legendary coach Rick Charlesworth. Rick has won Olympic gold medals, and coached at the elite level in three different sports. He's also a medical doctor. And so his views are always balanced between the art of people leadership, and the science of human care. And he believes that data is a good thing, and is actually the foundation of all knowledge.

Ric Charlesworth  03:10

No doubt is good. That's normal doubts as it should be. If you think you know the answers, then you're probably tricking yourself or getting yourself and you may be wrong. And so doubt is if you like the foundation of all knowledge, it makes us curious, we wonder about whether or not we've got it right, we explore our motivations, we look at our solutions, and we we try to develop ways of doing things that are foolproof. So that's a good thing. And we all have it. I mean, I remember listening to Roger Federer, when he was undoubtedly the best tennis player in the world before the Australian Open would have been more than a decade ago. And he was saying I'm gonna how I'm going to go in the final gonna be very hot, I don't know whether my preparation has been good enough beforehand is not going as well as, and here's this guy. And he won the final the next day, preparing himself for that, but he's got that everybody's got him, the best player in the world has them. But those apprehensions are also one of the things that fires you to compete. And

Paul Barnett  04:15

Danny Carey coached the England women's hockey team to win an Olympic gold medal. And he emphasized the fact that helping athletes with their self doubt, or as he referred to them, as their limiting beliefs, was a key part of the head coach role. And in fact, was the basis of some of the most important conversations he has had with athletes.

Danny Kerry  04:38

This is a underreported or not emphasized enough aspect of the role of a coach. I think the norm is that people have not been to these heady places is not normal for people to to have been let go to the Olympics, let alone medal in Olympics. And so working against people's sort of limiting beliefs about what they're capable of is quite a key part of our role. Now, some athletes come jam packed with belief that they can do it. But my experience in the UK anyway is, that's not the norm, the norm is full of self doubt, first of all normalizing that self doubt, and almost talking to the fact that probably the majority of gold medalists or Olympic level have have all been in the same place and normalizing it, exploring with the athletes where their self limiting beliefs have come from, and whether they actually based in fact, and often than not, and then often sort of looking at some of those athletes, role models and maybe perhaps exploring some of their lives and where they've come from and what they've worked with and against over time, and how they've achieved through essentially faith. So sort of breaking down with the athlete, why they think they look the way they do, is it based, in fact, looking at examples, almost any example in high performance sport where people have sort of had to struggle, and often that struggles with their own self doubts, and therefore normalizing in the life of an athlete. And that's the root of the conversations and where they tend to sit again, we have good psychologists working with our program. But often as a head coach, you know, some of the most important conversations I have with athletes are are around some of their self limiting beliefs.

Paul Barnett  06:22

head coaches have the ability to deal with doubt and anxiety in a way that others perhaps don't. And this is one of the most important attributes they possess. And in retrospect, I think it's why I also find them such interesting leaders to study. Here is Neil Craig, another coach, who has worked at the elite level across three different sports, talking about the ability of elite level coaches to handle self doubt. Because,

Neil Craig  06:49

you know, people think that these coaches are getting into these roles that are bullet proof that they don't have self doubt that they don't get anxious. They don't have fears words, they do, they actually do. And it's part of the job, but they have a capacity to to still function under those sorts of pressures.

Paul Barnett  07:09

When it comes to dealing with the self doubt of the people you are leading, a good place to start is by acknowledging what they are feeling and exploring it with the person not trying to dismiss it or downplay it. Here is World Cup winning cricket coach, Mark Robinson, explaining his views on using this approach.

Mark Robinson  07:28

It's about you trying to help mold environments and use your resources, your the staff, it's my confidence. And really, I think I learned something really, really important on most of the girls as well, I've got great lot built in either their negativity, which, which would be the opposite, where sometimes I would naturally look. And that taught me a lot, actually, sometimes by not being empathetic. So my natural approach would be, it wasn't that bad. You didn't ball that badly. You've got two wickets, you might have been more expensive one, but it wasn't that too bad beyond that positive approach will allow actually, that's not always helpful, especially to some personality traits. And actually, by denying and their negativity, you are causing more problems, what what I needed to be doing there was not arguing against the reality. Okay, so you felt that what we're going to do to make it better the next day, and move them on that way, as opposed to almost having this argument about how bad it was. So that taught me a lot.

Paul Barnett  08:32

As you listen to the person, you can help by reminding them of the context around their performance, and where they are on the journey towards their goal. This was something that Gareth Baber, who coached Fiji to the Olympic gold medal in Rugby Sevens discussed with us.

Gareth Baber  08:49

The first year was difficult, but it was also objective about that. And I think that one of the biggest things that you probably take from that in terms of the self doubt is, again, coming back to probably that I talked about earlier, which was perspective, the maturity of personality, the understanding of your journey, and where you might be in that and what you're developing and learning not solely fixated and obsessed with every single kickin pass and drop of a ball, that you're able to create some perspective and objectivity around that and be able to then relate that to the players with a consistency. And you do play different roles in different contexts as the leader of that from when a mentor to a motivator to a teacher to her to a psychologist and in all that you're sort of seeing what each individual needs but ultimately remaining consistent yourself with your delivery, your personality, your characteristics, because ultimately, you've got to give that relationship which is to me the bit that gets that player to the point Learning where he is able to become self aware and produce his potential, then there's a test and the challenge of you and your characters as a leader.

Paul Barnett  10:12

Keeping the context in perspective, was also something pokey Chapman, who has coached championship basketball teams in America and Russia spoke about it, she couched it in terms of doing a self scout on yourself, to measure what you might be feeling against the feedback that you have been given.

Pokey Chatman  10:31

You'd have to do a self scout on yourself in terms of your expertise in the game, where it can I mean, an authentic real true deep dive into that. And then once you do that, and you measure it against what feedback you got, I think that makes you it makes it easier to deal with, whether it's beneficial, not just the exercise of that, it's going to make you feel like okay, this is what I can do. And you're always gonna find something right that you can do better. I mean, hell, sometimes you might make it up just so you know, you're working on it. But then there's some times where you're going to be happy, put my head on my pillow at night, I did what you asked me to do, to the best of my ability involve everyone. And it's not about being callous or pushing to the side, it's about being at peace.

Paul Barnett  11:16

Hugh McCutcheon has coached volleyball teams to gold and silver Olympic medals. And he talked about helping people deal with their self doubt, by working with them to reframe their words. Here, he gives an example of how he works with the words of right and wrong.

Hugh McCutcheon  11:34

I think more than ever, and in our world of comparison that everybody chooses to engage in the narrative is inside your head is more important than if so first and foremost, we understand that most of these athletes have bought into this false narrative that that somehow anything less than perfection is not worth celebrating. And even when they win the race or the middle or whatever. But if they did something wrong, then somehow those required moments of self flagellation, or whatever we're going to call it so getting them to understand the importance of celebrating the successes, and allowing maybe the coaches to bring to attention, some of their inefficiencies is a good place to start. But also, just that very word right there. We don't talk about right or wrong in our gym, we talk about effective and efficient methods were efficient is connected to biomechanical efficiency, which lends to repeatability and all kinds of things, right, but but just that idea of like, Hey, can we just see outcomes, for example, as outcomes and not assign an emotion to it or a value to it, but just see it as information? And understand that that probably allows better learning and more importantly, more effective learning? Whereas if you get into that whole cycle of I'm frustrated? Well, yeah, I mean, don't get angry get better, right? I mean, when you're frustrated, you're not in a rational space, you're not able to take information and process it make changes, you're just pissed. That's the deal, right? Can you can you get off of the rather self indulgent thing of like, kind of, hey, I'm so angry because I'm not getting it. And it's no, no, okay? Yeah, change is hard. So just accept that lean into it, and just choose to see it for what it is grasses, green sky is blue, you did this. And we want you to do that simple.

Mark Robinson  13:23

Well, simple, say,

Paul Barnett  13:26

language is spoken out loud, or to yourself, plays an important role in dealing with self doubt. Basketball Coach, Brenda Kirkpatrick, brown builds on the ideas from you by talking about the use of positive language, but with the caveat, that it must be authentic, or else it can sound and feel like cheerleading.

Brenda Kirkpatrick  13:48

The more you internalize something or hear it, whether you're saying it to yourself, or you're internalizing something, that someone is saying to you, you believe it, sometimes you have to guard against that. Because if you're constantly hearing negativity, you have to have a filter there. But we try to talk positively to our kids. And I do think there are there certainly pointing to one person would be difficult. But sometimes I don't know if you've heard coaches say that coaches believe in their athletes more than their athletes believe in themselves. And so we want to constantly be building them up and use language that's positive. Now you don't want to blow smoke, as we say, you don't want to fluff up or flatter. Because people can see through flattery. They know when you're not telling the truth. And so this person has to be able to back that up in terms of their work ethic and what they're bringing to the table. Not perfectly but there has to be some substance there.

Paul Barnett  14:42

Sue inquest is one of the most amazing people we have interviewed on the podcast, her hard won insights on leadership, and in particular, dealing with your own inner voice, a universal, inspiring and pragmatic. Here. She talks about the way we choose to answer to our own inner voice, being the key to the way we deal with self doubt.

Sue Enquist  15:05

Well, first, let me define it so everyone can really understand this is from a scientific background, right? This is scientific evidence that we know that the conscious brain is just a tape recorder of our thoughts. We also know that thoughts that enter from the subconscious, we can't control, we can't control those, those thoughts come to the forefront, unannounced, sometimes uninvited. And that's what I call that weak voice. That weak voice is the one that has the doubt the weak voice is the one that says play it safe. The weak voice is the one that says you're not good enough. So I've had to deal with that weak voice, that you're not good enough. You're not strong enough, you're not smart enough. You're learning agility isn't where it needs to be. And then I learned and science tells us this. What we actively do to answer that weak voice is the secret sauce. If we allow the thoughts to come in, and to pound us down, and we don't answer every thought, with an affirmation, a true fact, evidence that you're capable of doing it, or evidence that you're ready to leap, you will find yourself playing inside and losing your enthusiasm and your optimism. And I call it being a stubborn optimist. The stubborn part says good stubborn says I'm not going to give in to that weak voice. Good. Stubborn, says I do see all the work you did Monday through Friday, that inventory that allows you to cross over that bridge to say, I'm ready in this moment. And to me, everything emanates from those two voices in your head and the awareness of when you're in your weaker your strong voice. Because the awareness allows you to answer the call of that weak voice because we don't have to worry about when the thoughts are coming in just warm and fuzzy. It's like man, hang on and yell up because I'll always good in your brain. But today because of the instability because of all the uncertainty, doubt seeps in and it's winning the conversation and you're constantly having over 60,000 thoughts a day. So this conversations going on who's winning the conversation? Who's getting the last word? May your strong voice always get the last word? And I often tell people, would you ever date your inner voice? And this idea would I ever date my inner voice? Whoo. That helps build awareness around your strong and your weak voice.

Paul Barnett  17:32

Anthony McGraw, played cricket for England, and now has won the English county championship as a coach. He takes his views one step further by explaining how he uses a self talk diary to change his inner dialogue and raise his level of self awareness.

Anthony McGrath  17:50

I think I started making a diary probably halfway through my career. And it was amazing how many negative thoughts I had as a as a batsman, until I started writing things down and thinking geez, this is this is terrible. I'm just thinking, subconsciously, so many negative things. So there's a couple of players that Essex that we introduced that kind of thing too. And again, that's really helped them develop that decision making the self awareness how I feel in certain situations. So something like a self taught diary can help

Paul Barnett  18:23

you. When it comes to reflecting on self doubt, though, there is a word of caution from soccer coach Lisa Fallon, who explains that you need to guard against overthinking.

Lisa Fallon  18:35

So, in terms of my inner critic, I, I am self critical. I do that and I but I'm also I always try to put context on critiquing. So I always try to qualify it so that I don't overthink, I used to overthink a lot. And that can inhibit because then you start to think of the what ifs What if you stop being in the present, which is where you need to be you start thinking about things that may or may not happen and you're like, it takes your focus away from where you need to be.

Paul Barnett  19:09

There have been other coaches though, who have gone beyond the use of words to deal with self doubt, and talked about action as a means to deal with what you are feeling. Andy King is a surf coach, who amongst many athletes, has coached world champion, Mick Fanning. Here he talks about the use of movement and activity to get rid of the doubt that you may be experiencing.

Andy King  19:34

So I believe if you've got that in a critical there's something in there going on. You don't meditate and try and get rid of it through birth, you get rid of it, and channel it through through action. I'm fascinated for more on the other part. Like if you've got that inner critic and it creates that tension or anxiety in these, these words that you hear are more fascinating from again, log when you talk about the animal world. It's like it could be someone gets hit by a lion. They don't see There institchu Over like you watching them, they'll twitch and shake it off. And they'll go back and feed on that same field. So there's just, there's an expansion of energy that has to get out when those feelings are there. So instead of sitting in them and trying to figure it out for breath, I'm more curious about them doing something active.

Paul Barnett  20:18

visualization can also help, especially if you take the time to reflect on some of the achievements who have behind you. In fact, some of the coaches have talked to us about helping their athletes put together summaries of their greatest hits, to help them when their competence slips, a doubt arises. David Park and is an Australian rules football coach, and academic. And this was one of the things that he talked to us

David Parkin  20:44

about. So reminding yourself, and I guess we say where do you get the first good performance, and that's a problem. We can use visualized, taste and claw. If we've got something to visualize that at an AFL level with with Nick see at the moment, for instance, he has produced some wonderful performances, which he could visualize, and it doesn't have to be on tape, but he can think about the confidence that we all get by what we've done in the past certainly helps us with future difficulties and mountains to climb and problems to solve and all that sort of stuff.

Paul Barnett  21:26

I find coaches in combat sports, like boxing, fascinating. They are able to help their athletes build the confidence and technical skills necessary to step into an environment where they can be physically and emotionally hurt, if not scarred. One of the themes they talk about when it comes to dealing with self doubt, is the power of routines, especially when it comes to pre fight and the walk to the ring. Here is German national team boxing coach Eddie Bolger.

Eddie Bolger  21:56

Look, it's different for different people, different athletes. At this stage, the the level that we're working with now is elite level. And they've really made that walk a lot they've made that walk to the ring many, many times. And the thing we tried to do is instill a process, a good process that we've done all the time, you know, and they try to repeat this good process that has worked for him before. And this gives them a little bit of focus. They warm up at a special time, each individual might have a little bit, there might be one minute there might be five minutes in the difference. But you try to instill this process. And the regularity of this brings comes and brings brings brings a sense of normality.

Paul Barnett  22:42

All I Flanger is a basketball coach who has worked in Europe and America. And he builds on this idea of rituals as a way of dealing with self doubt.

Olaf Lange  22:52

I will learn that ignoring it is not helping it not expressing is not helping it at some point, there has to be an initial phase where you, as an athlete, admit the fact that you have I think a lot of people have it. But they're never it's an undercurrent in their day to day business. But they they don't dare admit it, I think looking at it admitting it is the first step to go beyond it. So I think and in some cases, even writing it out and then burning the paper or throwing it out of the window or wrapping it up. I think there has to be some kind of ritual to it. Whether that is physical or mental, that really helps. The second thing is then you have to work at your craft, and then realize what you're doing well, rather than what you're doing wrong. I think we helped this process with specific video sessions we had and specific focuses we have because I think that the German the German for sure the German nature that was a Freud, the German nature but the the human nature is always to look more for the negative or for what's wrong rather than for what's right. And I think it shifted perspective, aided with especially nowadays where we have technology way more available, and what play does well and also have other players teammates telling them what they do well, really kickstart could process and then eventually it's just learning to stay in the moment. I think that's a big one, especially when it comes to competition, staying in the moment and seeing what's right in front of you, rather than thinking about what may or may not be going on.

Paul Barnett  24:48

Another way to preempt any sense of self doubt is to work through the different scenarios that might await you and plan for how you might respond. Here is gold medal winning Rugby Sevens code I'm Ben Ryan.

Ben Ryan  25:02

So I had absolutely no doubt we were going to win an Olympic gold medal. And that might sound like I'm being a bit cocky, but it was based on competencies and knowing that everything was in our control. And we'd gone through so many different scenarios of what ifs and what could happen. And it felt still felt like we had a robust enough group to deal with whatever got thrown at us. And

Paul Barnett  25:23

as a leader, one of your fundamental roles will be to help people with their doubt. And as basketball coach, Felicia legit jack points out, in order to do this, you must stay focused on the fact that your certainty will need to be greater than that of

Jim Woolfrey  25:39

the athlete. And

Felisha Legette Jack  25:41

so I think young women have it worse than most. Because I think that we're pretty smart. I think that we're pretty compassionate. I think that we were undervalued. And therefore we undervalue ourselves. And what I think is, the most valued thing I can bring as a coach is to share with all of the, the whole kid the broken kid that the last kid is the ability to look in their eyes and let them know I see them, and that they matter. And from there, we'll figure out the rest of it. And I got a quote here, I keep next to me, it's it my certainty, it must be greater than everyone's doubts. And that's very important for young people, because there's so much doubt, and young women, that if you share with them, that they are the best ever, I see them your matter, they fly and they flourish. And, and I just really enjoy the fact that I look back at all my players that I've ever coached that I think one kid has lost her way. And I mean, I'm talking about all the way back to Hofstra. And so that's what I value the most is the fact that I can help people find and feel their value. Even on days, I feel broken.

Paul Barnett  27:02

And with the need for you as the leader, to portray such certainty, it's important that you surround yourself with people who can help sustain you when your own self belief might start to falter. Here is World Champion lawn bowls Coach Steve Glasson, talking about how he deals with this.

Steve Glasson  27:22

It's having those deep conversations. And sometimes it might be actual game that's in some it might be something outside, it could be golf in the desert marriage or work or something like that, that is influencing some negative thinking. I mean, I go through it myself, I question what I do regularly. And these guys instill confidence in me as well. So it's a big circle. Really, if that deteriorates, well, then you basically go back to the drawing board and start again and work out what does work and what doesn't work. And we'll all make mistakes. And as you correctly said, I've been fortunate, I've had great highs, and I've had disappointments through my career. But I think that's all an entree to doing this job that I can relate to that and understand that it's not perfect, but the world's not perfect. What we do is not perfect. We haven't got perfect staff, or coaches or players. And that's a wonderful challenge. And I think trying to get the best out of individuals understanding that we've all got a role to play in this. And sharing is really important.

Paul Barnett  28:13

However, while doubt is a natural phenomena, as a leader, you must be on the watch out for when this develops into a situation where the individual begins to lower the expectations they have on themselves. Here is baseball coach John debo explaining this.

Jon Deeble  28:31

I think everyone I think we all at some point in our life have self doubt. And I think that separates the good ones from the great ones. And again, the communication for me is what I've always gone back to when I think you have a problem with somebody's when you expect more out of them than they expect out of themselves. And that's part of life and that happens a lot. But to me, I always my default, always communication that sit down and talk and be open and get them to be open to you find a lot about people by sitting down and talking. For the last word

Paul Barnett  29:03

on dealing with self doubt. I have chosen Dwayne Nestor, a rugby union coach from Australia. Dwayne was the second interview we ever released. And he said something at the time that has always stayed with me. He said, I look at self confidence, like a suit of armor. It's a wonderful image that cuts right through the overthinking that many great coaches talk about.

Jim Woolfrey  29:31

You've mentioned self doubt a couple of times today, what are your top tips in dealing with self doubt?

Dwayne Nestor  29:39

Oh my gosh, I go back to that do the work like really do the work because doing the work builds the confidence and I look at self confidence as it's like a it's like a suit of armor like a chainmail armor, you know, when you start putting that chainmail together and you're trying to knit it together. It's pretty loose. So any arrows that come in which I relate too as self doubt, they get through the armor and they pierce you and it hurts. But the more sessions you do, every single session you do and you take you take the learning out of each session, it just knits that armor closer and closer and it becomes denser and denser. And you get to the point where you're wearing this suit that doesn't allow you to have that self doubt.

Paul Barnett  30:23

We hope you enjoyed our episode on self doubt, and found one or two things that you can bring to your own dinner table, locker room, or boardroom table for discussion. The key lessons I've taken away on the topic of self doubt from our interview guests, our self doubt is a good thing. If it propels you to be curious and look for new ways of doing things. And dealing with the self doubt of your team will be one of the key things that you will need to do as the head coach. Don't dismiss people's doubt, acknowledge it and explore it with the individual. To help people deal with self doubt, you can reframe their language into more positive phrases. Explore the language they use to express their self doubt, and respond in a positive way. Remind them of the context surrounding their performance and where they are on their journey towards their goal. review previous successes, visualize future performances, or use action to help quiet in their negative voice and move them forward. It's also possible to preempt the onset of self doubt through specific rituals or routines to plan ahead for moments that might trigger doubt and to put in the work to help you create a suit of armor to protect you against self doubt derailing your performance. Here are the great coaches podcast. We are always trying to reflect and learn so please let us know if you have any feedback. Just like trainers who said was a great listen. No other podcasts like it looking forward to the next episodes. Thanks Karina has the interaction with the people around the world who listened to gives us great energy. And so if you have any feedback or comments, please let us know all the details on how to connect with us or in the shownotes or on our website. Great coaches podcast.com